Moroes frustration

[dilfred]

Ok, this is getting me (and my guild) frustrated now.

First things first, normal raid setup (Horde btw)
2 holy priest (1 with +1500heal&140mp5, the other +1200&90mp5 ish)
2 Protection warriors (about 12k armour+ crit res etc.)
2 mages (1 arcane, 1 fire, 800damage and about 500damage)
1 hunter (about 1800ap)
1 warlock (700 damage)
1 Resto shammie (+900heal&50mp5)
1 rogue (1400ap)
Only listed a couple stats there, can write more if helps.

We can down attunment no problem at all and have done a few times now, though by the end mana is limited for the healers, however we cannot get Moroes down.

We can usually get the first priest down via Hunter kiting and rogue crippling just before Moroes reappears after his first vanish, and usually try to take out a 2nd if it's also a priest, else hunter trap it.

The problem seems that we generally wipe due to the Garrotes. Now I am not sure what we can do about this.

3 things generally happen causing this
The priests run out of mana due to continual renews on the garotted
The dps die
The healers die due to shackle break and killed in 1 or 2hits

Now the reason for the post is to ask what I can do to improve the situation.
The only reasons I can think of being.
The priests need more mana (Mp5 i mean) to heal longer, or we need a better 3rd healer as the shaman is quite low spec'd at the moment.
The dps is lacking, therefore need better gear.
We just suck :( at raiding.

Now I really don't want to consider option 3 there as the reason, but if it is, then I will have to just accept it.

What are other peoples reasons for not getting what should be a relatively simple boss down, and how can I help mine. Is this a healing fight or dps fight I suppose is one thing i'm asking. Sorry i'm being vague, but I cannot understand why we cannot do it.
The best we've done is 10%, which we were really happy with, but cannot repeat it and do better.

PS due to websense i'll only be able to reply in the evenings, :( no more work related wow hee hee

[YamahaGuy]

I consider moroes easy. I expect a one shot.

Even still, there are times where we wipe on moroes, because of stupid mistakes.

Second tank not getting enough agro on moroes
Hunter trapping an add died
A shackler died.

My gear is good enough now that when I am tanking moroes and an add is lose, I can taunt and tank the add too without problems, but of course it wasn't always like that

Heres what we have that win over moroes.

Pallies and dwarf pallies. Dwarfs can stoneform to remove the garote. BoP on other players removes the garote. Pally bubble removes garote on himself (I think) And tanks don't care if they get garote. So who care about garote? ^^

But anyway. Looks like you have to heal through all the garote =(

The garote IS the reason we kill moroes before we kill the last 2 adds. The sooner hes down, the less people die from garote.

But as you said, your main problem is healers cashing out. Are you using consumables? And you should try those fish sticks you can cook for food buff. And look at the mana cost of renew compared to its healing. Then compare it to mana cost / healing of one greater heal. Maybe instead of renews allover the place, you can just throw people heals when they are low.

Also look at how you trap the ads.

Hunter is good at the arms/prot warriors. They dont cast spells. And hunter has higher AC than a priest.

Shackler is good for the retnub add. He hits like a wimp - but he dispells other CC's. So you dont want the hunter kiting him back and forth, because he'll dispell CC while hes doing it. So he gets a shackle.

Preist can bubble. And heal themselves. Ods of dying to the retnub add are low.

I think your DPS should be okay; 2mage / warlock / rogue good... Hunter usually busy trapping and retrapping that add, so its a bit lower than max

Huntsman is a long fight as you said. God, I stand there forever. Basically like an initial kara test - do you have enuff to heal through this horribly long boring encounter.

[Toddler]

I think you have the strategy down just need get the execution.

Couple of things, if you can, get the Shammy's +healing to about 1100 and about 1/2 through the fight or at the end have him mana tide.

Pot early, around 80% mana pot, and remember you don't have to cast all the time. Shaman can Chain heal his ass off.

You should Shackle two mobs (Usually the tank / pally mobs) and in the early stages of the fight they will need to spam shackle every 10 sec until the two cloth wearers are down.

MT and OT need to fight for Agro on Moroes, while all DPS hits the first two cloth (Shadow priest and pally.)

Once the two cloth are down, all dps on Moroes.

Your priest can ease up the spam shackle to once every 15 to 20 seconds or more.

