Clothies forced into Tailoring

[Astross]

I love how blizzard has essentially forced all clothies to pick up tailoring and make your gear or you are going to get blown away on the damage/heal meters.

I have been herb/alch forever and have always enjoyed the professions, but now since the release of BC and all the new tailored epics...a dps caster(mage) as myself is forced to go tailoring to keep up with the raids damage output.

I have since dropped alchy to pick up tailoring and I will admit that the epics are very nice and awesome to have...but I can't wait to get some tier5 so I can drop tailoring and go back to my beloved alchemy.

Why does blizzard want all clothies to be tailors?

Why are tailored epics so overpowered that they practically force us to drop our current professions?

How many of you guys have dropped your professions in order to make those tailored epics?

[Magikhat]

Because they want us to spend gold and it gives an option to those who dont raid or even have time for 5 mans.

[Dark Matter]

My Priest is Herb / Alch and is going Scryer.

I miss out on the Primal Mooncloth gear, but frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

I'm playing him, and I decide what he does.

DM

[Astross]

@ magikhat: Why should someone who doesn't put forth the time and effort into raiding have far superior gear than someone who can just craft an epic in one day? Anybody can craft an epic...not everyone can get 9 or 24 other people organized into a group, then learn each boss fight, and farm those bosses for weeks until you win the roll on the the drop. It would make more sense to me if these tailored epics were at least equal to Karazhan gear...making these epics far superior than tier4 just makes no sense to me. Every clothie I know puts their tier4 in the bank because their tailored epics are way better.



@Dark Matter: If you don't want to have the best possible +healing/damage pre-tier5 no one is stopping you. But I for one like to have the best gear I can possibly obtain...and if that means dropping a profession to get it...then I guess that's what I have to do. I'm just saying that if you want the best +healing/damage gear, you pretty much have to have the tailoring profession, which makes no sense to me.

[Steamboat]

I dropped Jewelcrafting for tailoring. But I'm not mad about it, I'm glad to have gear this good sooner rather than later.

[rubberdubbie]

So you can't get the best gear from drops in instances? I'm a bit confused as my healer is a herbalist/alchemist. Is primal mooncloth one of those things you can craft and then it's immediately soulbound to you?

[Steamboat]

Is primal mooncloth one of those things you can craft and then it's immediately soulbound to you?

There is a healing set made from Primal Mooncloth, I don't know the name. But anyway yes it's soulbound when you make it. If it's anything like the Frozen Shadoweave or Spellfire tailored sets, it is better than most T4 gear. You can still be a competent healer without it, but you will probably be outhealed by anyone who has it.

[rubberdubbie]

There is a healing set made from Primal Mooncloth, I don't know the name. But anyway yes it's soulbound when you make it. If it's anything like the Frozen Shadoweave or Spellfire tailored sets, it is better than most T4 gear. You can still be a competent healer without it, but you will probably be outhealed by anyone who has it.

Thanks for the info. Bad news for me I guess. Now I have to drop either alch or herbalism and pick up tailoring. Anyone have a suggestion on which one to drop? I was thinking of dropping herbalism as that's pretty easy to level.

[DraedynLei]

I have since dropped alchy to pick up tailoring...

Just curious to why you dropped alchy instead of herb considering it is probably much harder to level alchy.

To your original question, I am not sure. I was already a tailor before the patch so I was not affected. One of the reasons probably is that Blizz wanted to make the crafting professions viable at max level. Otherwise everyone would be enchanters and alchies considering their goods are always used. If crafted stuff became obsolete after you hit max level, why would you bother leveling it in the first place considering how expensive it is. This philosophy is being continued if you've seen the epic patterns dropping in the later end game raids like BT.

[rubberdubbie]

Just curious to why you dropped alchy instead of herb considering it is probably much harder to level alchy.




Maybe this is his/her only toon and herbalism is a source of income.

[Magikhat]

@ magikhat: Why should someone who doesn't put forth the time and effort into raiding have far superior gear than someone who can just craft an epic in one day? Anybody can craft an epic...not everyone can get 9 or 24 other people organized into a group, then learn each boss fight, and farm those bosses for weeks until you win the roll on the the drop. It would make more sense to me if these tailored epics were at least equal to Karazhan gear...making these epics far superior than tier4 just makes no sense to me. Every clothie I know puts their tier4 in the bank because their tailored epics are way better.





What you are saying is that farming mass amounts of gold does not require time like raids does? Farming gold requires time too. Its just easier for a casual person to sit for 40 minutes a day and farm gold than it is for someone to make a commitment from lets say, 5 to 10pm on tuesday and thursday.

I dont think 12 primal manas and 20 primal mooncloths for one piece of PMC can be crafted in one day as well as leveling to 375 tailoring.

Just because someone does not raid does not mean they do not put in their dues. Just because some have lives outside of the game does not mean they did not put as much effort into the game as raiders.

[Magikhat]

and by the way we arent forced into tailoring. I see nothing that says I have to pick tailoring.

[Astross]

Just curious to why you dropped alchy instead of herb considering it is probably much harder to level alchy.


I dropped alchy because I need potions for raiding...I can still farm my potion/elixer mats and just have a guildie make them for me.

Alchy isn't that hard to lvl up so I wasn't worried about that, but having to buy all the herb mats necessary for your raiding elixirs can get very costly. Tailoring takes too much gold to lvl as it is, I couldn't imagine having to buy my herbs also...I'm already broke enough as it is, I needed at least one gathering profession.

[Dark Matter]

I don't feel I have to be the best healer on my server. I am no longer hardcore - I did the raid 5 nights a week - farm 2 nights a week thing for 10 months. Then I stopped playing for 6.

I am not going back to that style of play, so having the 'best' healing gear is not my game goal.

As long as I do enough to keep people up, and we all have fun whilst playing, then I will be happy.

DM

[Astross]

@magikhat: Raiding definetly takes more effort and time than lvling up tailoring and crafting a few epics...Hell I switched over to tailoring this last friday and already almost have the spellfire belt....

Is that fair to someone who has been raiding since BC came out trying to get some tier4 pieces that are inferior?

Crafting the tailoring epics takes hardly no time and all and only requires mind-numbing farming. Anyone can do that....

Not everyone can organize groups of people and learn boss fights week in and week out. Putting forth all kinds of effort and time, not to mention spending tons of gold for repairs and potion/elixirs.

My mom can lvl up tailoring overnight and start farming mats for the tailored epics the next day...

I think the amount of time and effort you put into this game should be rewarded...but instead our rewards (for raiding) is only to be beat by some guy who can craft up an epic over night.

It just makes no sense to me...




And also, I never said you were "forced" to go tailoring...I said you are "practically forced" to go tailoring if you want to keep up with the best possible +damage/healing gear available.

If raid loot was on par with tailored epics I would have no reason to QQ, but i just don't understand why difficult to acquire raid loot is far inferior to crafted items. I understand that not everyone has the time to raid multiple days a week and the casual players need some means of obtaining some decent loot on their own...but you shouldn't expect better gear than the guy who has put forth a lot of time and effort into raiding.

You should be rewarded for the amount of time and effort you put into something...but instead we are putting those rewards in the bank only to be out done by an overnighted crafted epic.

[rgirty]

@magikhat: Raiding definetly takes more effort and time than lvling up tailoring and crafting a few epics...Hell I switched over to tailoring this last friday and already almost have the spellfire belt....

Is that fair to someone who has been raiding since BC came out trying to get some tier4 pieces that are inferior?

Crafting the tailoring epics takes hardly no time and all and only requires mind-numbing farming. Anyone can do that....

Not everyone can organize groups of people and learn boss fights week in and week out. Putting forth all kinds of effort and time, not to mention spending tons of gold for repairs and potion/elixirs.

My mom can lvl up tailoring overnight and start farming mats for the tailored epics the next day...

I think the amount of time and effort you put into this game should be rewarded...but instead our rewards (for raiding) is only to be beat by some guy who can craft up an epic over night.

It just makes no sense to me...




And also, I never said you were "forced" to go tailoring...I said you are "practically forced" to go tailoring if you want to keep up with the best possible +damage/healing gear available.

If raid loot was on par with tailored epics I would have no reason to QQ, but i just don't understand why difficult to acquire raid loot is far inferior to crafted items. I understand that not everyone has the time to raid multiple days a week and the casual players need some means of obtaining some decent loot on their own...but you shouldn't expect better gear than the guy who has put forth a lot of time and effort into raiding.

You should be rewarded for the amount of time and effort you put into something...but instead we are putting those rewards in the bank only to be out done by an overnighted crafted epic.

Your concern is that kara gear is not greater than crafted gear.

Kara = ubrs of tbc. Was ubrs loot better than tier .5? No it was not.

Yet casuals obtained .5 even if they had to get the chest piece from ubrs.

That is the comparison you are drawing.

25 man raids will yield better loot than what can be crafted.

For the casual who has their 3 piece (and it is only 3 pieces, vs 5 or more for other sets) thats the best they will ever get.

You and other raiders will go on to 25 mans, in a few months you'll be in much better gear than those tailored epics. If you choose to get the tailored epics now to get a boost through kara, that is certainly your choice.

With crafted cloth items, you are only talking about 3 pieces.

[Astross]

I just think there is something wrong with the fact that clothies are putting their tier4 in the bank and keeping their tailored epics equiped.

I have no problem with good tailored epic pieces, but when those tailored epic patterns are bought from a vender and can be made practically overnite and are FAR superior than tier4....something needs to be fixed.

I guess they just need to buff the tier4 more...I dunno.

[rgirty]

I just think there is something wrong with the fact that clothies are putting their tier4 in the bank and keeping their tailored epics equiped.

I have no problem with good tailored epic pieces, but when those tailored epic patterns are bought from a vender and can be made practically overnite and are FAR superior than tier4....something needs to be fixed.

I guess they just need to buff the tier4 more...I dunno.


They should call tier 4, a different name it isn't supposed to be superior to the crafted epics. It is just an alternative for those who don't want to craft their items. It isn't quite as good, but with larger raids (25 mans) all the raiders will see much better gear than the casuals in their cloth.

For example, soon raiders will be in the black temple getting their t6 like this:

Robes of the Tempest
Binds when picked up
Chest Cloth
244 Armor
+36 Stamina
+39 Intellect
+31 Spirit
Yellow Socket
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +5 Spell Damage
Durability 100 / 100
Classes: Mage
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves spell hit rating by 13 (1.0%).
Equip: Improves spell critical strike rating by 23 (1.0%).
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 62.

Don't forget the 4 piece bonus:

Increases the damage of your Fireball, Frostbolt, and Arcane Missiles abilities by 5%.

While casuals will be forever on the sideline wearing the following as the best they will ever see.

Spellfire Robe
Binds when picked up
Chest Cloth
178 Armor
+17 Intellect
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Durability 100 / 100
Requires Level 70
Requires Spellfire Tailoring
Equip: Improves spell critical strike rating by 28 (1.3%).
Equip: Increases damage done by Fire spells and effects by up to 72.
Equip: Increases damage done by Arcane spells and effects by up to 72.

Then should the casuals come to the boards and complain that the raiders shouldn't have access to better gear than they do?

Kara was cleared in january, it was the starting point. Tier 4 is just an appetizer of things to come for raiders.

[Astross]

They should call tier 4, a different name it isn't supposed to be superior to the crafted epics. It is just an alternative for those who don't want to craft their items. It isn't quite as good, but with larger raids (25 mans) all the raiders will see much better gear than the casuals in their cloth.



That is just my point....why should tailored epics even be better than tier4...you can buy the pattern from a damn vender for crying out loud and can be made overnite!!

The amount of time and gold it takes to obtain a few pieces of tier4 is a hell of a lot more than crafting some tailored items...and I think you should rewarded for you time and effort, not just put it in the bank to collect dust.

The tailored epics should be a little bit below tier4...this would allow the casuals to get decent items and reward the raiders for their hard work...


and kara does not = ubrs...

I'd say kara is = MC or ZG

heroics = ubrs

[rgirty]

That is just my point....why should tailored epics even be better than tier4...you can buy the pattern from a damn vender for crying out loud and can be made overnite!!

The ammount of time and gold it takes to obtain a few pieces of tier4 is a hell of a lot more than crafting some tailored items...and I think you should rewarded for you time and effort, not just put it in the bank to collect dust.

The tailored epics should be a little bit below tier4...this would allow the casuals to get decent items and reward the raiders for their hard work...

It is the same reason that ubrs gear wasn't better than tier .5. The crafted epics are as good as it is ever going to get.

By your analogy any BoE item should never be any better than a raid item, because any person can farm gold and buy a boe item from the ah. Or go kill a mob and get a random world drop.

All the good epix locked away in dungeons for raiders that are exclusive to them? If you can't raid you can't get great items?

Black Temple/SSC both have better loot than tier 4.

Crafted is better than tier 4 which it should be, tier 5 and tier 6 are what raiders will have very soon. 4 is just to get started, an alternative for people who don't want to craft the epics.

[larissa]

I was a tailor/enchanter before the Burning Crusade, so no 'forcing' for me.

But that said, I normally wear my full Hallowed set, with my other healing gear, I'm probably only about +100/150 healing behind if I were to wear the full Primal Mooncloth set. And I could probably close that gap with a couple of different choices in gear. So yes, the Primal Mooncloth is better, but it's not as earth-shattering as it seems. I only wear the Primal Mooncloth in Heroics because I feel the need to squeeze all the +heal I can out of my gear to succeed as a Discipline Priestess against the huge amounts of damage trash mobs do in them. There was a thread just recently by DrOsmius who is a herbalist/alchemist, who took a good luck at the PMC gear and what he could get elsewhere, and found that for all the time and effort to get the PMC, there was actually not that great a benefit for him.

And I for one couldn't care less about topping Healing meters. So what? The idea is to win through the instance. There is more to being a healer than just straight healing, just as there is more to a damage class than straight damage. But that always seems to be the benchmark we judge others by.

Personally, I'm glad for the sets. It makes Tailoring an actual desired profession, rather than a source of bags and DE material. In all my time as a Tailor, I had only worn one item that I made for any length of time that was actually better than items I was finding, the Robe of Power. The next closest was the Black Mageweave gear, though by the time I could actually wear the darn stuff, it was already outclassed by equal level gear. I probably would have used the Mooncloth Robe, had I actually had the tons of Mooncloth needed for it, the pattern for it, and hadn't found better in Outland. Now I have 3 things that I can actually wear and make use of.

But that being said, if I wasn't a Tailor already, I would probably be very tempted to switch professions to get the tailored set.

Just curious, but how do the weapons and armour of Blacksmithing and Leatherworking compare versus end-game gear?

~~~Larissa

[rgirty]

Larissa, you are correct in your post. PMC is better but its marginal.

The spellfire/fsw sets are far superior to any 5 man blues you will see.

I would also have another look at hallowed vs. pmc. The pmc was buffed and the gap, although not as large as the dps caster versions is considerably more than it was.

[Magikhat]

@magikhat: Raiding definetly takes more effort and time than lvling up tailoring and crafting a few epics...Hell I switched over to tailoring this last friday and already almost have the spellfire belt....

Is that fair to someone who has been raiding since BC came out trying to get some tier4 pieces that are inferior?

Crafting the tailoring epics takes hardly no time and all and only requires mind-numbing farming. Anyone can do that....

Not everyone can organize groups of people and learn boss fights week in and week out.



In my opinion. Raiding does not take more effort. It just requires bigger blocks of time. Raiding is as easy as doing your class duty. The crappiest guilds on my server have fully cleared kara.

Is it fair to give crappy gear to people who dont have time to raid but still pay the same amount per month as the others?

Crafting epix takes no time? Perhaps it takes no time to someone who has enough time to raid karazan but to someone who can play 2 hours a week it is a long haul or to someone who doesent have a level 70 alt with 375 mining/herb.

[Tanitha]

That is just my point....why should tailored epics even be better than tier4...you can buy the pattern from a damn vender for crying out loud and can be made overnite!!

Casual players want to PvP, take part in Battlegrounds and enjoy the game as well. They will miss out on the big raid dungeons, seeing and experiencing all that content and so forth because their time budget does not allow it. This allows casual players access to "similar" gear for the other aspects of the game, while the raiders will STILL progress onwards to earn better and better gear as the higher tiers are released.

Why the jealousy and desire to restrict what casual players can have? I can play for maybe 3 or 4 hours a week. And that's primarily for PvP. What do you think my chances are of getting raid dungeon gear? Squat. Zero. Zip. Nothing. Nada. This gives me the chance to get something. Don't take it away through selfishness.

[Astross]

Listen guys...

The whole purpose of this thread is to wonder why blizzard is making an overnited crafted item FAR superior, not just a lil superior, but FAR superior than items obtained from raiding.

Why is blizzard 'practically forcing' all raiders to drop their professions in order to obtain the best damage/healing gear?

Is it fair to all other professions that tailoring is so overpowered that you have to switch?

Is it fair to raiders that their gear is far inferior than an overnighted crafted item?

I understand they want to give tailoring an appeal to people and to not make it a totally worthless profession and they want the casuals to get some decent gear...but to 'practically force' people to lvl up tailoring is not fair to other professions and raiders.

Having the tailored items on par with tier4 seems like the most fair way to accomadate everybody. It gives the casuals decent gear... It doesn't force anyone to abandon current professions... And it makes tailoring appealing to some people...

Of course the current tailorers are going to QQ about this, because honestly who wants all that hard work and gold spent on lvling up tailoring to go to waste. Of course they want awesome gear...everyone does...but to not being fair to raiders and forcing people to abandon current professions should not be the case.

[Tanitha]

but to not being fair to raiders and forcing people to abandon current professions should not be the case.

And raiders will go on to Tier 5 and Tier 6 and whatever comes beyond that. Tier 4 is just a stepping stone for them. While Casual Tailors have hit their glass ceiling and cannot advance any further.

[larissa]

Larissa, you are correct in your post. PMC is better but its marginal.

The spellfire/fsw sets are far superior to any 5 man blues you will see.

I would also have another look at hallowed vs. pmc. The pmc was buffed and the gap, although not as large as the dps caster versions is considerably more than it was.

True, but in my Hallowed healing set, I'm around +1400 healing, in my Primal Mooncloth healing set, I'm just over +1600. But the difference isn't just in the change of the chest/shoulders (I wear the belt in both sets). I use Epoch Mender with Hallowed, and use the Gavel of Pure Light and the Lamp of Peaceful Repose in the PMC, which give near +100 healing more. So that's where I get my estimate of +100-150 for the PMC over Hallowed. Plus if it weren't for set bonuses and overall aesthetic look, I could likely get more for my Hallowed set to close the gap.

I don't know about damage gear, so can't comment, but will take your word for it.

That is just my point....why should tailored epics even be better than tier4...you can buy the pattern from a damn vender for crying out loud and can be made overnite!!

The amount of time and gold it takes to obtain a few pieces of tier4 is a hell of a lot more than crafting some tailored items...and I think you should rewarded for you time and effort, not just put it in the bank to collect dust.

The tailored epics should be a little bit below tier4...this would allow the casuals to get decent items and reward the raiders for their hard work...

and kara does not = ubrs...

I'd say kara is = MC or ZG

heroics = ubrs

While I see your point, please do realize that you cannot make any of the tailored sets overnight, unless you are very rich indeed.

I believe you need something like 36 pieces of Primal Mooncloth to make the three items of the PMC set. I imagine it's the same for the other sets. Cloth sells for around 50-60 gold per piece. So you're looking at spending around 2000 gold to buy up all the cloth, if it's available, plus another 200 gold or so for Primals and other incidentals.

Nevermind buying all the cloth and arcane dust to level up your skill to 375 in the first place.

All in all, you're looking at near Epic Riding cost to make your three pieces.

And in the end, so what? So what if some casual player _eventually_ makes their Tailoring set. Because let me tell you, most casual gamers do not have 3000-4000 gold lying around to make their gear overnight. I play much more than a 'casual' gamer, and it took me about 3 months to finally complete my PMC set. If I was really determined, I probably could have done it in half the time.

But how does it in any way affect _your_ game? It's not like there's some daily prize given away to the mage who does the most damage in a day. Solo/casual players will likely never even get into Karazhan, much less any of the 25-person raids. Heck, I'm not likely to see many 25-persons myself. So let us have the couple of decent epics we're likely ever to see.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

And raiders will go on to Tier 5 and Tier 6 and whatever comes beyond that. Tier 4 is just a stepping stone for them. While Casual Tailors have hit their glass ceiling and cannot advance any further.


At the current state, tier 4 is good for nothing except taking up valuable bank slots.

Tailored epics should be a stepping stone for tier4, with better and better patterns dropping in 25 mans along the way.

[Tanitha]

At the current state, tier 4 is good for nothing except taking up valuable bank slots.

Go read Larissa's post. She says it beautifully.

[rgirty]

FAR superior than items obtained from raiding

You mean from entry level tbc raiding. That is what kara is, that is what t4 is.

It is NOT superior to end game dungeon loot you will see in SSC and Black temple.

If your issue is with t4 vs tailored, then its simply your opinion that entry level raid gear should be better than anything anyone can craft for themselves.

Blizz saw it appropriate to give casuals, and entry level raiders an option of crafting great epic gear.

They gave hardcore raiders an option of t-5 and t-6 when they really start putting time into raiding.

Clearing kara is not some huge time commitment, or accomplishment. It was first cleared in january. It is a stepping stone.

Stating that tailored gear is greater than raiding gear should say.

"tailored gear is better than ENTRY level raiding gear"

Larissa, 150-200+ heal is substantial. Do you care to share your armory?

[Astross]

Epic tailoring patterns you buy from a vender should not be better than tier4.

Yes that is my opinion.

Now if blizzard wants to add some tailoring patterns that drop along the way that are better than tier4, that sounds more fair to me.

But to overpower tailoring so much that it forces everyone to abandon their tier4 AND professions to lvl up tailoring should not be the case.

[rgirty]

Epic tailoring patterns you buy from a vender should not be better than tier4.

Yes that is my opinion.

Now if blizzard wants to add some tailoring patterns that drop along the way that are better than tier4, that sounds more fair to me.

But to overpower tailoring so much that it forces everyone to abandon their tier4 AND professions to lvl up tailoring should not be the case.

Even entry level loot should be better than anything you can craft from a vendor. Ok then.

That means that every exalted faction rep item should not be better than anything you can obtain from raiding.

After all, gaining faction OR mats for tailoring are the same thing.

Take away all the exalted daggers, spell damage weapons, rings and healing items from all rep rewards because they are greater than what you can get from a raid. You aren't coordinating 9 other people to get them so you don't deserve it, until you can raid you shouldn't have access to something better than someone who can.


If you drop a prof, pick tailoring and craft your epic pieces so that you can do better while RAIDING it just means that you don't want to wait on your drops. If you are in a raiding guild you will see tier 5 or tier 6 and have better, you just want the max you can get right now. Which just happens to be the tailored gear.

It is a good thing that tailored is better IMO. The people who have elitist raiding attitudes will once again get to look down their noses at those who can't raid 30-40 hours a week once the masses reach ssc/black temple. Until then, they will craft their gear and moan about it or simply min/max using other drops until they get to that point.

[Magikhat]

Now if blizzard wants to add some tailoring patterns that drop along the way that are better than tier4, that sounds more fair to me.




How do you know they havent? You realize that most guilds are only on mag's lair and the elite of the elite aren't much farther into wow progression than that? How do you know what will drop in the later dungeons? IMO and Ive been nice up to this point but, stop crying. If you dont like the way the game is made stop playing or go make your own thanks.

[larissa]

Larissa, 150-200+ heal is substantial. Do you care to share your armory?

Same as what I shared in the 'Share our Armoury' thread :grin:

Larissia (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sentinels&n=Larissia)

I logged out in my Hallowed gear, and have +1394 healing unbuffed in it.

I'll try to remember to log out in my PMC gear, and at least report the numbers and what gear changes there are between the two sets, but pretty sure my +heal is just over +1600 now in it.

I'm not saying that +200 healing is nothing, but between the two sets, some 'lesser' gear choices were made for aesthetics. :grin:

Epic tailoring patterns you buy from a vender should not be better than tier4.

Yes that is my opinion.

Now if blizzard wants to add some tailoring patterns that drop along the way that are better than tier4, that sounds more fair to me.

But to overpower tailoring so much that it forces everyone to abandon their tier4 AND professions to lvl up tailoring should not be the case.

I had a look at the Tier 4 stats versus the PMC stats. I would say that your people stashing away the Tier 4 are looking to just max out their +heal.

It comes down to two pieces of gear, the robes and the shoulders. (Edited out the pointless stuff like level requirements.)

Primal Mooncloth Shoulders
133 Armor
+16 Intellect
+15 Spirit
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 92.
Equip: Restores 7 mana per 5 sec.

vs.

Light-Mantle of the Incarnate
152 Armor
+19 Stamina
+30 Intellect
+22 Spirit
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 53.

and

Primal Mooncloth Robe
202 Armor
+20 Intellect
+20 Spirit
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Intellect
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 121.
Equip: Restores 10 mana per 5 sec.

vs.

Robes of the Incarnate
202 Armor
+30 Stamina
+32 Intellect
+20 Spirit
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +4 Intellect
Equip: Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 88.


Personally, I would be all over the Tier 4 shoulders. By the time I'm raiding successfully for Tier 4, I'm likely to have a source of epic gems to socket with. I would think I could get near the same amount of +heal and +mp5 of the PMC shoulder, as well as get a huge boost to my intelligence (=mana) and stamina (=life).

The Tier 4 robes I can see being a bit on the losing side here. Only one more gem slot, so it will be hard to make up for the +33 healing loss from the PMC, as well as the mp5 loss. But you do gain a huge amount of stamina and a goodly amount of intelligence out of the bargain.

Plus ... the Tier 4 items don't require you to be a specialized tailor, so you can have your favoured professions, and still have equivalent gear. So you can have your equivalent gear, and still have a useful profession. Suddenly Tailoring stops being useful.

And, you have to consider utility over specialization. Tailored gear only helps me (though I suppose by extention, helps everyone as I have a somewhat higher +heal). If you were an alchemist, your potions and elixirs help your entire raid.

~~~Larissa

[mesonm]

I dropped Jewelcrafting for tailoring. But I'm not mad about it, I'm glad to have gear this good sooner rather than later.

:shocked:

wow...you gave up arguably the highest paying profession for one that will cost you a bunch of money in the long run....I salute your decision, especially because of the gear available...But, I was surprisede to read it here.

I have both jewelcrafting and tailoring on my lock.....which is quite nice, indeed.

Of course, I have more than one 70, and the second 70 mines....Best of all worlds.

[Astross]

If you drop a prof, pick tailoring and craft your epic pieces so that you can do better while RAIDING it just means that you don't want to wait on your drops. If you are in a raiding guild you will see tier 5 or tier 6 and have better, you just want the max you can get right now. Which just happens to be the tailored gear.

No, it means I want to be able to perform to the best of my ability and help my guild progress to get to tier5...so yes, I want the max I can get right now. It would be stupid not to.





It is a good thing that tailored is better IMO. The people who have elitist raiding attitudes will once again get to look down their noses at those who can't raid 30-40 hours a week once the masses reach ssc/black temple. Until then, they will craft their gear and moan about it or simply min/max using other drops until they get to that point.

Sounds like someone is on a powertrip...and has a grudge against raiders for some reason.

I don't think you realise the gap between karazhan and SCC. I'd estimate over 50% of raiders will never see the inside of SCC. Is it fair to those casual raiders that their gear will always be far inferior to that of an overnighted craftable?




In my opinion, things should work like this in order to be fair to ALL professions and people:

-tailored epics should be a stepping stone to tier4, with better and better patterns dropping along the way.

-tier4 should be a stepping stone to tier5...almost seems logical...

[Steamboat]

:shocked:

wow...you gave up arguably the highest paying profession for one that will cost you a bunch of money in the long run....I salute your decision, especially because of the gear available...But, I was surprisede to read it here.

I have both jewelcrafting and tailoring on my lock.....which is quite nice, indeed.

Of course, I have more than one 70, and the second 70 mines....Best of all worlds.

Correction: I gave up 150 jewelcrafting. That's as far as I got before I found out about the epic crafted stuff.

Also I have a 65 priest that's a miner/skinner so I'm not hurting too badly for $.

[evolutionsentra]

No, it means I want to be able to perform to the best of my ability and help my guild progress to get to tier5...so yes, I want the max I can get right now. It would be stupid not to.







Sounds like someone is on a powertrip...and has a grudge against raiders for some reason.




