A Shift in Progression

[Toolio]

Pre-TBC, Alliance guilds triumphed PVE progression and world firsts. Post-TBC, Horde have 4/5 top PVE guilds, with D&T as the only Alliance rep in the mix.

Why are things so different?

[Astross]

Horde got paladins.

[Twoflower]

kel'thuzad 1st kill was by Nihilum, so was c'thun.

i think your facts are just wrong :)

[Lydda]

Horde got paladins. The only thing missing now is our Fear Ward :wink:

There's always the D&T and Nihilums, but they also had the benefit of fully Naxx geared teams to get a head start. T3 was definitely very good to go into Kara with.

How many horde had fully Naxx geared teams?

[Toolio]

kel'thuzad 1st kill was by Nihilum, so was c'thun.

i think your facts are just wrong :)

Nah, not wrong. I never said that Horde failed to get world 1sts. Just saying that Alliance had the majority. Quite the opposite now. Something happened to alter the dynamic of end-game raiding with respect to factions. And perhaps it is that Horde got access to Paladins? As everyone can see they're arguably one of the more sought-after healers.

[dexterhall]

I don't know if it's overall that different, haven't checked, but on my server the first guild to complete SSC is horde - something like that was very unlikely pre TBC. I think because there are fewer horde than alliance on most servers, the 10 and 25man raids suit them better than 40man.

[amgyn]

Horde got paladins.


QFT :grin:

[Shellar]

Back in the day, they used to laugh at us, tell us that Paladins don't really make that much of a difference, and that we should just L2Play. Well, guess what.

[Twoflower]

guess what, we alliance now have totems, heroism, mana tide etc... it evens out.

[Magikhat]

Id rather have a pally than a shaman.

[moopy]

Id rather have a pally than a shaman.

I'd rather have a good player than a class bigot.

[Malentra]

Its impossible to make accurate generalizations without hard statistics. Regardless, if one faction has more "top guilds" than the other in TBC, what does it really prove?

Not much really. This thread is going nowhere fast. :P

What's a better discussion (and more productive) is do Alliance feel that Shaman help them out a lot? And how do Horde feel about Paladins? I know I love both the Shaman and Paladins on my team. :D

[Twoflower]

i love shaman healers :)

1 shaman in a caster group. + spelldamage totem. heroism. Mana tide. Totem that atrackts enemy atacks. And good healers. Just as good as paladins. Anti fear - poison - wahtever totem. fire resist totem.

sure, i like the paladins aswell :) but i would still say that in the end it is equal.

[Toolio]

Its impossible to make accurate generalizations without hard statistics. Regardless, if one faction has more "top guilds" than the other in TBC, what does it really prove?

Not much really. This thread is going nowhere fast. :P

What's a better discussion (and more productive) is do Alliance feel that Shaman help them out a lot? And how do Horde feel about Paladins? I know I love both the Shaman and Paladins on my team. :D

An "accurate generalization without hard statistics"? Do you write speeches for Bush?

[Frostshokula]

Far from equal IMHO. I have both a shaman and a paladin and here is why the paladin is more viable in raids....

1. Perma buffs, these don't fall off you if you go out of range.

2. Plate, able to take a bigger beating than shaman when it comes to healing, which means you stay alive longer to heal more.

3. HALF the healing aggro that other healers have. I can crit heal for 9k and get less aggro than your 5k heal.

4. Blessing of Protection, this spell alone can prevent a raid wipe simply by saving one person.

5. Most mana efficient heals in the game. Even after the nerf I can sit there spamming 1400-1650 or so flash of lights pretty much all day long. Only difference is, I might have to drink a pot 15 minutes down the road, and even then, by the time I need to drink another pot, my pot cooldown is up. That's if a fight lasts longer than 20-25 mins, which most don't.

6. Divine shield. It doesn't even have to be used as an aggro wipe, which a lot consider it invaluable for. It is great for wiping your aggro if you are spamming those big heals and you get a string of crits, or if you are about to take a LOT of damage (prince melch fight) it will completely mitigate everything.

7. Lay on Hands. We actually got rather unlucky in our last prince encounter (which is on farm status), and it was 2 dps left, myself, and our tank. Prince had under a few % left, and we were trying to burn him down before a wipe. I had to spam some larger heals to keep the tank up, so I run out of mana. The tank gets to about 10%, and I LoH, bringing him up to 80-90% life, AND giving him an extra 25% armor for 2 mins. (yes I specced it). It isn't something you rely on, but it WILL make a huge difference when you have to use it.

Don't get me wrong, shaman are great healers in their own respect, but I don't think any healer in the game is as all round as good as a paladin. They have their pros, and abilities that may be better than something a healadin has, but overall you can't beat a good healadin in raid healing.

[Justinledwards]

Umm well that's fine if you are resto.... and kudos on knowing how to play a healadin well - pst me if you want to transfer :) I have an enhancement shaman, who I have thoroughly researched and spent several thousands of gold gearing up, who is an invaluable asset. We are short a healer (healadin), and I keep saying i'll go resto and all the officers in both Kara groups are 'don't you dare'.

As raid leader for 2nd group, i'd like for healing:
holy priest
resto shaman
healadin

Stick a shadow priest and a mage in there and just put auto-heal on :)

In the DPS group, an enhancement shaman.

Totems in both groups and pally buffs all round!

With a druid and a mage in the group, you've pretty much got it all. A lock with imp is also very nice.

Wrath of air, mana tide in healing group... WF / GoA, SoE etc in DPS group... i think the combination is very powerful.

If we are talking about raids, my response is 'one of each please'. I would prefer that to two pallys or two resto shamans.

[SadaraK]

guess what, we alliance now have totems, heroism, mana tide etc... it evens out.


Its nice you got shamens, but it wasn't as important as horde getting paladins, hence the huge shift in what faction the high end pve guilds are. Even on my server it has greatly evened out (though alliance side are still a few bosses ahead). Pala's ability to aura their party and blessing an entire raid surpasses the shammies buffing ability imo, though you could at least say the shammy is better for a group of healers or melee dps'ers.

Oh well thats all just my view anyway, but either way the math was simple, horde got pallies, horde suddenly had 4/5 top pve guilds.

[Grendo]

6. Divine shield. It doesn't even have to be used as an aggro wipe, which a lot consider it invaluable for. It is great for wiping your aggro...who are these people who consider it invaluable as an aggro wipe, and can I have their names so I can laugh at them too? ;)

[Pongle]

kel'thuzad 1st kill was by Nihilum, so was c'thun.

Both of these fights were hotfixed, Nihilum just got there first after the fix.

[moopy]

Don't get me wrong, shaman are great healers in their own respect, but I don't think any healer in the game is as all round as good as a paladin. They have their pros, and abilities that may be better than something a healadin has, but overall you can't beat a good healadin in raid healing.

I can and do, regularly. I outheal and outlast our much more geared pallies with ease in raids. Still, nice to see you're not trolling the shammy forums with this poop anymore.

Player with a clue > all. Mindless advocate < all.