One priest should do nothing but renew for those who are garrotted, the other priest needs to decide what he can cast to keep the main tank up and the shackle. I recommend Flash heal with the use of shield, or Binding heals.

Watch a lot of videos of the fight. Make sure you get your DPS order down, and you will be working on Maiden in no time.

Also, Not sure how your priest play, but I recommend a Focus Macro for keeping the shacles up. It allows them to switch targets once the inital shackles are placed on their targets. Search WoW Wiki for the macro. They also might want to get a bar mod like classbars to keep an eye on the shackle timer.

Each caster will use about 2 to 3 super mana pots each attempt.

[dilfred]

Wow thank you for the quick replies..

Yes we are potting, about when you are saying.
I think also the others are using pots, but am not 100% sure. I'll check next attempt, that also includes the buffs like fish sticks and wizard oil.

I like the idea about warriors fighting for aggro, did not know that.
also i've been shackling the MS warrior in the past so will change that to a trap i think.
Also will advise the shammie about chain healing to allow the priests to regen more.
I had not considered big heal vs renews mainly as my renew is most efficient mana per hp, but will look into that.
Also i think the 1 priest renew 1 heal may work. Kind of a rotation healing tactic.

Yes I have the focus macro, it is a dream and have adapted it for other class CC like my mage sheep :P

Best get my video downloads going then and watch some others at play. It's so frustrating as it's an easy fight when I help in another guild, but struggle with my own.

[DrOsmius]

A little thing that makes it a bit easier...have the OT/MT each initially (or sometime) tag the shackle targets, maybe even breaking a shackle on purpose to do so (or even hunter or rogue)...basically, create a situation such that when a shackle breaks, the ghostie runs for anyone BUT the priest. This makes reshackle much much easier and less dangerous.

But honestly, from the looks of the stats, you have the stuffins (I'm a healer, I started with less than your second priest and we did fine)...you just need to execute.

[rgirty]

My guild had the exact same problem with almost the same group makeup so I'll explain to you how we beat the battle..and it took us a while to figure it out. Once we did, we went all the way to the shade and the following week we took out prince/illhoof and again this week. The following is how we do it.

Ok, this is getting me (and my guild) frustrated now.

First things first, normal raid setup (Horde btw)
2 holy priest (1 with +1500heal&140mp5, the other +1200&90mp5 ish)



Ok two shackles that means you will be shackling the MS warrior should you get one and one other add. 1,200 +heal and 100mp5 should be the base for any priests zoning in.


2 Protection warriors (about 12k armour+ crit res etc.)


Both of these guys on the tank


2 mages (1 arcane, 1 fire, 800damage and about 500damage)


+800dmg is ok. +500 is way too low. I recommend+700 before even zoning in. +dmg is very very easy to get in TBC. You need to focus on getting this mage more dmg or finding another.


1 hunter (about 1800ap)


The hunter has 1 job that is critical. Make sure that your priests shackle their mobs while they are still on the platform. Have your priests stand nearly on top of each other on the vertical rug. Have the hunter put a freeze trap between the shackled mobs and your priests. Preferably at the bottom of the stairs. When shackle breaks, if the priest does not catch it in time he will not be mauled by the add, it will get in the freeze trap and he can reshackle. Keep applying this method, simply place traps between the two.

With that method shackled mobs are not a problem.


1 warlock (700 damage)


+700 is the min spell damage I would take with me on the raid. We have our lock kite 1 of the two adds with CoE. That way you only have 1 dps on an add and his dots are not direct damage, they do their dmg over time so it serves two purposes.


1 Resto shammie (+900heal&50mp5)


Needs 1k+heal and 100mp5 to zone in IMO.


1 rogue (1400ap)
Only listed a couple stats there, can write more if helps.


We have the rogue tank the add that is not being kited by the lock. ALL dps focuses on the rogues target until it is down. Then ALL dps switches to the locks target.

After those two targets are down, all go to moroes.


The reason that garrottes are outrunning healing is because:

1. You have no dwarves that can use stoneform
2. You have no paladins to BoP someone out of it.
3. Your dps is low, so you can't dps down the boss before garrotte overpowers you.

Your healing is slightly less than it should be and your dps for your raid party is lower than it should be IMO.

+1000 heal and 100mp5 for the shaman, +1200 heal and 100mp5 for the priest UNBUFFED should be the minimum. +700dmg for casters should be the base.