In my opinion, things should work like this in order to be fair to ALL professions and people:

-tailored epics should be a stepping stone to tier4, with better and better patterns dropping along the way.

-tier4 should be a stepping stone to tier5...almost seems logical...

I'll tell you this, it was 10x more difficult collecting mats to obtain my FSW set than it was to take out curator/prince to get my T4.

[Tanitha]

Sounds like someone is on a powertrip...and has a grudge against raiders for some reason.

You could reverse this and say "Sounds like someone is on a powertrip ... and has a grudge against casuals for some reason". Because seriously, not everyone has the time to raid 8 or however many hours a day. So to make the Epic Tailoring items a stepping stone to raiding is dumb. Just plain and simply dumb.

Things work fine as they are now as everyone has the opportunity to get good gear. Raiders will still come out on top eventually, they just have to progress as they will. So you can relax, you'll still have the best gear eventually.

[rgirty]

No, it means I want to be able to perform to the best of my ability and help my guild progress to get to tier5...so yes, I want the max I can get right now. It would be stupid not to.







Sounds like someone is on a powertrip...and has a grudge against raiders for some reason.




In my opinion, things should work like this in order to be fair to ALL professions and people:

-tailored epics should be a stepping stone to tier4, with better and better patterns dropping along the way.

-tier4 should be a stepping stone to tier5...almost seems logical...

No powertrip here, but look at what you are saying.

Crafted gear from any vendor cannot be better than what is in entry level kara.

The only crafted gear that can be better must be obtained from recipes that are locked away in raid dungeons.

Read the above, does that not sound like a powertrip from a raiders perspective?

If you can't raid, not only can you not obtain what we get from arguably an easy raid instance like kara (pug groups are near clearing it on my server). You also cannot get any of the better crafting recipes because they only drop in raid dungeons.

Your a 375, tailor, enchanter, blacksmith, engineer, alchemist and only have 2-3 hours to play per day? Forget about ever having any great gear or recipes, those are for raiders.

Do you see how that might be a bad business model? To basically tell a large portion of your customer base that you are going to cater to a very small fraction of your customers?

Almost makes sense....

[Magikhat]

QQ thread :P

[mesonm]

Sounds like someone is on a powertrip...and has a grudge against raiders for some reason.


Honestly, it sounds to me like you are against master crafters, which is what a 375 tailor is, once they go through the painful process of leveling.

[Astross]

No powertrip here, but look at what you are saying.

Crafted gear from any vendor cannot be better than what is in entry level kara.

sounds fair to me and ALL professions. Lets try to look at the point of view from a non-tailor please.

The only crafted gear that can be better must be obtained from recipes that are locked away in raid dungeons.

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.

If you can't raid, not only can you not obtain what we get from arguably an easy raid instance like kara (pug groups are near clearing it on my server). You also cannot get any of the better crafting recipes because they only drop in raid dungeons.

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.

Your a 375, tailor, enchanter, blacksmith, engineer, alchemist and only have 2-3 hours to play per day? Forget about ever having any great gear or recipes, those are for raiders.

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.

Do you see how that might be a bad business model? To basically tell a large portion of your customer base that you are going to cater to a very small fraction of your customers?

Almost makes sense....

Almost makes no sense at all...

[Astross]

Honestly, it sounds to me like you are against master crafters, which is what a 375 tailor is, once they go through the painful process of leveling.




No I am against one profession being so overpowered that it essentially forces everyone to drop their current professions and choose that one.

[Tanitha]

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.

Have you looked at what is required to get (a) to 375 tailoring in terms of cost and materials and (b) to craft those items? With no resale possible, so you can't even recover the costs.

I'd say that takes time and effort, but it is time and effort that can be sliced into slivers. Which makes it good for casual players.

Raiders, who can invest longer stretches of time all at once get better gear eventually. It works out well for them.

Everything is balanced in this regard. Sounds like a smart business decision, because me as a casual pays the same as you as a hardcore raider. They make both of us ... uhm. Well. I don't know if you're happy, but anyway. They're getting more money off casuals for the amount of resources they use. That sounds like a win-win situation to me for everyone.

[Astross]

Have you looked at what is required to get (a) to 375 tailoring in terms of cost and materials and (b) to craft those items? With no resale possible, so you can't even recover the costs.

I'd say that takes time and effort, but it is time and effort that can be sliced into slivers. Which makes it good for casual players.

Raiders, who can invest longer stretches of time all at once get better gear eventually. It works out well for them.

Everything is balanced in this regard. Sounds like a smart business decision, because me as a casual pays the same as you as a hardcore raider. They make both of us ... uhm. Well. I don't know if you're happy, but anyway. They're getting more money off casuals for the amount of resources they use. That sounds like a win-win situation to me for everyone.



I think you are missing the point...

Tier5 is not easy to get, only about 10% of guilds on any server are currently running SCC. And in order to get anywhere in SCC you need to have the best gear you can get...which requires many dps casters to drop their current professions and pick up tailored epics to get that extra damage the raid so desperatly needs.

Why should anyone 'practically have to' drop their current professions? It's not fair to the casual gamer, and it's not fair to the hardcore raider for anyone to drop their current profession to get a piece of overpowered goodness.

All I ask is that tailored epics be on the same level as tier 4...that way no one is overpowered and no one is 'forced' to drop their professions. It would be fair to everyone...

[rgirty]

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.


edited for less trouble.

If you truly believe that tier 4 should be as good if not better than anything crafters can make, just because you have to join two 5 man groups together to get it that is your opinion.

Blizz, most if not all the people in this thread and the vast majority of the community believe the gear is structured correctly.

You believe you are right, they believe they are correct.

The majority has the upper hand here, I understand you are frustrated that 5 hours in kara does not yield better gear than someone can craft (after many hours farming/leveling a profession) but blizz, and the majority of players believe this is for the best.

Good luck to you on your raiding endeavor.

[Steamboat]

I think you are missing the point...

Tier5 is not easy to get, only about 10% of guilds on any server are currently running SCC. And in order to get anywhere in SCC you need to have the best gear you can get...which requires many dps casters to drop their current professions and pick up tailored epics to get that extra damage the raid so desperatly needs.

Why should anyone 'practically have to' drop their current professions? It's not fair to the casual gamer, and it's not fair to the hardcore raider for anyone to drop their current profession to get a piece of overpowered goodness.

All I ask is that tailored epics be on the same level as tier 4...that way no one is overpowered and no one is 'forced' to drop their professions. It would be fair to everyone...

You are saying that SSC cannot be cleared unless the DPS casters have fsw/spellfire?

[Tanitha]

Why should anyone 'practically have to' drop their current professions? It's not fair to the casual gamer, and it's not fair to the hardcore raider for anyone to drop their current profession to get a piece of overpowered goodness.

And as other players (Larissa, rgirty, etc.) have indicated the differences are so small that you don't need to do that. Interesting to see that it's moved to "overpowered" now.

All I ask is that tailored epics be on the same level as tier 4...that way no one is overpowered and no one is 'forced' to drop their professions. It would be fair to everyone...

And when you are running around in Tier6? What then? Oh wait - yes. Casuals have to run raids to get the patterns so they can actually craft the gear. Yes, that was your solution, wasn't it?

[rgirty]

You are saying that SSC cannot be cleared unless the DPS casters have fsw/spellfire?

My guess is he's getting blown away on the meter by people who have actually took the time and effort to level tailoring and create the epics so that they can perform better in the raid.

He's angry that they are beating him and does not want to take the time/trouble/sacrifice himself to do the same. I could be totally wrong and thats just a guess. But if he isn't being outperformed by others, then where is the problem?

[wisers]

sounds fair to me and ALL professions. Lets try to look at the point of view from a non-tailor please.

sounds to me like your just upset that tailoring was useless before, and now its not.

why should you get better gear than someone who puts forth more time and effort? the harder the work, the greater the reward. Don't expect good gear if you don't have the time and effort to obtain it.

well since the raiders aren't done putting in their time, and someone with their epic tailoring set is, this becomes a moot point. Likewise there has to be other areas for non-raiders to improve their gear. Your arguing that professions should be capped similiarily to 5mans in terms of gear quality? Likewise with reputation rewards?

Almost makes no sense at all...

No, what makes no sense at all is that you think early raid gear(read: T4 sets) should be superior to end game PvE non-raid or 5man content.

edit: added the boldness cause its sweet

I think you are missing the point...

Tier5 is not easy to get, only about 10% of guilds on any server are currently running SCC. And in order to get anywhere in SCC you need to have the best gear you can get...which requires many dps casters to drop their current professions and pick up tailored epics to get that extra damage the raid so desperatly needs.

Why should anyone 'practically have to' drop their current professions? It's not fair to the casual gamer, and it's not fair to the hardcore raider for anyone to drop their current profession to get a piece of overpowered goodness.

All I ask is that tailored epics be on the same level as tier 4...that way no one is overpowered and no one is 'forced' to drop their professions. It would be fair to everyone...

I'm just gonna do some thinking here,

Blizzard created Kara as a starting point for raid groups in TBC -> put T4 as the reward.

Blizzard tests SSC and finds its difficulty lvl to be were they want it - ideal testing means you'd use the best raiding gear available at said time

now if your having trouble, and your not using the best raiding gear available at the time, that might be the problem.

P.S. now in no way, form, shape or any other median do i consider myself knowledgble about WoW, but it would seem logical to me that you adorn yourself in T4 whilst exploring a dungeon untill you've got your T5.

edit #2 being the last quote

[shifttusk]

You are saying that SSC cannot be cleared unless the DPS casters have fsw/spellfire?

Agreed, this isn't true. I think the real problem is that raiding is harder than it used to be (Naxx excluded). Raids are smaller and therefore there is less room where you can have idiot buffer where people could hit MC in greens as long as the tank and MH's were geared well. Yet the same person would be a liability in ZG and other smaller raids. The fact of the matter is you don't need PMC or FSW or spellfire to have the dps/heals for Kara, Grulls, Mag or probably even SSC but it helps. Generaly it helps because rather than learning to use their abilities to the maximum, or using the best consumables or heck paying attention many players and guilds throw gear at the problem. I doubt the worlds top raiding guilds requried their members to farm and create crafter purples. They don't suck, they did it in what they had.

To these people speaking of crafting being right. I agree, theres no reason for crafter gear to have to be inferior to Kara gear. This is why Bliz made better crafter gear and made heroics and made more world drop epics. It makes the huge difference between a casual player and a raider that used to exist smaller. This way when casualtusk has spent 100 hours at 70 farming mats for his Ebon Netherscale and getting his pvp belt he's not so far behind raidingtusk who spent 100hours farming kara and has T4 head gloves and the breastplate of carnage.

Learn to QQ less and L2Play more if you ask me.

[Aswer]

Learn to QQ less and L2Play more if you ask me.

I think I'm gonna throw a big fat QFT on that one.

[morbomage]

Im confused, what are you guys classing as the entry raids for TBC? Kara? the new UBRS of TBC, Gruul and Mags Lair? the new ZG and AQ20.

I have my tailored epics and i wouldnt swap them for tier 4 a sthere is only a marginal difference between the two and i would prefer to give the token to someone who does not have the opertunity to craft decent gear. I have used my Tailored epics to bypass tier 4 drops because as others have said its only a stepping stone before SSC and TK.

As soon as you enter SSC or TK (if you havnt already) you will realise thats where the real raiding starts, and items are far superior to the tailored epics we have.

I agree with rgirty and Tanitha entirly when they say it is just a stepping stone, i have seen many of these type threads and like i have said in all of them it is all about progression.

[Astross]

You guys are so happy about your overpowered tailored epics that you don't even stop to realise what it's doing to other professions.

I have seen countless people drop their current professions in order to be able to craft these tailored epics...when have you ever seen so many people drop any profession for another in such a mass quantity??

Is it nice to have these awesome tailored epics?...well sure it is, everyone loves great gear...but 'practically forcing' anybody to change professions is not right and something needs to be fixed.

All I hear in this thread is tailors gloating with joy about how awesome their tailored epics are and not giving one bit of consideration towards other professions.

[amgyn]

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=amgyn
i have mostly kara gear with only 1 crafted piece

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=fandango
he has mostly crafted gear.

[Astross]

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=amgyn
i have mostly kara gear with only 1 crafted piece

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=fandango
he has mostly crafted gear.




Can't see those sites up at work...what are you trying to say?

[meikyo]

Wow, all you guys ever do is say how much better it is here than the official forums, Astross brings up a valid debate and there's so much childish "QQ" comment bs here and on top of that some very biased views.

I feel you man, just a few weeks ago I was upset about this(since I started raiding again). I think part of the point you guys miss here is not just that its better entry level gear, but the discrimination we might face for not leveling tailoring in regards to guild apps and/or raid invites. I get to thinking about it some, ultimately it isn't going to matter, but for the time being I felt like I was being pigeonholed, plus all the casters on these boards shouting "LEVEL TAILORING OR YOURE GIMPING YOUR RAID" was kinda annoying.

So anyway, I got to thinking...Karazhan isn't the end of the game. Still, it might be hard, but if you want to keep your professions you'll endure through Karazhan. If you love to have uber gear, which I'm sure you do, you'll end up in SSC at some point(unless your guild gets stuck in the kara rut). At that point you'll have bridged the gap some(maybe faster in kara since other casters have their crafted gear, pass to you!)...and then through SSC well there won't be much difference at all. What then!!!!?

Tailor Caster: "Damn I can't believe I spent all that money on tailoring" /sadface

Ok ok, I'm an engineer/miner, so I do have a really nice crafted headpiece(which was released this patch), I know it's not exactly the same but I definately do not have access to numerous crafted epics I can use. In my month or so of kara I've lightened up about it some due to upgrades(also finishing out HH rep finally/and heroics)and well, my dps is honestly really close(and sometimes better)than our tailor casters. Just rough it out a little, in the end tailors are the ones who lose the most.

[mesonm]

No I am against one profession being so overpowered that it essentially forces everyone to drop their current professions and choose that one.


Can't wait to see all of those rogues, druids, and warriors who changed their professions to tailoring....

(yes, what I said is silly, almost as silly as what you said...)

[wisers]

You guys are so happy about your overpowered tailored epics that you don't even stop to realise what it's doing to other professions.

Since we don't "realize" what it's doing to other enlighten us.

I have seen countless people drop their current professions in order to be able to craft these tailored epics...when have you ever seen so many people drop any profession for another in such a mass quantity??

Since your not specific about what proffessions are dropped, it could simply be that people don't need a gathering prof if they are willing to quest or pwn mobs for gold.

Is it nice to have these awesome tailored epics?...well sure it is, everyone loves great gear...but 'practically forcing' anybody to change professions is not right and something needs to be fixed.

Tailoring offers you three pieces of gear . . .

All I hear in this thread is tailors gloating with joy about how awesome their tailored epics are and not giving one bit of consideration towards other professions.

No ones gloating with joy, heck my tailorings like 185 WOOT epics! Again though, why do the other professions need consideration?

[larissa]

You guys are so happy about your overpowered tailored epics that you don't even stop to realise what it's doing to other professions.

I have seen countless people drop their current professions in order to be able to craft these tailored epics...when have you ever seen so many people drop any profession for another in such a mass quantity??

Is it nice to have these awesome tailored epics?...well sure it is, everyone loves great gear...but 'practically forcing' anybody to change professions is not right and something needs to be fixed.

All I hear in this thread is tailors gloating with joy about how awesome their tailored epics are and not giving one bit of consideration towards other professions.


I feel you man, just a few weeks ago I was upset about this(since I started raiding again). I think part of the point you guys miss here is not just that its better entry level gear, but the discrimination we might face for not leveling tailoring in regards to guild apps and/or raid invites. I get to thinking about it some, ultimately it isn't going to matter, but for the time being I felt like I was being pigeonholed, plus all the casters on these boards shouting "LEVEL TAILORING OR YOURE GIMPING YOUR RAID" was kinda annoying.

First off, you are exaggerating. There are 6 other classes that have no use at all for the tailored epic (well, perhaps the odd Holy Paladin or Restoration Druid or Shaman ... if they really want to wear flimsy cloth).

Second, perhaps you've not noticed your own subtle difference ... it's not Blizzard saying "You must take Tailoring", it's these guilds doing so. They probably also force you to spec in certain ways to 'maximize' effectiveness in the raids they go to. If these are the guilds you're rabid to join, then you are going to have to abide by their 'rules' and restrictions. If it's not for you, then how is it a problem? I'm already a Tailor, but I wouldn't join a guild that enforced restrictions like this in an attempt to power through content to get the 'phat lewtz'. They would probably force me to spends hundreds of gold on getting the Whitemend set as well, since I have not been lucky enough to have either pattern drop for me yet. I feel for you too, if you're really wanting to join such a guild.

And just what is it doing to the other professions, pray tell? You still have a second profession slot. You can still have your gathering skill to make tons of gold. You can still have your enchanting to max out your gear. You can still have your Alchemy to make your dozens of potions and elixirs. You can still Jewelcraft to make all the gems you want. If you're in this min/max guild, they'll supply you with the materials needed for your other crafting profession, or if you are a Gatherer, you can supply them with needed materials.

Wow, all you guys ever do is say how much better it is here than the official forums, Astross brings up a valid debate and there's so much childish "QQ" comment bs here and on top of that some very biased views.

<snip>

So anyway, I got to thinking...Karazhan isn't the end of the game. Still, it might be hard, but if you want to keep your professions you'll endure through Karazhan. If you love to have uber gear, which I'm sure you do, you'll end up in SSC at some point(unless your guild gets stuck in the kara rut). At that point you'll have bridged the gap some(maybe faster in kara since other casters have their crafted gear, pass to you!)...and then through SSC well there won't be much difference at all. What then!!!!?

Tailor Caster: "Damn I can't believe I spent all that money on tailoring" /sadface

Ok ok, I'm an engineer/miner, so I do have a really nice crafted headpiece(which was released this patch), I know it's not exactly the same but I definately do not have access to numerous crafted epics I can use. In my month or so of kara I've lightened up about it some due to upgrades(also finishing out HH rep finally/and heroics)and well, my dps is honestly really close(and sometimes better)than our tailor casters. Just rough it out a little, in the end tailors are the ones who lose the most.

Which was a point I was trying to get across. Once you're into the upper raid scene, which seems to be where you want to be anyway, Tailoring suddenly becomes pointless.

So here most of us are, casuals who will not be raiding Serpentshrine and the Eye every other night, in the best gear we're likely to see. And there you are, in your gleaming Tier 5, already better than what we have, and it's just a mere transitional set of gear for you to get to your Tier 6. And you'll have the professions you want to make other epic things or haul in tons of gold. We'll be stuck having to be the specialized tailors we are to use our tailored sets.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

Can't wait to see all of those rogues, druids, and warriors who changed their professions to tailoring....

(yes, what I said is silly, almost as silly as what you said...)



maybe you missed the title of this thread...

CLOTHIES forced into Tailoring.

[Astross]

Tailoring offers you three pieces of gear . . .


actually it offers you 5...

[rgirty]

actually it offers you 5...

explain how it offers you 5.

I'm not going to try and argue against your opinion anymore. It really is pointless. It reminds me of an argument that was going on in trade channel today. One individual linked a boe item to sell, another pointed out that it was bop.

The item was clearly boe to everyone but this person who wanted to argue that it was BoP. It was clear to everyone but him that the item was boe, he didn't want to admit it.

It is the majority of players and the developers opinion that the gear is correct the way it is. That is why we saw buffs and changes to multiple blues/epics in the last patch. It is where it needs to be for progression.

No one is forced to do anything in this game, if you want to be the best take the best professions. You might say that healers have been forced into enchanting with the new +20 heal BoP enchants to rings.

Unlike your tailoring/t4 comparison, where raiders will get t5 and t6 that is better. There is no alternative for the non enchanting healer. The healer with enchanting will always have a +40 healing advantage over the non enchanter.

Before you say that is minimal, look at the numbers.

The rule of thumb for kara is +1000 heal. +40 = 2.5% of that 1K heal. That is on every single heal that is cast, the non enchanter can NEVER overcome this deficit. In the same suit of gear the enchanting healer WILL outheal the other player, you have no way around it.

The same argument can be made for the philosophers stone. The 40% boost to mana potions every 2 minutes provides mp5 that cannot be matched by any single item in that trinket slot. If you are a healer and you don't have alchemy you won't last as long as the healer who has it and has this trinket.

Not only does his pots give him 40% more boost, he also makes them cheaply as he is an alchemist.

Again, unlike your tier4/crafted gear comparison the non alchemist has no way to compensate for this. He will simply be outlasted by this individual who has alchemy.

Each profession has its perks now with the new bop items. Some people are just willing to make the sacrifice to level up tailoring and craft their epic set of gear to help out their raid/guild for a short time. Because sooner rather than later, their raid drops will be better than their tailored set and they'll be "forced" into something else as it is best for the raid at the time.

In the meantime, a large % of the customer base is happy, because while they cannot devote a large portion of time to raiding they will still have some decent gear. Not nearly as good as end game raiding gear, but decent and within reach for them.

That is the truth of it, people min/maxing forcing specs and professions will be into the 25 man area fairly quickly i would think. If your guild is so hardcore that they are forcing professions upon people I wouldn't think you would spend long in glorified ubrs gear.

[mesonm]

maybe you missed the title of this thread...

CLOTHIES forced into Tailoring.

Maybe you missed your constant overgeneralizations....which have the effect of broadening the thread subject.

You refuse to consider the opinions of others...and are making no new arguments...

So, There is nothing much to be gained by constantly repeating ourselves.

I presume you've communicated your thoughts to blizz, the only entity empowered to make changes that you suggest.

[Astross]

explain how it offers you 5.



1) Spellfire Robe
2) Spellfire Belt
3) Spellfire Gloves
4) Spellstrike Hood
5) Spellstrike Pants



hmmmm, is that five? one, two, three, four, five...yup i'm counting 5


and I don't want to hear about how hard it is to craft these items because it's ridiculously easy to get 5 pieces of overpowered tailored goodness. Hell I switched over to tailoring last Friday, and I already have made the Spellfire belt.

5 pieces that are on par with tier5...which almost makes SCC and all the tier5 cloth gear worthless.


And I love how you guys think that any guild can just hop right into SCC and get tier5...well I got news for you...getting to SCC takes months of dedication and hard work...you can't just go farm mindlessly for hours and come out with an epic.

Most guilds are not hardcore and are still working on clearing Karazhan and Gruuls/Mags. They are months away from even thinking about SCC. Casual non-tailor raiders will have to stay with crappy tier4 that is easily beat by an overnight crafted epic. Having subpar gear for that long is just not gonna happen....this is why clothies are forced into tailoring and to drop their current professions...which is the whole purpose of this thread.

[Stowned]

If you don't like the way guilds run things, then dont join the guild.

If you think you have to be tailoring to do high-end dungeons and it really bothers you that badly, do pvp and get those epics.

There are alternatives, Heck, I don't even really pve at this game. I'd probably never spend "dedicated months" to getting fat loot, I'd rather spend "dedicated months" having fun.

Bottom line, if you don't want to do something, no one can make you, so honestly, get over it.

[Astross]

If you don't like the way guilds run things, then dont join the guild.

If you think you have to be tailoring to do high-end dungeons and it really bothers you that badly, do pvp and get those epics.

There are alternatives, Heck, I don't even really pve at this game. I'd probably never spend "dedicated months" to getting fat loot, I'd rather spend "dedicated months" having fun.

Bottom line, if you don't want to do something, no one can make you, so honestly, get over it.




I think you need to stick with your "organized crime" and go mine some copper.... LOL

[Beruen]

1) Spellfire Robe
2) Spellfire Belt
3) Spellfire Gloves
4) Spellstrike Hood
5) Spellstrike Pants



hmmmm, is that five? i'll be damned i think it is!

Except of course for the fact that two of those are BoE, not BoP, and BoE isn't going to force anyone to take a specific profession, so it doesn't really apply here, now does it?

So far, the only thing that's really come out of this whole discussion is an agreement that it's your opinion that crafted epics shouldn't be better than entry level raiding gear. Obviously, other people disagree.

For that matter, Blizzard disagrees. I seem to remember the pre-BC epic tailoring robe beating the T1 robe in many opinions. Oddly enough, the situation between the PMC robe and the Robes of the Incarnate mirror that situation. The tailoring item beats the raid item in +healing and +MP/5, but loses out in just about every other way. The Spellfire Robe only beats the T4 "mage" robe in the actual damage bonus (which doesn't include frost), the T4 robe beats it in all other stats. So, the epic BoP tailoring stuff is better for a min-maxer, the T4 is better for a generalist.

[Astross]

Except of course for the fact that two of those are BoE, not BoP, and BoE isn't going to force anyone to take a specific profession, so it doesn't really apply here, now does it?



Maybe you didn't see that lil part at the bottom called SET BONUS...ya it requires tailoring to get....and yes, its definetly worth having...its that good.

[Steamboat]

Guys, I didn't want to have to do this...but you forced my hand:
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9716/argumentxu3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Tanitha]

Guys, I didn't want to have to do this...but you forced my hand

:laugh: After another simply brilliant rgirty post that basically wrapped things up for me, I'm just staying around for the fun of it now. This is a rather amusing thread.

"The sky is blue!"

[Astross]

yes a simply brillant post about comparing the alchemist stone to tailored epics... LOL

[Tanitha]

yes a simply brillant post about comparing the alchemist stone to tailored epics... LOL

You only show your own lack of understanding with that statement.

His point was that throughout the history of the game when comparing two characters of equal gear, their choices of profession would benefit them in different ways. All professions with BoP items will give that character an advantage over somebody without that profession.

For the current snapshot of the World of Warcraft game, Tailored epics outshine (But not by much, remember the generalist comment made a bit earlier) the Tier 4 raiding gear. The choice for Raiders then becomes, take up Tailoring or keep on focusing on Tier 5. Once you get Tier 5 you'll be laughing at the Tailored Epics. So over time, and through the natural progression of the game this whole point will become moot.

Especially as you've already taken up Tailoring now :laugh:

[rgirty]

1) Spellfire Robe
2) Spellfire Belt
3) Spellfire Gloves
4) Spellstrike Hood
5) Spellstrike Pants



hmmmm, is that five? one, two, three, four, five...yup i'm counting 5


and I don't want to hear about how hard it is to craft these items because it's ridiculously easy to get 5 pieces of overpowered tailored goodness. Hell I switched over to tailoring last Friday, and I already have made the Spellfire belt.

5 pieces that are on par with tier5...which almost makes SCC and all the tier5 cloth gear worthless.


And I love how you guys think that any guild can just hop right into SCC and get tier5...well I got news for you...getting to SCC takes months of dedication and hard work...you can't just go farm mindlessly for hours and come out with an epic.

Most guilds are not hardcore and are still working on clearing Karazhan and Gruuls/Mags. They are months away from even thinking about SCC. Casual non-tailor raiders will have to stay with crappy tier4 that is easily beat by an overnight crafted epic. Having subpar gear for that long is just not gonna happen....this is why clothies are forced into tailoring and to drop their current professions...which is the whole purpose of this thread.

You sir are officially a troll. You didn't respond to any of the other valid points in my entire post. You have gone into semantics of a boe set bonus. You chose to ignore the fact that an enchanter has a boost that other players will never see.

An enchanter has +12 dmg bop enchant he can place on each ring. If we are really talking about being forced into something, the dps caster with enchanting will always outdps any player of the same class in equal gear. Because he has bop enchants that others cannot obtain.

If you simply want to argue opinion it is MY opinion that the +12dmg he can put on his rings makes that profession overpowered. You must pick it if you want to top the meter. He'll always outdps you. Always, no matter what you have no choice but be inferior to the other player. No matter how far you go end game the player with enchanting will outheal/outdps you in the same set of gear.

BOP enchants are overpowered, and should be offered to all classes they give an unfair advantage to people who choose enchanting and force the rest of healers/dps to choose that profession.

Before you say the difference is marginal, I say it isn't. Just as you say t4/tailored gear has a huge difference I'm going to say that these enchants make a huge difference.

No matter the flaw in my logic or the 25 people telling me differently, the devs at blizz designing the game this way i'm going to stand my ground and complain about being "forced" into enchanting.

I used the enchanting analogy because it is a more solid argument than your tailoring one.

For this brief short few months in wow you would like all tier4+ raid gear to be better than any pattern/item a non raider can get. Any patterns that drop for anything better are also locked away in a dungeon. Totally alienating a large % of the customer base.

This game is the most popular mmo for a reason, because the devs don't bow down and cater to a small fraction of the elitists who have a large chunk of time to donate to it. They actually leave something in the game worth having for casuals and those who choose not to raid. What you would like is to have this removed, so that raider superiority can once again be established. This will happen naturally, as raiders progress but for this short window a crafted item is actually slightly superior than a tier raid set (entry level may it be).

