Mag's lair & SSC.. vets pls help

[Regrets]

Hey,
As I was going to start on Mag this week & SSC after we conquered it.. I need some heads up advice on the tanks issue. Considering I got a feral druid ready to offtank anytime(quite decently gear for either dps/ot) , 3 warriors (decently geared with kara epics) . Having one full prot as MT is unevitable, so what shld the 2 other warriors spec be? Do they necessarily need to be in prot spec or rather can I say do the spare warriors need to be dpsing or most of the time will they be tanking? I have no issues with the feral since he can do both very well in a single spec. But warriors , have to really choose the right spec? Can someone show me the light here? Really need to settle this fast & disseminate the info for my warriors so they know what they will be expecting @ the higher tier dungeons.

Thanks in advance for the inputs :) Hopefully someone give a helping hand to me :afro:

[Arthengel]

I am currently full arms/fury spec. At mag lair I am offtanking some trash, then I tank the second channeler in dps gear, then take my 2hander and join dps.

What you need is 3 MT specced chars (feral druid counts, yes), and 2 hybrids.

5MT specs make the fight harder, since dps plays an important role.

[WatcherZero]

For Hydross you need A High NR tank and a high Frost tank. you might want to start getting a couple of each ready.

[Regrets]

Okok, any more inputs? Thanks for the replies

[Telmar]

I'd advise having at least 2 prot, with the others as fury/prot or arms/prot. A dps warrior adds almost nothing to your raid that a prot hybrid doesnt. With a prot hybrid you have a viable offtank too.

[Arthengel]

I'd advise having at least 2 prot, with the others as fury/prot or arms/prot. A dps warrior adds almost nothing to your raid that a prot hybrid doesnt. With a prot hybrid you have a viable offtank too.

Please refer to "Arms Warrior PVE Dps" thread on warrior forums of these boards. You will see what can be done with 0 points in prot (tank netherspite - dps nightbane efficiently, or tank 2nd channeler in dps gear - dps mag efficiently).

[Telmar]

I'd rather refer to my guild who've had mag on farm for a significant length of time now thanks :)

Tanking netherspite isnt exactly hard... We have hunters do it if we're lacking warriors, the red beam eliminates the need for threat generation or decent HP.

If you're so sure, then can you please point me in the direction of what a pure DPS spec warrior brings to a raid that a prot hybrid doesnt?

[Arthengel]

I'd rather refer to my guild who've had mag on farm for a significant length of time now thanks :)

Tanking netherspite isnt exactly hard... We have hunters do it if we're lacking warriors, the red beam eliminates the need for threat generation or decent HP.

If you're so sure, then can you please point me in the direction of what a pure DPS spec warrior brings to a raid that a prot hybrid doesnt?



Since you have started with Mag, I'll tell you: I am tanking the second channeler at mag in dps gear with a shield. Threat generation rate is irrelevant, as till dps kills the 1st channeler I have more than enough threat on my mob so that dps can nuke.

Then I am taking my 2 hander and going above the hunters, and racing with mages in dps charts. So, added dps. I am fairly new to dpsing in raids (been an MT always), and still working on my setup, build and strategies. Hope soon I'll be competing with rogues. Also I give blood frenzy and battle shout with commanding presence to rogues.

We also are farming mag.

Also, I tank adds in large pulls in tanking gear in 25 mans (i.e. SSC) . How? Well, see the above paragaraph for threat generation.

When you have 14k armor, 1k added armor from prot talent does not really matter with a trash. Same with 20 def talent, when you have 500 defense without it.

So appearently you will need to refer to some other sources of information from time to time as well. :grin:

There are many guilds (including Nihilum) doing this. In 40 mans you had the luxury of bringing 5 prot specced MT's. In 25 mans, this will make your life very hard.

[Valshenna]

On this whole tanking issue, could anyone lend some advice on how well druids and pallies tank on Mags and in SSC, the Eye, and beyond? I play a feral druid, and so far I've been tanking everything in Karazhan with little if any trouble on anything. Nightbane is proving problematic, but that's mostly because our warrior is a bit . . . slow, making the fears a problem.

Last week our guild stepped foot into Gruul's Lair for the first time, and we one-shot the High King and went on to down Gruul on our third attempt (at 17 growths). I tanked the Shaman, a prot warrior was on the king, and the fight was a cakewalk. For Gruul it was a Prot Warrior as MT and I was OT. MT died at around 20%, and I took over until Gruul was almost dead. I ended up dying, but the raid was still able to put him down.

