Gear Choice for Raiding Clothies

[Astross]

Due to the recent closure of the "Clothies forced into Tailoring" thread...I am renewing the discussion here with more of a raiding focus.

Please review the following points to decide if this thread is right for you.

a) Please have a good understanding of Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, and Serpentshrine Cavern and the gear obtained from there.
b) Please have a good understanding of gear crafted from the Tailoring profession. (Spellfire, Shadoweave, Mooncloth, Spellstrike)
c) Please have a good understanding of overall raid/guild progression and the time/effort it takes to move people from Karazhan through Gruuls/Mags and into SSC and beyond.
d) Please have a good understanding of the priest, mage, and/or warlock classes.

For those clothies that are progressing through Kara/Gruul/Mag and into SSC...what gear choices do you currently prefer?

How many of you clothie raiders have dropped a current profession and recently switched to the tailoring profession soley to get the spellfire/spellstrike/shadoweave/mooncloth gear?

Have you noticed a trend that most clothies are using Tailored gear instead of the gear obtained in these instances?

Do you like the +damage/healing the tailored sets provide?
Or do you prefer the stam/intel/spirit stats that tier4 gear provides?
Do you think it is worth leveling tailoring to get that extra spell damage?

Do you prefer to use your tier4 on the long journey to obtain tier5? Or did you choose to use Tailored gear?

Please share your personal experiences regarding tier4 gear, tailored gear, and the progression to tier5 gear.

From my experience and in my opinion, tier4 has become almost totally worthless for clothies. The tailored sets severely overclass the tier4 sets in terms of +damage/healing and set bonuses. I see a trend with most clothies using tailored gear and putting their tier4 in the bank or only used to fill a gear slot that tailored gear does not occupy.

[Lydda]

For those clothies that are progressing through Kara/Gruul/Mag and into SSC...what gear choices do you currently prefer? Tailored Gear

How many of you clothie raiders have dropped a current profession and recently switched to the tailoring profession soley to get the spellfire/spellstrike/shadoweave/mooncloth gear?All of them. Including our holy priest who, with the recent changes to the mooncloth set has decided to re-level tailoring to 375 (after he dropped it for herbalism) and get his gear.

Have you noticed a trend that most clothies are using Tailored gear instead of the gear obtained in these instances?Yes. There are a few items that are still wanted, but as a general rule, all our clothies are wearing full spellstrike with either shadoweave or spellfire.

Do you like the +damage/healing the tailored sets provide?
Or do you prefer the stam/intel/spirit stats that tier4 gear provides?
Do you think it is worth leveling tailoring to get that extra spell damage?If your caster DPS is good, they shouldn't need the stamina as they never get hit with anything that is more than 5 or 6K AoE damage and they should have about 8K hp (or more) raid buffed. They still have decent mana, the one big exception being shadow priests who are really relying on pots and the shadow fiend to get them through longer battles. Locks and mages still have lots of mana available to them.

Do you prefer to use your tier4 on the long journey to obtain tier5? Or did you choose to use Tailored gear? Tailored all the way.

For all DPS casters, +damage is king, with a little bit of +hit thrown in. Shadow priests should have +8 or 10% hit through talents and I believe that either mages or locks can get some +hit through talents as well. Have about 80 hit for priests and 100 or so for others to ensure no excessive resists.

On my shadowpriest I have +1046 (I believe) shadow damage, about 8K health and mana buffed. As long as I don't pull threat, I don't die :P My VE keeps all the locks with available mana at any time.

[rgirty]

This will be my only post in this thread. With this one line you asked for the opinion of a very very small sliver of wow players. INTO ssc is the key phrasing. Very Very few people are INTO ssc. If you chose, through kara on to Gruul you would have much more feedback.

Thats it for me, i'm "not right" for this thread and apparently that means my opinion isn't valued and does not matter. If nothing else for the simple fact that I was smart enough to pick tailoring way before tbc came out as I believe it went naturally with my class and left things like alchemy to others because it did not benefit me nearly as much as tailoring.

Have fun with this thread, since you are asking for such a small number of peoples opinion I expect it to get pushed so far back from inactivity that you never gain much information from it at all.

For those clothies that are progressing through Kara/Gruul/Mag and into SSC...what gear choices do you currently prefer?

[Twoflower]

T4 it is a matter of taste. T5 is better than the tailored sets.

all in all, i'd say it is a little more effort to get T4 together than to farm the mats for the crafted sets, but not THAT much more effort, specialy after they nerfed all the instances to hell and back whit the latest patch.

I personaly wear the spellstrike set, but T4 instead of spellfire. Nice mix of stats and damage stats imo.

I will definitly go for T5 though and not tailor the spellfire set.

[jocool]

Tailored epix.

[Lydda]

Hehe. Due to T4 (and T5) being Warrior, Druid, Priest, me as shadow priest will see this gear after the tanks and healers are geared. So I will stick to my tailored gear for a while. I think once we get T5 we will start to see a change up in who wants the gear, but until then, the tailored gear is easier to obtain than the luck you need for the right T4 tokens to drop and hope that nobody else outrolls you, has more DKP or whatever rules you use for loot allocation.

[Astross]

Do you guys think Blizzard intened for this to happen?

Intended for clothies to pass on their tier4 and/or put it in the bank to collect dust?

Intended for most raiding clothies to practically have no choice but to become a Tailor?

Or is it just a mess up in itemization...that has gone on too long to fix now.

[Naedea]

Do you guys think Blizzard intened for this to happen?

Intended for clothies to pass on their tier4 and/or put it in the bank to collect dust?

Intended for most raiding clothies to practically have no choice but to become a Tailor?

Or is it just a mess up in itemization...that has gone on too long to fix now.

How many times are you going to say the same thing?

[Astross]

Please do not come in here to flame...we are trying to have a healthy discussion.

[ocellaris]

Please do not come in here to flame...we are trying to have a healthy discussion.

Seriously you already beat this topic to death in the other thread that is 31 pages long. This is just the same thing AGAIN. This is not a "healthy discussion" at all. I have no idea what you are trying to get out of people. For anyone who missed it, go to...

http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=397111

Different people like different gear, conversation over.

[Shellar]

Do you guys think Blizzard intened for this to happen?

Intended for clothies to pass on their tier4 and/or put it in the bank to collect dust?

Intended for most raiding clothies to practically have no choice but to become a Tailor?

Or is it just a mess up in itemization...that has gone on too long to fix now.
Yes, yes, yes, and no. Working as intended.

[Astross]

Unfortunatly that thread got out of hand and off topic.

I made this thread to specifically address the raiders and to share their experiences with the situation at hand.

Hopefully moving the discussion to the raid section will get more input from a raiders point of view...which I intended all along.

[snowieken]

I am very weary of this one... I understand the desire to continue the discussion, so for now I'll leave it open. But my eyes are on it like a hawk.

It might be nice if the thread I closed earlier today is not mentioned again here.

[liquidicem]

I went for the tailored sets as well.

Anyone else notice that there really is no PVE shoulder upgrades from blues for a fire mage until tier 4? The only DPS shoulder from Kara is the Mantle of the Mind Flayer which is pretty weak IMO.

[Stigg]

Yes, yes, yes, and no. Working as intended.

QFT. I'll bow out now.

[Astross]

I went for the tailored sets as well.

Anyone else notice that there really is no PVE shoulder upgrades from blues for a fire mage until tier 4? The only DPS shoulder from Kara is the Mantle of the Mind Flayer which is pretty weak IMO.


Ya not many shoulder drops available...and the same goes for bracers.

Wish there were some heroic drops or something out there, but not much to work off of that is for sure.

[paiza]

I'm a Warlock I wear the following:

T4 gloves
T4 robe (I decided not to make my FSW robe because I like this one better, but I might make it just to have it)
T4 Legs ( also have the Fire-Trou pants from Opera Event, which are actually better with the noble topaz gems)
FSW shoulders ( I passed on T4, but will get them once other ppl who need get it first)
T4 ( I don't have this but I have 3 other helms, Wicked Hat, Uni-Mind Helm from netherspite, I've lost on the rolls otherwise I would have it)

FSW boots ( I have like 2 other boots from Kara but they just don't compare, they have crit but they don't have the Shadow damage)

So basically, I mix and match my epics. I will keep wearing at least 2 pieces of T4 to get the set proc but I'm not really interesed in the 4 piece bonus.... extra 3 seconds on Cor and Immo is not a big deal.

We are barely staring SSC so depending on what I get, I will replace my gear.

I could break 1100 spell damage with 16% crit but I also like to have crit. So I equip gear that gives me about 970 with 18% crit.