The truth is, you aren't forced to go into tailoring. You can progress from kara to gruul/mag and on into SSC with the gear that drops from those instances. People choosing to take up tailoring are simply taking a very temporary shortcut for 3 pieces of gear.

I would advise them to take up enchanting, +24 permanent spell damage or +40 permanent healing that has no alternative would be more beneficial along the way.

We can argue opinions all you want, but the hard truth is that all this seems to be coming from the fact that some casuals have better gear than you and you cannot stand it, it infuriates you. Just have some patience, you will be able to look down your nose at them again very soon.

[Astross]

You only show your own lack of understanding with that statement.

His point was that throughout the history of the game when comparing two characters of equal gear, their choices of profession would benefit them in different ways. All professions with BoP items will give that character an advantage over somebody without that profession.

For the current snapshot of the World of Warcraft game, Tailored epics outshine (But not by much, remember the generalist comment made a bit earlier) the Tier 4 raiding gear. The choice for Raiders then becomes, take up Tailoring or keep on focusing on Tier 5. Once you get Tier 5 you'll be laughing at the Tailored Epics. So over time, and through the natural progression of the game this whole point will become moot.

Especially as you've already taken up Tailoring now :laugh:



You only show your own lack of understanding with that statement.

Most guilds are not hardcore and are still working on clearing Karazhan and Gruuls/Mags. They are months away from even thinking about SCC. And when they finally do get to SCC, its going to take more months of hard work to actually win a piece of tier5, only to be on par with the tailored epics leaving no room for an actual upgrade.

Casual non-tailor raiders will have to stay with crappy tier4 during the SCC runs that is easily beat by an overnight crafted epic. Having subpar gear for that long is just not gonna happen....this is why clothies are forced into tailoring and to drop their current professions...which is the whole purpose of this thread.

[DraedynLei]

Wow, I posted in this thread not that long ago and look how it's spiraled since then. Hmm... everything has been said (or not said), should I even bother responding? Sure, why not. Cause I'm at work and work rather slack than the alternative.

First off, I am a tailor. I'm not hardcore but I'm not casual either. I play about 20 hours a week and I raid 8 to 12 hours, 2-3 days a week depending on the raid rotation. I got my T4 gloves my first time in kara when we downed curator on our 3rd attempt. It took 4 hours. Ummm... that was not harder than the week of farming it took me to get the mats for my spellfire gloves. It was not harder than the WEEKS it took me to level my tailoring. It did not take longer than the cooldown required to make the spellcloth I needed. For you to argue that getting a full spellfire/spellstrike set "overnite" is laughable and makes your argument seem hallow and spiteful.

Also it does not force anyone to do anything, merely gives you added incentive to do so. Just like the BOP ring enchants give people incentive to be enchanters or the items for engineering that are usable only by engineers does for their profession. Blizz did not want to create useless professions. And with that philosophy in mind, have done a decent job though some need to be looked at (and they swear they are doing so). Also there are more epic tailoring pattern drops that are just insane later on, so tailoring is here to stay.

The top raiding guild on my server has 5 primary mages. Only 1 has tailoring. You don't need it to succeed.

[jocool]

By Astross' logic: Everyone forced to Raid.

I pay $14.99 to play WoW, but why should I be forced to raid to get better gear? Raiders do not pay more than me to play WoW, therefore why should they get access to much better gear?

If my limited time in WoW does not matter to you, then why does it matter to me that you spend more time in a raid? Still you do not pay more per month to play.

You chose to play more hours, while I chose to do other things in life. Does that make you feel like you deserve better gear?

Raiding can be for better gear, but I view raiding as experiencing the story and lore of WoW. That's why it's dubbed PvE.

[Tanitha]

You only show your own lack of understanding with that statement.

What is showing a lack of understanding about saying you have a choice between taking up tailoring and focusing on getting Tier 5? Yes, Tier 5 will be a while away. (How long depends on the guild) But in my post I indicated that time plays a part in this equation.

Casual progression ends at the tailored epics. Raiders will, over time, supplant that completely. Yes, you will have the choice between tailored items, tier 4 and PvP / Arena gear until then. Make your choice.

The top raiding guild on my server has 5 primary mages. Only 1 has tailoring. You don't need it to succeed.

Out of curiosity I had a quick browse through Death and Taxes' armoury. They seem to be about 50/50 in terms of clothies who have taken up Tailoring and clothies who have not. It's impossible to say if they actually dropped another profession for it, but it seems that Warlocks favour the Tailored epics. Mages it seems does not. Priests were about half and half, but I only looked through the first 7 pages of their guild armoury.

[Astross]

I got my T4 gloves my first time in kara when we downed curator on our 3rd attempt. It took 4 hours. Ummm... that was not harder than the week of farming it took me to get the mats for my spellfire gloves.

good for you dude, you got lucky and got T4 gloves on your first run /golfclap

now how long was your guild running kara before you came in, how long did it take them to learn the fights, how much gold did they spend on repair bills?

just because you hop into a raid for one night and get lucky doesn't mean its easy to get all T4.

why don't you just hop right on in there on the next prince attempt and high king too! i bet u can win first time! woot!



I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

[Beruen]

"The sky is blue!"

It's plaid, and you know it! :grin:

And yes, I really think rgirty summed it up well. Every crafting profession should bring something unique to an appropriate class, and since 2.0.1, they pretty much do. Tailoring is more noticable because it has three pieces per specialty, none of which require primal nethers.

No, I don't think that entry level raid rewards should be better than any crafted items, because that makes crafting irrelevant, except for purposes of getting the entry level raid rewards in the first place. It also ignores the fact that the majority of players aren't raiding to begin with.

[jocool]

I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

That's pretty big if's. Well, you can get all your T4 gear in a week if they drop every single boss.

[larissa]

1) Spellfire Robe
2) Spellfire Belt
3) Spellfire Gloves
4) Spellstrike Hood
5) Spellstrike Pants

hmmmm, is that five? one, two, three, four, five...yup i'm counting 5

As others have mentioned, only the first three require you to be the tailor. If you can find someone with the last two, you could get them to make if for you. Whether they are comparable to Tier 4 or Tier 5 or whatever doesn't matter, you can get them without needing to be a Tailor.

and I don't want to hear about how hard it is to craft these items because it's ridiculously easy to get 5 pieces of overpowered tailored goodness. Hell I switched over to tailoring last Friday, and I already have made the Spellfire belt.

Hmm ... what happened to making the entire set in one night? 5 days to just make the belt? How much money did that cost you? How much time devoted to just tailoring, getting the materials, getting the gold?

5 pieces that are on par with tier5...which almost makes SCC and all the tier5 cloth gear worthless.

And I love how you guys think that any guild can just hop right into SCC and get tier5...well I got news for you...getting to SCC takes months of dedication and hard work...you can't just go farm mindlessly for hours and come out with an epic.

Most guilds are not hardcore and are still working on clearing Karazhan and Gruuls/Mags. They are months away from even thinking about SCC. Casual non-tailor raiders will have to stay with crappy tier4 that is easily beat by an overnight crafted epic. Having subpar gear for that long is just not gonna happen....this is why clothies are forced into tailoring and to drop their current professions...which is the whole purpose of this thread.

Ah, so now the tailored items are on par with Tier 5 now.

And no, we're not saying _any_ guild can get into SCC and the Eye ... that's one of the main points of our arguments against you. We're saying the opposite, in fact. For most, the tailored items will be the only epics they see. They might get a few things from Karazhan, maybe be lucky enough to add on to a group going to Gruul's Lair or something. But for a large majority of players, this is it.

And so what if another player has +30 or +50 more spell damage, or +100 more heal, or whatever. Is your e-peen so large that you need to be the absolute best, have the best gear and stats so you can top the damage meters all the time? If people are in these 'better' epics already, well, doesn't that mean more loot for you? If all you care about is the epic loot, then shouldn't you be happy that you don't have to grind for months in a raid instance for it?

You only show your own lack of understanding with that statement.

Most guilds are not hardcore and are still working on clearing Karazhan and Gruuls/Mags. They are months away from even thinking about SCC. And when they finally do get to SCC, its going to take more months of hard work to actually win a piece of tier5, only to be on par with the tailored epics leaving no room for an actual upgrade.

Casual non-tailor raiders will have to stay with crappy tier4 during the SCC runs that is easily beat by an overnight crafted epic. Having subpar gear for that long is just not gonna happen....this is why clothies are forced into tailoring and to drop their current professions...which is the whole purpose of this thread.

Well, that a relief then ... thank goodness I can craft my own uber healing gloves, bracers, cloak and boots ... and don't need to think about getting rings or trinkets or a new healing necklace or upgrade my wand or get a new healing weapon and offhand ...

oh ... wait ...

/end sarcasm

And what professions are they dropping? Did you totally skip over my previous post? You can still be an Alchemist, Jewelcrafter, Enchanter ... heck, you can become a master weaponsmith and make yourself an epic weapon.

If your only point to raiding is to get Tier sets. Perhaps you should consider a different game, if other options are available that offend your sensibilities.

I agree with you to some point, the epic tailored items are really good. It actually makes the profession worth having. If it were changed to downgrade the items to entry left raid gear, who would take the profession? You want crafter items to be on part with D3 at most? Is it your desire to then get Tier 4 and laugh at all the others whose time and scedule do not allow them to even really successfully raid Karazhan?

If you don't want to take tailoring, then don't. The only thing 'forcing' you to do so is either your guild, or your own desire to be what you perceive as 'the best'.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

By Astross' logic: Everyone forced to Raid.

I pay $14.99 to play WoW, but why should I be forced to raid to get better gear? Raiders do not pay more than me to play WoW, therefore why should they get access to much better gear?

If my limited time in WoW does not matter to you, then why does it matter to me that you spend more time in a raid? Still you do not pay more per month to play.

You chose to play more hours, while I chose to do other things in life. Does that make you feel like you deserve better gear?

Raiding can be for better gear, but I view raiding as experiencing the story and lore of WoW. That's why it's dubbed PvE.



The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward.




I understand some of you like to just hop online for a few hours and get some awesome gear...but is that fair to the hours of time and effort the raider has put into learning boss fights, organizing groups, etc.? No, it is not.

[jocool]

The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward.

I understand some of you like to just hop online for a few hours and get some awesome gear...but is that fair to the hours of time and effort the raider has put into learning boss fights, organizing groups, etc.? No, it is not.

Why isn't it?

Do you pay more per month? No, you do not and probably less if you have the 6-month plan.

Effort and hours are to your choosing. Also, your statement: "The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward." is false. Work SMARTER not HARDER.

[Astross]

As others have mentioned, only the first three require you to be the tailor. If you can find someone with the last two, you could get them to make if for you. Whether they are comparable to Tier 4 or Tier 5 or whatever doesn't matter, you can get them without needing to be a Tailor.

It's called a SET BONUS, and yes you need to be a tailor to get it, and yes it's definetly worth having.

Hmm ... what happened to making the entire set in one night? 5 days to just make the belt? How much money did that cost you? How much time devoted to just tailoring, getting the materials, getting the gold?

I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

Ah, so now the tailored items are on par with Tier 5 now.

Ya I've been saying tailored epics are overpowered, where have you been?

And no, we're not saying _any_ guild can get into SCC and the Eye ... that's one of the main points of our arguments against you. We're saying the opposite, in fact. For most, the tailored items will be the only epics they see. They might get a few things from Karazhan, maybe be lucky enough to add on to a group going to Gruul's Lair or something. But for a large majority of players, this is it.

So why do players that can't even get into Gruul groups get better gear than those that can?

And so what if another player has +30 or +50 more spell damage, or +100 more heal, or whatever. Is your e-peen so large that you need to be the absolute best, have the best gear and stats so you can top the damage meters all the time? If people are in these 'better' epics already, well, doesn't that mean more loot for you? If all you care about is the epic loot, then shouldn't you be happy that you don't have to grind for months in a raid instance for it?

It's more like 250-300+ spell damage.



Thanks for your comments, let me know when you start raiding more and are experienced enough to take part in this discussion.

[Tanitha]

I understand some of you like to just hop online for a few hours and get some awesome gear...but is that fair to the hours of time and effort the raider has put into learning boss fights, organizing groups, etc.? No, it is not.

Exactly. Now look at the bigger picture, please. You seem to be indicating that you are putting hours into learning boss fights, organizing groups and so on. Six months from now or however long it takes you and your guild to begin collecting Tier 5 you will be WAY above the tailored epics. You just need to learn the patience to get there.

But six months from now, the casuals and their Tailored Epics have NOTHING better to go to. They do not have the time available for raiding 6 nights a week or whatever. (Work, children, families, etc.)

And their $15 a month is just as valuable to them as your $15 is to you. Their time in World of Warcraft is just as enjoyable as yours. And you want to take something away from them when you KNOW that in time you will surpass them by a massive amount?

It's called a SET BONUS, and yes you need to be a tailor to get it, and yes it's definetly worth having.

Not according to the internet sites. I'm not at 375 tailoring yet, but all the references to the items does not show a tailoring requirement for it.

[wisers]

The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward.

then go work hard on your raid progression and QQ less, then you can come back and show us your phat lewt.

[Astross]

jeez, am i talking to complete noobs here?

where are the raiders around here that have also been forced to change professions...

i started this thread to discuss with other people about having to switch professions and all you guys want to do is bask in the glory of you shiny tailored epics.

[jocool]

So why do players that can't even get into Gruul groups get better gear than those that can?

Because Blizzard feels that WoW should cater to the majority of the population rather than a few guilds that can get into Gruul.

There are 8+ million subscribers, how many people do you think will go to Gruul? Or any 25-man instances?

That is the reason there are so many 5-man instances and Heroics of those instances.

[Tanitha]

jeez, am i talking to complete noobs here?

where are the raiders around here that have also been forced to change professions...

i started this thread to discuss with other people about having to switch professions and all you guys want to do is bask in the glory of you shiny tailored epics.

Have a look at Death and Taxes, probably one of the top raiding guilds. Like I said earlier, a large percentage (About 50% by my estimate) of their level 70 cloth raiders DO NOT have Tailoring.

Are they noobs?

No? So maybe they don't see the need for it. And it's funny, coming out and saying we want to bask in the glory of shiny tailored epics when you want to bask in the glory of your shiny raided epics :laugh:

[larissa]

I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward.

I understand some of you like to just hop online for a few hours and get some awesome gear...but is that fair to the hours of time and effort the raider has put into learning boss fights, organizing groups, etc.? No, it is not.

My gosh ... did you ever actually level a profession from the ground up?

And no, it's not an overnight profession unless you can go from skill 1 to 375 and craft your epics, by _not_ using the gold you already have. Because guess what, it's getting the materials and gold to level up the profession that is the time sink.

After nine months of play, I finally got to 375 Enchanting last night. That's after playing for a couple of hours most every night, and for a few hours more each weekend. Why so long? Because I wasn't doing it just for myself, nor to just use up the materials and money I have to power-level the skill up. I've enchanted new gear for myself to make it more useful to me. I've enchanted gear for my friends and guildmates, using up the materials I have. I would imagine most players are much like me. They don't have the time/desire to endlessly grind out thousands of gold so they can powerlevel whatever they desire. They are actively out enjoying the other aspects of the game. Socializing with friends, doing quests, participating in instance runs. Some will go out and grind if need be, but the vast majority do not.

For my Tailoring set, I made all my own cloth, supplemented by trading about 6-8 pieces of Spellcloth and Shadowcloth. So in the end it took me about 2 months to make. It will likely take me another month or two before I gather all the materials I need for the Whitemend set, if I manage to find the patterns. So in the end, my hours of tailoring got me 3, maybe 5, pieces of gear. Your hours of raiding effort get you 16-17 pieces of gear. Now which is more fair than the other?

~~~Larissa

[rgirty]

jeez, am i talking to complete noobs here?

where are the raiders around here that have also been forced to change professions...

i started this thread to discuss with other people about having to switch professions and all you guys want to do is bask in the glory of you shiny tailored epics.

Most likely they are raiding and progressing. Not trolling a board. You continue to show your elitism here, even trying to "call out" some other raiders to your aid so that hopefully someone.. anyone will complain about a casual having better gear than you if even for a short time. This really is troll material, time to /threadquit for me.

You know what everyone in this thread is saying is true you just don't want to admit the facts.

People that don't want to get the best gear for themselves to further progression = lazy and not hardcore at all.

People that want to complain that for the next 6-8 weeks their t4 won't be better than crafted epics that they themselves said they could get overnight should they want to do it show even less of an effort to help out their raid and progression.

Good luck all, nothing more to say here.

/threadquit.

[mesonm]

"The sky is blue!"

Except at night...

:grin:

jeez, am i talking to complete noobs here?

where are the raiders around here that have also been forced to change professions...

i started this thread to discuss with other people about having to switch professions and all you guys want to do is bask in the glory of you shiny tailored epics.

Actually, if you define noob as "everyone who disagrees with Astross", you may be correct....

We are discussing the subject...You just fail to be open minded.

[mesonm]

delete me

:grin:

[unbdm]

I estimate it will take my casual play (3-4 hrs / night, 5-6 nights per week) at least 3 weeks (likely 4 weeks) to level tailering from 300 to 375 and craft PMC set. Far from overnight.

Barry

[larissa]

It's called a SET BONUS, and yes you need to be a tailor to get it, and yes it's definetly worth having.

Sure it's worth having, that's why it's there, and why people who tailor make it. What's the point of specializing and making epics that you won't use?

Ya I've been saying tailored epics are overpowered, where have you been?

Well, you started out saying that the Tailored epics were better than Tier 4. Now you're making it out that they are equal if not better than Tier 5.

So why do players that can't even get into Gruul groups get better gear than those that can?

How is your time raiding any more 'important' than another person's time PvPing, or playing content that do have time for?

It's more like 250-300+ spell damage.

Actually, a quick look at the Tier 4 set and the Tailored epic shows a +75 damage bonus advantage to the tailored set. It goes down to +65 if you socket correctly.

Keeping the tailored over the Tier 4, you also miss out on:

+80 stamina (+68 if you socket the tailored set correctly)
+72 intellect
+73 spirit

You seriously consider +65 spell damage, most of which does not include Frost, to be worth 800 health, 1080 mana and about 18 mp5?

Thanks for your comments, let me know when you start raiding more and are experienced enough to take part in this discussion.

Oooh, look, it's trying to insult me now due to lack of experience. Good show.

~~~Larissa

[theshard]

I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

You didn't get that much gold overnight though.

[Beruen]

jeez, am i talking to complete noobs here?

No, you're talking to people that don't agree with your opinion. There is a difference.

where are the raiders around here that have also been forced to change professions...

Maybe it's not as common a set of people as you think? Not everyone raids, and not everyone that raids has been forced to change professions.

The more time and effort you put into something the greater your reward.

I can agree with that. Where we disagree is you dismiss ALL of the effort it takes to grind to 375 tailoring and grind the mats needed for a complete BoP tailoring set. All because it could be bought with gold. I don't know about post-expansion, but I know that before the expansion came out, there were guilds that would sell you a slot in their raid. Applying the same logic, the effort of raiding should be dismissed. Me, I'm not in the mood to dismiss either effort.

[meikyo]

Have a look at Death and Taxes, probably one of the top raiding guilds. Like I said earlier, a large percentage (About 50% by my estimate) of their level 70 cloth raiders DO NOT have Tailoring.

Are they noobs?


Well, it's a shame you can't see what professions they previously had, I'm sure many of them don't have much use for tailoring anymore. It wouldn't suprise me if many of them were assigned to herb/alch bots also, at least up until this patch.

I would give up on this convo really, it seems like the only people that reply are those that are offended by your implications since it directly affects their shinies. There is not something for everyone between professions. Granted, I don't see how leatherworking would effect a clothie, but for example even with eng I get 1 piece...and that required a nether. This is a game that will never be finished, I would hate to give up on eng now to find out that we're getting damage trinkets or something similar. It would be nice if crafting professions could offer several things between many classes, but this game has always been pretty lopsided.

I don't recall who said it earlier, but something about how blizzard doesnt listen to the majority..or anyone for that matter, well thats total garbage. Funny thing is is this relates directly to crafted cloth. All the crafted tailor sets iirc were nerfed on the ptr and oh man the river of tears was just flooding azeroth, so they changed it back.

[DraedynLei]

good for you dude, you got lucky and got T4 gloves on your first run /golfclap

now how long was your guild running kara before you came in, how long did it take them to learn the fights, how much gold did they spend on repair bills?

just because you hop into a raid for one night and get lucky doesn't mean its easy to get all T4.

why don't you just hop right on in there on the next prince attempt and high king too! i bet u can win first time! woot!

You missed the point entirely, not that I'm surprised. The point is that T4 is not easier to obtain than your spellfire/spellstrike set. Which was the primary basis of your argument. I'm not denying that I wasn't lucky, but why should someone who is lucky be so rewarded over someone who spent weeks farming away? That's BS but you're too wrapped up in your point of view to try looking in.

Oh also, that comment about having enough gold. Conservatively we'll say it'll cost 5-7k in gold to level tailoring and to make all the mats. I'm sure we have all that sitting in the bank.

[amgyn]

Can't see those sites up at work...what are you trying to say?

me with my mostly kara gear have 10k mp, 7khp with only my buffs (1.5k healing)

on the other hand fandango with his all tailored gear is 8kmp (with int) 6~khp but 2k healing...

it all depends on how you want to play your game .. is my point.

[Qwertius]

Epic tailoring patterns you buy from a vender should not be better than tier4.

Yes that is my opinion.

Now if blizzard wants to add some tailoring patterns that drop along the way that are better than tier4, that sounds more fair to me.

But to overpower tailoring so much that it forces everyone to abandon their tier4 AND professions to lvl up tailoring should not be the case.


You are exaggarating (sp?) a lot sir

I am a casual raider. warlock. I have the good blue items available + 2 x Spellstrike tailoring items (BOE so no tailoring needed) + 1 or 2 PVP epics + a few 'crap' Karazhan items. with this gear I am able to get in spot 1,2 or on damage at Gruul and Magtheridon outdamaging most people that have full tailoring sets or better epics..

Nobody needs tailoring to be effective in raids.. I am happy with my mining and engineering

IF I had full tailoring 375 I might be able to do 3% more damage.. Whoop ti doo 3 Friggin % more damage.... I think I /gquit since I can't live with the shame of not doing that 3% damage

[Janggala]

Just by way of reference, here is a rough list of the mats required to get you to 375 tailoring:

Up to 300:
Linen Cloth x 160
Wool Cloth x 200
Silk Cloth x 760
Mageweave Cloth x 520
Runecloth x 900
Rugged Leather x 120
Coarse Thread x 75
Fine Thread x 135
Gray Dye x 5
Blue Dye x 30
Bleach x 10
Red Dye x 60
Silken Thread x 45
Heavy Silken Thread x 60
Rune Thread x 40

300-370:
Netherweave Cloth x 2160
Arcance Dust x 200
Netherweb Spider silk x 25
Rune Thread x40
Knothide Leather x20

From 370-375 you're looking at cranking out between 10-20 Imbued Netherweave Tunics/Robes (Bolt of Imbued Netherweave x6 / Netherweb Spider Silk x2 / Rune Thread x1) depending on how lucky you get.

Now take those mats and apply the appropriate costs for your server. You're going to have to spend a TON of time farming (mats or gold) to get to 375, and at that point you haven't even begun to make make any epic quality items.

Add in the time/cost of the epics (think dozens of primals & specialty cloths) and I'm not sure how you can think that the means (hours upon hours farming gold & mats) do not justify the ends. (crafted epic items)

The only way you can even make this argument is to flat out disregard anyone's time in-game being worth anything if they are not raiding.

[Astross]

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You are an experienced raider and knowledgeable about pre-SCC gear.
B) Have dropped one of your current professions to lvl up tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a casual gamer and are happy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear casuals gloating about how much better their tailored epics are over tier4.

This thread was started to discuss why so many people have dropped their current professions in order to lvl up tailoring because tier4 and pre-SCC gear is severely underclassed.

[unbdm]

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You are an experienced raider and knowledgeable about pre-SCC gear.
B) Have dropped one of your current professions to lvl up tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a casual gamer and are happy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear casuals gloating about how much better their tailored epics are over tier4.

This thread was started to discuss why so many people have dropped their current professions in order to lvl up tailoring because tier4 and pre-SCC gear is severely underclassed.

you're changing the scope of your thread, you started with three questions, that have been debated. You have very good points, but it seems most don't agree with you. Forgive me for not having read the entire thread, but have you leveled tailering? it's a ton of work, I passed on a kara spot to spend what is going to turn out to be the better part of a month leveling tailering (hate being shadow spec priest, with mostly +heal gear) grinding for a month, but it's the most sure fire way I can see to up my gear in a substantial way.

Best regards, and hopefully when you get to T5 you will be satisfied with the gear progression levels. As a casual that isn't sure if I'll fit into raiding or not, I'm glad Blizz gave the opportunity for decent epics (I'm not just cheering becasue this works for me, I'm objectively stating that I think addressing this part of their client base is good, not bad, although I realize it limits the hard core raiders ability to distinguish himself from somebody that doesnt' raid, at least at the T4 level).

[Steamboat]

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You are an experienced raider and knowledgeable about pre-SCC gear.
B) Have dropped one of your current professions to lvl up tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a casual gamer and are happy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear casuals gloating about how much better their tailored epics are over tier4.

This thread was started to discuss why so many people have dropped their current professions in order to lvl up tailoring because tier4 and pre-SCC gear is severely underclassed.

Oh good! I qualify to post. I'm so excited that I have permission now, I can hardly decide what to say.

I dropped Jewelcrafting to take up tailoring, and I did it solely to make the Frozen Shadoweave set. It took me roughly three weeks to go from 0 tailoring skill up to 375 and then make all 3 pieces of FSW. It cost roughly 3k gold, but I also spent a lot of time farming mats. A lot.

I was very happy to do it, I didn't feel forced. My guild would in no way disallow me from raiding if I did not have the FSW set.

You are saying that it's too easy for me to get these epics? There are only 2 DPS casters in our 10 man Kara group. I wish the FSW set was a Kara drop instead of a BoP tailoring pattern, I bet I would have had it sooner and I know I'd be 3k richer.

[Astross]

I dropped Jewelcrafting to take up tailoring, and I did it solely to make the Frozen Shadoweave set.

Do you feel like you were 'practically forced' to go tailoring? Not forced by your guild or by expectations of others, but rather by your own will to get the best obtainable gear.

How do you feel about dropping your profession in order to get these sought after epics?

It took me roughly three weeks to go from 0 tailoring skill up to 375 and then make all 3 pieces of FSW. It cost roughly 3k gold, but I also spent a lot of time farming mats. A lot.

I started Tailoring this last Friday, as of last night I hit 375 and already have my spellfire belt. Took 5 days...and if I had lots of gold I could have had all the tailored epic equipped in less than an hour.

This is what irritates me...someone with enough gold can simply buy their way to gear that is on par with tier5 and have all the epics equiped in hardly no time at all.

You are saying that it's too easy for me to get these epics? There are only 2 DPS casters in our 10 man Kara group. I wish the FSW set was a Kara drop instead of a BoP tailoring pattern, I bet I would have had it sooner and I know I'd be 3k richer.

I wish these tailored patterns were dropped in Gruuls/Mags...while some slightly less overpowered (Kara equivalent) patterns were availble via vender. This would make the casuals happy, because they could craft reasonably good gear and also make the hard work and dedication of raiders worthwhile. This seems like it would be more fair to everyone.

[Steamboat]

Do you feel like you were 'practically forced' to go tailoring? Not forced by your guild or by expectations of others, but rather by your own will to get the best obtainable gear.

How do you feel about dropping your profession in order to get these sought after epics?

I started Tailoring this last Friday, as of last night I hit 375 and already have my spellfire belt. Took 5 days...and if I had lots of gold I could have had all the tailored epic equipped in less than an hour.


I guess I feel "practically forced" to go tailoring in the same way that someone who wins the lottery feels "practically forced" to drive to the lottery and turn it in to get the money.

As far as how I felt about dropping my profession, it wasn't an issue for me because I was at only at ~150 Jewelcrafting which I took up at the start of the BC.

Your last statement is the one that boggles me. If you went 0 to 375 tailoring in 5 days, you absolutely HAD to have done one of three things:

1) Farm cloth 10 hours a day.
2) Spend a metric tonne of gold buying all the cloth available on the AH
3) Had all your bank slots and bank bags filled with nothing but stacks of netherweave, and also a bank alt or two with their banks filled with stacks of runecloth of netherweave.