But how well can I expect to do beyond Gruul's? Much opportunity for MTing? Offtanking? Or should I plan instead on mostly doing dps/backup healing?

[Arthengel]

Ferals are ok as 25man MT's. Paladins are ok for karazhan, and will be buffed to be able to MT 25 mans.

In the official forums an angry paladin tank asked if paladins will be able to tank 25 mans or not, so that they'll get geared accordingly.

Here is the answer of Tseric:

“The devs actually mentioned today that Paladin tanking wasn't exactly where they wanted it to be and there would be attention paid towards that end of things. Overall, they do expect Paladins, Druids and Warriors to fill tanking roles in end-game, whatever they may be. While there may be a flavor distinction between tanks, we don't want to (or want the players to) find some rigid hierarchy by which classes are measured in their tanking potential to the third decimal point.“

[Telmar]

I wouldnt like a feral main tanking mag or morogrim, simply due to the fact they hit STUPIDLY hard, but slowly, so shield block is invaluable. Anything else i would say a feral MT is fine.

[Oatmealsmurf]

And there is a reason you are tanking the 2nd add in mag instead of the 3rd, 4th or 5th. I realize you are trying to justify your spec but don't misrepresent the reality. Having a DPS warrior tanking the first assisted target in SSC trash or the 2nd channeler in Mag means nothing. I mean we have a dps warrior doing that two... big whoop... the fact that you don't need to put on tanking gear to do it though illustrates exactly how much it isn't really tanking.

You aren't going to take any seriously hard hits in that spec for any length of time.

[Arthengel]

And there is a reason you are tanking the 2nd add in mag instead of the 3rd, 4th or 5th. I realize you are trying to justify your spec but don't misrepresent the reality. Having a DPS warrior tanking the first assisted target in SSC trash or the 2nd channeler in Mag means nothing. I mean we have a dps warrior doing that two... big whoop... the fact that you don't need to put on tanking gear to do it though illustrates exactly how much it isn't really tanking.

You aren't going to take any seriously hard hits in that spec for any length of time.

I really do not understand your point here.

Are you suggesting dps warrior tanking 2nd add in dps gear does not benefit the raid?

At SSC trashes I also put tanking gear and tank the mob that will die second or third.

4 mobs, I dps.

5 mobs, I tank 2nd.

Why not the first? So that threat generation is not a problem.

Why I dont need imp shield block? No, Because lvl 72 elite mob doesnt crush.

How much defense do I have? 503, so I dont need anticipation, and I am crit immune.

How much AC do I have? 14.5k, so I can live without toughness.

Boss fight? All out dps.

At boss, I am all out dps somewhere between 4th-7th on the damage meters, also providing improved battle shout and blood frenzy to rogues. (Only hydross is a problem which I will be sorting soon).

Now all of these sums to a significant increase of the raid dps, which is done by somebody filling a tanking spot.

I am not theorycrafting here, I am actually doing it 5 days a week.

Want me spec prot? Just to tank some trash?

Then I am just above healers on the damage meter.

I can not put it more simpler.

[Regrets]

I go with Arth, his reasoning is fair . I dont see the point of having too much prot warriors in 25man as dps plays an important part. Since he got more than enough def for crit immune, as long as he dun lose aggro to the healer on his mob, i think its fair to go to DPS spec, in fact its better unless the mob hit so hard that healer gotta spam heals on him & end up OOM @ the later stage, apparently though u can only do that kind of spec if u already had decent tanking gears from kara or such.

Anyway the argument is between a Hybrid warrior vs a Pure DPS spec warrior in raid(which i see no purpose) becuz both are useful in a raid. Considering u have 5 tanks, u probably wanna consider that the most u want ur raid to have is 2 prot tank & probably a few hybrids & a pure DPS spec warrior who still can offtank in tanking gear if needed.

Lets close this case & concentrate in giving tips for me pls lol.. I'm starting SSC soon, so tell me which boss shld i go first?? :( And how many tanks do I need for each boss. I wanted to go hydross first since we got the resist gears up, but the other thread suggest that hydross is hard , I dont really mind training on that particular boss & get stuck for a while, but of cuz not those kind of more than 2 raids stuck, i will feel fugged :P

[Oatmealsmurf]

I really do not understand your point here.

Are you suggesting dps warrior tanking 2nd add in dps gear does not benefit the raid?