[Twoflower]

I went for the tailored sets as well.

Anyone else notice that there really is no PVE shoulder upgrades from blues for a fire mage until tier 4? The only DPS shoulder from Kara is the Mantle of the Mind Flayer which is pretty weak IMO.

the mantle of torn heart is almost as good as T4, and is from a quest in shadowmoon vally. So there is no real need for it.

[Valshenna]

Or is it just a mess up in itemization...that has gone on too long to fix now.

lawl--if you want to talk about a screw up in itemization that went on for a long time, just talk to any feral or balance druid that raided pre-BC! What you've got here doesn't even come close to that! :cool:

But to address the topic at hand, is it good to have crafted epics while moving through content and into SSC? Sure! Is it necessary or required? Nope!

There's usually a pretty significant difference between absolute optimization for any given task and being prepared well enough to be certain of success. If your current set-up is good enough to get the job done at a 115% success rate, do you really need to worry about whether or not you're at 120%? 125%?

And yes, I'm just making those numbers up, but I highly suspect that clothies wearing T4 and other non-crafted alternatives will contribute more than enough to their raids to support a successful and enjoyable raiding experience. Would they be higher on the damage meters if they had tailored epics? Perhaps. But are those tailored epic so much better that people wearing non-tailored gear are going to be "worthless" for the purpose of contributing to their raids? I would think not!

Oh, and for the record, I recently dropped herbalism on my 63 warlock to take up Tailoring. Whether or not I ever craft epics only time will tell. I just wanted to be able to make bags for my alts :grin:

[Twoflower]

well, yesterday we had a new priest on nightbane. He had the 3 tailoring epics and also the whitemend set ( hat and pants, dont remember the exact name ). Fact is, he had like zero stamina on all those items. he died EVERY try.

[Qwertius]

I do agree that tailored items are very good. I raided up to Magtheridon, then quit because i got bored and I because I don;t raid in summer months, sun sea and woman >> wow. back to wow in oktober...

i don;t agree that you NEED tailoring to perform. any player worth a bit can be capable to perform perfectly in other gear. ALL other factors, skill, teamwork, talent build are a lot more important than the little difference in gear.

this is just a fact and one the OP should value more. I do agree with his viewpoints though, I think he has a point.. He just needs to step down a bit and think, ok it';s not that bad....

and that's my final word

[mesonm]

This will be my only post in this thread. With this one line you asked for the opinion of a very very small sliver of wow players. INTO ssc is the key phrasing. Very Very few people are INTO ssc. If you chose, through kara on to Gruul you would have much more feedback.

Thats it for me, i'm "not right" for this thread and apparently that means my opinion isn't valued and does not matter. If nothing else for the simple fact that I was smart enough to pick tailoring way before tbc came out as I believe it went naturally with my class and left things like alchemy to others because it did not benefit me nearly as much as tailoring.

Have fun with this thread, since you are asking for such a small number of peoples opinion I expect it to get pushed so far back from inactivity that you never gain much information from it at all.

I agree with most of this, and wonder why the OP is on a public forum but doesn't want the opinions of the public....

The part I disagree with is that it will get pushed into inactivity....The OP is controversial enough to incite people to post, even if they 'aren't qualified'.

Oh well.

[frazil]

In my Opinion, i think the tailored epics are there to suppliment those that either don't raid or want to have decent gear w/o endless runs in Instances.
there is enough variety that there is other gear that would be beneficial.
The re skins alone are getting a bit annoying though, some thing Unique looking would be nice.
Those that do raid and enjoy it will have to benefit the raid best they can. whether that means using crafted epic gear , tier whatever drops or misc loot from SSC, TK and Mag to suppliment themselves to make them a useful cog in the wheel.

[Spennce]

This is completely my own opinion, but i get the feeling the OP has the mind set that somehow his time raiding is more valuable than someone elses time farming mats and crafting, so therefore the gear should be more valuable. Which would open up a whole new flame thread. Prolly best to lock this one now.

[Tanitha]

This is completely my own opinion, but i get the feeling the OP has the mind set that somehow his time raiding is more valuable than someone elses time farming mats and crafting, so therefore the gear should be more valuable.

If you followed the other thread that is essentially what he said.

Raiders invest the time to organize groups, learn the strategies and thus deserve better gear. Even when Tier 5 / Tier 6 is better than Tailored gear. But Tier 4 isn't, so Blizzard was forcing all Clothies to wearing Tailored gear.

I'm not getting involved again, we fairly disproved the OPs claims in that thread so no real point.

[Jlor]

Tailored epics are better than T4, but since 2.1 the difference is a lot smaller.

Casters/Mages do not "gimp" themselves as much when they wear T4. T4 means mages can last 10 minutes full nuke with out using too many potions, dps is lower than tailored epics though. That being said, all mages and all warlocks and all shadow priests in my guild have the tailored epics and we killed Hydros last night.

Such a small difference now people would probably have made different choices on gear.

[Astross]

Just as a little update...

I got the spellstrike set made, gemed, and chanted...and just with this set alone my plus damage has gone up +54. I have noticed a big increase in overall damage and the set bonus procs fairly often making room for even more damage.

I have 2 pieces of spellfire made and just waiting on about 10 more spellcloths in order to make the robe. As soon as some reasonable priced spellcloths hit the AH or enough guildies have their cooldown available....I will be sporting the full tailored set and specin back to fire!


After seeing the amount of +damage increase in the past few days...I started to really take notice of how inferior kara/gruul/mag loot is. Prior to switching to Tailoring, myself and many other raiding mages, were fully decked out in kara gear and a few pieces of tier4....only to be sitting at about 850+ damage. Now after switching to the tailored epics I expect to top 1000+ spell damage.

These tailored epics have made such a huge improvement that I feel there is no other choice but to use them.

[Spennce]

These tailored epics have made such a huge improvement that I feel there is no other choice but to use them.


And? So do you want a pat on the back for making a wise gear decision or do you have some hidden point? Given the choice between 2 sets of gear and wanting to make the right decision based on its usefulness is one thing, not wanting to make the right decision based on how the items are obtained is arrogance. It's good to see you could lower yourself to be a better player.

[Twoflower]

strange, i got kara / gruul / magtheridon gear and i hit 1000 spelldamage. And i probably have more life than you, too :)

[Astross]

And? So do you want a pat on the back for making a wise gear decision or do you have some hidden point? Given the choice between 2 sets of gear and wanting to make the right decision based on its usefulness is one thing, not wanting to make the right decision based on how the items are obtained is arrogance. It's good to see you could lower yourself to be a better player.


Why so much hostility towards me?

Given the choice between two sets of gear...I took the one with the most spell damage...like most dps casters would choose....hence the purpose of this thread.

Why are so many casters choosing tailored epics over raid gear? One might assume that raid gear would be better for raiding...however this is not the case...and most casters are switching to the tailoring professions, and giving up a current profession, in order to get the tailored gear. And circumstances such as this makes me wonder if Blizzard intended for this to happen...and why they would make the superior tailored epics so easy to obtain.

[rgirty]

if Blizzard intended for this to happen...and why they would make the superior tailored epics so easy to obtain.

Been this way since robe of the void/robe of the archmage/truefaith vestments.

No one shunned any of those epic tailored items for ubrs gear, just as you won't likely shun your tbc epic tailored gear for kara loot.

Epic BoE item being greater than 10 man raid loot has been the norm for quite some time with WoW. I'm not sure why some never took advantage of it pre-xpac. I guess because they already had access to tier2, which arguably is still not on par with void/archmage/truefaith.

[Astross]

Been this way since robe of the void/robe of the archmage/truefaith vestments.

No one shunned any of those epic tailored items for ubrs gear, just as you won't likely shun your tbc epic tailored gear for kara loot.

Epic BoE item being greater than 10 man raid loot has been the norm for quite some time with WoW. I'm not sure why some never took advantage of it pre-xpac. I guess because they already had access to tier2, which arguably is still not on par with void/archmage/truefaith.


That is a good point.

But those pre-xpac tailored items were just a single item that was kinda hard to obtain and no one was going to drop professions for...but added a little perk to the tailoring profession...which is good and seems fair and balanced.

Now after-xpac, we got 3 patterns in 3 different classes that can be bought from a vender for 5g. Not to mention these easy to obtain patterns have the highest +damage/healing than any kara/gruul/mag loot and are fairly easy to craft (requires no primal nether). The crafted gear sets plus the other patterns (spellstrike/battlecast) gives people almost no choice but to switch professions and use.