I guess what I'm saying is that any one of those 3 things requires a huge time commitment, probably equal or greater than a time commitment to raiding. Which is what, in my mind, makes it just fine for tailored epics to be on par with T4.

If your argument is that it doesn't require the skill that raiding for the gear requires, I disagree. It hasn't really taken much skill for my warlock to clear Kara. Stand in the right place and push some buttons. The healers and tanks are the ones with the skill.

[Astross]

I guess I feel "practically forced" to go tailoring in the same way that someone who wins the lottery feels "practically forced" to drive to the lottery and turn it in to get the money.

As far as how I felt about dropping my profession, it wasn't an issue for me because I was at only at ~150 Jewelcrafting which I took up at the start of the BC.

Your last statement is the one that boggles me. If you went 0 to 375 tailoring in 5 days, you absolutely HAD to have done one of three things:

1) Farm cloth 10 hours a day.
2) Spend a metric tonne of gold buying all the cloth available on the AH
3) Had all your bank slots and bank bags filled with nothing but stacks of netherweave, and also a bank alt or two with their banks filled with stacks of runecloth of netherweave.

I guess what I'm saying is that any one of those 3 things requires a huge time commitment, probably equal or greater than a time commitment to raiding. Which is what, in my mind, makes it just fine for tailored epics to be on par with T4.

If your argument is that it doesn't require the skill that raiding for the gear requires, I disagree. It hasn't really taken much skill for my warlock to clear Kara. Stand in the right place and push some buttons. The healers and tanks are the ones with the skill.



I probably farmed a total of 12 hours tops (over the course of 4 days) for netherweave and netherweb spider silk. Spent about 1000g. Had about 10 stack of netherweave and 5 stacks or arcane dust in the back when i started. I don't buy your arguement about how difficult it is to lvl tailoring, cuz its pretty damn easy and fast.

How can u say raiding doesn't take much skill and all you have to do is stand there and push buttons. Organizing a group of people, instructing them what to do, learning boss fights, perfecting strats is much more difficult and time consuming than farming. Farming just takes mindless button mashing...raiding does not.

Regardless how hard it is to farm cloth or farm gold to buy cloth...It is still possible to get 5 epic tailored pieces in less than an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything on the AH...and for this reason alone is why these tailored epics should not be better than tier4. It is not possible for someone to raid and obtain 5 pieces of tier4 in less than an hour or even a week. If you get extremely lucky (with all members of the raid agreeing to give up the tier4 token to you, and considering the right tier4 token actually drops for you, and clearing Karazhan, Gruul's, and Mags to get all the necessary tier4 tokens) it would take much longer than one hour. I'd estimate 2 weeks is the fastest possible time you could actually do this.

I noticed that you said the tailored epics are on par with tier4. If that was the case then I would not even be arguing this point. The tailored epics are more on the lines of being on par with tier5 and are substantially better than tier4.

[Tanitha]

I noticed that you said the tailored epics are on par with tier4. If that was the case then I would not even be arguing this point. The tailored epics are more on the lines of being on par with tier5 and are substantially better than tier4.

That seems a bit ... off. I wouldn't want to call you a liar or anything, but it seems as if that might just be a little exagguration. Look at what Larissa posted:

Actually, a quick look at the Tier 4 set and the Tailored epic shows a +75 damage bonus advantage to the tailored set. It goes down to +65 if you socket correctly.

Keeping the tailored over the Tier 4, you also miss out on:

+80 stamina (+68 if you socket the tailored set correctly)
+72 intellect
+73 spirit

You seriously consider +65 spell damage, most of which does not include Frost, to be worth 800 health, 1080 mana and about 18 mp5?

So what is roughly (Assuming an average of about +1500 damage) 0.05% additional damage makes it better than the (Assuming 8000hp) 1% bonus health, and (Assuming 10000 mana) 1% bonus mana and the 18mp5?

And that puts it on par with Tier 5? :laugh:

Oh good! I qualify to post. I'm so excited that I have permission now, I can hardly decide what to say.

*laughs softly* See, that's the problem with posting in a public forum. Atross cannot forbid anyone from posting here. If he wants to do that, he needs to go to his Guild forum where he can enforce the rules. But by posting it here, he has opened it up for a community discussion.

[Astross]

That seems a bit ... off. I wouldn't want to call you a liar or anything, but it seems as if that might just be a little exagguration. Look at what Larissa posted:



So what is roughly (Assuming an average of about +1500 damage) 0.05% additional damage makes it better than the (Assuming 8000hp) 1% bonus health, and (Assuming 10000 mana) 1% bonus mana and the 18mp5?

And that puts it on par with Tier 5? :laugh:



larissas numbers are way off


compare the spell damage of a full set of tier 4 and a full set of tailored epics (3 spellfire, 2 spellstrike)

[Tanitha]

larissas numbers are way off

Post the correct numbers, please?

[Astross]

Post the correct numbers, please?

can't, i'm at work and the websense devil is blocking me!

[Tanitha]

can't, i'm at work and the websense devil is blocking me!

From a Warlock perspective it seems roughly equivalent. Roughly. Look at the following, this includes and assumes you're getting full socket bonus on all items, but I haven't socketed gems into it. I've bolded where each "set" wins out.

For a Warlock wearing full Frozen Shadowweave with Spellstrike (5 pieces total):
Armour: 734
Stamina: 102
Intellect: 64
+Damage: 92
+Shadow: 179
+Frost: 179 (Useless for the Warlock, but anyway)
Crit Rating: +50
Hit Rating: +47
Bonus: Heals 2% of damage done, Chance to increase damage by 92 for 10 seconds.

For a Warlock wearing Tier 4 (5 pieces total):
Armour: 821
Stamina: 189
Intellect: 157
+Damage: 207
+Shadow: 0
+Frost: 0
Crit Rating: 66
Hit Rating: 48
Bonus: Chance to grant 135 bonus damage for 15 seconds off Shadow / Fire spells. Increase duration of Corruption and Immolate by 3 seconds. (Corruption = +157 damage off that spell, Immolate = +123 damage off that spell for the increased duration which has no chance to improve it)

Which set of bonuses are better depends on personal preference. I'd be hard pressed to choose between the two. Now that only looks at the difference between Warlock Tier 4 and a Warlock specializing in Shadowweave Tailoring.

Which one looks better to you?

[Steamboat]

Regardless how hard it is to farm cloth or farm gold to buy cloth...It is still possible to get 5 epic tailored pieces in less than an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything on the AH...

And if there weren't raid timers you could get 5 epic pieces pretty quick too. But the reality is that there are raid timers, the AH doesn't always everything you need, and when it does you spend lots of gold to get it, which DOES take a lot of time to farm.

If the AH had everything for sale that would allow you to go from 0 to 375 tailoring AND the mats for the 3 pieces of spellfire and 2 pieces of spellstrike, the price to buy all of that would be astronomical (at least on my server.) And unless you are buying your gold, you spent a LONG time to get that much gold, and I think these sets are fair compensation for that effort.

I wish I wasn't at work so I could add up what that cost would be. But just off the top of my head it seems like the cost would have to be near 8 to 10k gold based on my server prices.

Prices on my server:

Stack of Netherweave: 4g
Spellcloth: 55g
Primal Water: 23g
Primal Fire: 25g
Primal Mana: 25g
Arcane Dust: 2g
Netherweb Spidersilk: 4g
I'm not sure about primal might

Anyway using the tailoring numbers that Janggala posted, the price just to go from 300-370 tailoring on my server is 952g. I went from 370-375 making 5 arcanoweave robes, and the mats for those on my server cost 88g, so 88*5 = 440, so 300-375 on my server costs 1392g.

That's the easy part. 1392g doesn't just rain out of the sky. When I farm Wizard Row (which is my best gold/hr) I make roughly 120g/hr. That's 11.6 hours to make the gold to buy the mats that only take you from 300-375 tailoring and give you ZERO epic tailored pieces.

[Beruen]

Adding all 5 pieces together gives a difference of 73 damage, though the Spellfire set bonus adds a fair bit on top of that (7% of int added as +damage). The Spellstrike set bonus (which does require tailoring, though you can wear the set without tailoring) has a chance of adding another 92 damage.

However, you're now talking about giving up more INT(90 more) and STA (105 more). You're also giving up a meta gem slot, but that was true in the original three piece comparison.

Edit: This is comparing Spellfire/Spellstrike to the Mage T4 set.

[Tanitha]

Adding all 5 pieces together gives a difference of 73 damage, though the Spellfire set bonus adds a fair bit on top of that (7% of int added as +damage). The Spellstrike set bonus (which does require tailoring, though you can wear the set without tailoring) has a chance of adding another 92 damage.

However, you're now talking about giving up more INT(90 more) and STA (105 more). You're also giving up a meta gem slot, but that was true in the original three piece comparison.

Edit: This is comparing Spellfire/Spellstrike to the Mage T4 set.

So you lose 73 damage out of how much, roughly? A reasonably well geared mage should have somewhere in the +1000 - +1500 range, shouldn't they? (I don't know, I'm not a mage) The +90 INT and +105 STA seem a bit more valuable.

If you had the choice, which one would you pick?

compare the spell damage of a full set of tier 4 and a full set of tailored epics (3 spellfire, 2 spellstrike)

For which class? And why do you want to restrict it to only spell damage when there is STA, INT, SPI, +Hit rating, +Crit Rating, Set Bonuses and the gem sockets factoring into it as well?

[rgirty]

By not being an enchanter you lose +24dmg. I don't hear anyone screaming about that and the cost for that enchant is trivial, cannot be overcome by raiding higher end content and is bop.

If this entire thread is about a +73 temporary boost in damage while the +24 permanent boost is being brushed under the rug.

If I was a raiding dps caster i would be more interested in the enchanting issue.

[larissa]

Just by way of reference, here is a rough list of the mats required to get you to 375 tailoring:

300-370:
Netherweave Cloth x 2160
Arcance Dust x 200
Netherweb Spider silk x 25
Rune Thread x40
Knothide Leather x20

From 370-375 you're looking at cranking out between 10-20 Imbued Netherweave Tunics/Robes (Bolt of Imbued Netherweave x6 / Netherweb Spider Silk x2 / Rune Thread x1) depending on how lucky you get.


My server:
Stack of Netherweave = 5 gold = 540 gold
Arcance Dust = 2 gold = 400 gold
Netherweb Silk = 3-4 gold = 75 gold
Rune Thread is static, 45 silver I believe? = 20 gold
Knothide Leather = Unsure, say a conservate 2 gold a stack = 40 gold

1075 gold to 370

Say very lucky and score all 5 Imbued Tunics. I know Steamboat used Arcanoweave, but that's an instance drop, we've only got one night here, so not counting on luck of getting it to drop.

30 Imbued Netherweave = 90 bolts of Netherweave = 540 Netherweave = 135 gold
and 60 arcane dust = 120 gold
10 Netherweb = 30 gold
5 Rune Thread = 2.5 gold

+287 gold to 375

Now to make the sets:
46 Spellcloth (let's say you make all the cloths, and trade for Spellcloth) = 42
38 Primal Fire
10 Netherweb spider silk
10 Primal Mights
2 Primal Nethers

We'll say you know 10 alchemists whose transmute cooldowns are up for the Primal Mights. And no time to farm for Spellstrike Pattern, so need to purchase someone's Primal Nethers. We'll also assume cheapness, so no tips.

Spellcloth = 50 gold
Primal Fire = 25 gold
Primal Earth = 10 gold
Primal Water = 20 gold
Primal Air = 20 gold
Primal Mana = 20 gold
Primal Nether = 200 gold

42 Spellcloth = 2100 gold
48 Primal Fire = 1200 gold
10 Primal Earth = 100 gold
10 Primal Water = 200 gold
10 Primal Air = 200 gold
10 Primal Mana = 200 gold
10 Netherweb = 30 gold
2 Primal Nethers = 400 gold

= 4430 gold

So, to do it all in one night, you're looking at nearly 5800 gold, very conservatively, nevermind the cost to get to 300 tailoring or buying all the patterns. Even if all the rest costs like 500 gold, you're looking at 6300 gold _minimum_ to level in one hour.

can't, i'm at work and the websense devil is blocking me!

Good thing I took the time last night to do so.

The only problem with these numbers is that the sets aren't completely comparable. Spellfire has a belt that Tier 4 does not, whereas Tier 4 has shoulders that are not part of the Spellfire/Spellstrike set.

So the number boil down to if you wear complete Tier 4 vs. wearing complete Tailored:

+85 stamina (+850 health)
+90 intelligence (+1350 mana)
+89 spirit (~ +22 mp5)
-49 spell damage (most of which does not include frost) (though does go up to about -79, depending on Intelligence in wearing the Tailored)

Where an argument can be made is the the tailored gear comes with a large number of gem slots, twice the amount of Tier 4, though Tier 4 does get a metagem.

In Tier 5:
+107 stamina (+1070 health)
+93 intelligence (+1395 mana)
+112 spirit (~ +28 mp5)
-25 spell damage (-55)

Still, less gems slots in Tier 5, but gain a metagem slot.

For healing sets, again, Tailored set has a belt, whereas the Tiers have gloves.

In Tier 4
+112 stamina (+1120 health)
+65 intelligence (+975 mana)
+75 spirit (~ 19 mp5)
-67 healing
-31 mp5

In Tier 5
+129 stamina (+1290 health)
+44 intelligence (+660 mana)
+100 spirit (~ +25 mp5)
+45 healing
-19 mp5

Oh ... wait ... I'm not allowed to post anymore ... my bad

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

By not being an enchanter you lose +24dmg. I don't hear anyone screaming about that and the cost for that enchant is trivial, cannot be overcome by raiding higher end content and is bop.

If this entire thread is about a +73 temporary boost in damage while the +24 permanent boost is being brushed under the rug.

If I was a raiding dps caster i would be more interested in the enchanting issue.



no one is going to drop a current profession for a measly 24 spell damage...

people are dropping current professions for the enormous boost to spell damage that the tailored epics give.

[Tanitha]

So wait, let me just look at all of this as we've now got comparisons for the three cloth wearers - Priests, Warlocks Mages. And in all three cases Tier 4 gives you significant bonuses in everything BUT +damage/+heal and loses out marginally on +damage/+heal.

Sorry, but after looking at the raw numbers here I'd say any guild / person forced to drop any profession for Tailoring would be foolish to do so if they were a regular raider. If they do not raid, then yes, the tailored gear makes a lot of sense and in that instance it would be smart to take up tailoring if you wanted to be highly competitive.

[Astross]

someone put up full tier 4 mage gear spell damage and compare it to spellfire & spellstrike's spell damage.

Don't bother putting stam or intell stats, people switch to these tailored epics for one reason and one reason only, to get the most +damage you can get.

[mesonm]

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You are an experienced raider and knowledgeable about pre-SCC gear.
B) Have dropped one of your current professions to lvl up tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a casual gamer and are happy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear casuals gloating about how much better their tailored epics are over tier4.

This thread was started to discuss why so many people have dropped their current professions in order to lvl up tailoring because tier4 and pre-SCC gear is severely underclassed.

Please only post in this thread if you care to hear opinions other than your own.

I am a very experienced raider, and a tailor, and LOVE the new gear...And almost completely disagree with you.

I dropped a prof to level up tailoring because the gear looks COOL, and because it does nice damage....has nothing to do with tier 4....In fact, I have no clue how my present THREE pieces of crafted gear maps to ther 4....out of how many I wear...eight? I can't remember...

big deal...

What now?

[Astross]

Please only post in this thread if you care to hear opinions other than your own.

I am a very experienced raider, and a tailor, and LOVE the new gear...And almost completely disagree with you.

What now?

of course you disagree with me, you don't want your tailored epics that you "LOVE" to be inferior to tier4.

[mesonm]

of course you disagree with me, you don't want your tailored epics that you "LOVE" to be inferior to tier4.

You are quite a good troll....nicely done!

[meikyo]

Well, as I've said I've had a change of heart in regards to tailoring since ultimately it will be obsolete, even the tailoring patterns in BT aren't that hot and 1 out of the 2 are boe. Some day I'll drop mining and go eng/ench. Yeah, +24 damage isn't a whole lot but...it gives you a permanent edge as opposed to tailoring which is only temporary.

Looking at the arguments here, I see that money + time invested can equal out to raid time. For the casuals time and money are probably hard to come by(except they don't spend money on pots and repairs like radiers!). However this makes it easy for hardcores to take advantage of and give them a boost from the get-go. I've never been upset with the quality of the gear, it's quite obvious blizzard made some big mistakes with gear quality, and you just can't take that all away from people now that they've blown some hard earned gold. For me I was just feeling that people would overlook skill and commitment for crafted gear in regards to guild invites and raid spots, but in my time raiding I've proved this wrong(in my specific scenario)and started making my place in the guild.

p.s. Better gear can actually make a crappy mage worse.

p.s.s. You guys should stop your "qq" "troll" ect comments,it's pretty childish. The problem is is there are too many hard-headed people in this thread.

[larissa]

someone put up full tier 4 mage gear spell damage and compare it to spellfire & spellstrike's spell damage.

Don't bother putting stam or intell stats, people switch to these tailored epics for one reason and one reason only, to get the most +damage you can get.

*laughs heartily*

Wow, I don't even warrant a name now!

At any rate ... by all means, enjoy your +damage. When you die halfway through most every fight because you're a glass cannon, I'm sure the other mages in nicely buffed Tier 4 will soon top you on your precious damage meter because they actually live to the end of the fight, and have more mana to keep pumping out their oh-so-gimped damage.

I feel sad for your guild if you truly believe that your role as a mage is only about +damage.

Oh, damn, sorry, I forgot I'm just a 'dumb blonde' who doesn't have any idea what she's talking about because I've not had the chance to raid with uber elite guilds that force their members into professions and likely specs in the hopes of plowing through all the raids and get their gleaming new shinies. And thus I can't possibly understand how to compare stat and set bonuses between two pieces of gear. Sorry, I'll try to remember not to post again.

~~~Larissa

[rgirty]

no one is going to drop a current profession for a measly 24 spell damage...

people are dropping current professions for the enormous boost to spell damage that the tailored epics give.

I think you should read larissa's post.

I think you should also consider that a good dps caster will have around 1000 +dmg. 24= 2.4% of that.

If I were dps, I wouldn't like the idea of always being 2.4% behind in the dmg race.

Alchemy has little to offer other than the stone, every pot can be purchased or made.

Tailored epics will go by the wayside, the +24 is here to stay.

[Tanitha]

Don't bother putting stam or intell stats, people switch to these tailored epics for one reason and one reason only, to get the most +damage you can get.

+INT is actually very important for the Tailored gear. Their set bonus is to give you +7% of your INT as +Damage. So don't discount those stats, they play a massive role in how the numbers work out. So Astross, I worked it out. They compare as follows:

Spellfire + Spellstrike:
Armour: 690
Stamina: 44
Intellect: 62
Spirit: 0
+Damage: 92
+Fire: 170
+Arcane: 170
Crit Rating: 119
Hit Rating: 38
Penetration: 0
Bonus: Increase spell damage by 7% of total intellect, chance to increase damage by 92 for 10 seconds

Tier 4 for Mages:
Armour: 821
Stamina: 133
Intellect: 155
Spirit: 89
+Damage: 215
+Fire: 0
+Frost: 0
+Arcane: 0
Crit Rating: 61
Hit Rating: 41
Penetration: 20
Bonus: 100% chance to avoid interruption when casting Frostbolt / Fireball, Reduce cooldown on Presence of Mind by 24s, Blast Wave by 4s and Ice Block by 40s

The set bonus is arguable. It seems as if the Tier 4 set is more useful for the non-interruption chance, because if you look at the +damage they come out reasonably even.

I went one step further though. I looked up your Armory profile and worked out what your +damage would be with each gear piece. Now I might have made a mistake here, because I did not take your enchantments into account, etc. so the numbers are "rough" but as I worked it out:

With Current Gear:
+Damage: 750
+Frost: 796 (You're Frost specced, so that seems important)
+Fire: 750
+Arcane: 750

With Tailored Gear:
+Damage: 696
+Frost: 696
+Fire: 866
+Arcane: 866

This is taking the +7% of intellect damage bonus into account, with the reduced intellect from taking the Tailored gear over Tier gear.

With Tier 4:
+Damage: 792
+Frost: 792
+Fire: 792
+Arcane: 792

That's a difficult choice. Your current gear actually seems marginally better for your spec than anything else out there in pure +damage numbers :grin:

[Stigg]

Less QQ more pewpew I say.

Pre-TBC, the RotA was the tailored epics of now. You had to be through MC to even come close to the sheer beautyof RotA. Same thing now, except the tailored epics are purely damage based. The stats are horrible. And god forbid you have to use a a frosbolt while wearing the spellfire set, or a fireblast when you are wearing the Shadoweave set.

For casual players it is awesome. Blizz has allowed non-raiders to do comparative damage to the raiders. If you want to talk more about that, please go PVP for a day and get yourself an epic weapon with +1XX damage on it. Prior to the honor patch, non-raiders couldn't see something a fifth as decent as that. Post that patch, every non-raider and their grandmother was epicd out in PVPness items.

If you are in a serious raiding guild, Tier 4 will come and replace your tailored epics, tier 5 will decimate all, and by that time you will have dropped tailoring to pick up alchemy/enchanting/whatever to better yourself even more.

Less QQ I say. Play the game to have fun, dont compare yourself to others, and do what you enjoy.

[Beruen]

someone put up full tier 4 mage gear spell damage and compare it to spellfire & spellstrike's spell damage.

Are you asking someone to do that? I did.

Don't bother putting stam or intell stats, people switch to these tailored epics for one reason and one reason only, to get the most +damage you can get.

Which doesn't make it a good idea. Heck, if all you care about is +damage, I've seen some green "of fiery wrath" gear that beats every epic I've seen by that measurement for the given slot. Funny thing is, even the most fanatical "of fiery wrath" user I know has given up on it in the outlands precisely because of the lack of those stats that you dismiss.

[Tanitha]

Are you asking someone to do that? I did.

Sorry! I added some too, including what Astross would look like in terms of raw damage with each set. (Hopefully I did that correctly) It doesn't make sense to me either to discount stats. Especially as the tailored Epics give you +damage based on the amount of INT you have :laugh:

[Beruen]

Sorry! I added some too, including what Astross would look like in terms of raw damage with each set. (Hopefully I did that correctly) It doesn't make sense to me either to discount stats. Especially as the tailored Epics give you +damage based on the amount of INT you have :laugh:

Yup, and you did a more detailed job than I did, so nothing to be sorry about.

As for your analysis, since he's frost spec'ed, you might want to also compare against the Frozen Shadoweave/Spellstrike combination. He'll gain on frost damage, lose on arcane, fire, and the 7% set bonus (the Frozen Shadoweave set has a different set bonus that does nothing for DPS). Depending on his spell usage, that might be better or worse. As a frost mage, my biggest gripe about the Frozen Shadoweave is the fact that the fire/arcane sets are combined, but frost got combined with shadow, meaning that if you're frost/arcane or arcane/frost, you don't have a decent tailored set.

[Tanitha]

As for your analysis, since he's frost spec'ed, you might want to also compare against the Frozen Shadoweave/Spellstrike combination. He'll gain on frost damage, lose on arcane, fire, and the 7% set bonus (the Frozen Shadoweave set has a different set bonus that does nothing for DPS).

In that case he would look like:

Frozen Shadowweave:
+Damage: +669
+Shadow: +848
+Fire: 669
+Arcane: +669
+Frost: +848

He'd have a better Hit Rating, but half the Crit Rating. And his Stamina would be more than double what he gets with the Spellfire set. It's interesting, that looks quite tasty for a Frost Mage. The set bonus allows it to heal you for 2% of the damage you deal, so that might / might not be useful.

But I get where you are at with the Tailored sets. As a Warlock I can't see a set that will boost +Shadow and +Fire. +Frost is utterly useless as I don't even have one spell that uses Frost damage. Ah well - I've still got a few levels to go before that becomes a worry :grin:

Edit:
I just hope I didn't make a mistake somewhere in the numbers. I've been running on undiluted tea and sugar since 4am. But basically what I did was: take the current +damage, subtract what the gear you are currently wearing adds, then work out the base +damage. That becomes the baseline for all the different schools and have their own +damage added on from the new equipment. Does that sound about right?

[larissa]

Yup, and you did a more detailed job than I did, so nothing to be sorry about.

As for your analysis, since he's frost spec'ed, you might want to also compare against the Frozen Shadoweave/Spellstrike combination. He'll gain on frost damage, lose on arcane, fire, and the 7% set bonus (the Frozen Shadoweave set has a different set bonus that does nothing for DPS). Depending on his spell usage, that might be better or worse. As a frost mage, my biggest gripe about the Frozen Shadoweave is the fact that the fire/arcane sets are combined, but frost got combined with shadow, meaning that if you're frost/arcane or arcane/frost, you don't have a decent tailored set.

He's apparently making the Spellfire set, so little point in addressing the Frozen Shadoweave set, unless he plans on spending another 2000-3000 gold on making the Shadoweave set. Perhaps he plans on respeccing? *shrug*

In any case, it came down to three options for the Shadoweave:

Fire and Shadow: This would have made Warlocks world over squeal with glee, and give them absolutely no incentive to ever make anything else.

Arcane and Shadow: Could have worked, but the majority of mages seem to spec Fire or Frost, so would have probably made Mages the world ove squeal with glee, and never really have an incentive to make Shadoweave.

Frost and Shadow: Now both Warlocks and Mages have to make a decision. Plus, thematically, Shadow/Death is always seen as cold and lifeless, so Frost is a more natural match.

So this seems to be the 'fairest' way to make clothies choose a spec and set.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

Quit stalking me!!! What did you do look me up on the armory? hehe

ya im 10/0/51 right now...I wanted to test the new Arctic Winds buff.

I will be staying frost until I have all the necessary primal fires to complete spellfire and spellstrike. So by the end of the weekend I should have both sets and will respec back to 10/48/3.

And yes I do plan to make the shadoweave set eventually...I can't decide which one I like better. But I've decided to go with fire first.



Tanitha if you are comparing my current gear +damage to the tailored epics, then add the enchants I currently have on my non-tailored gear to the tailored set also, or subract the enchant, either way will give a more precise number.

Don't even use my gear as a comparison, I just want to see the base +spell damage numbers for full mage tier4 set and spellfire/spellstrike set with set bonuses included.

[jocool]

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You are an experienced raider and knowledgeable about pre-SCC gear.
B) Have dropped one of your current professions to lvl up tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a casual gamer and are happy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear casuals gloating about how much better their tailored epics are over tier4.

Please only post in this thread if...

A) You think Astross is a troll.

B) You have the actual statistic of the population that dropped their profession to lvl up Tailoring.

Nobody cares if you are a raider and are unhappy about how great tailored epics are. We don't want to hear raider gloating about how much better their epics are over tailors.


This thread was started to discuss why so many people have dropped their current professions in order to lvl up tailoring because tier4 and pre-SCC gear is severely underclassed.

You will never find out why, because you do not have the statistics of how many people dropped their current professions for tailoring.

[ExculMazhul]

I don't see how they're FORCING you to tailor, they're giving you the chance, if you don't want to take it, okay, no problem. Go get gear T4+ to try to out do it. Blizzard is NOT forcing you to take it, it's there as an opportunity. You can create a bunch of other chars and level them up in other skills.

[Astross]

I don't see how they're FORCING you to tailor, they're giving you the chance, if you don't want to take it, okay, no problem. Go get gear T4+ to try to out do it. Blizzard is NOT forcing you to take it, it's there as an opportunity. You can create a bunch of other chars and level them up in other skills.

Read the whole thread and you will understand what I mean by practically being "FORCED" into tailoring.

I know blizzard isn't forcing anyone to do anything...but when they give tailored epics tons more spell damage than tier4, they are practically "FORCING" dps clothies to switch.

[Tanitha]

I will be staying frost until I have all the necessary primal fires to complete spellfire and spellstrike. So by the end of the weekend I should have both sets and will respec back to 10/48/3.

That makes it tough if you're Fire/Arcane. I can see why you are struggling with gear selection here. Would the shorter cool downs + 100% uninterrupted Fireballs be more beneficial than +76 damage, (9.5% difference from a Tier 4 perspective) especially considering the higher mana pool and higher stamina pool? But then, factor in the crit rating from the tailored gear which is very much higher than Tier 4. Aaargh!

It's almost as if you have to go through this process, do a Kara run with the same set of guildies and see how you work out in both situations. Just looking at numbers I'd pick you'd come out roughly equal overall, but man. That's a big guess and a tough choice.

Edit:
Personally? I'd go for Tier 4. The Tailored pieces are, like Larissa posted, a choice between gimping yourself in one / another area. None really match perfectly. The Tier 4 armour will set you apart, it's "reasonable" for a while at least as the numbers show and people will know you're a raider, rather than just one of the hundred other cloth wearers. Besides, I think I'd be a very very bad person for a set of Warlock Tier 6 - Warlock gives you wingggzzzzz! :grin:

But I'm glad I only have to think about +STA and +Shadow for now :laugh: Oh well, in a few months you'll have Tier 5 and a few months on from that you'll have Tier 6. So ... all will be good in the end?

[Beruen]

So this seems to be the 'fairest' way to make clothies choose a spec and set.

Oh, I'm not whining (too much). Unless they did arcane/shadow and fire/frost, which would short everyone but the elementalists, whichever of fire or frost didn't get combined with arcane would see themselves as getting the short end of the stick. I don't think the issue is important enough to justify a fourth set, let alone six sets (including fire/shadow and fire/frost, just to cover everyone, though with that mix, I'm sure we could drop frost/shadow). I wouldn't mind seeing a weaker generic spell damage set that is otherwise on the level of the specialty sets, even if each piece required a primal nether to make.

[Astross]

Tanitha:

Most mages, including myself, don't really care about losing stamina or intellect stats...intellect is great dont get me wrong, but when have mana gems, mana pots, evocation, shadowpriest, etc. losing a little intellect isnt going to hurt.

Mages are class cannons, we get hit once and we are dead...adding a lil stamina is just going to delay the inevitable. This is why mages like to push thier +damage as high as they can get it...it is by far the best stat for a mage to have...and if that means giving up a lil intellect or stamina to get it, then so be it.

[Tanitha]

Tanitha if you are comparing my current gear +damage to the tailored epics, then add the enchants I currently have on my non-tailored gear to the tailored set also, or subract the enchant, either way will give a more precise number.

I've already closed your Armory profile, but if I remember correctly most of your enchants were +6 to all stats, +health, etc? How big of an influence over +damage would those have over the collection and how do you factor it in?

I just want to see the base +spell damage numbers for full mage tier4 set and spellfire/spellstrike set with set bonuses included.The base numbers + bonus is listed in my post above. The comparison based on your gear makes up the second part of that post. So ... on pure +Damage:

Tailored Spellfire / Spellstrike
Damage: 92 (92)
Fire: 170 (262)
Arcane: 170 (262)
Frost: 0 (92)
Shadow: 0 (92)
Holy: 0 (92)

Tier 4
Damage: 215 (215)
Fire: 0 (215)
Arcane: 0 (215)
Frost: 0 (215)
Shadow: 0 (215)
Holy: 0 (215)

Difference (Tailored perspective):
Damage -123
Fire: +47
Arcane: +47
Frost: -123
Shadow: -123
Holy: -123

That does NOT take the 7% of intellect bonus for Tailored gear into account, because you wanted to discount the other stats and look purely at +damage. Give me a number for what your intellect would be WITHOUT the gear, and I'll run the numbers for that.

Using the adjustment for your current INT (And including the unenchanted stat bonus) works out to +27 damage across the board for tailored gear.

Difference (Tailored perspective with current INT):
Damage -96
Fire: +74
Arcane: +74
Frost: -96
Shadow: -96
Holy: -96

Most mages, including myself, don't really care about losing stamina or intellect stats...intellect is great dont get me wrong, but when have mana gems, mana pots, evocation, shadowpriest, etc. losing a little intellect isnt going to hurt.

I can understand that. However, for the Tailored set +INT is very important as the set damage bonus works off that. You get more +Dmg the higher your INT is. The difference between the sets based purely off INT is +9 dmg. It doesn't seem like a whole lot, but you are generally here dealing with numbers between 9 and 50. So it's a sizeable portion of the difference.

[ExculMazhul]

Read the whole thread and you will understand what I mean by practically being "FORCED" into tailoring.

I know blizzard isn't forcing anyone to do anything...but when they give tailored epics tons more spell damage than tier4, they are practically "FORCING" dps clothies to switch.

I read your original post, I don't feel the need to read 14 more pages to "understand" what you meant. You meant what you said in the first post, so I replied to that.

[Tanitha]

I read your original post, I don't feel the need to read 14 more pages to "understand" what you meant.

Not quite, because he explains how he came to that conclusion through the rest of the thread. Only reading the first post doesn't help you contribute to what has been an evolving discussion.

I still disagree with Astross about the "being forced" even indirectly part, but I can certainly see that a Fire/Arcane specced mage has a tough choice to make in terms of short term ability, especially if they raid regularly and have a guild that needs to eke out every last +5 damage they can.

[ExculMazhul]

Well then how about this instead... You don't HAVE to tailor, you can just go straight for T5. Vee-oh-la, problem fixed. I know... I'm a genius...

[meikyo]

Well then how about this instead... You don't HAVE to tailor, you can just go straight for T5. Vee-oh-la, problem fixed. I know... I'm a genius...

Unfortunately that only applies to priests..However I'm sure in some point to their attunement to the eye/ssc they're gonna happen upon T4...oh wait yeah the attune scrolls aka healer attunes :p

It's obvious forced isn't literal, don't be absurd and try to make it seem that's what he's saying. You have to admit it does feel like blizz wants the cloth population to go in the tailor/enchant direction with the nice exclusive benefits. They just don't give much reason to do anything else, but still I would never submit!(except maybe enchanting <_<)

[ExculMazhul]

Well, all I'm saying is that if you truely want the benefits of the sets in Tailoring you should do it. There's no gun to your head, you can just go "Oh well, I'll stick with my current professions." or you can just take the profession. If you're worried about the gold cost, you can easily make it a competition with yourself. "How much gold can I make in an hour? I got 200g that hour, let's see if I can get more." etc.

[larissa]

Unfortunately that only applies to priests..However I'm sure in some point to their attunement to the eye/ssc they're gonna happen upon T4...oh wait yeah the attune scrolls aka healer attunes :p

It's obvious forced isn't literal, don't be absurd and try to make it seem that's what he's saying. You have to admit it does feel like blizz wants the cloth population to go in the tailor/enchant direction with the nice exclusive benefits. They just don't give much reason to do anything else, but still I would never submit!(except maybe enchanting <_<)

Enchanting isn't only for cloth wearers. There are +4 stats and +2 weapon damage ring enchants as well, along with the +12 spell damage/heal and +20 healing enhants. As rgirty says, there is currently nothing that can match an enchanter vs. non-enchanter in equal gear otherwise. The enchanter will always have the edge ... provided equal class, spec, race, play style and skill.

Probably because the healing/spell damage enchants are relatively small, there hasn't been much of a spot light on them. +24 spell damage seems small compared to the +70 spell damage the tailored set offers over Tier 4.

But I can see perhaps a lot of top-end raiding people taking up enchanting after Black Temple is downed, simply to edge out their stats just a little bit more. Though perhaps it's because enchants are as 'visible' as a gear set is, and so the community hasn't really twigged on to them yet.