I'm suggesting that's no mean feat and using that as one of your great examples of tanking ability in arms spec is misleading at best because you wouldn't hold up tanking the third add in that spec.


4 mobs, I dps.

5 mobs, I tank 2nd.

Why not the first? So that threat generation is not a problem.

And why not the third, fourth or fifth? Because you can't survive that long... where a prot hybrid can and even tank two in a pinch. And if something happens to one of the full prots you don't have the ability take hold of the boss and save a wipe because you get one shot like the rest of us.

And no I'm not telling you to spec prot... do whatever works for you I don't care.

What I am telling you after that last post though is that your other DPS classes aren't pulling their weight if you are specced arms and are finishing 4th on a 25 man damage meter in any fight... and even then you'd do a better job as fury.

My point is you aren't giving advice based on what people in general can accomplish... you are giving advice from the perspective of someone justifying taking their arms (traditionally a non raiding spec) spec into a raid. This is reminiscent of the whole DPS pally argument. Can it be done? Yeah with the right gear and the right player... Is it feasible for most? No not really.


Regrets... as to which boss first... depends on if you have the resist gear and how determined and disciplined your raid force is. If you have both... I say go for Hydross... because once he's down it's like coasting until Vashj... If you don't have the resist gear there is absolutely no point... go for the Lurker... and if your guild's morale breaks easily I would go with lurker too...

[Regrets]

Thanks for the advice, I think my raid force is strong, in terms of discipline & morale.. I will give them a heads up before we go in & have fun with hydross..Thanks again,appreciated all who helped :)

[Felix Niebuhr]

To come to Arts rescue against oatmeal, I do just that, tank 3. channeler in DPS gear. Im doing a 41/5/15 spec, so not pure DPS. I also need 2 tanking trinkets which I keep as long as I can. I use Moroes and the 30 def one that raises my block bonus, one at a time. I disarm when the 2. channeler go down. I use greater runes of shielding initially, and a defense pot to even the odds a little. Its totally necessary to have imp TC and demo shout up, and sometimes its pure panic, but I do it :). Then I run to the 4. and whack him with my sword, DPS is still decent on Mag.

If you can get away with using an Offtank instead of full protection then thats preffererable, he can up the DPS when he isn`t tanking. As second tank in Khar or as fifth tank in a 25 man regardless. And when are you arms and when are you hybrid? Seems you draw a for you very clear line somewhere that I for one cant see Oatmeal?

[WatcherZero]

I wouldnt like a feral main tanking mag or morogrim, simply due to the fact they hit STUPIDLY hard, but slowly, so shield block is invaluable. Anything else i would say a feral MT is fine.

We use a feral Main tank on morogrim for two reasons:

1: Feral takes less dmg more often, whereas our normal MT takes no dmg whatsoever for 10 seconds then can through an unlucky streak take 3 large hits totalling his health. Its a lot easier to heal constant dmg than spiky dmg.

2: Frees our main tank up for gathering up the adds to be aoe'ed.

Never tried using a feral on Magtheridon but I shouldnt imagine it to be too hard as with a normal MT phase two is a snoozefest to heal, taking almost no dmg I spend half my time wanding and regenning mana.

[Arthengel]

I'm suggesting that's no mean feat and using that as one of your great examples of tanking ability in arms spec is misleading at best because you wouldn't hold up tanking the third add in that spec.

How can I posiibly be misleading? Everybody knows what is arms, what is dps gear, what is tanking.

And why not the third, fourth or fifth? Because you can't survive that long... where a prot hybrid can and even tank two in a pinch.

No, please read the full post. It is not about survivability, in tanking gear I can survive trashes forever. Just when I equip my 2handed axe I have 20% crit, in tanking gear. (Buffed ofc), and there are full prot tanks there that do only tanking, so I join dps because I can, better efficiency.

I took a lot of time to explain how survivability on trashes is not an issue.

And if something happens to one of the full prots you don't have the ability take hold of the boss and save a wipe because you get one shot like the rest of us.

Past molten core 90% of the raid bosses are non tauntable, even if they are tauntable, there are prot warriors and bears to take care of it. If I am not assigned to tanking at the beginning, I get dps class buffs, not tank buffs even.

What I am telling you after that last post though is that your other DPS classes aren't pulling their weight if you are specced arms and are finishing 4th on a 25 man damage meter in any fight... and even then you'd do a better job as fury.