Don't get me wrong, I like the +damage/healing on the tailored epics too, but to have so much that it makes tier4 completely useless seems kind of unreasonable to me. It's not fair to the casters using other professions to have to switch over to obtain this desirable +damage/healing.

[Qwertius]

Why so much hostility towards me?

Given the choice between two sets of gear...I took the one with the most spell damage...like most dps casters would choose....hence the purpose of this thread.



We are a bit hostile because YOU JUST WON't shut up! Dude if you would actually READ some replies and acknowledge them... But no .. you just have to keep saying the same and the same again. You made up your mind 2 weeks ago! and no matter what anybody tells you , your mind is set and won;t change. THAT is fine with me, but why on earth do you keep making posts and even 2 whole threads about it if you won't do anything with our input ANYWAY?

I'll tell it again, please read and let me know you have understood it.

1. Yes Tailoring is good.
2. Yes you have a good point, people might feel forced to switch to crafting to keep up
3. No it's not true that everybody feels that way
4. people can perform perfectly well in kara gruul mag gear in hardcore raiding environment without crafting professions.
5. its'not unfair

Capice?

[Spennce]

It's not fair to the casters using other professions to have to switch over to obtain this desirable +damage/healing

you dont have to. and it's already been said, with the recent upgrades to TBC epics their isnt that big of a difference. and with the healing tailored sets, those arent getting picked because of the +heal, they are superier due to the set bonus. one small nerf to the set bonus on PMC or WM and i'll be going for T4. And with my choices to pick the tailored sets im left to struggle to make up the sta diff with other gear. the grass isnt so green. and im not being hostle at all with you, im just failing to see why your complaining about a nice alternative for people that cant or dont want to raid.

[DraedynLei]

OMG. You guys are still at it?

*gets out the popcorn*

I just wanted to get my post in before this thread reach its inevitable conclusion of becoming closed.

For those trying to get a different reply from Astross than the same ol stuff he's been saying for weeks, it's useless. Just stop responding :)

[Astross]

*gets out the popcorn*

you forgot your..

*3D glasses*
and
*Lawn Chair*

:afro:


This is certainly a topic that everyone seems to deal with one way or the other and affects us all in game. A little healthy discussion never hurt no one...and I think its perfectly appropriate to talk about it here.

[DraedynLei]

This is certainly a topic that everyone seems to deal with one way or the other and affects us all in game. A little healthy discussion never hurt no one...and I think its perfectly appropriate to talk about it here.

Noble sentiment expect you tried to exclude a good majority of players in your original post. GG though.

[Astross]

Noble sentiment expect you tried to exclude a good majority of players in your original post. GG though.


This thread is in the Raid/Instance section for that very reason.

[Spennce]

This thread is in the Raid/Instance section for that very reason.


lol, how does that make your reasoning any better?

[Astross]

Well for one, it's directed towards people who raid and are familar with the situation at hand.

And I'm done responding to negative posts...lets try to stay on topic please.

[dowdjr]

I don't see the tailoring items as any different than the BS crafted weapons. Both take about the same to level (depends on server prices and all) and have similar impact on player performance.

You might as well include some of the plate gear recipes for tanks. (I think some of them are BOP, but can't check from work)

I think the only classes that don't really have this kind of "option" are hunters and druids.

Either way, I can't see the negative anywhere. It's like saying "Blizzard is so unfair, they have made this game that I have to play. Now I have to give up things like sports, girlfriends, and sleep to play WOW."

As most of that doesn't answer the original post, I'll say this: Tier 4 for any class isn't all that much of an upgrade. There are plenty of crafting, Heroic, PVP, rep reward, and even just blue drops that offer similar or better stats. Tailoring offers is one of the easiest solutions of those listed. Gather, buy, or beg for a bunch of mats (including those to skill up) and have pretty great gear immediately upon reaching lvl 70. You'll be that much more equiped to help your guild start Karazhan the moment you set foot in the door.

If you make the choice to take this route (dropping a profession for tailoring), it's your choice. My understanding of that choice is: if a piece of gear drops that is equivalent to the crafted piece, a guildie who hasn't leveled tailoring early will probably get the benefit of your work. He will get the gear because it is a significant upgrade for him and not so big for you. Does that hurt on a personal level? maybe. Will it help the guild overall - most definitely.

Since a good bit of raid progression comes from simply getting better gear for harder encounters, a guild with members focused on gear advancement through crafting will probably progress faster. Other members may choose to "farm" for PVP gear that is a significant upgrade. Time spent in a BG is time not used for farming mats, farming gold, leveling an alt, helping members in instances, etc.

I think the biggest question is whether personal sacrifice is worth it for the guild / raid progression. FYI, my rogue main bought his way to the scryer rep dagger. It was recently replaced with Kara / heroic daggers. I believe that the scryer dagger helped our guild progress to the point that I could get to the better daggers. Now that our guild has cleared Kara (cept for nightbane), my priest will be crafting gear to be on equal footing with the rest of my guild stepping into Gruul's and just beyond.

[Valshenna]

But everyone should know that the only "on-topic" posts that Astross will acknowledge are the ones that agree with him :wink:

The reason so many people are antagonistic towards you is because your position is far more extreme than the reality of the situation requires. A discussion implies that the conversation goes both ways, but with you it's always the same thing over and over. For instance, you say the following:

Don't get me wrong, I like the +damage/healing on the tailored epics too, but to have so much that it makes tier4 completely useless seems kind of unreasonable to me. It's not fair to the casters using other professions to have to switch over to obtain this desirable +damage/healing.

But no matter what anyone else says you refuse to even budge on your position or indicate that there might--there just might be other approaches that are also successful. It's like this whole thread is your attempt to have a pity party and get everyone else to nod their heads in agreement with you, to rise up against the evil conspiracy Blizzard has wrought which minimizes the rewards of entry-level raiding and exalts the crafting professions (oh noes how terwible!!1!!)

The fact is yes--tailored items are good. And if you are a tailor or are willing to switch to tailoring, then yes, there's a good chance that you won't have much use for T4/Kara/Gruul/Mags gear (entry-level raiding). But to say that those drops are "completely useless" or that casters of other professions "have to switch over to obtain this desirable +damage/healing" is simply ludicrous. There are plenty of casters who do just fine without tailoring, they contribute perfectly well to their raids, and just like the tailors, they'll be upgrading their gear once they start moving into SSC and beyond.

Is there really anything to discuss anymore?

[rgirty]

That is a good point.

But those pre-xpac tailored items were just a single item that was kinda hard to obtain and no one was going to drop professions for...but added a little perk to the tailoring profession...which is good and seems fair and balanced.

Now after-xpac, we got 3 patterns in 3 different classes that can be bought from a vender for 5g. Not to mention these easy to obtain patterns have the highest +damage/healing than any kara/gruul/mag loot and are fairly easy to craft (requires no primal nether). The crafted gear sets plus the other patterns (spellstrike/battlecast) gives people almost no choice but to switch professions and use.

Don't get me wrong, I like the +damage/healing on the tailored epics too, but to have so much that it makes tier4 completely useless seems kind of unreasonable to me. It's not fair to the casters using other professions to have to switch over to obtain this desirable +damage/healing.

People not taking up tailoring to obtain void/archmage/truefaith aren't very serious about raiding. That single piece is much better than tier 1 and arguably on par with tier two.

Most serious raiders did this. It takes a while to go from scratch to getting your tier 2 piece.

The real key is, did these people then drop tailoring? The tbc epics require you to keep it to use them. These did not.

We downed the curator last night, with only 1 dps wearing tailored epics. We even had a lock with only 500 spell damage. Tier 4 is better balanced, but teh epic is better for damage no doubt, however I must say that a balance of stats and dmg might be best and tax healers much less on encounters where you will take damage. I think that fights might go more smoothly with a little +dmg tradeoff with stats.

[Astross]

People not taking up tailoring to obtain void/archmage/truefaith aren't very serious about raiding. That single piece is much better than tier 1 and arguably on par with tier two.

Most serious raiders did this. It takes a while to go from scratch to getting your tier 2 piece.

The real key is, did these people then drop tailoring? The tbc epics require you to keep it to use them. These did not.



Ya you're probally right there...but we didn't see a huge mass of people switch to the tailoring profession just to craft that one epic. It was just a nice perk for Tailors.

Post-xpac people are switching to Tailoring because of the great gear you can get relatively easy...Where is the big perk for alchy/engineering/jewelcrafting? Why aren't people moving to those professions in mass waves?

Sure you can say, well they have the alchemists stone, and the engineering helms, etc...but those are just nice little perks to benefit those who took those professions...not an overwhelming amount of great gear that practically forces you to switch over.