~~~Larissa

[Beruen]

Mages are class cannons, we get hit once and we are dead...adding a lil stamina is just going to delay the inevitable. This is why mages like to push thier +damage as high as they can get it...it is by far the best stat for a mage to have...and if that means giving up a lil intellect or stamina to get it, then so be it.

Well, it's too late for this change, but what would you think of something like this? Rather than nerfing the tailoring sets, change the emphasis. I'm not sure why, but Blizzard has always spent a larger amount of a spellcaster's raiding gear budget on stats, and a larger amount of tailored epic gear on spell damage. Does this strike you as backwards?

Honestly, I'd rather be in the raiding gear if I'm in a situation where something might go wrong but still be recoverable, but I'd rather be in the crafted gear if I'm in the kind of situation where anything that goes wrong is going to spell a wipe anyway. From what little raiding I've done, I really get the impression that raiding falls into the latter category, except maybe when learning a new encounter. That may be what Blizzard is thinking, I'm not sure.

[Tanitha]

Honestly, I'd rather be in the raiding gear if I'm in a situation where something might go wrong but still be recoverable, but I'd rather be in the crafted gear if I'm in the kind of situation where anything that goes wrong is going to spell a wipe anyway.

Maybe part of a future plan? I'd be loathe to guess as to Blizzards' intent but maybe they are trying to get that shift in attitude going for what they have planned in the next expansion.

[Kyusoath]

hard work , pre SSC ? if you think kara, mag,gruul are hard work and you should be given such awesome things for doing it then i pity you.

[Beruen]

Maybe part of a future plan? I'd be loathe to guess as to Blizzards' intent but maybe they are trying to get that shift in attitude going for what they have planned in the next expansion.

No, this bias in itemization budget was going on pre-BC. Compare the Robe of the Void, Truefaith Vestments, or Robes of the Archmage to the T1 sets. All three of those are heavy on spell effect, light on stats. The epic BoP sets are just more of the same thinking, which seems to have been going on a long time.

I think they just play differently than we (as a community, not as individuals) do.

[Aswer]

So you think that levelling tailoring to 375, getting all the primals (fires, nethers, mights) and spellcloth to make 3 pieces spellfire and 2 pieces spellstrike (my set up), is in any way easier / faster than getting Kara/Gruul equipment (both of which are piss easy)?

[earindur]

hard work , pre SSC ? if you think kara, mag,gruul are hard work and you should be given such awesome things for doing it then i pity you.

zomg liek im such a hardcore raider that anyone that hasnt reached as far as mah uber guild must be a sux! :rolleyes:

[DoctorSlaps]

Congratulations to Blizzard for making a crafting profession worthwhile. Not everyone can raid and I'm glad they're catering for the general player a bit more rather than the top 1% who can play 10000 hours per week raiding. There'll be better raiding stuff out later anyway. Now stop moaning! :)

[Astross]

hard work , pre SSC ? if you think kara, mag,gruul are hard work and you should be given such awesome things for doing it then i pity you.


The work involved in organizing groups, learning boss fights, perfecting strats, and getting the whole guild well geared instead of just your selfish self, is much more work than crafting some tailored epics.

Farming gold or netherweave or primals by yourself is not hard work nor requires any teamwork or learning curve.

You can't buy your tier4...you have to work with other people and have dedicated weeks of planning, executing, learning, and perfecting strats.

I've said it once and I guess I have to say it again...but when you can literally buy your way to 5 tailored epics that are better than teir4 in under an hour...something needs to be fixed.

[DrOsmius]

I understand some of you like to just hop online for a few hours and get some awesome gear...but is that fair to the hours of time and effort the raider has put into learning boss fights, organizing groups, etc.? No, it is not.


To argue about "fairness" in what is essentially a method for a company to make money is not sensible. I understand the basis for your feelings, but the game is NOT designed to have a linear relationship between effort/time and reward...it is designed to maximize the total incentive of its customers to keep paying their monthly fees.

So your argument becomes not really "it isn't fair" but "its not what I want". And in this, Blizz feels that they will make far more money by giving a larger amount of customers some goodies, that incentivize them to keep paying. Fairness is just not an appropriate concept to bring to bear.

PS. I main heal for raids, and am unwilling to become tailor...i like my herb/alchy lifestyle.

[Astross]

To argue about "fairness" in what is essentially a method for a company to make money is not sensible. I understand the basis for your feelings, but the game is NOT designed to have a linear relationship between effort/time and reward...it is designed to maximize the total incentive of its customers to keep paying their monthly fees.

So your argument becomes not really "it isn't fair" but "its not what I want". And in this, Blizz feels that they will make far more money by giving a larger amount of customers some goodies, that incentivize them to keep paying. Fairness is just not an appropriate concept to bring to bear.

PS. I main heal for raids, and am unwilling to become tailor...i like my herb/alchy lifestyle.


I understand Blizzard is concerned with making money...but to say that are not concerned about game balance and fairness is completly absurd.

[DrOsmius]

I understand Blizzard is concerned with making money...but to say that are not concerned about game balance and fairness is completly absurd.

I don't think I did. Of course they are concerned with it. But they are not "fixated" on it, in that they would consider some "unfairness" if it meant making more money.

I would think that the fact that the majority of the posters in this thread support the status quo would imply that the majority of customers prefer it, and however you feel about the "fairness", it seems that more customers prefer the product they are purchasing now. This would seem to be blizz's intention.

I am on your side with regards to effort. Yes, it does take a lot of time to farm the money and level tailoring, and yes, organizing & running successful raids also requires a lot of time, but I will side with you that the amount of coordination, leadership, organization etc involved in successful raiding is not something that has any equivalence in farming. I think you could even get rgirty to admit to that, considering all the effort he is doing to get his small & courageous guild to ramp up. I've been blessed in the past to latch onto an organized group, and when there was a split at BC, the side that had all the leaders/organizers had successful raiding, and the other side had squat.

So yeah, raid rewards require "more", and therefore ought to have better rewards, but alas & woe, raiders are a smaller percentage of customers. They have a bigger impact on the whole game for lots of subtle reasons (some, in the same way that increased caliber of the NBA increases the participation of school kids in basketball), but the non-raiders happen to be the largest customer base, and it makes more financial sense to have these "overpowerawred" epics for them.

Anyhow, I do see your point, though in general I side with your critics.

[rgirty]

He continues to troll you guys pretty good. I have threadquit and a lot of you should do the same.

None of you are going to convince him or change his "poor me I have to drop a profession" attitude.

He's not going to stop looking down his nose at casuals with his elitist raider attitude.

He's not going to change his opinion no matter how many people come along and tell him that he is wrong.

He's simply here to troll, and bring up points that have been refuted and are not valid time and again.

Saying something is "fair" is based on a single person's view point.

You can't change that.

What you guys are arguing is exactly like this argument.

Person A "sushi is great"

Person B "sushi is terrible"

Argument ensues.

This is exactly the point you guys are arguing with him, and myself did to an extent until I realized that the OP is simply throwing a temper tantrum because the people he's been looking down upon all Pre-bc have a temporary leg up on him. He's infuriated that he has to take up tailoring to become comparable with them and bring the best to his raid.

Many of you would say, "its a game, if you really want to be the best pick the profession that provides the best" while he is going to make post after post about how it isn't fair that casuals even have access to great gear. They should get gear that will never surpass the simplest raid drop and all the good patterns should be locked away in raid dungeons, everything great must only go to the raiders or he is going to cry that it is unfair.

He has to understand that his attitude of "me me me" what I do is hard I should have the best does not allow him to see that what he is suggesting is unfair to others, he's unable to see the other side.

If it were a permanent change, then yes it would be unfair. However the tailored epics are going to go by the wayside as guilds progress.

To summarize, he's just trolling you folks to argue. Thats why he keeps posting argumentative one liners and quotes. He has made 0 posts of any substantial size and has brought 0 comparisons of gear to the table other than say degrading things to everyone else such as.

"you just want to enjoy your shiny tailored epix"

"my mom can farm your tailored epix"

"it isn't fair"

Never has he made a valid substantial fact driven point, he simply keeps coming back and offering his point of view with 0 logic that keeps this thread going.

I really am threadquitting now, he's getting what he wants out of this by simply arguing a nonsubstantiated point of view that is simply opinion based.

[Astross]

I don't think I did. Of course they are concerned with it. But they are not "fixated" on it, in that they would consider some "unfairness" if it meant making more money.

I would think that the fact that the majority of the posters in this thread support the status quo would imply that the majority of customers prefer it, and however you feel about the "fairness", it seems that more customers prefer the product they are purchasing now. This would seem to be blizz's intention.

I am on your side with regards to effort. Yes, it does take a lot of time to farm the money and level tailoring, and yes, organizing & running successful raids also requires a lot of time, but I will side with you that the amount of coordination, leadership, organization etc involved in successful raiding is not something that has any equivalence in farming. I think you could even get rgirty to admit to that, considering all the effort he is doing to get his small & courageous guild to ramp up. I've been blessed in the past to latch onto an organized group, and when there was a split at BC, the side that had all the leaders/organizers had successful raiding, and the other side had squat.

So yeah, raid rewards require "more", and therefore ought to have better rewards, but alas & woe, raiders are a smaller percentage of customers. They have a bigger impact on the whole game for lots of subtle reasons (some, in the same way that increased caliber of the NBA increases the participation of school kids in basketball), but the non-raiders happen to be the largest customer base, and it makes more financial sense to have these "overpowerawred" epics for them.

Anyhow, I do see your point, though in general I side with your critics.



From the start, Blizzard should have made those tailored patterns on par with Karazhan loot...casuals would have been more than happy with that and the "large customer" base you are talking about would have been satisfied. The only reason blizzard can't do that now is because eveyone has already paid for a Mercedes they can't take it away and give them a Ford Escort.

What is happening now is that raiding Karazhan/gruuls/mags has almost become not worth it...especially when you can just craft some better items in hardly no time at all.

[larissa]

The work involved in organizing groups, learning boss fights, perfecting strats, and getting the whole guild well geared instead of just your selfish self, is much more work than crafting some tailored epics.

Farming gold or netherweave or primals by yourself is not hard work nor requires any teamwork or learning curve.

You can't buy your tier4...you have to work with other people and have dedicated weeks of planning, executing, learning, and perfecting strats.

I've said it once and I guess I have to say it again...but when you can literally buy your way to 5 tailored epics that are better than teir4 in under an hour...something needs to be fixed.

Did you miss the posts where we told you that to 'buy' your tailored epics takes some 6300 gold? You can farm that in an hour?

And no, don't go into saying that you have stocks of cloth and Primals stashed away and a ton of gold already before switching professions. That is the 'cost' we Tailors have to pay to get our 'unfair' epics. Whether we have gathered all the materials ourselves, or bought them, that is what it costs us. Now true, you do gain some money back by selling what you make, but that takes time unless you vendor it, and then it'll only be a fraction of the cost. Plus, 6300 is a minimum. You will likely use more resources up in getting to 375, because not every single item you make is going to give you a skill up, thus the cost goes up.

So ... I've heard 30 gold tauted as a repair cost for a night's raiding (not taking away the coin and loot you pick up along the way). That gives you 210 nights of raiding to get your Tier 4 to match the Tailored epics. (Yes, I said Tier 4, as I am firmly of the belief that they are on par with each other, despite your cries that it's only about +damage).

That gives you 7 months of raiding _every_ _single_ _night_. If you haven't gotten your Tier 4 by then, then maybe you'd have something to complain about ... but it still wouldn't be about 'overpowered' tailored epics.

If Primals dropped off instance bosses as well, you could bet that I wouldn't be grinding them ever again. I'm sure a lot of other people would agree. Farming is a long, boring process that I can't imagine anyone enjoys. I'd much rather take 4 times as long to gather the same amount of Primals in an instance setting. Because it's fun to group with other people, and to co-ordinate each fight, and to learn how to fight a boss so you can win and get your just reward! Just because you are one of the few who have the time, dedication and luck to be in a 'hard core' raiding guild, shouldn't mean everyone else is out of luck, gg, kthxbai.

I'm sorry you feel this burning need to have the absolute maximum +damage you can find. I'm sorry you feel that the Tier 4 gear isn't to your tastes. But you're not raiding just for your Tier 4 ... that's 5 slots. You've got another ten or so gear slots to fill with your nice purple epic drops. You've got epic gems to socket your new shinies with. You get to experience content that the majority of players will probably never actually see for themselves.

And in the end, for you, it's transitional gear. You're not going to keep your Tier 4, even if it was better than tailored. For the bulk of players, this is it, the best gear they'll see.

~~~Larissa

[wisers]

From the start, Blizzard should have made those tailored patterns on par with Karazhan loot...casuals would have been more than happy with that and the "large customer" base you are talking about would have been satisfied. The only reason blizzard can't do that now is because eveyone has already paid for a Mercedes they can't take it away and give them a Ford Escort.

What is happening now is that raiding Karazhan/gruuls/mags has almost become not worth it...especially when you can just craft some better items in hardly no time at all.

Why don't you send blizzard a nice e-mail telling them all about your raid woes. I'm sure they'll send back something like "use t4". They put both sets of gear into the game, enabled one to be attained through raiding, and one through world PvE. Now your the one not using the raiding set to raid, qq more?

[ExculMazhul]

Okay, let's see... Astross said that people are ONLY picking up tailoring for the +24 damage difference... I think if I gave up around 800 health and around 60 int (900 mana) for just 24 more damage, I'd call myself an idiot. Doesn't matter which class you are, 24 Spell Damage < 800 health alone.

[Astross]

@rgirty: Good thing you threadquit because this thread is for raiders who have dropped their current profession in order to make tailored epics...and seeing that you have not done so, your input into this conversation is not valued.

[larissa]

@rgirty: Good thing you threadquit because this thread is for raiders who have dropped their current profession in order to make tailored epics...and seeing that you have not done so, your input into this conversation is not valued.

I don't know how you can say that. rgirty was the one who brought up the fact that Enchanting is actually even more 'overpowered' than Tailoring. And yet you don't seem to think that Blizzard is 'forcing' people to take up Enchanting. Since it's only spell damage you care about, well, Enchanting will give you +24 spell damage _more_ than any non-enchanter can possibly get, ever.

So what you really wanted was a bunch of people going 'yeah, you're right, sux we have to take tailoring, feel for ya man.'

If you just want to talk to yourself, why post on a forum?

Okay, let's see... Astross said that people are ONLY picking up tailoring for the +24 damage difference... I think if I gave up around 800 health and around 60 int (900 mana) for just 24 more damage, I'd call myself an idiot. Doesn't matter which class you are, 24 Spell Damage < 800 health alone.

No, the +24 spell damage came up in regards to the Enchanter only ring enchants. There is one for +12 spell damage to a ring, and since you can have 2 rings = 24 spell damage. The argument being that in equal gear, the Enchanter will always have better.

The main argument has basically boiled down to if about +80 spell damage (depends on intelligence) is worth +85 stamina, +90 intelligence and +89 spirit.

But don't bother actually saying anything, as you have to be a hard core raider who has given up a profession to take tailoring to get crafted epics to even be 'allowed' to post in this thread. Oh, and it helps if you feel that the tailored epics completely blow away Tier 4 and Tier 5, and that you can start Tailoring from level 1 and get your 5 pieces of 'overpowered' tailored epics in about an hour of game time. Otherwise you'll most likely be considered a noob and don't know what you're talking about.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

Why don't you send blizzard a nice e-mail telling them all about your raid woes. I'm sure they'll send back something like "use t4". They put both sets of gear into the game, enabled one to be attained through raiding, and one through world PvE. Now your the one not using the raiding set to raid, qq more?

This is the whole purpose of this thread...have you even been reading?

An enormous mass of raiders, including myself obviously, have been "practically forced" into tailoring because the gear we obtain from raiding is severely inferior to that of the tailored epics.

It would be nice to use the raiding set to raid...that is what I've been asking for this entire thread...but when tailored epics are far superior, it would be stupid to use anything else.

[ExculMazhul]

No, the +24 spell damage came up in regards to the Enchanter only ring enchants. There is one for +12 spell damage to a ring, and since you can have 2 rings = 24 spell damage. The argument being that in equal gear, the Enchanter will always have better.

The main argument has basically boiled down to if about +80 spell damage (depends on intelligence) is worth +85 stamina, +90 intelligence and +89 spirit.

But don't bother actually saying anything, as you have to be a hard core raider who has given up a profession to take tailoring to get crafted epics to even be 'allowed' to post in this thread. Oh, and it helps if you feel that the tailored epics completely blow away Tier 4 and Tier 5, and that you can start Tailoring from level 1 and get your 5 pieces of 'overpowered' tailored epics in about an hour of game time. Otherwise you'll most likely be considered a noob and don't know what you're talking about.

~~~Larissa

*Shrug* As I saw it earlier, I thought it was around 30ish spell damage, or 80 stam and 60 int. Must've misread =D. Also, if people were to actually listen to rules like that, I'm sure that the world would be much different today =D. Listening to him is nothing to take serious, he believes he's right, and will NOT take any other word other than his, unless they're 100% agreeing with him. Hmm... Wait a minute... This reminds me of a guy with a very small mustache that had a weird symbol on his arm... Meh, my imagination must be running off again.

[larissa]

This is the whole purpose of this thread...have you even been reading?

An enormous mass of raiders, including myself obviously, have been "practically forced" into tailoring because the gear we obtain from raiding is severely inferior to that of the tailored epics.

Numbers please, some real examples at least .. beyond yourself and any alts you may have in the same 'predicament'.

It would be nice to use the raiding set to raid...that is what I've been asking for this entire thread...but when tailored epics are far superior, it would be stupid to use anything else.

Only you believe the tailored pieces are far superior. You have some agree that they are better than Tier 4. You have a number of others who believe they are roughly on par with each other.

*Shrug* As I saw it earlier, I thought it was around 30ish spell damage, or 80 stam and 60 int. Must've misread =D. Also, if people were to actually listen to rules like that, I'm sure that the world would be much different today =D. Listening to him is nothing to take serious, he believes he's right, and will NOT take any other word other than his, unless they're 100% agreeing with him. Hmm... Wait a minute... This reminds me of a guy with a very small mustache that had a weird symbol on his arm... Meh, my imagination must be running off again.

There's been a lot of numbers thrown around. I just saw the +24, and thought that maybe that's where you picked it up from.

Oh, and yes, my last statement was actually dunked and soaked in pure, 100% undiluted sarcasm. And I'm not much for following his 'rules' either, since I haven't raided, and I was one of the unfortunate masses of cloth wearers who actually had Tailoring as a profession before hitting 70. And yet here I am, continually bashing my head on the wall ...

But it's unfair to compare him to such a notorious figure. True, he is dead set in his belief the tailored epics are better than Tier 4 and even Tier 5. Nothing we say or prove will desuade him of that. He's firmly of the belief that +spell damage is all that matters in this game. If anything, compare him to a horse with blinders on, and thus can only see one thing, and nothing else.

~~~Larissa

[Wasabee]

@ the OP

The only thing that's forcing you to pick-up tailoring is your mindset that the gear is better and you "have to have it".

The time/cost to get the epic crafted gear is worse then raiding (in a guild that can progress weekly). Also it comes at a heavy Price. We have nothing to sell to make more money (like pots). One proffesion slot is "tied up" because of the gear. So Q_Q about how it's unfair...or work around it by Raiding, farming mats for your proffesion and craft and sell your goods.

[rgirty]

I was unaware of godwins law, I did it myself earlier and noticed that it just popped its head up here as well!

[Wasabee]

I was unaware of godwins law, I did it myself earlier and noticed that it just popped its head up here as well!

ROFL

...This reminds me of a guy with a very small mustache that had a weird symbol on his arm... Meh, my imagination must be running off again.

He did't use the N word or the H word...

...does he still lose credibility?

[Astross]

This thread is about Tailoring...not about enchanting...

Flocks of dps casters are not dropping professions in order to pick up enchanting like they are for tailoring...which leads to the purpose of this thread...why is tailoring so overpowered that so many people are switching over?

I can not provide numbers on how many people are dropping professions for Tailoring...that's impossible. But I do know that an enormous amount of mages/warlocks/shadowpriests use tailored epics and I know that many of them have only picked up tailoring to get those epics. Which means they dropped one of their current professions.

[ExculMazhul]

I know it was sarcasm Larissa, I'm a very sarcastic person. That's part of the reason why I used the last sentence =).

[wisers]

This thread is about Tailoring...not about enchanting...

Flocks of dps casters are not dropping professions in order to pick up enchanting like they are for tailoring...which leads to the purpose of this thread...why is tailoring so overpowered that so many people are switching over?

I can not provide numbers on how many people are dropping professions for Tailoring...that's impossible. But I do know that an enormous amount of mages/warlocks/shadowpriests use tailored epics and I know that many of them have only picked up tailoring to get those epics. Which means they dropped one of their current professions.

Well its quite presumptious to assume that they had to drop a prior profession for it. No doubt many of them may have already been tailors. However I finally realize what your on to. You wish tailoring to be underpowered, so no one has any reason to take it. Like you stated, blizz can't just nerf the tailoring sets now, so the only conclusion is to buff the other professions so all the clothies switch to something else.

[larissa]

This thread is about Tailoring...not about enchanting...

Flocks of dps casters are not dropping professions in order to pick up enchanting like they are for tailoring...which leads to the purpose of this thread...why is tailoring so overpowered that so many people are switching over?

I can not provide numbers on how many people are dropping professions for Tailoring...that's impossible. But I do know that an enormous amount of mages/warlocks/shadowpriests use tailored epics and I know that many of them have only picked up tailoring to get those epics. Which means they dropped one of their current professions.

Yes, heaven forbid something new is added to a discussion.

Why not discuss Enchanting? The whole basis of your argument is that cloth wearers are dropping their old professions to get tailored epics so they can pew pew more with higher spell damage. Then why aren't they flocking to Enchanting, which will give them ... well what do you know ... higher spell damage!

And numbers are easy. Talk to 10 or 20 cloth wearers. Ask them if they dropped their former profession for Tailoring, then find out if it was _just_ for the tailored epics. Because I'm sure there were one or two who had Tailoring before the expansion. Just because a clothie is wearing the BoP epics, doesn't mean they dropped something else to get it. But there you go, if you find 19 out of 20 who agree with you, well now, you have some numbers to go with.

For some, it could also be their plan. If you read the 'what professions should I take' threads, you'll see that a lot of people advocate taking gathering professions to make gold, then skill up a desired profession at the end game.

For others, the could have looked at the end game stuff and decided that they didn't like what their other profession offered. You have to know what they dropped in order to pick up Tailoring. Were they Alchemists who felt they were 'nerfed' too much by the patch? Were they Engineers who finally gave up on it? Do they feel they have enough money from gathering stuff, and now what to make something nice for themselves?

And why do people go for the epics? Because it's available, and I'm sure are of the belief that more +damage makes them more uber, so they can just plow into Karazhan and pew pew to their heart's content. If they continue to use it after Tier 4, well, that's their choice. If they switch to Tier 4, then what's your gripe? And don't base that on someone putting a couple of pieces of Tier gear in the bank. Why are they saving it if it's useless? Perhaps they plan on wearing Tier 4 when they can get the best out of it, rather than wear a bunch of broken sets?