My point is you aren't giving advice based on what people in general can accomplish... you are giving advice from the perspective of someone justifying taking their arms (traditionally a non raiding spec) spec into a raid. This is reminiscent of the whole DPS pally argument. Can it be done? Yeah with the right gear and the right player... Is it feasible for most? No not really.

They are, our dps is really good. We clear whole karazhan under 4 hours now, also we kill Gruul, world bosses and Mag in 3 and half hours. Arms warrior dps? Yes, controversy and unintended things by Blizz is involved... They nerfed us constantly (most nerfed class though the life of wow). They had to nerf flurry in the last patch ffs, after 2 years into the game!!! Yet we still can come with our MS spec, 2 hander, plates, and pop 4th - 5th on the dmg meter, outdamaging mages and locks. I am not the only one.

Well, 47% crit in raid, 2.4k AP, with a 513 max dmg axe... sounds insane right? No, it is not, very doable, if you are farming karazhan, gruul, mag, and world bosses, and a good raid leader that puts a feral in your group.

Answer is the right gear, right spec, right and agressive gameplay. Check Nihilum warriors: half of them are 33/28/0 specced!!!

There is a topic on warrior forums on arms warrior pve dps. This is being discussed ike mad all over on the different forum sites. (i.e. eiltist jerks)

Wake up!!!!

[Telmar]

You say you finish 4th. Im assuming (if your rogues are decent) that they're finishing 1,2,3 then ?

If so, why would they put a feral druid in your group with the rogues, when they benefit so much more from a shaman and WF ? They're the ones topping the damage meters, not you.

[Arthengel]

Uhm, i didnt say I finish 4th, in fact we reset dmg meter 5-6 times in a raid.

When I am not tanking, on trashes I am averaging 4-6th, and yes, usually we have 1-2-3 rogues, occasionally a shadowpriest, or one particular mage sneaks in. but of course rogues drop, along with me in melee unfriendly fights, like when running away from gruul because of caving.

On boss fights I tend to be 5th-8th. Hydross, it is worse since he is an elemental, I am losing a good 6-7% of my dps there, in addition I have piercing howling the adds duty.

Now windfury against 5% crit is another discussion. Does windfury benefit me more? Do rogues prefer extra 5%crit?

I even dunno what spec shamans can give windfury lol, yes, been alliance all the time :)

[Telmar]

Rogues (im a rogue :P) will prefer windfury by a long way, which they can get from any shaman. If you're using a 2h, then windfury will benefit you HUGELY compared to any other group buff (barring bshout, which you provide anyhow).

One tip I would suggest on Gruul btw, while you mention it, is to just run round him if you get cave-in. Until he hits grow 8+ you should have healers spare to top up melee anyhow.

[Arthengel]

Gief windfury+drood aura :D

[Felix Niebuhr]

2 rogues would want; a druid, a shaman and a warrior in their group if they were allowed to choose freely. And all would be happy. Thats 5% extra crit, windfury and imp Battleshout. The combined DPS of such a group would out-DPS a pure rogue group im sure.

Those really against an Arms specced DPS warrior are talking 5-man instances and act like they know raiding.

[Oatmealsmurf]

How can I posiibly be misleading? Everybody knows what is arms, what is dps gear, what is tanking.



No, please read the full post. It is not about survivability, in tanking gear I can survive trashes forever. Just when I equip my 2handed axe I have 20% crit, in tanking gear. (Buffed ofc), and there are full prot tanks there that do only tanking, so I join dps because I can, better efficiency.

I took a lot of time to explain how survivability on trashes is not an issue.



Past molten core 90% of the raid bosses are non tauntable, even if they are tauntable, there are prot warriors and bears to take care of it. If I am not assigned to tanking at the beginning, I get dps class buffs, not tank buffs even.



They are, our dps is really good. We clear whole karazhan under 4 hours now, also we kill Gruul, world bosses and Mag in 3 and half hours. Arms warrior dps? Yes, controversy and unintended things by Blizz is involved... They nerfed us constantly (most nerfed class though the life of wow). They had to nerf flurry in the last patch ffs, after 2 years into the game!!! Yet we still can come with our MS spec, 2 hander, plates, and pop 4th - 5th on the dmg meter, outdamaging mages and locks. I am not the only one.

Well, 47% crit in raid, 2.4k AP, with a 513 max dmg axe... sounds insane right? No, it is not, very doable, if you are farming karazhan, gruul, mag, and world bosses, and a good raid leader that puts a feral in your group.

Answer is the right gear, right spec, right and agressive gameplay. Check Nihilum warriors: half of them are 33/28/0 specced!!!