The Tailoring gear is so good that it is beyond a little perk, it's almost a necessity...which isn't very fair to the other professions.

[rgirty]

Ya you're probally right there...but we didn't see a huge mass of people switch to the tailoring profession just to craft that one epic. It was just a nice perk for Tailors.

Post-xpac people are switching to Tailoring because of the great gear you can get relatively easy...Where is the big perk for alchy/engineering/jewelcrafting? Why aren't people moving to those professions in mass waves?

Sure you can say, well they have the alchemists stone, and the engineering helms, etc...but those are just nice little perks to benefit those who took those professions...not an overwhelming amount of great gear that practically forces you to switch over.

The Tailoring gear is so good that it is beyond a little perk, it's almost a necessity...which isn't very fair to the other professions.

It wasn't just a simple "perk" to have the truefaith vestments, they are very powerful. Many, MANY people still wear them to 70. You will find very few robes with that amount of +heal, stam and mp5 as well as the reduction to fade cooldown.

The other professions have always been worse than tailoring, since the first day a bop pattern dropped it has been better.

When +dmg to ring and +heal to ring enchants became BOP enchanting skyrocketed into #2 as the second best profession (I say its #1 ).

The reason people are switching now is because they want a leg up. WAY back when people didn't min/max as they do now. Because there were 40 raiders. With the 10/25 man limit and new designs people are trying to OP themselves or use every possibility.

The point you are making has always been in the game. It has now been compounded with enchanting. The professions now break down like this:

Engineering: still is, and always has been the second worst profession.

Leatherworking: Many believe it to be the worst profession in the game.

Blacksmithing: can now make a few good BoE items (HoE) so good that the mats needed for it were nearly doubled last patch. Still cannot for the most part make kara quality items.

Herbalism: If you have this, you like to pick flowers for gold. Its really not good for anything else.

Alchemy: you can BUY any pot that alchemists can make. The epic stone is the only advantage..as a healer I can see it instead of enchanting, but enchanting still holds the upper hand. With the recent nerf, not nearly as good as before. Likely, if you are an alchemist you are xmute or pot or elixir spec and are either using that to make gold, or consumables for the raids.

Jewelcrafting: has some good bop items, but not on par with enchanting/tailoring. Good new profession and will see some nerfs.

Mining: If you have this you like to mine for money. Good for little else.

Tailoring: arguably the best profession for quite some time now. Due to many things including bop armor and the pure gold making ability of this profession.

Enchanting: IMO #1 you can add +24 dmg or +40 healing that you cannot get anywhere else. Really sit and think about that. +24dmg is considerable, I would dare say it is the most overlooked ability in the game. +40 healing isn't quite as powerful as +heal isn't nearly as hard to get as +dmg.

No matter what rings you get form kara/ssc/rep the person with +12 dmg will always outperform the people without it. If I were a dps caster I couldn't pass this up.

Is it fair? No it isn't. But that is how the professions are, and have been for a very long time.

If I were a mage, i'd take up tailoring pick up +9 gems for every socket I had buy every +dmg enchant I could find and pvp for the +12 spell damage gem. I would also pickup enchanting for the +24 damage. If you want the most out of your dps before you finish clearing kara thats what you'll do. Tier 4 and other pieces will become more popular than tailored in SSC and above due to survivability.

More HP and survivability for you even with less dmg means a smoother better raid when you get to bosses that have adds or dish out aoe dmg. We have only two epic tailors in my raid and both of them had to ditch it for +stam gear for the big bad wolf. Many had to switch it for the curator due to dmg from the adds taxing the healers as they were low on life.

To each their own, but I submit this to you.

People who are picking up tailoring/enchanting for their dps feel forced because they want to be the best they can be. Much the way I feel I must find the best healing spec for myself (41 re-spec since tbc launced) they (and you i presume) feel you aren't bringing your best effort if you don't get the best gear. I really can't say as I blame you, I would do the same.

But is it needed?

No.

Are people being forced?

No.

Are people doing it the kind of people who want to be the best and bring the best to the raid?

Yes.

Due to my tailored epics I am way more geared than any healer in the raid, due to this i'm well into revered with kara and have 0 raid gear so far. I have passed on the shard from maiden, tier 4 gloves as well as other drops so that our healers can get better gear.

I could have played ez mode and just picked up those pieces but I didn't, I wanted to bring the most to the raid just as you do, thats why you are making the set.

[Qwertius]

This is certainly a topic that everyone seems to deal with one way or the other and affects us all in game. A little healthy discussion never hurt no one...and I think its perfectly appropriate to talk about it here.


except that its not a discussion as you STILL never answer us.

[Astross]

People who are picking up tailoring/enchanting for their dps feel forced because they want to be the best they can be.

But is it needed?

No.

Are people being forced?

No.

Are people doing it the kind of people who want to be the best and bring the best to the raid?

Yes.





Good points once again rgirty...lets talk about this for a sec.

If people are trying to be the best they can be and bring the best to the raid...they pick up tailoring.

So tailoring is needed if you want to be the best you can be....and we are forced to use it's gear.

If other professsions had similar craftable gear that was comparable...it would allow for some diversity with the professions of clothies...but for now, if we want to be the best we can be, we kinda stuck with tailoring.

And you are right about that too rgirty...to truely be the best you can be, you would have to pick up enchanting also. Can't speak for anyone else, but at least through my personal observations, I have not seen the mass movement to enchanting like that of Tailoring. I guess the +24damage just isn't catching the eye of people like the +damage on the Tailored sets.

[Twoflower]

for god's sake, STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN ! noone wants to hear it anymore.

[Astross]

for god's sake, STOP REPEATING THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN ! noone wants to hear it anymore.

then don't read it...

[swaldman]

So tailoring is needed if you want to be the best you can be....and we are forced to use it's gear.

If other professsions had similar craftable gear that was comparable...it would allow for some diversity with the professions of clothies...but for now, if we want to be the best we can be, we kinda stuck with tailoring.

On that basis, all warriors and hunters are stuck with being blacksmiths (possibly other dps classes too), and I'm sure there are similar things for leather... what's your point?

[Astross]

On that basis, all warriors and hunters are stuck with being blacksmiths (possibly other dps classes too), and I'm sure there are similar things for leather... what's your point?

My point being...no other profession (including blacksmithing) has 5 items of easily crafted overpowered goodness (3 of which are bought from a vender).

[Spennce]

My point being...no other profession (including blacksmithing) has 5 items of easily crafted overpowered goodness (3 of which are bought from a vender).


so.

654321

[rgirty]

Good points once again rgirty...lets talk about this for a sec.

If people are trying to be the best they can be and bring the best to the raid...they pick up tailoring.

So tailoring is needed if you want to be the best you can be....and we are forced to use it's gear.

If other professsions had similar craftable gear that was comparable...it would allow for some diversity with the professions of clothies...but for now, if we want to be the best we can be, we kinda stuck with tailoring.

And you are right about that too rgirty...to truely be the best you can be, you would have to pick up enchanting also. Can't speak for anyone else, but at least through my personal observations, I have not seen the mass movement to enchanting like that of Tailoring. I guess the +24damage just isn't catching the eye of people like the +damage on the Tailored sets.

We haven't seen people move to enchanting because they are lazy and really don't want the best, they only pick tailoring because people can see their gear and feel pressure to get it because other raiders know it will give a leg up.

It depends on how far you want to go with min/maxing. Within your guild/raid you feel the pressure to get tailored epics to make yourself better.

The very top end of guilds now are not only asking that you do this, but on your app they ask if you have a rejuv gem from bwl. Those that do not are passed over. When entering the guild you are forced to use a spec, and a certain set of addons.

Think of that, some guilds are going to such a min/max they want to force:

1. Your professions
2. Your spec
3. A very hard to obtain trinket (a great one, but it basically just says "i've paid my dues" and i share your raider elitism mentality)

People are switching to tailoring, the reason is their guild is pressuring them, left to their own devices the vast majority of people would ask for 4 others to drag them through kara attunement and start raiding in greens then start getting "zomg phat epic lootz". Because, as much as I hate to admit it people are lazy and selfish.

DPS meters are saying that tailored epics are good for now, and raid leaders/members obviously want the best. While not "forcing" anyone to pick up tailoring it means that you will bring the best to the raid, if only a short time. People not picking up enchanting for the extra damage, are just doing what they have to do with tailoring. If they really wanted to help they would pickup both as that is the best +dps and healing combination.

Blizzard isn't forcing anyone, you can do just fine without epic tailoring. But when you start min/maxing...everything goes out the window.