~~~Larissa

[liquidicem]

I use the term "overnight crafted epics" because they can actually be crafted overnight if you have enough gold to do so. You can equip 5 pieces of tailored epics in under an hour if you have enough gold and can find everything you need.

I know of several guilds that will gladly sell you your full tier 4 set IF you have enough gold to do so.

[mesonm]

An enormous mass of raiders, including myself obviously

You are still quite entertaining, indeed...Bold statements...no evidence...not surprising...

ROFL

LMAO

:thumbsup:

:grin:

[DrOsmius]

(1) I love how blizzard has essentially forced all clothies to pick up tailoring and make your gear or you are going to get blown away on the damage/heal meters.

(2) I have been herb/alch forever and have always enjoyed the professions, but now since the release of BC and all the new tailored epics...a dps caster(mage) as myself is forced to go tailoring to keep up with the raids damage output.

I have since dropped alchy to pick up tailoring and I will admit that the epics are very nice and awesome to have...but I can't wait to get some tier5 so I can drop tailoring and go back to my beloved alchemy.

(3) Why does blizzard want all clothies to be tailors?

(4) Why are tailored epics so overpowered that they practically force us to drop our current professions?

(5) How many of you guys have dropped your professions in order to make those tailored epics?

You ask how many, but you already "know" it is huge amounts...sigh.

Anyhow, I labeled your original questions & comments. Also, this is, despite all appearances, not a response to Astross, but merely a contribution to the (occasionally) informative debate here. As Larissa mentioned, I had previously examined the merits of dropping alchy/herb for the PMC/WM and found myself deciding against. This thread has given me more to consider and has thus been useful.

(1) I think our excellent researchers have demonstrated the improvements of the tailoring epics are not sufficient to result in "blowing someone away on the meters". It is a few % at best. Thanks for the numbers Tanitha, Larissa, et.al.

(2) Well...you are not forced by Blizz, but I don't think you really meant that. There is indeed personal pressures and raid pressures to min/max, and I do think many have switched to tailoring just to do so. Had the thread been posed such that "how many of you felt pressured and/or switched, and how do you feel about it?", we'd have had a much different discussion. But I think we've had lots of information that says you needn't feel such pressure, and in some cases, people actually like that option. In your case, you didn't like dropping alch/herb, but felt you had to meet your other goals for the game, and wish things hadn't been set up that way.

(3) I think we've had several good responses that amount to Blizz wanting the professions to be considered valuable by players, and that it also is a tasty bone to the casuals. I think it was answered well and thoroughly.

(4) This is really a restatement of #3 & #4. We've gotten lots of solid views as to why they are powerful, and why clothies might feel pressured to go that route.

(5) As Astross says, it is very hard to find out real numbers for this. It does seem that many that went this route did so gladly, glad to have a profession that makes a real difference to them. Some don't feel the min/maxing is worth the tradeoffs, and don't feel particularly upset.

So all in all, the topic, despite its occasional devolutions, is a solid one, and has given a few good perspectives, some solid numbers, and (at least here) a general consensus (with 1 or 2 outliers) that Blizz's decision was a good and favorable one.

And I for one remain solid about my decision to remain non-tailor, though I was very happy for more examination.

[Wasabee]

This thread is about Tailoring...not about enchanting...

Flocks of dps casters are not dropping professions in order to pick up enchanting like they are for tailoring...which leads to the purpose of this thread...why is tailoring so overpowered that so many people are switching over?

I can not provide numbers on how many people are dropping professions for Tailoring...that's impossible. But I do know that an enormous amount of mages/warlocks/shadowpriests use tailored epics and I know that many of them have only picked up tailoring to get those epics. Which means they dropped one of their current professions.

Maybe you should take this to official boards where the blue-people can address ytour concerns. It seems that expressing your convictions here are not adding to your cause. You can't get blood out of a rock...unless you beat someone with it...

[Aswer]

TBH this thread is starting to induce a bit of /yawn.

[Astross]

I know of several guilds that will gladly sell you your full tier 4 set IF you have enough gold to do so.



IF you actually knew what was going on, maybe you would realise that tier4 set is BOP, which means you can't sell it to nobody.

And IF you meant paying guilds to let you piggyback through Karazhan, Gruul's, and Mag's to get those drops...I seriously doubt it would happen.

Please don't contribute to this conversation if you have no knowledge of raiding loot.

[mesonm]

Please don't contribute to this conversation if you have no knowledge of raiding loot.

I do love this constant "I'm not interested in what others have to say attitude...."

[Astross]

I do love this constant "I'm not interested in what others have to say attitude...."



I am very interested in what people have to say...as long as they have raiding experience and have switched professions to tailoring.

I have absolutely no interest in anyone's input if they don't have any idea what they are talking about.

Please have some knowledge of the subject if you are to partake in this conversation.

[DraedynLei]

Please have some knowledge of the subject if you are to partake in this conversation.

LOL. Why when you have so very little and continue to post? People continue to post real numbers and actual knowledge and you just continue to post the same tired over generalizations with no proof you've been doing since day 1. If that's the bar for "knowledge" for you, that's sad.

[Aswer]

And [B]IF you meant paying guilds to let you piggyback through Karazhan, Gruul's, and Mag's to get those drops...I seriously doubt it would happen.

You seriously need to go to the closest convenience store AND GET YOURSELF A CLUE.

Guilds have been doing this since the day MC was on farm.

[zzzzzzz]

I am very interested in what people have to say...as long as they have raiding experience and have switched professions to tailoring.

I have absolutely no interest in anyone's input if they don't have any idea what they are talking about.

Please have some knowledge of the subject if you are to partake in this conversation.

I dropped mining to get tailoring for my shadoweave set. You are correct in that it was really the best way for me to go if I wanted to boost my damage. I don't necessarily think that I am forced to go this way because as it increases my damage it also lowers my sta/int. For raiding purposes I think damage is the way to go.

I thought that I would lose alot of my gold making capabilities when I dropped mining but I have found that I am now making a pretty decent profit from tailoring by creating spellthreads and crafting the spellstrike stuff. Also my JCing makes me plenty of gold so am I glad I switched? Yep, was one of the better moves I made and I am glad that there was three pieces that I didnt have to lose DKP on to get.

[Astross]

LOL. Why when you have so very little and continue to post? People continue to post real numbers and actual knowledge and you just continue to post the same tired over generalizations with no proof you've been doing since day 1. If that's the bar for "knowledge" for you, that's sad.

Actually I am trying to have a conversation about how many people have switched professions in order to pick up tailoring...and the only knowledgeable replies so far have been from DrOsmius and Tanitha.

Most of the replies so far have been..."no one is forcing you to become a tailor" or "tier4 is just as good as tailored epics" or "it's hard work to farm all the mats for the tailored epics" or "getting tier4 requires hardly no work at all"

All of these types of responses is what's cluttering up this thread...all that is asked for is knowledgeable raiders to come foward and share their experiences with having to drop a current profession in order to pick up tailoring.

The bottom line comes down to this:
Tailored epics are better than tier4 and are "practically forcing" all clothies to switch professions.
If you were already a tailor and did not have to switch, then you probably can not relate to this conversation.
If you think tier4 is better than tailored epics, that is your opinion, but doesn't not explain why huge amounts of mages/warlocks/priests are switching to tailoring.
If you think tailored epics are hard to get...well they are not. When you can literally buy your way to tailored epics overnight.

[Astross]

You seriously need to go to the closest convenience store AND GET YOURSELF A CLUE.

Guilds have been doing this since the day MC was on farm.


If anyone ever tried this with our guild, we would laugh in their face and tell them to learn to earn.

The guy buying piggback rides through instances has got to be one hell of a noob.

[Astross]

I dropped mining to get tailoring for my shadoweave set. You are correct in that it was really the best way for me to go if I wanted to boost my damage. I don't necessarily think that I am forced to go this way because as it increases my damage it also lowers my sta/int. For raiding purposes I think damage is the way to go.

I thought that I would lose alot of my gold making capabilities when I dropped mining but I have found that I am now making a pretty decent profit from tailoring by creating spellthreads and crafting the spellstrike stuff. Also my JCing makes me plenty of gold so am I glad I switched? Yep, was one of the better moves I made and I am glad that there was three pieces that I didnt have to lose DKP on to get.

Thank you for staying on topic and actually contributing to this thread.

But ya I agree, damage is the main stat to care about for raiding purposes.

And this is the whole basis of my arguement...because these tailored epics are so high in +damage, you are forced to use this gear in order to achieve the desired +damage.

[zzzzzzz]

Thank you for staying on topic and actually contributing to this thread.

But ya I agree, damage is the main stat to care about for raiding purposes.

And this is the whole basis of my arguement...because these tailored epics are so high in +damage, you are forced to use this gear in order to achieve the desired +damage.


Yeah but its still really a choice. If you are a hard core raider then tailoring is the way to go. If you like to solo alot of are more intersted in PVP but your guild is capable of doing Kara then maybe you would like the T4 pieces a bit more as they have better stats with comparable damage. I do think that in the future that there will be more causual guilds doing bosses such as Gruul especially since they have nerfed the majority of these fights.

Honestly you could look at this topic in many views. Some would say that the tailoring gives more casual guilds a way to gear up better to encounter some of the higher end instance runs. Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with the way tailoring is. If you didn't have a reason to level it up people would not do it, pretty simple. Is it easy to level up? Yeah for me it wasnt too bad because I had to gold to purchase alot of the mats necessary. But alot of people dont which means they have to spend MANY hours of farming to get where they want to be.

Maybe add part of getting each piece to a quest. Need to kill so and so to get this piece made or make the NPC to get the pattern from and end boss in a Heroic dungeon. But as far as the stats go, I am glad they are what they are.

[mesonm]

Actually I am trying to have a conversation about how many people have switched professions in order to pick up tailoring...and the only knowledgeable replies so far have been from DrOsmius and Tanitha.


Since only TWO people in this entire forum have met your criteria so far, obviously you are in the wrong place to get what you claim to want.

I meet your criteria (raider who switch profs to tailoring) but don't agree with you in any way....Thus, I am not on your list....

Which I salute....

:grin:

Now, you call anyone piggybacking on kara to be noobs, despite that it does happen, and refutes what you said earlier....

Quite entertaining, this is....

[Astross]

Since only TWO people in this entire forum have met your criteria so far, obviously you are in the wrong place to get what you claim to want.

I meet your criteria (raider who switch profs to tailoring) but don't agree with you in any way....Thus, I am not on your list....

Which I salute....

:grin:

Now, you call anyone piggybacking on kara to be noobs, despite that it does happen, and refutes what you said earlier....

Quite entertaining, this is....

what on earth are you talking about?

If you have to "piggback" your way through kara, then yes you are a noob. How does that refute what I said earlier?

[Astayanax]

Well I see points for both sides, but to be honest you really have to look at the full picture:

- PreBC, tailoring was arguably the weakest profession in the game. For most part, it had nothing that could be used to generate income from and the few perks (like the bag recipe from Onyxia lair for instance) was something only a handful of people experience. If there is a reason why so many people are "flocking" to it now was because there were few people who were it to begin with.

- PostBC, tailoring became a very good profession. Not only can you make several BoP and BoE pieces that focuses on damage, but you have easy access to bags and cloth enchants for legs. Don't make anyone fool you, Tailoring is a very lucrative profession now although it still costs a ton to level up.

The real issue is not so much with tailoring itself, but the design philosophy that went into the tier pieces. It was a HUGE mistake on blizzard's part to only give mages/warlocks 1 tier option that tries to fit all playing styles but doing so fit NO playing style. For mages, they should have 3 or 4 options to choose from: fire/arcane, fire/frost, frost/arcane and the one that is there now that way they could tweak it to suit to focus on stuff that we are looking for.

Another mistake they did (and yes I am saying this as a tailor) is they should have probably incorporated the tailoring sets like how they are doing it with the blacksmith weapons; having different tiers that requires you to get some quest drops from instances of that level so while tailoring would still be a better choice, it won't be that much better than the tier pieces you can get for that level.

But for now, you are left with a dilemma. If you think tailoring is 'so easy' to get and you got to have max spell damage, nothing is stopping you from making the switch to it now. So you have other professions you don't want to lose? Tough luck, you can't have it all.

[Astross]

Well I see points for both sides, but to be honest you really have to look at the full picture:

- PreBC, tailoring was arguably the weakest profession in the game. For most part, it had nothing that could be used to generate income from and the few perks (like the bag recipe from Onyxia lair for instance) was something only a handful of people experience. If there is a reason why so many people are "flocking" to it now was because there were few people who were it to begin with.

- PostBC, tailoring became a very good profession. Not only can you make several BoP and BoE pieces that focuses on damage, but you have easy access to bags and cloth enchants for legs. Don't make anyone fool you, Tailoring is a very lucrative profession now although it still costs a ton to level up.

The real issue is not so much with tailoring itself, but the design philosophy that went into the tier pieces. It was a HUGE mistake on blizzard's part to only give mages/warlocks 1 tier option that tries to fit all playing styles but doing so fit NO playing style. For mages, they should have 3 or 4 options to choose from: fire/arcane, fire/frost, frost/arcane and the one that is there now that way they could tweak it to suit to focus on stuff that we are looking for.

Another mistake they did (and yes I am saying this as a tailor) is they should have probably incorporated the tailoring sets like how they are doing it with the blacksmith weapons; having different tiers that requires you to get some quest drops from instances of that level so while tailoring would still be a better choice, it won't be that much better than the tier pieces you can get for that level.

But for now, you are left with a dilemma. If you think tailoring is 'so easy' to get and you got to have max spell damage, nothing is stopping you from making the switch to it now. So you have other professions you don't want to lose? Tough luck, you can't have it all.



Yes I agree with many of your points.

However when your guild, and yourself, expects to have the best gear obtainable. There is no other option to become a tailorer...the tier4 and other drops in between tier5 are severely underclassed by the tailored epics. Which leaves people no choice but to have to drop their current profession and pick up tailoring.

When was the last time that such an influx of any class have switched to a certain profession?

Why do all the dps casters essentially have a 'cookie cutter' gear build? Every serious raiding mage/warlock/shadowpriest that you see is fully equipped with tailored epics.

It's almost sad to see that every clothie looks the same and has the same exact gear having almost has no choice but to conform to tailoring.

If these patterns where not sold by a vender, were harder to obtain, or if Karazhan loot had equivalent +damage...maybe we could actually have a choice in which gear to use.

[Tanitha]

However when your guild, and yourself, expects to have the best gear obtainable. There is no other option to become a tailorer...the tier4 and other drops in between tier5 are severely underclassed by the tailored epics. Which leaves people no choice but to have to drop their current profession and pick up tailoring.

Wait. Did you actually look at the numbers we have posted for you? I'd agree that there is a minor difference, but that is balanced by higher stats in other areas and so forth.

Go back and run the numbers again - we did that for you and based it off your current gear. Severely under classed? Hardly. The numbers showed that.

[Valshenna]

I'm thinking about switching my alt warlock over to tailoring. But that's just because I want to make those 20-slot bags for my other alts at some point :grin:

But to address the topic of this thread, I've noticed that lots of the clothies in my guild are tailors and have made the epic items. How do the items compare to Karazhan and Heroic epics post 2.1 as opposed to original BC release? I'm just curious :wink:

[Astross]

I'm thinking about switching my alt warlock over to tailoring. But that's just because I want to make those 20-slot bags for my other alts at some point :grin:

But to address the topic of this thread, I've noticed that lots of the clothies in my guild are tailors and have made the epic items. How do the items compare to Karazhan and Heroic epics post 2.1 as opposed to original BC release? I'm just curious :wink:



Tailored epics are still better.

Full 5 piece tailoring set (spellfire, spellstrike) has 75 more damage than the full tier4 set.

I don't know about you guys, but every caster in my guild pretty much has full tailored epics (or working on it) and passes on all tier4 drops.

[Astayanax]

However when your guild, and yourself, expects to have the best gear obtainable. There is no other option to become a tailorer...the tier4 and other drops in between tier5 are severely underclassed by the tailored epics. Which leaves people no choice but to have to drop their current profession and pick up tailoring.


I agree, but it isn't so much of the tailoring sets being overpowered, but the tier sets (even after being buffed) were flat out designed horribly. If you want to see a case of items being done correctly, compare the spellfire belt to the inferno waist cord (I believe it is called) from Karazhan. The inferno belt is better than the spellfire one. However, in the case of the general t4 set, blizzard felt it is wise (when in fact it is dumb) to load our sets with general spell damage (the only frost spell I use in raids is frost nova), spirit (the worst stat in the game for dps casters) at the expense of hit, crit and more damage. Not to mention, for most part the set bonuses aren't really all that great.


Why do all the dps casters essentially have a 'cookie cutter' gear build? Every serious raiding mage/warlock/shadowpriest that you see is fully equipped with tailored epics.


I agree with that there.


If these patterns where not sold by a vender, were harder to obtain, or if Karazhan loot had equivalent +damage...maybe we could actually have a choice in which gear to use.


Don't think this will help much by its own. Maybe if the spellstrike set etc were BoP and they implement the 'tier' solution that they did for blacksmithing, would you see the majority of casters in different gear; and even here, it will only be because they had no other choice.

[Astross]

It's sad when you have to pass on tier4 because your crafted items are way better. :cry:

Blizzard really needs to fix tier4 and give it something worth using.




And as for the blacksmithing tier example, I think thats a great idea and would help to alleviate the cookie cutter phenomenon we have now.

[Tanitha]

Full 5 piece tailoring set (spellfire, spellstrike) has 75 more damage than the full tier4 set.

Based off Atross' current character stats you are looking at:

Difference (Tailored perspective with current INT):
Damage -96
Fire: +74
Arcane: +74
Frost: -96
Shadow: -96
Holy: -96

That is the difference between Tier4 and the full set of Tailored Epics. This does not take the ~6300g cost that it takes to level tailoring (As Larissa worked out). It also does not take the loss of stats into account.

Difference (Tailored perspective):
Armour: -131 (Completely ignorable)
Stamina: -89
Intellect: -93
Spirit: -89


So yes, taking Tailored over Tier 4 you gained 74 damage for two schools. You lost 96 damage in general and in Frost. (As a Mage) As a Warlock you'd be losing 96 damage for your primary school and as a priest. (Using the set that Astross requested for comparisons) And you lose the stats as above.

Then you also need to take into account the set bonus. With Tailored it equates to: "Increase spell damage by 7% of total intellect, chance to increase damage by 92 for 10 seconds". Of course, you're losing approximately 93 Intellect by taking Tailored over Tier 4. With Tier 4 you get "100% chance to avoid interruption when casting Frostbolt / Fireball, Reduce cooldown on Presence of Mind by 24s, Blast Wave by 4s and Ice Block by 40s".

It's arguable which bonus is better, but Tier4 seems to be focussed more on survival and longer term viability than Tailored.


I don't know about you guys, but every caster in my guild pretty much has full tailored epics (or working on it) and passes on all tier4 drops.

And for Nihilum - you know, the guys with the "first" Vashj, seem to be about 50/50 on that one. Just looking at some of the players wearing tailored Epics it's difficult to say if they chose to drop another profession for Tailoring. But there are some combinations you don't see frequently such as Herbalism / Tailoring, etc. However, a rough count of the first 6 armory pages of their level 70 characters showed only ~50% of their casters using Tailored gear. And that doesn't even give the numbers for people who switched a profession - for all we know the majority of them could have been tailors outright.

Just some food for thought. If one of the top Raiding guilds does not mandate tailored epics for all their casters, maybe the problem isn't so big?

[larissa]

That is the difference between Tier4 and the full set of Tailored Epics. This does not take the ~6300g cost that it takes to level tailoring (As Larissa worked out). It also does not take the loss of stats into account.

Difference (Tailored perspective):
Armour: -131 (Completely ignorable)
Stamina: -89
Intellect: -93
Spirit: -89

So yes, taking Tailored over Tier 4 you gained 74 damage for two schools. You lost 96 damage in general and in Frost. (As a Mage) As a Warlock you'd be losing 96 damage for your primary school and as a priest. (Using the set that Astross requested for comparisons) And you lose the stats as above.

Then you also need to take into account the set bonus. With Tailored it equates to: "Increase spell damage by 7% of total intellect, chance to increase damage by 92 for 10 seconds". Of course, you're losing approximately 93 Intellect by taking Tailored over Tier 4. With Tier 4 you get "100% chance to avoid interruption when casting Frostbolt / Fireball, Reduce cooldown on Presence of Mind by 24s, Blast Wave by 4s and Ice Block by 40s".

It's arguable which bonus is better, but Tier4 seems to be focussed more on survival and longer term viability than Tailored.

I'm still waiting to hear how one makes 6300 gold in a hour. I'd really like to know. Heck, even half that I'd be happy with.

I suppose if damage is all that matters, then yes, the Tailored sets do beat out Tier 4, heck, even Tier 5 loses out on that count.

Personally for me, I prefer survivability. I have my Primal Mooncloth, but I rarely wear it. It was the same when I went Holy spec. Sure, I was getting off the awesome heals. And then I would pull aggro and die. A dead priest doesn't do much (well, after 15 seconds, or you play like rgirty :grin: ). I would think the same applies to a mage or warlock. Dead = no damage, meaning it wouldn't matter if the gear had +1000 damage.

And for Nihilum - you know, the guys with the "first" Vashj, seem to be about 50/50 on that one. Just looking at some of the players wearing tailored Epics it's difficult to say if they chose to drop another profession for Tailoring. But there are some combinations you don't see frequently such as Herbalism / Tailoring, etc. However, a rough count of the first 6 armory pages of their level 70 characters showed only ~50% of their casters using Tailored gear. And that doesn't even give the numbers for people who switched a profession - for all we know the majority of them could have been tailors outright.

Just some food for thought. If one of the top Raiding guilds does not mandate tailored epics for all their casters, maybe the problem isn't so big?

I looked at a couple of the top guilds on my server. We're young, and the top guilds are not very far along the raid progression (I don't believe there have been any serious forays into Serpentshrine of the Eye yet). So, these are guilds dealing with the content that Astross is so concerned about.

The top one is 6-4 with tailors vs. non-tailors.

The other one I checked was more skewed, 8-1 for tailors. But then, I know a couple of the people in that one, and they were tailors from the start. So again, a 6-3 margin for _potential_ players who were 'forced' into tailoring.

And even then, some tailors weren't wearing full tailored sets (yes, including at least one mage tailor that I know). So I'm thinking that the issue is more personal to the OP than to things game-wide. Even those who are 'allowed' to post in this thread stated they didn't feel forced to do it. They saw it as an opportunity to enhance their game and to get to where they wanted to be. They weren't 'oh man, got to have that +75 spell damage or I just won't be able/allowed to raid effectively'.


Why do all the dps casters essentially have a 'cookie cutter' gear build? Every serious raiding mage/warlock/shadowpriest that you see is fully equipped with tailored epics.

It's almost sad to see that every clothie looks the same and has the same exact gear having almost has no choice but to conform to tailoring.