There is a topic on warrior forums on arms warrior pve dps. This is being discussed ike mad all over on the different forum sites. (i.e. eiltist jerks)

Wake up!!!!

Apparently you missed this portion of my post:

My point is you aren't giving advice based on what people in general can accomplish... you are giving advice from the perspective of someone justifying taking their arms (traditionally a non raiding spec) spec into a raid. This is reminiscent of the whole DPS pally argument. Can it be done? Yeah with the right gear and the right player... Is it feasible for most? No not really.

How many guilds are nihilum.. We have a retired DPS shaman and Druid who sometimes specs Oomkin who can top dmg meters (or close to it). Fact is though most people cannot manage their skills and most importantly their aggro well enough to do that... so recommending that to people who are looking for advice on how to learn and succeed in instances you already have on farm is not good advice.

I never said it wasn't possible... I'm very much against cookie cutter specs... but how many arms warriors carry around gear that has +500 def... and access to weapons and DPS gear that can allow them to the DPS you're talking about.

It's like recommending to a hunter (Pre ranged attack power change) to spec survival for raiding when they only have 300 agility. They end up hurting their raid because they haven't reached the point where lightning reflexes out dpses a MM spec. But then you point at Death and Taxes and say ... see ... look at all their survival hunters.

It's not about what CAN be done... it's about what is realistic for most people to do. So stop defending your spec... I never claimed it was a bad spec... but it's not viable for most.

[Regrets]

As a RL, i give feral druid to rogues/dps warriors, shaman+s.priest to spell dmg caster :) Always the best dps output

[Arthengel]

you are giving advice from the perspective of someone justifying taking their arms (traditionally a non raiding spec) spec into a raid. This is reminiscent of the whole DPS pally argument. Can it be done? Yeah with the right gear and the right player... Is it feasible for most? No not really.

Where did you get the idea of me trying to justify my spec? My guild requested it to try give blood frenzy to rogues and keep BS up, as tanks tend to keep CS up. Because all raiding guilds that had good progress had a couple of 33/28 warriors. Then I happened to climb up to good places on the damagemeter. This whole thing ended up around 15% raid dps increase (BF+BS+my dps) by someone who can tank trash if needed without any issues, which is the difference of wiping at 14% or killing a boss.

Also I'll be switching to tanking gear at karathess to tank the hunters pet. But i am dpsing at lurker. (The hunters are tankable in dps gear.) What could possibly be wrong with this? Argument please. Technical ones, not me trying to justify things.

so recommending that to people who are looking for advice on how to learn and succeed in instances you already have on farm is not good advice.

I am not only going to places where we farm for fun, I am contributing at the instances where we are still learning.

I never said it wasn't possible... I'm very much against cookie cutter specs... but how many arms warriors carry around gear that has +500 def... and access to weapons and DPS gear that can allow them to the DPS you're talking about.

Read the title please. These guys killed mag, gruul, karazhan cleared, and now they are going into SSC. The only SSC loot I have on me is the thrown weapon from trash atm. Rest is coming from world bosses, kara, gruul and mag. (bracers still BG ones) So this gear is pretty easily obtainable to them as well.

It's like recommending to a hunter (Pre ranged attack power change) to spec survival for raiding when they only have 300 agility. They end up hurting their raid because they haven't reached the point where lightning reflexes out dpses a MM spec. But then you point at Death and Taxes and say ... see ... look at all their survival hunters.

See above.

It's not about what CAN be done... it's about what is realistic for most people to do. So stop defending your spec... I never claimed it was a bad spec... but it's not viable for most.

See above.


On the windfury thing, I checked with my bro (he's rogue). He said it is a debate between rogues, as you can not have poison on your weapon when you have windfury. Some prefer windfury (mainly sword rogues?), some poison (mutilate?).

But for a rogue 5%crit+poison should be better than windfury alone, no?

[Regrets]

Yup, kara alone + some decent blues has enough def to keep u immune crit. Unless you dont even know how to play around with ur gears to make u so. I spec pvp for arenas on non-raid days, but sometimes i will just wear my tanking gear for fun & I still got 490+ def. without the +20 def talent

And yeah windfury is not really that beneficial to rogues becuz they lose their poison, they will rather have GOA + Feral if u ask me. But its a waste to put shaman in melee team becuz casters will gain better from wrath of air, + the fact that the totem give the shaman higher healing too, so yeah, unless your raid have 5 shamans, else its a nono for melees instead of casters.