I've even read guild apps that require you use a g5 keyboard to raid.

Instead of learning the bosses raiders and raid leaders are trying to OP themselves and push through it in that manner. That is 40man zerg mentality. Lots of +dmg and +heal will mask a lot of bad play and that is what the raiders/raid leaders are after.

They can't force a player to play well, but they can ask that he/she have a certain amount of +dmg to cover it.

[Stigg]

Is this really occurring again?

[Twoflower]

well, some guild do that,rgity. Some rely on skill. DnT for example, even though i dont realy like them, had theyr Solarian first kill whit new people still wearing T3 equip.

I think guilds that try to force your profession, spec, gear etc are too focused on parts of the game that are actualy not important at all.

[earindur]

this conversation makes me a sad panda.

its been done to death ladies.

[swaldman]

this conversation makes me a sad panda.

its been done to death ladies.

It makes you a panda? *I* wanna be a panda! Mummy, make *me* a panda!

[DraedynLei]

I picked up enchanting just for the ring enchants. That and the fact that I wanted to be able to do all my own enchants and disenchant my own trash. I wasn't forced to, but the thought of having +24 extra damage was worth it to me. It's the same reason I grinded rep with sha'tar for the head enchant. The same reason I bought 50 fel armaments for the aldor shoulder enchant. Or farmed 10 primal manas for the spellthread enchant. Blah blah blah. We do what we want to do. No one forces us to do squat.

[rgirty]

I picked up enchanting just for the ring enchants. That and the fact that I wanted to be able to do all my own enchants and disenchant my own trash. I wasn't forced to, but the thought of having +24 extra damage was worth it to me. It's the same reason I grinded rep with sha'tar for the head enchant. The same reason I bought 50 fel armaments for the aldor shoulder enchant. Or farmed 10 primal manas for the spellthread enchant. Blah blah blah. We do what we want to do. No one forces us to do squat.

Correct! People that do the above make a guild work, people that don't slow you down.

I have a warrior in my guild with that mindset, he won't spec prot for groups and he won't spec fury/arms for raiding.

He has a solo questing spec, but wants raid/instance gear.

I tried to tell him if you spec prot for instances, you'll have more luck with pugs and in guild groups.

His answer: I hate prot spec!

I said, well then spec fury/arms for dps.

His answer: I need more gear from instances first, and I can't tank them with that spec.

I said, well you can't tank or dps with your current spec as well as you would like but you want instance gear...?

His answer: I'll switch spec once I get more gear.

I said, well why don't you spec prot for a bit to tank some instances.

His answer: I hate prot spec!

I think thats the direction of this thread, around in a big circular discussion.

[Astross]

Correct! People that do the above make a guild work, people that don't slow you down.

I have a warrior in my guild with that mindset, he won't spec prot for groups and he won't spec fury/arms for raiding.

He has a solo questing spec, but wants raid/instance gear.

I tried to tell him if you spec prot for instances, you'll have more luck with pugs and in guild groups.

His answer: I hate prot spec!

I said, well then spec fury/arms for dps.

His answer: I need more gear from instances first, and I can't tank them with that spec.

I said, well you can't tank or dps with your current spec as well as you would like but you want instance gear...?

His answer: I'll switch spec once I get more gear.

I said, well why don't you spec prot for a bit to tank some instances.

His answer: I hate prot spec!

I think thats the direction of this thread, around in a big circular discussion.



Yup, everyone has those "piggback leeches" in the guild that just want to hop on for the free ride. They don't spec for PVE, they don't gear for PVE, they only care about themselves and their PVP gear/spec...and they just want their free loot.

In order for seroius raid progression to take place and move out of Karazhan/Gruul/Mags and into SSC...people have to really start focusing on raiding...you can't afford to have the "piggyback leeches" in there trying to get some free loot. There is just no room for undergeared, pvp spec'd, non-skilled people to latch onto big raids anymore. 40man raids are the past...and so is getting by with the minimum.

If you are serious about raiding then you should do whatever it takes to gear up your toon...which in my opinion requires casters to switch to the tailoring profession and get that gear...and then socket that gear with the best gems, the best enchants, etc. With everyone in the guild focusing on maxing their character to the best of their ability...you can expect some seroius progression and dedication to raids.

[rgirty]

Yup, everyone has those "piggback leeches" in the guild that just want to hop on for the free ride. They don't spec for PVE, they don't gear for PVE, they only care about themselves and their PVP gear/spec...and they just want their free loot.

In order for seroius raid progression to take place and move out of Karazhan/Gruul/Mags and into SSC...people have to really start focusing on raiding...you can't afford to have the "piggyback leeches" in there trying to get some free loot. There is just no room for undergeared, pvp spec'd, non-skilled people to latch onto big raids anymore. 40man raids are the past...and so is getting by with the minimum.

If you are serious about raiding then you should do whatever it takes to gear up your toon...which in my opinion requires casters to switch to the tailoring profession and get that gear...and then socket that gear with the best gems, the best enchants, etc. With everyone in the guild focusing on maxing their character to the best of their ability...you can expect some seroius progression and dedication to raids.

Agreed, but only by the very serious and dedicated.

Others will get by with tier 4 just fine.

[Valshenna]

I vote that Astross and rgirty take this "discussion" to private messages, as they are obviously the only ones who really buy the mindset they keep presenting ad nauseum.

Anyone else?

But for the sake of actual argument and discussion (that isn't one-sided), here's my last attempt to present an alternative point of view and try to get you knuckleheads to see a different perspective. I'll be amazed if Astross addresses this, as he has ignored any other posts I and several others have made regarding this topic. Again, he seems more interested in getting people to simply nod their heads in agreement and he disregards anything that argues a contrary position.

It is my opinion that your view of tailoring and its importance for raiding clothies is completely misguided and downright incorrect. You argue that in order to be a good raider you must do whatever it takes to get the "best" gear you can get, and that anything less than that is "piggybacking" or "leaching", and that non-tailored cloth epics are worthless in comparison to the crafted tailoring epics.

In all honesty, you are completely wrong.

Assume for the sake of argument that for each individual player there are three main qualities that will more or less determine that player's contribution to the progress of a raid. They are (in no particular order): gear, talent spec, and player skill. Now further assume that for any given encounter there is a certain threshold of performance that each individual must perform at in order to pull their own weight so that collectively the raid as a whole is successful.

If everyone is up to par (as in performing at 100%), the raid will move through content with little if any difficulty. Trash will be no problem, and as soon as the learning curve is overcome for any new encounter, bosses will be dropped regularly. If a few players are below par, they might be balanced out by players that are above par and the raid will still succeed and progress (unless of course they are so bad that they single-handedly cause the raid to wipe repeatedly, in which case they shouldn't even be raiding). But if everyone is at par, going above par any further won't really make you any more successful. At best, it might make any given raid go 20 or 30 minutes faster. A boss that is dead drops the same loot as a boss that died a little bit faster :wink:

Now here's where you are going completely wrong Astross. You are putting WAY too much emphasis on the relative value of a small set of items (that are only the "best" for a very small portion of raiding content) and are generally ignoring the relative importance or value of all other available items, the other qualities players need to have, and the overall performance level that the raid collectively must have to be successful.

You say that you have to have the "best" possible gear in order to pull your own weight, and that the only way to be geared up enough to do your job in a raid is to get the tailored epics. But here's what I say--if you feel that you have to have the tailored epics to meaningfully contribute to your raids, then I would submit that at least one or more of the following is true in your particular case:

1) You have a gimped raiding talent spec, and you need the "best" possible gear in order to do your job at an adequate level of performance.

2) You are a gimp player who is lacking in skill. You need the "best" gear to overcome your own playskill deficiencies so that you don't personally hold your raid back.

3) You are raiding in a gimp guild where it is necessary for some players to perform well above 100% in order to compensate for the shortcomings of other players in your raids.

There are plenty of players out there who do just fine without tailoring. Would they perform a little bit better if they had tailoring? Perhaps. But would the amount of marginal improvement be so large as to make the difference between success or failure for their raids? Probably not. And are the tailored epics soooo much better (for the amount of time you're doing KZ, Gruul, Mags--you'll definitely upgrade after that) that it is necessary to drop whatever tradeskill you currently have to take up tailoring? Definitely not.

And does not taking tailoring show a per se lack of dedication to raiding or mean they are "leeches" who want to "piggyback" on the efforts of others in order to get free loot? Again, definitely not.

[Astross]

I vote that Astross and rgirty take this "discussion" to private messages, as they are obviously the only ones who really buy the mindset they keep presenting ad nauseum.

Anyone else?