Sooo ... it would be fine if everyone was in their cookie cutter Tier 4 look? Isn't that the way of raiding? All the classes get to look the same, wearing the exact same gear? And now there's tailoring options, to widen the variety of gear, and this is somehow a bad point?

~~~Larissa

[Rex Normal]

I don't think that anyone is forced to pick up tailoring, anyone who feels that way is simply exagurating. But When I'm in a raid with another warlock who's a tailor, i feel kinda gimped.

Personally I think bliz kinda went overboard with the tailoring epic quality, it should be a nice perk to those who choose to tailor, not a reason to be a tailor. IMO the better route to go would have been to make the tier sets deal with +dmg and +healing, and the tailoring sets focus on resistances rather than damage. That way the craft would still be in demand but not so awesome that people would drop their professions just to get ZOMGEPIX!

I think people who don't raid deserve some nice gear, but raiders deserve nicer gear than those who don't raid, afterall it's kinda the main point of raiding.

[Tanitha]

but raiders deserve nicer gear than those who don't raid, afterall it's kinda the main point of raiding.

A bold statement. After all, my $15 a month is worth as much as the Raider's $15. Just because they choose to Raid rather than to PvP for that $15 - should they get better gear? I disagree.

When Raiders are strutting around in Tier 5 and Tier 6 - where does Tailored Epics stand then? A ways behind. The problem at the moment is that what Raiders have unlocked NOW does not match Tailored epics if you ONLY look at +damage. If you look at the complete set, the two options are fairly well balanced and if you check what people have been saying, the top raiding guilds are not showing Astross' claim.

[larissa]

I don't think that anyone is forced to pick up tailoring, anyone who feels that way is simply exagurating. But When I'm in a raid with another warlock who's a tailor, i feel kinda gimped.

Is it just the Tailoring gear that they have over you, or do they have other items? Are you in equivalnt gear (say Tier 4)?

Personally I think bliz kinda went overboard with the tailoring epic quality, it should be a nice perk to those who choose to tailor, not a reason to be a tailor. IMO the better route to go would have been to make the tier sets deal with +dmg and +healing, and the tailoring sets focus on resistances rather than damage. That way the craft would still be in demand but not so awesome that people would drop their professions just to get ZOMGEPIX!

To be honest, I think it's the set bonuses that really make the Tailored sets. While the Tier bonuses are good as well, it is hard to compete with things like7% intelligence for damage, or 10% intelligence for healing. Those kind of numbers always catch the eye, especially for those looking for the best gear and the top bonus they can get.

But honestly, does anyone use resistance gear anywhere? I want to make the Flameheart gear from the Aldor tailoring patterns ... and yet, whenever I start to go out to farm the Primal Fires for it, I just think "Why? When am I ever going to use it?" There's already tons of tailored resistance gear out there (I have Flameheart and Arcanoweave, there's Shadow resist patterns from Deathsworn, I'm sure there's Frost and Nature out there too).

I think people who don't raid deserve some nice gear, but raiders deserve nicer gear than those who don't raid, afterall it's kinda the main point of raiding.

Tier 4? Tier 5? Tier 6? The 8-10 other slots that Tailors can't craft something epic for?

While Tailoring may be seen as casual 'easy mode', raiding offers a lot more rewards in the long run. I don't mean to paint a generalized picture, but it's just sounding like a lot of raiders just want their 'phat epix' now, rather than earn them through their raid progression.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

I don't think that anyone is forced to pick up tailoring, anyone who feels that way is simply exagurating. But When I'm in a raid with another warlock who's a tailor, i feel kinda gimped.

Personally I think bliz kinda went overboard with the tailoring epic quality, it should be a nice perk to those who choose to tailor, not a reason to be a tailor. IMO the better route to go would have been to make the tier sets deal with +dmg and +healing, and the tailoring sets focus on resistances rather than damage. That way the craft would still be in demand but not so awesome that people would drop their professions just to get ZOMGEPIX!

I think people who don't raid deserve some nice gear, but raiders deserve nicer gear than those who don't raid, afterall it's kinda the main point of raiding.



Couldn't agree with you more.

Raiding DPS casters worry about one stat, and one stat only...+damage.

A little stamina isn't going to help when you pull aggro and get hit for 14k. If you pull aggro in a raid, you will die, regardless of how much stamina you might have. Sure a little extra intellect is nice, but nothing mana pots, mana gems, lifetap, etc. can't handle.

+damage is the stat that raiders care about most and is why almost all serious raiders have switched to tailoring.

It just sucks that serious raiding dps classes have to drop a profession in order to achieve that desired +damage. I wish that the tailored epics were even with tier4 in terms of +damage and +stats...that way people have a choice...either take the tailoring way and craft your epics, or take the raiding way and get some drops. Because right now people have one choice when if they want the most +damage...tailoring.

[Astross]

A bold statement. After all, my $15 a month is worth as much as the Raider's $15. Just because they choose to Raid rather than to PvP for that $15 - should they get better gear? I disagree.

Yes raiders should have better gear...that is the whole purpose of raiding. If you can't spend the time and effort into organizing a team and perfecting strategies...then why should you deserve better loot?

If you choose to play PVP or farm mats for your epics and like to run 'solo'...that is your choice and you should definetly get rewarded for your work...however to say that you deserve better gear than someone who raids is just ridiculous.


When Raiders are strutting around in Tier 5 and Tier 6 - where does Tailored Epics stand then? A ways behind. The problem at the moment is that what Raiders have unlocked NOW does not match Tailored epics if you ONLY look at +damage. If you look at the complete set, the two options are fairly well balanced and if you check what people have been saying, the top raiding guilds are not showing Astross' claim.

The top raiding guilds are already on tier 5 and 6 gear...which is why they are not wearing their tailored epics anymore. And even saying that some are still wearing their tailored epics over tier5 and 6 gear just shows how overpowered they really are.

.

[Tanitha]

If you choose to play PVP or farm mats for your epics and like to run 'solo'...that is your choice and you should definetly get rewarded for your work...however to say that you deserve better gear than someone who raids is just ridiculous.

Not necessarily better gear, but good gear. Which is what the tailored epics are. Raiders with their superior organization skills and everything that makes them so l337 will still get Tier 5 and Tier 6 eventually. Don't you see that difference? Tailors have one option and one option only. Raiders will eventually get much better gear, but that's a few months away. (Except, possibly as you've indicated those already wearing Tier 5 or 6 ... so where's the gripe again?)

Raiding DPS casters worry about one stat, and one stat only...+damage.

Sorry, but the top raiding guilds disagree with you. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, but as this thread should have shown you by now...

Priest - Enchant / Tailor - Gladiator's Battlegear
Mage - Alchemy / Herbalism - Standard Epics + Spellstrike Set (?)
Mage - Herbalism / Tailoring - Gladiator's Gear + Frozen Shadowweave Boots
Mage - Enchanting / Tailor - Standard Blues + Spellstrike Pants
Priest - Mining / Tailor - Frozen Shadowweave
Priest - Enchant / Tailor - Frozen Shadowweave
Warlock - Engineer / Miner - Plagueheart
Mage - Enchant / Tailor - Spellfire + Spellstrike
Warlock - Engineer / Tailor - Frozen Shadowweave Robe, rest comprised of other sets
Warlock - Mining / Tailor - Gladiator's Dreadweave + pieces of Gladiator's Felweave (Highest shadow damage of them all)

Those are the first 10 of a Guild that's busy working on the Black Temple. Of those, there are possibly three that might have dropped their alternative profession for Tailoring. (Herbalism / Tailor, Engineer Tailor / Mining Tailor). However, of those three only one is wearing a full tailored set and then only the one that boosts Shadow / Frost damage. None of the other schools. And even so, he is outdone by the Mining Tailor who has the highest shadow damage of the Shadow Priests / Warlocks in that list.

Sorry, but again, your numbers just don't seem to match reality. As such, I'm done with this. You've had numerical proof that the difference is marginal. You've got listings from some of the top guilds. You've got the knowledge that raiders will get to Tier 5 / Tier 6 and outstrip Tailored epics by a wide margin. You've not managed to supply any proof, just accusations and wistful dreams. So that's me. No sense in spitting against the wind.

[mesonm]

You've not managed to supply any proof, just accusations and wistful dreams.

yep.....So far as I can tell, he hasn't ever supplied anything except guesses put forth as fact.

[Astross]

Not necessarily better gear, but good gear. Which is what the tailored epics are. Raiders with their superior organization skills and everything that makes them so l337 will still get Tier 5 and Tier 6 eventually. Don't you see that difference? Tailors have one option and one option only. Raiders will eventually get much better gear, but that's a few months away. (Except, possibly as you've indicated those already wearing Tier 5 or 6 ... so where's the gripe again?)

I love your generalization of raiders...you assume that all raiders are going to get tier5 and 6...well I got news for you...only the best guilds on the realm are getting that gear...and most raiders are far from even stepping foot into SSC, much less BT. You obviously know nothing about raid progression and how difficult it is to get your hands on tier5 and tier6.



Sorry, but the top raiding guilds disagree with you. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, but as this thread should have shown you by now...



Those are the first 10 of a Guild that's busy working on the Black Temple. Of those, there are possibly three that might have dropped their alternative profession for Tailoring. (Herbalism / Tailor, Engineer Tailor / Mining Tailor). However, of those three only one is wearing a full tailored set and then only the one that boosts Shadow / Frost damage. None of the other schools. And even so, he is outdone by the Mining Tailor who has the highest shadow damage of the Shadow Priests / Warlocks in that list.

You can not possibly tell who dropped what profession for tailoring from that list...The fact is that 7 out of 10 of these top raiders you listed are using tailored epics even in Black Temple...and somehow this disagrees with what I am saying? What on earth are you talking about?

Obviously this guild you are talking about has probably cleared SSC and got their hands on some tier5...and yet they are still using tailored epics.

Sorry, but again, your numbers just don't seem to match reality. As such, I'm done with this. You've had numerical proof that the difference is marginal. You've got listings from some of the top guilds. You've got the knowledge that raiders will get to Tier 5 / Tier 6 and outstrip Tailored epics by a wide margin. You've not managed to supply any proof, just accusations and wistful dreams. So that's me. No sense in spitting against the wind.

Ya my numbers don't match reality, only 7 out of 10 of the raiders you listed are using tailored epics...that's more than I expected....thanks for tossing some numbers my way to back up my arguement.

[Tanitha]

well I got news for you...only the best guilds on the realm are getting that gear

Well, sorry you're not good enough to get the gear. That's not my problem though. Your fallacious assertions are.

Ya my numbers don't match reality, only 7 out of 10 of the raiders you listed are using tailored epics...that's more than I expected....thanks for tossing some numbers my way to back up my arguement.

Darling child, Enchanting and Tailoring go together. You use the disenchants from your tailored gear to help level your enchanting. In that respect, it's very difficult to believe your assertion that Clothies forced into Tailoring. They already had it. Then it makes sense to use the tailored gear while you are busy raiding. But it makes no sense to drop another profession for tailoring when you will eventually get better gear. Unless you really want to eke out +74 damage in TWO schools at the expense of +96 damage in ALL the others.

And that, I believe, completely disproves your inane point. Now, unless you actually have some facts to back up your statement I'd suggest you follow your own advice and stop posting in this thread.

[meikyo]

yep.....So far as I can tell, he hasn't ever supplied anything except guesses put forth as fact.

And you've done what? People are screaming troll at this guy that for over 20 pages has been trying to have a nice little discussion about an important matter which is very valid, and all any of you can contribute is "QQ" or "Nu-uh! I like my epix!".

Blizz messed up their itemization from the start, this screw up benefitted the casuals however in turn created a stepping stone for raiders. Fact is is I never wanted that stepping stone and I'm sure many others feel the same way. "Forced" aka feeling pressured to level tailoring to keep up with standards. To be the best is to do anything you can be it skill or gear wise to prep you and your guildies for future content. This includes but is not limited to sacrificing a current profession to level tailoring. I can drop mining, but do I want to? Hell no. Yes I do not have to but there's a pretty good damn chance it might effect my future raiding. Join another guild? Oh ok....sure let me find another guild with free mage spots who happen to be at a point in progress where I am! T4 may be as good or almost as good as crafted gear? Ok, even if this was true the fact remains if you are a somewhat competent mage and already have your crafted epics you are probably getting that kara spot. Grats you just put your foot in the door, yes John Q. Noepix can do the same but it's obvious who would be preferred.

I honestly don't see the point of typing anything. It seems like most people just skim through real quick to fuel their motivation to post another "QQ" comment. I won't deny some useful and decent debate has been added here but for the most part alot of people are pretty biased. You may be insulted by the fact that he asks for a certain criteria when posting, but when it concerns wow its actually a pretty valid request due to the amount of a.d.d. in the wow community. I've posted earlier on this and I'm not as much behind it as I used to be, but only because nothing can be done, and in that I've moved on(despite this rant!). Regardless, the fact remains yes this is alot of pressure on raiders, and in related news I've recently retired from raiding(realizing my stress over polygons got me through!). There should be other ways to achieve similar levels of equip between raiders/casuals without having to commit a profession to it.

[Shadowpup]

Maybe we should ask what profession clothies should use instead?

Mining. We can throw those rocks for more dps right?

Herbalism so we can smoke more weed?

Alchemy! Especially since certain types of pots no longer stack.

Ooh ooh, Engineering! Because you know, Guns and Bombs are uber for casters (shh, quiet I'm trying to make useless point).

Oh I know..XXSmithing. Yeah, nothing says magical might like a finely crafted Hand of Eternity. Oh wait..that thing is pretty badass for Healers.
hmmmm, the Eternium Runed Blade is pretty good too.

How come Astross isn't trying to kick Blacksmithing in the balls too?

[Tanitha]

To go a few points further. Nihilum downed Illidan. Looking up the names of the group involved in that shows that Clinkz, Buzzkil and Darmor - three of the clothies that are easily identifiable in that screenshot DO NOT use a full set of tailored gear. The Warlocks are actually wearing Tier 5 (Corrupters Raiment), despite being tailors.

I'm sorry, but that does not indicate to me that Raiders are forced to drop their professions for tailoring. They have Tier 5. If the argument is that it is impossible for a casual raider to get to Tier 5 <shrugs>. That might be a different thread. The topic for this one was that Clothies are forced into Tailoring.

So what is arguably the top raiding guild disproves that. The advantage they have over others is the speed with which they realize their goals. Other, less committed / dedicated raiders like Astross will make it too. It will just take you a bit of time.

[Astross]

Well, sorry you're not good enough to get the gear. That's not my problem though. Your fallacious assertions are.

Who said my guild isn't good enough to get the gear? We've already cleared kara/gruul/mag and starting on SCC...I am speaking for the thousands of other guilds who aren't as fortunate. Nice try on the insult, but I believe you are the one who are in a guild that can not progress...


Darling child, Enchanting and Tailoring go together. You use the disenchants from your tailored gear to help level your enchanting. In that respect, it's very difficult to believe your assertion that Clothies forced into Tailoring. They already had it. Then it makes sense to use the tailored gear while you are busy raiding. But it makes no sense to drop another profession for tailoring when you will eventually get better gear. Unless you really want to eke out +74 damage in TWO schools at the expense of +96 damage in ALL the others.

And that, I believe, completely disproves your inane point. Now, unless you actually have some facts to back up your statement I'd suggest you follow your own advice and stop posting in this thread.

How do you know that person didn't drop two professions and picked up tailoring and enchanting? oh yeah thats right, you don't!

Can you link me some more top raiders with tailored epics from the armory please so you can further back up my point. Thanks.

[Tanitha]

How do you know that person didn't drop two professions and picked up tailoring and enchanting? oh yeah thats right, you don't!

A fair point. Dropping two professions seem a bit excessive though, wouldn't you say? Especially losing all the recipies/plans/etc. of the other crafting profession. Dropping a gathering / gold sink - maybe. But another profession? Doubtful.

But a question in return would be - how do YOU know that they dropped a profession for Tailoring?

Oh yeah, that's right. You don't either.

Now, come back with some facts please, but these assertions of some nebulous truth that does not seem to be matched by reality is getting rather tedious.

Who said my guild isn't good enough to get the gear? We've already cleared kara/gruul/mag and starting on SCC...I am speaking for the thousands of other guilds who aren't as fortunate.

It wasn't an insult, it was a show of sympathy. Clearly your raiding gear outshining everyone else is very important to you. You'd said that only the best guilds would be getting Tier 5 / 6 and from your posts I'd gathered that you would not be getting Tier 5 or Tier 6.

If you are getting them eventually, what is your point with this whole thread? You'll outshine everybody anyway then.

[meikyo]

Maybe we should ask what profession clothies should use instead?

Mining. We can throw those rocks for more dps right?

Herbalism so we can smoke more weed?

Alchemy! Especially since certain types of pots no longer stack.

Ooh ooh, Engineering! Because you know, Guns and Bombs are uber for casters (shh, quiet I'm trying to make useless point).

Oh I know..XXSmithing. Yeah, nothing says magical might like a finely crafted Hand of Eternity. Oh wait..that thing is pretty badass for Healers.
hmmmm, the Eternium Runed Blade is pretty good too.

How come Astross isn't trying to kick Blacksmithing in the balls too?


I can't check atm but is h.o.e. even bop? Granted the engineering goggles are bop and are very nice, but it's just 1 piece. Still...I really don't see anything valid in this reply.

[Astross]

To go a few points further. Nihilum downed Illidan. Looking up the names of the group involved in that shows that Clinkz, Buzzkil and Darmor - three of the clothies that are easily identifiable in that screenshot DO NOT use a full set of tailored gear. The Warlocks are actually wearing Tier 5 (Corrupters Raiment), despite being tailors.

I'm sorry, but that does not indicate to me that Raiders are forced to drop their professions for tailoring. They have Tier 5. If the argument is that it is impossible for a casual raider to get to Tier 5 <shrugs>. That might be a different thread. The topic for this one was that Clothies are forced into Tailoring.

So what is arguably the top raiding guild disproves that. The advantage they have over others is the speed with which they realize their goals. Other, less committed / dedicated raiders like Astross will make it too. It will just take you a bit of time.



Of course they are not wearing tailored epics, they have tier5 and tier6....

What exactly is your point here?

[Tanitha]

I can't check atm but is h.o.e. even bop? Granted the engineering goggles are bop and are very nice, but it's just 1 piece. Still...I really don't see anything valid in this reply.

No, it's BoE. The substance of it is fairly valid though. There are edges that other professions (Like enchanting as rgirty has highlighted) will give over other professions. Particularly in the DPS realm, which seems to be the major point for Astross here. Why aren't they being targeted?

Of course they are not wearing tailored epics, they have tier5 and tier6....

What is my point? That other guilds who have the skill in raiding will get there too and won't be using Tailored gear anymore. If they use it at all. TIME is the major factor here. It will take your guild longer than it took Nihilum, but you'll get there. So no, you are not required to drop your professions for Tailoring.

[meikyo]

Just an example, obviously can't say this for everyone but, this looks to be part of the routine. More than likely yeah they wouldn't be wearing tailored sets with tier 5....but theyare tailors, they could have leveled tailoring for beginning raiding, not sure how this disproves anything.

To go a few points further. Nihilum downed Illidan. Looking up the names of the group involved in that shows that Clinkz, Buzzkil and Darmor - three of the clothies that are easily identifiable in that screenshot DO NOT use a full set of tailored gear. The Warlocks are actually wearing Tier 5 (Corrupters Raiment), despite being tailors.

I'm sorry, but that does not indicate to me that Raiders are forced to drop their professions for tailoring.

[meikyo]

No, it's BoE. The substance of it is fairly valid though. There are edges that other professions (Like enchanting as rgirty has highlighted) will give over other professions. Particularly in the DPS realm, which seems to be the major point for Astross here. Why aren't they being targeted?

Dunno I guess because this is about tailoring :) If there is any true devil it is enchanting for its expensive yet trivial bonus which can never be surpassed. Tailoring and ench do go hand in hand pretty well though...making them both a bit more evil.

[larissa]

OMG! To think I nearly stopped reading this thread ... oh, my sides hurt from laughing! :laughing:

I love your generalization of raiders...you assume that all raiders are going to get tier5 and 6...well I got news for you...only the best guilds on the realm are getting that gear...and most raiders are far from even stepping foot into SSC, much less BT. You obviously know nothing about raid progression and how difficult it is to get your hands on tier5 and tier6.

Yes, dammit! Black Temple has been in the game for nearly 3 weeks now! Why hasn't is been cleared by every guild on my server yet????

Burning Crusade has only been out 4 months. How many guilds did you expect there to be in Serpentshrine and the Eye? Where there tons of guilds in Molten Core after 4 months from the initial game release?

And gosh darn it, how dare Blizzard actually make challenging encounters and raids. It's keeping us from our phat epix! Darn you Blizzard, darn you straight to heck!

And truly, we love your generalizations of casuals and tailors in particular ... oh, and the raid community as well.

You can not possibly tell who dropped what profession for tailoring from that list...The fact is that 7 out of 10 of these top raiders you listed are using tailored epics even in Black Temple...and somehow this disagrees with what I am saying? What on earth are you talking about?

No, you can't tell who dropped what ... you also can't tell if in fact any of them have dropped something for tailoring.

Though looking at the list, it seems to me that they are dressed up for Arena fighting, not for raiding.

And then, out of the three in sets, two are enchanter/tailors. As Tanitha so amusingly stated, that's one of the most common profession set-ups for cloth users. Rarely will you see someone who is an Enchanter and something else, who then drops the other profession for Tailoring. So, in all likelihood, those two set wearers were Tailors from the start.

Of those who may have _potentially_ dropped a profession for tailoring, only two are actually wearing a piece of crafted gear.

It would be nice to see what they do wear for raiding, or if this is indeed their raiding set. If so, then looks like the thread should be changed to "Clothies Forces to PvP!!!1one!"

Obviously this guild you are talking about has probably cleared SSC and got their hands on some tier5...and yet they are still using tailored epics.

Oh ... so there are guilds beyond the top two or three that are raiding Serpentshrine or the Eye ... wow, fancy that.

Ya my numbers don't match reality, only 7 out of 10 of the raiders you listed are using tailored epics...that's more than I expected....thanks for tossing some numbers my way to back up my arguement.

Again, I do not believe it is an accurate representation. All the Gladiator gear makes me believe they were in Arenas before logout. I would like to see if their gear changes when they are raiding, or if indeed this is their raiding gear.

The bulk of them use only one or two pieces of tailored gear. Perhaps they have not been lucky enough to have a specific piece of Tier whatever drop for them. Perhaps they are waiting until they have 2 or 4 pieces before breaking up their old sets for new ones.

And this doesn't proove anything either way. 4 of the 8 Tailors are also Enchanters, and thus were most likely Tailors from the start. Therefore, not 'forced'.

Three more have gathering professions. Probably to ... oh, I don't know ... make money? Now it's possible they dropped Alchemy, Blacksmithing, Engineering or Jewelcrafting to take up Tailoring. I would argue that they didn't. It would be far smarter to drop the gathering skill and keep the crafting profession. It would be a lot cheaper to buy the materials for your potions/gems/etc. than it is to buy the potions/cut gems/etc. outright.

That leaves us with 1 'odd' one, the Engineer/Tailor. Could very well be as in the case I mentioned, dropping Mining for Tailoring. But then, could have just as likely been someone who dropped something for Engineering for the fun toy and epic goggles. ZOMG! Clothies forced to take Engineering! NERF PLZ!!1!

Sorry ... just it's getting harder and harder to take this thread seriously.

~~~Larissa

[rgirty]

No, it's BoE. The substance of it is fairly valid though. There are edges that other professions (Like enchanting as rgirty has highlighted) will give over other professions. Particularly in the DPS realm, which seems to be the major point for Astross here. Why aren't they being targeted?

Yes, I did but it got ignored. The reason is tailored epics are expected for a lot of raiders now as they provide the most +dmg you can actually see someone wearing it etc.

BoP +dmg ring enchants are new.

Tier 4 vs tailored set = +74dmg increase for the tailored person.

This will be overcome when that person picks up tier 5 and 6.

+12 dmg on each ring for a total of +24 is 1/3rd of what this epic thread is talking about that can never be matched.

This thread has gone on and on over this simple point:

The op does not feel like he should have to pickup tailoring to have a temporary leg up on content.

Thats it.

I'm going to turn this around.

Why don't you feel compelled to pickup tailoring AND enchanting. You will gain +98 dmg over those without those professions and +24 of that can never be matched.

Thats right, no matter if you are wearing tier 4, or tier 24 armor the way the game is made currently an enchanter will outdps anyone with equal gear because they have BoP enchants that can't be equaled by any other option from any other profession.

If you really want to min max, you need to make a new thread that says:

Clothies forced into tailoring/enchanting!

Because that is what should be happening, should you truly do your best in the raid you don't take 74 damage and leave 24 sitting on the table. You get all +98 so that you can bring your A game.

If you don't, that just means your gimping your raid that much more. Especially if you keep something like herbalism...What is herbalism really good for? One can buy any herb/pot they want from the auction house.

Why wouldn't you want to go enchanter/tailor so that you can have the most +dmg? As far as enchanting, no one can ever match it.

Do people really enjoy picking flowers and mixing chemicals that much?

I have threadquit once or twice but this was too good to pass up.

[Tanitha]

Just an example, obviously can't say this for everyone but, this looks to be part of the routine. More than likely yeah they wouldn't be wearing tailored sets with tier 5....but theyare tailors, they could have leveled tailoring for beginning raiding, not sure how this disproves anything.

Sure, and they could just as well have been tailors from the first time they trained their professions. I'm not sure how that disproves anything either.

The focus of this thread seems to be though that all clothies are forced to drop their professions for tailoring. Looking at the number of players out there, especially those in top guilds, seem to tell me that they are:

(a) Either tailors based on the synergistic profession combinations they have chosen. In that case it makes sense to use tailored gear over Tier 4, depending on your spec and if you are willing to sacrifice the massive stats + set bonus and +96 spell damage in three schools for +74 damage in two schools of magic.

(b) Have chosen to take up tailoring as a temporary measure. But, this is counterbalanced by the number of players that I checked in the armory who have not taken this route, rank in those raiding guilds and are using other epics OR even blues. In fact, for pure DPS there are players who outstrip those on Tailored epics using a combination of PvP and other gear.

This is balanced for me by the time factor. Nihilum might be the first, but once the tactics becomes known other guilds will follow suit. Raiders who are as dedicated to their craft as Astross seems to be will get their Tier 5 / Tier 6 eventually. Dropping a useful profession for +74 damage in two schools of magic? That seems a bit silly, sorry, and a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

All in all though, I do not believe that anyone is FORCED into tailoring. The facts seem to bear that out, although I'm sure opinion will differ.

[Astross]

A fair point. Dropping two professions seem a bit excessive though, wouldn't you say? Especially losing all the recipies/plans/etc. of the other crafting profession. Dropping a gathering / gold sink - maybe. But another profession? Doubtful.

But a question in return would be - how do YOU know that they dropped a profession for Tailoring?

Oh yeah, that's right. You don't either.

Now, come back with some facts please, but these assertions of some nebulous truth that does not seem to be matched by reality is getting rather tedious.



It wasn't an insult, it was a show of sympathy. Clearly your raiding gear outshining everyone else is very important to you. You'd said that only the best guilds would be getting Tier 5 / 6 and from your posts I'd gathered that you would not be getting Tier 5 or Tier 6.

If you are getting them eventually, what is your point with this whole thread? You'll outshine everybody anyway then.


oh tanitha, tanitha, tanitha...when will you ever learn?

it is impossible to get actual numbers of how many people have dropped professions to pick up tailoring. But what you can see across realms worldwide is that dps clothies are wearing tailored epics...now as for how many already had tailoring since the expac is anyones guess...but I would be willing to bet from my own personal observations that an enormous amount of people have soley picked up tailoring for only the tailored gear.



You obviously have no knowledge of raid progression and how long it takes a person to obtain a set of tier5. It takes months of hard work and tremendous amounts of teamwork and effort from everyone in the guild in order to clear SSC. Yes the top guilds in the world can breeze right through this place, that is why they are the top guilds in the world. As for everyone else..they spend months obtaining the gear they need in order to push their guild to and beyond SCC. People are switching to tailoring because they know they will not get their hands on tier5 for months to come(if lucky)...and it's sad that you don't really have any other choices in terms of +damage gear.

[Jhagut]

I love how blizzard has essentially forced all clothies to pick up tailoring and make your gear or you are going to get blown away on the damage/heal meters.

I have been herb/alch forever and have always enjoyed the professions, but now since the release of BC and all the new tailored epics...a dps caster(mage) as myself is forced to go tailoring to keep up with the raids damage output.

I have since dropped alchy to pick up tailoring and I will admit that the epics are very nice and awesome to have...but I can't wait to get some tier5 so I can drop tailoring and go back to my beloved alchemy.

Why does blizzard want all clothies to be tailors?

Why are tailored epics so overpowered that they practically force us to drop our current professions?

How many of you guys have dropped your professions in order to make those tailored epics?


gratz on joining the ignorant and uneducated WoWhiner club. Maybe if you spent less time crying you'd learn that it takes hundreds upon hundreds of gold just to reach 375 to make epic items, and THEN countless months of brain cell killing grinding for the mats to make those items, and THEN waiting ~2 months for the cooldown on the specialty cloth used to make them.

FYI those items you're ignorantly calling overpowered (only because you want them and can't have them unless you fix your initial screwup) are worth every damn stat they have. oh and BTW, epicsa aren't meant to be easy to get. Either you work for epic craftables via crafting, or work for your epic tier sets via lots of teaming. I suggest you complain less, pick a method and put your nose to the grindstone like everyone else has to. Your problem is that you're not willing to hit enough dungeons to work towards your own epics like all other non-tailors are doing.

edit: god what a jerk. I never made it past the first page and already had you pegged as ignorant and then went back and read how easy you call tailoring epics and revised my opinion. You're ignorance is of epic proportions. Please cancel your account.

[larissa]

oh tanitha, tanitha, tanitha...when will you ever learn?

Oh goodie, he's becoming condescending now. Can we do so in return now?

it is impossible to get actual numbers of how many people have dropped professions to pick up tailoring. But what you can see across realms worldwide is that dps clothies are wearing tailored epics...now as for how many already had tailoring since the expac is anyones guess...but I would be willing to bet from my own personal observations that an enormous amount of people have soley picked up tailoring for only the tailored gear.

Actually, no, it's quite easy. You could in fact start with your own guild. Get a list of all your clothie guildmates and ... oh, but here's the hard part ... ask them.

Perhaps if you came with some numbers from your own guild, it might have shown more kindly on your assertions that clothies are taking up tailoring in droves. Of course, your guild seemingly has the short-sightedness to demand Tailoring, so I suppose this wouldn't be a good sampling.

And of course you're seeing cloth wearers in cloth epics! A large majority of cloth wearers are Tailors! Most from the start of their careers! Darn those cloth-wearing Tailors ... how dare they make their top end cloth gear! How dare they!

You know, I don't know any Tailor who had dropped a profession for Tailoring. They all chose it from the start, or gathered with the intent of taking Tailoring later on. So from my own personal observations, absolutley no clothie was forced into Tailoring at all. Wow, generalizations are easy ... and fun!

You obviously have no knowledge of raid progression and how long it takes a person to obtain a set of tier5. It takes months of hard work and tremendous amounts of teamwork and effort from everyone in the guild in order to clear SSC. Yes the top guilds in the world can breeze right through this place, that is why they are the top guilds in the world. As for everyone else..they spend months obtaining the gear they need in order to push their guild to and beyond SCC. People are switching to tailoring because they know they will not get their hands on tier5 for months to come(if lucky)...and it's sad that you don't really have any other choices in terms of +damage gear.

And as we've shown, it takes the overwhelming majority of regular 'casual' gamers months to craft their epic sets.

I'm really failing to see what your point is now. You've now stated that you're in Serpentshrine. You've stated you've just taken up Tailoring the past week, and only had the belt at last count, for the set that didn't match your spec. So ... you clearly didn't need/use the Tailored set to make it into Serpertshrine. My only guess now is that you have your Tier 4, but you're not topping the damage meters of your raids, because others in your raid in tailored sets are beating you out.

~~~Larissa

[Astross]

gratz on joining the ignorant and uneducated WoWhiner club. Maybe if you spent less time crying you'd learn that it takes hundreds upon hundreds of gold just to reach 375 to make epic items, and THEN countless months of brain cell killing grinding for the mats to make those items, and THEN waiting ~2 months for the cooldown on the specialty cloth used to make them.

FYI those items you're ignorantly calling overpowered (only because you want them and can't have them unless you fix your initial screwup) are worth every damn stat they have. oh and BTW, epicsa aren't meant to be easy to get. Either you work for epic craftables via crafting, or work for your epic tier sets via lots of teaming. I suggest you complain less, pick a method and put your nose to the grindstone like everyone else has to. Your problem is that you're not willing to hit enough dungeons to work towards your own epics like all other non-tailors are doing.

edit: god what a jerk. I never made it past the first page and already had you pegged as ignorant and then went back and read how easy you call tailoring epics and revised my opinion. You're ignorance is of epic proportions. Please cancel your account.

I leveld tailoring to 375 in 3 days...its not hard. Already have made two of the epic pieces in little over a week. 10 days = 375 tailoring, 2 epic pieces....not hard, not hard at all.

Nice try on calling me ignorant, but I do in fact know how easy it is to get tailored epics.

Thank you, come again.

[Astross]

@Tanitha and Larissa

Please get more raiding experience before posting more.

Thank you.

[Tanitha]

Please get more raiding experience before posting more.

@Astross, sorry to disappoint you honey, but no. If you feel that your opinion is so weak that you cannot discuss the facts and need to resort to asking people to leave the thread, then maybe you should think about reconsidering your viewpoint? :laugh:

I can research and learn the facts. Facts which have been shared with you. Up until the time that you can actually back up ANY of your statements with even a hint of proof, then maybe I'll follow your "advice".

But while you're just making meaningless assertions based around your OPINION without any substance to them - I'm sorry - but my research WTFPWNs your comments.

So until that time, I'll stay right here.

[larissa]

I leveld tailoring to 375 in 3 days...its not hard. Already have made two of the epic pieces in little over a week. 10 days = 375 tailoring, 2 epic pieces....not hard, not hard at all.


Please include numbers: gold spent, cloth trades made, help from guildmates, time spent farming for Primals etc.

@Tanitha and Larissa

Please get more raiding experience before posting more.

Thank you.

@ Astross

Please support your assertions with at least a modicum of facts, rather than making baseless assertions and ignoring any facts presented to you that go against what you want to hear.

Thank you.

~~~Larissa

[poopsmcgee]

my wife's name is larissa. did ur mom watch dr.Zhivago while pregnant with you too? lol

[Jhagut]

I leveld tailoring to 375 in 3 days...its not hard. Already have made two of the epic pieces in little over a week. 10 days = 375 tailoring, 2 epic pieces....not hard, not hard at all.

Nice try on calling me ignorant, but I do in fact know how easy it is to get tailored epics.

Thank you, come again.


bullcrap. The only ones who can do that are players who have already been around a while and have the gold resources to PL a profession from 0-375 in a few days, apparently like you. Now if you put down your captain crunch bowl and pre-teen magazine for a minute you'd realize that for others who don't have those resources, your 3 days is many, many months for them.

Let me make sure I have this right though...

375 in 3 days. that's 100% gold spent on AH (assuming all the mats you needed just "happened" to be there all in those 3 days...), no grinding mats.

2 epic pieces in 7 days. Obviously you know about the cooldown on specialty cloth so you must have bought those along with the Primals too. Very Pricey! You must be very very rich! Just looking at a ballpark figure without calculating it all out, you've spent somewhere around 2k gold in 10 days.

I've just come up with a little theory: I think you're one of those losers who uses a visa on pixels to win at a video game. Want to know why I think this? Because if you have the time resources slap down that kind of gold for kicks, you have the time to be geared up in raid gear better than most of the ppl on your server. I think you're QQing because you can't buy raid gear on ebay and this forced you to max out your visa on gold to switch professions.

Oh wait, my bad, you're just really lucky as well as good at the AH! el-oh-el :laughing: :rolleyes:

[Jhagut]

@Tanitha and Larissa

Please get more raiding experience before posting more.

Thank you.

this doesn't add up. He implies that he has lots of raid experience. Wasn't he complaining near the beginning of this thread that he doesn't have time to raid and that's why he feels forced to go tailoring?

He also manages to have enough gold to PL a profession to 375 as well as outright buy all the high-price mats to make epic recipes but doesn't have time to raid? *sniff sniff* smells like someone's using a credit card instead of a keyboard and mouse.

Another clue is his join date on this forum: 2 months ago. While I'm sure it may be possible that he just recently decided to join one of the most well known forums for WoW, his post count of already 280 in 2 months makes it unlikely. Possible yes. Likely, no. This whole thing has all the hallmarks of an ebay gamer. I'm betting a look at his post history will give away more.

Can someone explain to me what I'm missing here, because Astross's assertions smell like BS. Either that or it's because they are BS.

[Tanitha]

2 epic pieces in 7 days. Obviously you know about the cooldown on specialty cloth so you must have bought those along with the Primals too. Very Pricey! You must be very very rich! Just looking at a ballpark figure without calculating it all out, you've spent somewhere around 2k gold in 10 days.

Based on pricing for her server Larissa worked out it is closer to 6300 gold to level it. So yes, not something people would generally do "easily" as that's the price of a flying mount at least. But then - I don't know how rich most people are. It's entirely possible that 6300 gold could be chump change for someone.

As to the postcount / gold buying implications. I don't think that is fair. It's entirely possible to do a kcma and haul gold off the Auction House with a wheelbarrow. If I were to put my mind to it I could make a thousand gold in a couple of weeks just using the kcma technique. For somebody who's been up and running for a while it'll be even easier.

And post count / join date here means nothing, generally. It just shows how long you've been in this community, not how long you've been active in World of Warcraft or perhaps part of one of the many other World of Warcraft communities.

[wisers]

oh tanitha, tanitha, tanitha...when will you ever learn?

[1]it is impossible to get actual numbers of how many people have dropped professions to pick up tailoring. But what you can see across realms worldwide is that dps clothies are wearing tailored epics...now as for how many already had tailoring since the expac is anyones guess...but I would be willing to bet from my own personal observations that an enormous amount of people have soley picked up tailoring for only the tailored gear.

[2]You obviously have no knowledge of raid progression and how long it takes a person to obtain a set of tier5. It takes months of hard work and tremendous amounts of teamwork and effort from everyone in the guild in order to clear SSC. Yes the top guilds in the world can breeze right through this place, that is why they are the top guilds in the world. As for everyone else..they spend months obtaining the gear they need in order to push their guild to and beyond SCC. People are switching to tailoring because they know they will not get their hands on tier5 for months to come(if lucky)...and it's sad that you don't really have any other choices in terms of +damage gear.

[1] then quite making it the backbone of your argument.

[2] please demonstrate your actual raiding knowledge. Most of us arn't making any raiding claims, we are looking to those who have achieved. Analyzing their gear setups, the professions they choose and attempting to make some logical deductions(whilst still admitting they are geusses). Your just eloquently (with some rambling mind you) stating "l2p".

Based on pricing for her server Larissa worked out it is closer to 6300 gold to level it. So yes, not something people would generally do "easily" as that's the price of a flying mount at least. But then - I don't know how rich most people are. It's entirely possible that 6300 gold could be chump change for someone.

As to the postcount / gold buying implications. I don't think that is fair. It's entirely possible to do a kcma and haul gold off the Auction House with a wheelbarrow. If I were to put my mind to it I could make a thousand gold in a couple of weeks just using the kcma technique. For somebody who's been up and running for a while it'll be even easier.

And post count / join date here means nothing, generally. It just shows how long you've been in this community, not how long you've been active in World of Warcraft or perhaps part of one of the many other World of Warcraft communities.

Tanitha you're too nice, sticking up for him like that. And its not even condesending. Way too nice.

However what I don't understand is how this guy talks about being the best, yet isn't an enchanter. Those BoP never gonna get replaced recipes that only you have access to are arguably what make enchanting the one profession that not only tailors must take, but all players. Otherwise your just 'piggybackin' along and not giving the raid your A game. Such nubbery is downright aweful, and a clear indication that a player has no raiding experience, power-leveled their character, and posesses an opinion that will always be wrong in the face of mine own!

[Leonavice]

Longest thread ever in the history of the professions forum. Can we beat KCMA's gold making thread?

For what it's worth, I picked up the 3 set Frozen Shadoweave to prepare for Kara so that my guild can have an easier time in Kara. Even for hardcore raiders, Kara is brutal.

[Astross]

And you've done what? People are screaming troll at this guy that for over 20 pages has been trying to have a nice little discussion about an important matter which is very valid, and all any of you can contribute is "QQ" or "Nu-uh! I like my epix!".

Blizz messed up their itemization from the start, this screw up benefitted the casuals however in turn created a stepping stone for raiders. Fact is is I never wanted that stepping stone and I'm sure many others feel the same way. "Forced" aka feeling pressured to level tailoring to keep up with standards. To be the best is to do anything you can be it skill or gear wise to prep you and your guildies for future content. This includes but is not limited to sacrificing a current profession to level tailoring. I can drop mining, but do I want to? Hell no. Yes I do not have to but there's a pretty good damn chance it might effect my future raiding. Join another guild? Oh ok....sure let me find another guild with free mage spots who happen to be at a point in progress where I am! T4 may be as good or almost as good as crafted gear? Ok, even if this was true the fact remains if you are a somewhat competent mage and already have your crafted epics you are probably getting that kara spot. Grats you just put your foot in the door, yes John Q. Noepix can do the same but it's obvious who would be preferred.

I honestly don't see the point of typing anything. It seems like most people just skim through real quick to fuel their motivation to post another "QQ" comment. I won't deny some useful and decent debate has been added here but for the most part alot of people are pretty biased. You may be insulted by the fact that he asks for a certain criteria when posting, but when it concerns wow its actually a pretty valid request due to the amount of a.d.d. in the wow community. I've posted earlier on this and I'm not as much behind it as I used to be, but only because nothing can be done, and in that I've moved on(despite this rant!). Regardless, the fact remains yes this is alot of pressure on raiders, and in related news I've recently retired from raiding(realizing my stress over polygons got me through!). There should be other ways to achieve similar levels of equip between raiders/casuals without having to commit a profession to it.


Finally a decent post in this thread....I almost lost it in the clutter of garbage that is being posted here.

This is exactly what I started this thread to discuss...thank you for the reply.


In my opinion Blizzard did mess up on the tailored epics itemization...the +spell damage is so great that all dps casters are passing up tier4 and any kara/gruul/mag loot and I don't think Blizzard intended for this to happen.

To anyone who doesn't think that the majority of raiding casters don't use tailored epics...you just don't know anything about raiding...the fact is that if you don't have tailored epics...you are not only gimping yourself, but the entire raid...and good luck trying to apply to a new guild or geting a raidspot over someone with tailored epics.

There is a reason for the mass influx of dps casters lvling tailoring just to make this gear...it's the best gear you will see for a long, long time and is almost just as good as tier5 which is better than most will ever see.

Tailoring should be a stepping stone to tier4 gear, with better patterns dropping along the way...when some guy can just borrow 5000g from a friend or buy gold from a 3rd party, and make 5 pieces of gear that is better than anything you will get in kara/gruul/mags, and have all those pieces equiped in under an hour...something needs to be fixed.

What Blizzard is doing is stabbing a stick into the eyes of raiders...while the casuals sit back with a big smile and laugh about how easy it is to get some awesome epics from some simple farming.

If Blizzard just made the tier4 spell damage and the tailored epic spell damage the same...it would make everyone happy...casual tailors can still get good gear...raiders can actually use their tier4 and not have to drop a profession to get something better.

[DraedynLei]

The problem with this thread and most other complaints about this game stem from the fact that most people can only see the game from their own narrow point of view which they see as the only "true" and valid one. Astross obviously thinks raiders are the uber elite and are more worthy than other types of players so he feels the game should be designed to his specifications. Casuals should only be looked down upon and scorned by the "real" players.

I especially like how he compliments all the posts that agree with him as "intelligent" and shrugs off contrary views as nonsense. I get a kick out of that everytime. LOL. The rampart hypocrisy in his comments are also hilarious to read. He constantly accuses others of the same tactics he uses and doesn't see it himself, or does and just chooses to ignore it.

Luckily blizzard is a business and knows where its meal ticket is. I've moved from commenting on the original topic to the thread itself... hmm never a good sign.

[zzzzzzz]

Finally a decent post in this thread....I almost lost it in the clutter of garbage that is being posted here.

This is exactly what I started this thread to discuss...thank you for the reply.


In my opinion Blizzard did mess up on the tailored epics itemization...the +spell damage is so great that all dps casters are passing up tier4 and any kara/gruul/mag loot and I don't think Blizzard intended for this to happen.

To anyone who doesn't think that the majority of raiding casters don't use tailored epics...you just don't know anything about raiding...the fact is that if you don't have tailored epics...you are not only gimping yourself, but the entire raid...and good luck trying to apply to a new guild or geting a raidspot over someone with tailored epics.

There is a reason for the mass influx of dps casters lvling tailoring just to make this gear...it's the best gear you will see for a long, long time and is almost just as good as tier5 which is better than most will ever see.

Tailoring should be a stepping stone to tier4 gear, with better patterns dropping along the way...when some guy can just borrow 5000g from a friend or buy gold from a 3rd party, and make 5 pieces of gear that is better than anything you will get in kara/gruul/mags, and have all those pieces equiped in under an hour...something needs to be fixed.

What Blizzard is doing is stabbing a stick into the eyes of raiders...while the casuals sit back with a big smile and laugh about how easy it is to get some awesome epics from some simple farming.

If Blizzard just made the tier4 spell damage and the tailored epic spell damage the same...it would make everyone happy...casual tailors can still get good gear...raiders can actually use their tier4 and not have to drop a profession to get something better.


As much as I hate to admit it you are correct in your statement where alot of higher end guilds won't even consider your app unless you are either working on or have your tailored gear. On our guild site it says "don't even bother to apply unless you are a tailor because you are obviously NOT serious about your class". But then again we have two Locks now that are not affliction and are not tailor's as the Tier 4 gear seems to meet their needs more so its not totally useless.

Remember though Tier4 is just a stepping stone and just the beginning to Tier5. Tier4 should be buffed yeah but its too late now if they had any chance of addressing it it would have been done in this last patch. Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with the tailored sets its just that Tier 4 should be buffed. They will NOT buff up Tier 4 anymore so the only other option would be to nerf tailoring items (which damn near happened) so I prefer to just keep it as it is and say thanks to Blizz for giving tailors some uber gear options.

BTW I geared up my tailoring in 3 days and it took 2k gold. If you know where to farm its not hard to make 2 to 3 hundred gold in a day and get plenty of Netherweave cloth to go along with it. Really what cost me the most is buying out the shadowcloth and dust to create my epics. If your a casual player then its not as simple so as these pieces may not essentually reward the raider it does howerver reward the hard core player I just happen to be both :wink:

[mesonm]

nvm...I keep telling myself to stay out of the thread....trying.....

[Herald of Doom]

The problem with this thread and most other complaints about this game stem from the fact that most people can only see the game from their own narrow point of view which they see as the only "true" and valid one. Astross obviously thinks raiders are the uber elite and are more worthy than other types of players so he feels the game should be designed to his specifications. Casuals should only be looked down upon and scorned by the "real" players.

I especially like how he compliments all the posts that agree with him as "intelligent" and shrugs off contrary views as nonsense. I get a kick out of that everytime. LOL. The rampart hypocrisy in his comments are also hilarious to read. He constantly accuses others of the same tactics he uses and doesn't see it himself, or does and just chooses to ignore it.

Luckily blizzard is a business and knows where its meal ticket is. I've moved from commenting on the original topic to the thread itself... hmm never a good sign.
Uhm, what? Tailoring isn't exactly easy to level, but it's a LOT easier than clearing a serious raiddungeon. And tailored epics are *better* than a lot of the epic drops. So let's summarize:

1) Lots of top guilds require you to have tailored epics
2) Those epics will outdamage tier4
3) Tailored epics are hard to obtain, but certainly not as hard as raidloot.

Don't judge the messenger, judge the message. If you feel I'm wrong or misinformed, please don't hesitate to try and persuade me!

PS: I didn't read the thread, sorry if I'm repeating :p

HoD

[Astross]

As much as I hate to admit it you are correct in your statement where alot of higher end guilds won't even consider your app unless you are either working on or have your tailored gear. On our guild site it says "don't even bother to apply unless you are a tailor because you are obviously NOT serious about your class". But then again we have two Locks now that are not affliction and are not tailor's as the Tier 4 gear seems to meet their needs more so its not totally useless.

Remember though Tier4 is just a stepping stone and just the beginning to Tier5. Tier4 should be buffed yeah but its too late now if they had any chance of addressing it it would have been done in this last patch. Honestly I don't think there is anything wrong with the tailored sets its just that Tier 4 should be buffed. They will NOT buff up Tier 4 anymore so the only other option would be to nerf tailoring items (which damn near happened) so I prefer to just keep it as it is and say thanks to Blizz for giving tailors some uber gear options.

BTW I geared up my tailoring in 3 days and it took 2k gold. If you know where to farm its not hard to make 2 to 3 hundred gold in a day and get plenty of Netherweave cloth to go along with it. Really what cost me the most is buying out the shadowcloth and dust to create my epics. If your a casual player then its not as simple so as these pieces may not essentually reward the raider it does howerver reward the hard core player I just happen to be both :wink:

Every dps caster that is serious about raiding and serious about obtaining the best gear possible is a Tailor...simple as that. If you chose not to become a Tailor, you are gimping yourself whether you think so or not.

Ya it would make sense that tier4 would be a "stepping stone" for tier5; however, that is not the case. Tier4 is a more like a "stepping pebble"... its only used to fill up the gear slots that tailored pieces are not taking up. There is just something not right when all the casters in the group pass on tier4 drops...

And yes, lvling tailoring in three days is not hard...as zzzzzz as also indicated.

Anyone who thinks lvling tailoring is hard is either:
a) not knowledgeable of proper farming locations.
b) not smart enough to DE all the green items you pick up for arcane dust.
c) doesn't know how to budget their gold.
d) does not have friends to borrow spellcloth/shadoweave cooldowns from.
e) did not save all the netherweave cloth they have picked up.
f) does not know how to thotbot/wowhead for powerleveling information.

Anyone who has the any knowledge of the game can lvl tailoring in under a week and spend less that 1000g...not hard to do.

[Rex Normal]

Every dps caster that is serious about raiding and serious about obtaining the best gear possible is a Tailor...simple as that. If you chose not to become a Tailor, you are gimping yourself whether you think so or not.

Ya it would make sense that tier4 would be a "stepping stone" for tier5; however, that is not the case. Tier4 is a more like a "stepping pebble"... its only used to fill up the gear slots that tailored pieces are not taking up. There is just something not right when all the casters in the group pass on tier4 drops...

And yes, lvling tailoring in three days is not hard...as zzzzzz as also indicated.

Anyone who thinks lvling tailoring is hard is either:
a) not knowledgeable of proper farming locations.
b) not smart enough to DE all the green items you pick up for arcane dust.
c) doesn't know how to budget their gold.
d) does not have friends to borrow spellcloth/shadoweave cooldowns from.
e) did not save all the netherweave cloth they have picked up.
f) does not know how to thotbot/wowhead for powerleveling information.

Anyone who has the any knowledge of the game can lvl tailoring in under a week and spend less that 1000g...not hard to do.

Well here's the thing, my main (warlock) is not a tailor. I'm not gonna drop my professions (alch/herb) for tailoring even tho I know I could easily get better gear by doing so. Why? because I don't equate gear = with status or skill. I consider myself a pretty good player and don't conform to the cookie cutter templates that most players use to be the "best". I raid with destruction spec with a few PvP epics and a lucky epic world drop, the rest are blues, and I do just fine raiding Kara. I may not be the top of the damage meter with another afflock in tailored epics, but as long as the boss is dead it doesn't matter. Anyone who has such a narrow view of the game to think that I'm any less of a player because of my gear doesn't deserve to group with me.

Gear can compensate for playing poorly, but if you are a good player, you aren't "forced" into anything.

I do agree that the tailored epics are a bit overpowered in that they are so easy to get. My priest, who has been a tailor since pre-BC, will be lvl 70 soon and I already have 2 of the 3 pieces crafted for the primal mooncloth set. At the very least there should be questlines to learn these patterns so that one could at least say they've earned the right to wear them, but complaining that you have to drop your profession to be effective in raids is really just an admission of your own lack of skill.

[Nuuk]

Ho all,

I figured I should give a real life tale of my recent tailoring adventures. I decided that I WAS gimping myself by not being a tailor and my guild is just now getting the numbers and gear to start thinking about Kara.

I started with about 200 gold and zero tailoring skill. In TWO WEEKS I had all 3 pieces of the spellfire set. It's really not that hard at level 70. From 1 to 300 it's not expensive to buy all the materials. It gets a little pricey at 300+ but not too bad until the higher end imbued stuff. I made spellcloth every 4 days and bought the rest at 50g per cloth. 5 gold for a stack of netherweave. I basically farmed primals and sold them to make almost all of the money it took.

I estimate that in those 2 weeks I probably spent a total of 3000 gold and I started with only 200g. It's not hard if you put some effort in to it. This was playing probably 3-4 hours a night and a few more on weekends (and still doing BG's)

I spent the next week farming more mats and gold and I bought the spellstrike pants (woot) and i'm now in week four and half way to the spellstrike hood.


I went from being a fairly new 70 with pretty low end gear to being well on my way to uberness. You can do it to!

happy farming

-Nuuk

[larissa]

Finally a decent post in this thread....I almost lost it in the clutter of garbage that is being posted here.

This is exactly what I started this thread to discuss...thank you for the reply.

Ah, yes, a good morning chuckle over my sips of coffee, thank you.

And, let's be clear ... it should be "This is exactly what I wanted to hear when I started this thread ... thank you for your reply"

In my opinion Blizzard did mess up on the tailored epics itemization...the +spell damage is so great that all dps casters are passing up tier4 and any kara/gruul/mag loot and I don't think Blizzard intended for this to happen.

To anyone who doesn't think that the majority of raiding casters don't use tailored epics...you just don't know anything about raiding...the fact is that if you don't have tailored epics...you are not only gimping yourself, but the entire raid...and good luck trying to apply to a new guild or geting a raidspot over someone with tailored epics.

There is a reason for the mass influx of dps casters lvling tailoring just to make this gear...it's the best gear you will see for a long, long time and is almost just as good as tier5 which is better than most will ever see.

Well, since you refuse to do it, I had a look at your guild.

You have 25 casters Rank 3 and above, I'm presuming the others are alts and such.

15 of those cloth-users have Tailoring. So a full 40% of clothies in _your own guild_ don't feel they have to take up Tailoring.

Of those 15, a whole 3 of them are in full tailored gear. Another 4 use one or two pieces of tailored gear. So not even 25% of your guild uses Tailored epics. (Another 4 were in gear that I presume is used for arenas, as the +damage/heal on them were horrendous for a guild supposedly attempting Serpentshrine).

It's interesting to see that the one with the top +spell damage in fact wears no tailored gear, and is not a tailor themselves. Also interesting is that the top +heal is a Priest _not_ in Primal Mooncloth.

Now I think I get to the crux of things. It seems that a mage in full Tailored gear has an impressive +867 spell damage (I don't know, is that very good for damage gear in Serpentshrine/the Eye?), second best +damage in your guild. Could this be the source of your consternation? Could this be why you feel 'forced' to take tailoring (yes, I say you specifically, not in general, as even your own guild doesn't support your hypothesis)? You feel 'gimped' that you can't compete with this other mage, and feel the only way to do so is to make the tailored items yourself? Why do you feel this? There are 3 Warlocks in your guild with higher +damage than yourself, and _none_ of them wear any Tailored gear.

To be honest, I can't believe that you are taking on upper tier raid dungeons. My own +damage equals or surpasses that of a lot of your guildmates (and is virtually equal to yours). This gear is comprised of normal 5-person instance blues, and the epic gavel from Lower City.

Now, I can see if you had started your argument with "Hey, my damage gear seems subpar to that of my guildmates. The only way I see of being able to keep up with them is to take up Tailoring", then perhaps this discussion would have gone a different way. But to make sweeping, unfounded and inaccurate generalizations, and the constant 'looking down' upon those who are not top raiders, leaves a sour taste in the mouths of many here.

Tailoring should be a stepping stone to tier4 gear, with better patterns dropping along the way...when some guy can just borrow 5000g from a friend or buy gold from a 3rd party, and make 5 pieces of gear that is better than anything you will get in kara/gruul/mags, and have all those pieces equiped in under an hour...something needs to be fixed.

You have no clue what it is like for a casual player, do you? I'm perhaps one of the 'hardest core' players amongst my circle of friends. I have 1500 gold as of last night, after doing a ton of quests and getting about 150 gold. No one I know just happens to have 5000 gold 'lying around' to lend away. I'm sure this is the case for a large majority of people. It took me two months to make my Primal Mooncloth. I'm still gathering material for make the Whitemend set (which I will farm the patterns for, as I cannot see paying 200+ gold each for someone elses Primal Nethers).

Buying third party gold is not allowed in the game, and should not be considered an option. You could just as easily say that a hacker could modify the game files to find an exploit to kill all the bosses and get their Tier loot.

And for the love of all that is good and right in the world, please stop exaggerating the point that you can supposedly make these things in 'under and hour'. It can't be done, and you've even shown it to be so, taking over 10 days with only the 2 'easy' epics made so far.

What Blizzard is doing is stabbing a stick into the eyes of raiders...while the casuals sit back with a big smile and laugh about how easy it is to get some awesome epics from some simple farming.

If Blizzard just made the tier4 spell damage and the tailored epic spell damage the same...it would make everyone happy...casual tailors can still get good gear...raiders can actually use their tier4 and not have to drop a profession to get something better.

Yes, because Tier 5 and Tier 6 absolutely suck compared to Tailored gear, as do all the other epic drops for things Tailors can't ever make (rings, trinkets, weapons, offhands, wands, necklaces). Yep, Blizzard really stuck it to you raiders. All you need is those 5 pieces of gear, and you're done. Gratz, you won WoW!

Must have been hell on you to keep farming Karazhan for the Tier loot for the non-clothies. Because, after all, it's all about you and your gear. When will you get a new gear upgrade?!?!? (beyond the 8 or so other slots ... but they don't count, obviously). Oh wait ...

... you've cleared all the content that your Tailored epics were a help for, and _now_ you're making them? What doesn't add up here? Why are you not in your full Tier 4, nuking your way to Tier 5 in Serpentshrine?

I have to say I'm glad I'm on dry land here, your boat seems to have quite the number of leaks in it.

~~~Larissa

[Zuline]

Larissa pwned Astross (again)

[zzzzzzz]

Well here's the thing, my main (warlock) is not a tailor. I'm not gonna drop my professions (alch/herb) for tailoring even tho I know I could easily get better gear by doing so. Why? because I don't equate gear = with status or skill. I consider myself a pretty good player and don't conform to the cookie cutter templates that most players use to be the "best". I raid with destruction spec with a few PvP epics and a lucky epic world drop, the rest are blues, and I do just fine raiding Kara. I may not be the top of the damage meter with another afflock in tailored epics, but as long as the boss is dead it doesn't matter. Anyone who has such a narrow view of the game to think that I'm any less of a player because of my gear doesn't deserve to group with me.

Gear can compensate for playing poorly, but if you are a good player, you aren't "forced" into anything.

I do agree that the tailored epics are a bit overpowered in that they are so easy to get. My priest, who has been a tailor since pre-BC, will be lvl 70 soon and I already have 2 of the 3 pieces crafted for the primal mooncloth set. At the very least there should be questlines to learn these patterns so that one could at least say they've earned the right to wear them, but complaining that you have to drop your profession to be effective in raids is really just an admission of your own lack of skill.

Ok really its not that tailoring epic are OP'ed it's more that the T4 is a bit under powered. Really with some of these raid encounters the Epic pieces are needed especially before the last patch when these encounters were alot tougher. Gruul and Mags (the channelers part) are heavy DPS encounters. You need to down Gruul before he gets in to many grows and the channelers need to be DPS'ed down fast prior to Mags spawning. Without some of this tailored gear it would be MUCH harder to do these fights. Honestly putting the blame on the tailoring stuff is incorrect. It would be hard to get the T4 crap without the tailoring, problem is when you do finally get the T4 to drop its just not worth it to actually use the items. So should tailoring be nerfed? No T4 should be buffed to reflect the difficulty it takes to get these items.