But for the sake of actual argument and discussion (that isn't one-sided), here's my last attempt to present an alternative point of view and try to get you knuckleheads to see a different perspective. I'll be amazed if Astross addresses this, as he has ignored any other posts I and several others have made regarding this topic. Again, he seems more interested in getting people to simply nod their heads in agreement and he disregards anything that argues a contrary position.

It is my opinion that your view of tailoring and its importance for raiding clothies is completely misguided and downright incorrect. You argue that in order to be a good raider you must do whatever it takes to get the "best" gear you can get, and that anything less than that is "piggybacking" or "leaching", and that non-tailored cloth epics are worthless in comparison to the crafted tailoring epics.

In all honesty, you are completely wrong.

Assume for the sake of argument that for each individual player there are three main qualities that will more or less determine that player's contribution to the progress of a raid. They are (in no particular order): gear, talent spec, and player skill. Now further assume that for any given encounter there is a certain threshold of performance that each individual must perform at in order to pull their own weight so that collectively the raid as a whole is successful.

If everyone is up to par (as in performing at 100%), the raid will move through content with little if any difficulty. Trash will be no problem, and as soon as the learning curve is overcome for any new encounter, bosses will be dropped regularly. If a few players are below par, they might be balanced out by players that are above par and the raid will still succeed and progress (unless of course they are so bad that they single-handedly cause the raid to wipe repeatedly, in which case they shouldn't even be raiding). But if everyone is at par, going above par any further won't really make you any more successful. At best, it might make any given raid go 20 or 30 minutes faster. A boss that is dead drops the same loot as a boss that died a little bit faster :wink:

Now here's where you are going completely wrong Astross. You are putting WAY too much emphasis on the relative value of a small set of items (that are only the "best" for a very small portion of raiding content) and are generally ignoring the relative importance or value of all other available items, the other qualities players need to have, and the overall performance level that the raid collectively must have to be successful.

You say that you have to have the "best" possible gear in order to pull your own weight, and that the only way to be geared up enough to do your job in a raid is to get the tailored epics. But here's what I say--if you feel that you have to have the tailored epics to meaningfully contribute to your raids, then I would submit that at least one or more of the following is true in your particular case:

1) You have a gimped raiding talent spec, and you need the "best" possible gear in order to do your job at an adequate level of performance.

2) You are a gimp player who is lacking in skill. You need the "best" gear to overcome your own playskill deficiencies so that you don't personally hold your raid back.

3) You are raiding in a gimp guild where it is necessary for some players to perform well above 100% in order to compensate for the shortcomings of other players in your raids.

There are plenty of players out there who do just fine without tailoring. Would they perform a little bit better if they had tailoring? Perhaps. But would the amount of marginal improvement be so large as to make the difference between success or failure for their raids? Probably not. And are the tailored epics soooo much better (for the amount of time you're doing KZ, Gruul, Mags--you'll definitely upgrade after that) that it is necessary to drop whatever tradeskill you currently have to take up tailoring? Definitely not.

And does not taking tailoring show a per se lack of dedication to raiding or mean they are "leeches" who want to "piggyback" on the efforts of others in order to get free loot? Again, definitely not.



Let me just try to summarize my opinions and point of view.

Tailoring is a way to improve your gear...there is no doubt that tailored epics have the highest +damage/healing you can obtain (pre-tier5).

Your assumption that people start getting upgrades/tier5 right after Gruul's and Mag's is just not realistic...it takes a lot of time and hardwork for a decent raiding guild to progress through Gruuls/Mags...and then even more time and dedication to get far into SSC. Then once you get far into SSC you are still not guaranteed tier5 or equivalent gear...this will even take more time and hardwork to obtain that gear.

Now all this time, hardwork, and progression to get through SSC requires everyone in the guild to be at the top of their performance level. If you want to settle for inferior gear and not try to make yourself to the best ability you are doing nothing but hurting and slowing down raid progression. Sure you can probally get by with other gear but why would you want to settle for anything less? If everyone just settled for the gear that just falls into their laps, the raid would be seriously gimped. For every person that is gimping themselves on gear, gems, sockets, enchants, etc. there is another person that has to pick up the slack.

Having tailored gear does not mean that you have a lack of skill, an ineffecient talent spec, or a gimped guild. It means that you are trying to better yourself to benefit the guild/raid to the best of your ability. It means that you go out of your way to get the best obtainable gear. It means that you don't want to rely on someone else picking up your slack. If everyone in the raid/guild had a mentality to achieve the best gear possible...just think how much it would help with the success of your raiding. On the contrary, think how bad it would hurt the raid if everyone just chose to settle with the gear they have.

The choice is there...you make a decision. Do you want to get the best obtainable gear in order to give the raid a little boost and encourage all your raid/guild mates to the same? Or do you all want to stick with the gear you have now because "it should be good enough" to continue on?

[Stigg]

Astross, notice how you turned this back exactly into the thread it was pre-shutdown?

Why are you pushing this topic so hard? Put it on the Official forums where people cry about everything.

And Valshenna - I eblieve that rgirty isnt pushing tailored epics all that hard....he clearly states that if you dont want to ge the tailored epcis, you can wait for T4 or better.

[rgirty]

Stigg thanks thats exactly what i'm saying :D

also:

1) You have a gimped raiding talent spec, and you need the "best" possible gear in order to do your job at an adequate level of performance.

2) You are a gimp player who is lacking in skill. You need the "best" gear to overcome your own playskill deficiencies so that you don't personally hold your raid back.

3) You are raiding in a gimp guild where it is necessary for some players to perform well above 100% in order to compensate for the shortcomings of other players in your raids.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 1 of these three things hold true for nearly every raid group in existence.

[Astross]

Why come on here only to post negative comments that don't relate to the topic?

No one is forcing you to read this thread...if you don't like it, then don't read it and don't respond.

There are plenty of other threads on this site...if this one isn't to your liking then just ignore it.

[Stigg]

We arent posting negative comments. We are posting relevant points that disagree with your point of view, which is where the err in your judgement lies. If you want tailored epics, get them. If I want Tailored epics, i will get them. If rgirty wants to wait for T4, then he'll do that. I know, for a fact, you can clear Kara and Gruuls without tailored epcis. I know for a fact you can progress further than that with Tier 4. and no tailored epics.

People will do what they want. Blizz implemented something cool and neat. If you want it, work for it and get it. Sounds like, well, just about everything else in the game. /shrug.

And as for other professions, I still miss not being able to make my own pots. So much to the poit that I am about to go back to Alchemy.

Engineers can make some wicked cool crap, JC can too. Enchanters can get an extra 24 dmg, gathering profs can net lots of gold in a short period of time, engineers still are amazing at PVP.

Do what you want to do

There are plenty of other threads on this site...if this one isn't to your liking then just ignore it.
you are evidently not enjoying this thread either, so.....:ponder:

[Astross]

Yup stigg, you're absolutely right.

People do have a choice...

Do you want to get the best obtainable gear in order to give the raid a little boost and encourage all your raid/guild mates to the same in order to increase the chance of success for your raids?

Or do you all want to stick with the gear you have now and wait for better drops because "it should be good enough" to continue on?

[Valshenna]

I understand your perspective fully well, and I completely disagree with it for the reasons I set out above. What's interesting though is that you completely misconstrued many of the arguments I made!

Having tailored gear does not mean that you have a lack of skill, an ineffecient talent spec, or a gimped guild.

That is NOT at all what I implied in my post. To the contrary, my position is that if you feel tailored gear is neccessary to push through KZ, Gruul, Mags, and to move on to SSC until you upgrade, then yes--you are most likely lacking in skill, spec, or your raiding groups sucks. BIG difference between my position and what you just said :wink:

Your assumption that people start picking up tier5 right after Gruul's and Mag's is just not realistic . . .

Wrong again--never said that, never even implied that. Yes it is true that when you start SSC you'll be using whatever gear you were using and/or obtained in KZ, Gruuls, and Mags, and of course it might take some time until you start to upgrade. But assuming you have skilled players with decent specs and decent gear--with or without anything tailored--you'll do just fine in SSC and will reach the point where yes, you will upgrade your old gear with new stuff. Tailoring is not required to be successful in SSC or anywhere else.

Now all this time, hardwork, and progression to get through SSC requires everyone in the guild to be at the top of their performance level.

Strike three--again, you've completely missed the gist of my arguments. If the top of everyones' game means completely maximizing every aspect of a player, to perfectly fine-tune everything in terms of gear, talents, skill, then hell--why not add in macros, mods, hardware, and what you ate for breakfast! If you're gonna go all out, why not go all out!

But what you still fail to understand is that all that stuff is NOT necessarily required for successful endgame raiding. Everything with you is either the absolute best or utterly worthless. You're completely ignoring all the in-between options that yes, may be technically inferior to whatever is optimal--but they're still pretty damn good and more than good enough to get the job done.

It's like you're saying everyone has to be performing at 120% of what is necessary to be successful. And oh noes! If I'm at only 115% percent, then I've got inferior gear, and I'm not as dedicated as you. Tragedy!! To think that anyone would be willing to progress consistently through endgame content at only 15% above the minimum of what is pretty much certain to be successful! (And yes, those are arbitrary numbers that are probably impossible to quantify, but my guess is that the principle holds true, and is certainly consistent with my experience.)

Having tailored gear . . . means that you are trying to better yourself to benefit the guild/raid to the best of your ability. It means that you go out of your way to get the best obtainable gear . . . If everyone in the raid/guild had a mentality to achieve the best gear possible . . . just think how much it would help with the success of your raiding. On the contrary, think how bad it would hurt the raid if everyone just chose to settle with the gear they have.

For the most part I'll agree with that, and there's certainly nothing wrong with trying to be the best you can be, in showing dedication, and working hard to promote the success of your raiding group. In fact, such actions should be respected.

The only modification I would make is with regard to the last part. Again you imply that anything less than the perfectly optimal layout is inherently inadequate. Whether or not "settl[ing] with the gear they have" is bad or not depends on what gear they have. If they're in greens and blues, then yes, it's bad. If they're in T4 and other epic items from KZ, Gruul, Mags, or even heroics, then they'll be just fine for moving into SSC. Tailored items, while they might be marginally better in some respects, and definitely not required.

But I don't agree with:

It means that you don't want to rely on someone else picking up your slack.

On the contrary, if you feel you absolutely must have tailored epics, then most likely it means you are willing to pick up the slack of others. Not having tailored epics doesn't necessarily mean you aren't pulling your own weight :wink:

Finally, regarding rgirty's comment of:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 1 of these three things hold true for nearly every raid group in existence.

I'll agree with you there! And the fact is that despite these weaknesses, there are plenty of raiding groups out there that are doing just fine in endgame content--with or without clothies dropping tradeskills to take up tailoring. And that only supports my argument that complete and total optimization isn't required to be successful in endgame content.

If you've got good players, you'll do more than just fine even if you've got people with PvP specs, non-tailored gear, or any number of other characteristics that may or may not be optimal for PvE raiding. This game isn't designed so that you have to pick and choose what you want to do in it--that if you focus on PvP you will only be qualified to PvP and nothing else, that if you want to PvE, you'll be woefully unable to PvP, and so on. Yes those decisions will probably make a difference, but the amount of difference they make will in most cases hardly be game-busting.

And besides--variety is a good thing :thumbsup:

[Valshenna]

Do you want to get the best obtainable gear in order to give the raid a little boost and encourage all your raid/guild mates to the same in order to increase the chance of success for your raids?

Or do you all want to stick with the gear you have now and wait for better drops because "it should be good enough" to continue on?

And that my friends is what we who understand logical argumentative principles call--a False Dichotomy.

If you're wearing good gear that you've worked hard to obtain by raiding Karazhan, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon's Lair, that you've gotten from Heroics, Reputation, or even PvP but doesn't include tailored epics--then your gear WILL be good enough to move on and be successful in SSC.

[Stigg]

Yup stigg, you're absolutely right.

People do have a choice...

Do you want to get the best obtainable gear in order to give the raid a little boost and encourage all your raid/guild mates to the same in order to increase the chance of success for your raids?

Or do you all want to stick with the gear you have now and wait for better drops because "it should be good enough" to continue on?

Oh my god, seriously dude? Dont make me tear apart your gear again. And its not that it "should be good enough" to continue on. Its that it IS good enough to continue on.

And from your lack of tailoring pre-tbc, you clearly have changed your tune, as unless you went from raiding UBRS to Naxx, you should have had tailroign to 300 for the RotA.

/thread shutdown

[Astross]

@Valshenna and others

I enjoy your input into this discussion and you bring up many valid points; however, there is no need for harsh language such as "wrong again", "strike three", "fail to understand", "tear apart your gear again", etc.

Just because we disagree on somethings doesn't mean we have to decide who is right or wrong...lets try to be more respectful of each others view points and discuss the topic at hand in a polite way.



I agree with you that a some tier4 and kara loot is enough to start pushing into SSC and should get you by just fine. But if the whole raid felt like their gear was good enough to get by and no one tried to get the best obtainable gear you would be severly outclassed by a raid that did choose max their gear to the highest level.

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make is...if you and your guild are serious about raiding then everyone should be working hard to better themselves by any means possible, not just settle for what you already have because it will it will get the job done. I know every guild is going to have some people that choose not to go this route, but why not take the step foward and get that good gear and start encouraging everyone around you to do the same...it's definetly not going to hurt and will only help in making you and your guild the best it can be.

[DraedynLei]

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make is...if you and your guild are serious about raiding then everyone should be working hard to better themselves by any means possible, not just settle for what you already have because it will it will get the job done. I know every guild is going to have some people that choose not to go this route, but why not take the step foward and get that good gear and start encouraging everyone around you to do the same...it's definetly not going to hurt and will only help in making you and your guild the best it can be.

Because we don't want all our clothies to be little clones of each other? We all play the game to have fun and we all enjoy it in our own way. There's no reason to force everyone to be a certain spec, to have certain gear, to play a certain way if you can allow people individual choices and freedoms and still succeed.

I'll agree that tailor epics are extremely powerful, but honestly, they are not necessary. You did fine for a while without them if I recall your original posts. You made it to SSC with your guild before you changed profs right? It's strange to me that you should suddenly think that they are essential now to your success.

The point of your argument that I take most issue with is the nullification of free will. Because you need a certain set up to max your dps, doesn't mean anyone forced you to do it. You made a decision to value dps/damage above all other things. You made a decision to drop one of your professions. You made a... you get the point. These things are individual beliefs. They are not inherent truths that everyone shares. Therefore not all clothies are forced into tailoring because not all clothies believe as you do.

[Valshenna]

Wow--you call that harsh language? Well, if you do, then in the future I'll do my best to not write anything that indicates I have a personality, and instead write as though we were having a quaint little chat in the same room, sitting upright, back straight, feet flat on the floor, tone of voice nice and even and without any inflection, and hands nicely held together in front of me

(uh oh--I think I was just harsh again :wink: )

You've made your point many times over. I've now exhaustively made mine. Neither of us has changed our minds, and I doubt anyone else has either. You've said nothing to refute anything that anyone else has said, we clearly disagree, and therefore there really isn't anything else to discuss.

Have fun!

/quit thread

[Astross]

Because we don't want all our clothies to be little clones of each other? We all play the game to have fun and we all enjoy it in our own way. There's no reason to force everyone to be a certain spec, to have certain gear, to play a certain way if you can allow people individual choices and freedoms and still succeed.

I'll agree that tailor epics are extremely powerful, but honestly, they are not necessary. You did fine for a while without them if I recall your original posts. You made it to SSC with your guild before you changed profs right? It's strange to me that you should suddenly think that they are essential now to your success.

The point of your argument that I take most issue with is the nullification of free will. Because you need a certain set up to max your dps, doesn't mean anyone forced you to do it. You made a decision to value dps/damage above all other things. You made a decision to drop one of your professions. You made a... you get the point. These things are individual beliefs. They are not inherent truths that everyone shares. Therefore not all clothies are forced into tailoring because not all clothies believe as you do.


Yes I have just recently took up the tailoring profession in order to maximize my DPS and I did not have tailored epics through my guilds progression through kara/gruul/mag.

In fact the main reason I took up tailoring is because my guild has started using "Wow Web Stats v1.9.5 by Lossendil". For those not familiar with this, it is basically a break down of the damage/healing meters that imports them to a website and enables everyone to look at certain statistics such as overall damage, sustained dps, specific spell cast sequences, usage of potions/trinkets/flasks/set bonus procs/etc., how long each person lived in relation to the damage they provided (Damage per Second), and many other informing facts.

From this tool, you can clearly see if the overall damage or DPS is related to your lack of skill (not using the proper spell rotations) or due to lack of gear. This addon tool has done wonders to my guild...it makes each person strive to become better, work hard for better gear, and learn proper spell rotations.

It was after using this, that I decided to become a tailor and to not settle for the gear I currently have but rather work hard to obtain the best gear possible. When such exact and specific numbers are posted and allows you see just how much that one little piece of gear makes a difference, it completely changed my mindset and encourages you to do whatever it takes to improve yourself.

[Tanitha]

You should drop Herbalism then for Enchanting and eke out that extra +24 damage.

[Astross]

You should drop Herbalism then for Enchanting and eke out that extra +24 damage.



I have put a lot of thought into that and probably will end up doing it in the future, but for now my constant demand for potions/elixirs/flasks during raids is very high and herbalism supports this high consumable usage.

At least at the moment, supplying my own mats for these consumables is more valuable than having +24 spell damage.

But ya, if you truely wanted to be the best you can possibly be, then you should take up enchanting to get the ring enchants...I just can't afford to do that right now.

[Stigg]

I have put a lot of thought into that and probably will end up doing it in the future, but for now my constant demand for potions/elixirs/flasks during raids is very high and herbalism supports this high consumable usage.

At least at the moment, supplying my own mats for these consumables is more valuable than having +24 spell damage.


Well then you are failing your guild and should opt not to raid at all.

[Oatmealsmurf]

You are vastly overrating tailoring... you come across as just being wowed by the raw +(insert school) dmg. Statements such as making T4 irrelevant are lagughable... the tier 4 pieces are much better balanced for PvE at the end of the day.

[Qwertius]

Why come on here only to post negative comments that don't relate to the topic?

No one is forcing you to read this thread...if you don't like it, then don't read it and don't respond.

There are plenty of other threads on this site...if this one isn't to your liking then just ignore it.

a good suggestion, I decided to just follow your advice and as a bonus put you on /ignore as well.

@Valshenna: I was starting to write a respons indicating that other factors are way more important, but your post is 100 times better then what I could write. There is nothing to add.

[Twoflower]

edit : sry, double post

[Twoflower]

It was after using this, that I decided to become a tailor and to not settle for the gear I currently have but rather work hard to obtain the best gear possible.

then go and get T6.

realy, tailoring gear gets useless once you kill bosses in the eye and serpentshrine caverns... and up to there, it is so easy, it does not matter what you wear.

so, the REAL question is : do you wanna save all your DKP trough karazhan and Gruuls lair, but have to pay for tailoring items, or do you want to save the money and get the Raiding items for free.

[Astross]

Sure some people might prefer the stam/intel stats that tier4 provide, but the truth is if your caster DPS is good, they shouldn't need the stamina as they never get hit with anything that is more than 6K AoE damage and they should have at least 8K hp raid buffed and there is more than enough tricks to not go oom. (shadowpriest/mana pots/mana gems/evocation/lifetap/shadowfiend/etc.)

For all DPS casters, +damage is the number one stat to focus on, with a little bit of +hit/crit thrown in. All the stamina/intellect is nice and all, but only comes on the side with the +damage gear. If you can survive with 8k health/mana, anything more is an overkill and wasted +damage you could have had.

[Stigg]

Sure some people might prefer the stam/intel stats that tier4 provide

You have completely voided your entire argument by writing that line.

[Astross]

then go and get T6.

realy, tailoring gear gets useless once you kill bosses in the eye and serpentshrine caverns... and up to there, it is so easy, it does not matter what you wear.

so, the REAL question is : do you wanna save all your DKP trough karazhan and Gruuls lair, but have to pay for tailoring items, or do you want to save the money and get the Raiding items for free.

I think you may have missed the part where I said...

Your assumption that people start getting upgrades/tier5 right after Gruul's and Mag's is just not realistic...it takes a lot of time and hardwork for a decent raiding guild to progress through Gruuls/Mags...and then even more time and dedication to get far into SSC. Then once you get far into SSC you are still not guaranteed tier5 or equivalent gear...this will even take more time and hardwork to obtain that gear.

So when you say, "just go get some tier6", you should realise that obtaining such gear is very time consuming and takes lots of hardwork. Getting and keeping the best gear you can get your hands on for this progression helps the raid/guild in the toughest of times.

[Twoflower]

oh, sarcasm is wasted on those too stupid to even understand the concept...

and yes, people get T5 after clearing magtheridon, since the next step is SSC and the eye, which both drop T5. And no, a real raiding guild should not take "a lot of time and hard work" for gruul and magtheridon, since these instances are like karazhan, beginning to medium difficulty raids which got nerfed to hell and back. I'd dare to say that a serious guild whit people who listen to the raid leader can get these 2 instances on farm status in one week, if they raid every day.

[rgirty]

We cleared up to the shade in our first raid week, within the month we'll have kara on farm. We were obtaining tier4, with 10 people in the raid we had about 40 greens still equipped. That tells you how difficult kara is. One of our healers had 10 greens on when we zoned in for the first battle.

[Astross]

Yup, no one is stopping you guys from settling with the gear you have now...if you want to not work hard for the best gear and make your raiding a little tougher then go ahead.

I for one am striving to get the best gear I can get while I "wait for better gear to drop"..and believe me "waiting for better gear to drop" doesn't happen over night...it takes a lot of time and raid progression to get SSC and EYE of farm status to obtain that tier5.

Just because you cleared kara/gruul/mag doesn't mean that you are automatically getting tier5 next...you have to learn SSC and put it on farm status before you get enough drops to replace some gear.

[DraedynLei]

We cleared up to the shade in our first raid week, within the month we'll have kara on farm. We were obtaining tier4, with 10 people in the raid we had about 40 greens still equipped. That tells you how difficult kara is. One of our healers had 10 greens on when we zoned in for the first battle.

Which is why I was saying WAAAAY back when that having tailoring pieces above T4 isn't a big deal. Kara is not that hard. Read strats. Follow instructions. Do your job. But anyway, I'm tired of this.

[Twoflower]

Yup, no one is stopping you guys from settling with the gear you have now...if you want to not work hard for the best gear and make your raiding a little tougher then go ahead.

I for one am striving to get the best gear I can get while I "wait for better gear to drop"..and believe me "waiting for better gear to drop" doesn't happen over night...it takes a lot of time and raid progression to get SSC and EYE of farm status to obtain that tier5.

Just because you cleared kara/gruul/mag doesn't mean that you are automatically getting tier5 next...you have to learn SSC and put it on farm status before you get enough drops to replace some gear.

you are STILL only repeating yourself, like a broken record. Fact is, there is no "best" gear setup. I will keep repeating this, aswell :)

[ocellaris]

you are STILL only repeating yourself,

This and the other huge thread basically ammount to about 3 paragraphs worth of information, stretched over hundreds of posts...

[Valshenna]

This and the other huge thread basically ammount to about 3 paragraphs worth of [questionable] information, stretched over hundreds of posts...

fixt :wink:

[Astross]

I already have the spellstrike set made...and only 6 spellcloths away from the full spellfire set...can't wait to spec back to fire and test out this insane damage increase! I will post back here with an update as to just how much damage I have gained through these tailored pieces compared with my previous equiped gear that I would still be wearing had I not chose to level tailoring.



So in a period of a little more than 2 weeks, I have leveled up tailoring from 0 to 375 and crafted both spellstrike and spellfire sets...I'd say the hardest part of the whole thing was finding enough people with spellcloth cooldowns available or reasonable priced spellcloths on the AH. I was suprised at just how easy it really was to get this great gear.:grin:

[Oatmealsmurf]

I'm not talking about the stam/intel... although I can hardly see how your dps will make up for intel. I'm mainly speaking about +hit and crit rating... Again you sound like you're wowed by the big numbers.

And what do you mean you won't get hit if your know how to DPS properly? Have you been passed Horsey in Kara? Clearly you can't have been to Gruul or Mag yet... I don't know what raiding you're doing but it's no longer Molten Core. You need a mage tank for Maul'gar... you need a lock tank for Illhoof... you're gonna get hit by shatter in Gruul... you're gonna get an infernal spawn on top of you sooner or later in Mag, and hit with a shadowbolt volley (also on Kazzak if your guild ever does him)... Also not sure how universal it is but our locks alternate on the cubes for Mag. Can't avoid Nethersprite's aura anymore witih line of site... and dps casters need to channel the blue portal.

Never get hit indeed...

[rgirty]

Stam kits are the way for all casters now. I learned that the hard way on my first shade attempt.

PmC didn't help me much there.

[Tanitha]

Stam kits are the way for all casters now. I learned that the hard way on my first shade attempt.

Yes, and as seems to be vaguely suggested in the mage forum:

and then as soon as u release iceblock, damn rouge will pop the "cloak of chuck norris", sprint, crippling poison, and proceded to kick the crap out of you.

it would seem that there are cases when casters need to think "I might have to survive to actually dish out damage". Possibly? No. Okay then.