If you have less than this it is likely where you are having issues, especially since you describe the problem as garotte outhealing healer mana. This means you can't dps fast enough.

If you are using 2 people to kite an add, that means you have one less person dps'ing the other mob. Only use 1 person to kite "the lock" because his dots will do a lot of dmg AND you will free up an extra person to dps the target the rogue is on.

Follow those methods, with the minimum required stats and you will win.

If you are having trouble with the stats, lean on consumables.

Flask of restoration for healers.
Flask of supreme power for +dmg castrers
Flask for the tanks as well.

Also make sure everyone eats +mana/heal food, +dmg food, +stam/spirit food.

Then I would also recommend: superior mana oil/superior wizard oil for the casters.

With flask+wizard oil+food you can bump caster dps +163dmg. Without paladin mp5 your healers would benefit from the mana oil/food/flasks.

[YamahaGuy]

Of the two initial ads you DPS down (call one Skull and one X) we just have the OT shield slam the X then come over to do secondary agro on moroes.

While he works moroes, the X isnt running all over the room killing people. And they OT usually appreciate the extra rage income. They dont hit very hard, unless warior isnt so smart and has his back to the X (no block or parry)

He doesnt TANK the whole X. He just keeps it BUSY until skull is blown up, and team is ready for X.

[rgirty]

Of the two initial ads you DPS down (call one Skull and one X) we just have the OT shield slam the X then come over to do secondary agro on moroes.

While he works moroes, the X isnt running all over the room killing people. And they OT usually appreciate the extra rage income. They dont hit very hard, unless warior isnt so smart and has his back to the X (no block or parry)

He doesnt TANK the whole X. He just keeps it BUSY until skull is blown up, and team is ready for X.

OT moroes and X is a good idea if your tank is good enough to do that. We use the warlock kite because our warlock is good and the mob he's kiting is often at 60%ish percent by the time the rest of the dps get to it, from that point its fast then to moroes.

Either tactic will work, yours seems very sound if you can get your tank to do it.

[YamahaGuy]

Usually I dont like to say use <class> or <ability> because I realize some groups might not have a pally (or whatever discussion)

Like us. We have almost no active priests. We use a shadow priest. And one time, we had two hunters trapping moroes ads in the back (because no priest lol)

But in honesty its srsly in your best interest to make a pally friend ; the abilities they bring to the table I would hate to raid without. They make a lot of things ez mode having them

Only bad thing is no HoT etc. But we have restos too.

[Imraath]

Gear up the fire mage and the resto shaman, imo. Also make sure your priests and hunter are getting to max range from their cc'd target so that they've got time to re-cc it if it breaks.

[Pongle]

Your shaman needs better gear.

Thats your problem.

[Justinledwards]

Ok, you have a good group to do Moroes.

You have the right amount of CC. I don't like kiting strategies - they waste valuable DPS.

With the moroes adds, i usually get 2 priests / 1 priest & holy paladin

The other 2 adds will need shackling (prot war/ms war/ret pally)

Kill order:
1. shadow priest / holy priest - tanked by rogue
2. holy paladin / holy priest - tanked by rogue (trap this one until 1 is down)
3. Moroes
4. ms war / ret pally
5. prot war

Pre pull:
(a) Shaman to put earth shield on rogue.
(b) put the shaman in the melee group. Have him drop poison cleansing totem to the right of the starting area near where moroes will be tanked. this will mean that a tank cannot be blinded, the other gouged and moroes going wild
(c) have the two priests who are shackling stand together on the right hand side of the back table
1. Rogue pulls (1) to left of starting position
2. tanks pull moroes to the right - almost all the way to the wall.
3. shackles on 4 and 5 at bottom stairs
5. hunter traps (2) near the left of the starting position so the rogue doesnt have far to run
6. DPS 1
7. DPS 2 down
8. Hunter drops his popsicle trap in FRONT of the two priests. This means if a shackle breaks, they will run to priests and into the trap. Priests will have to move ith the hunter after this as hunter cannot retrap in the same spot. Give the hunter a raid mark.
9 ALL DPS ON MOROES, pop heroism / bloodlust early (if you lose a couple during moroes, then its a bit wasted)
10. take the ms war / ret pally after moroes down
11. prot war last

Note - if you are low, break the shackles and run out and down the stairs. this resets. If Moroes is down, the adds will despawn (might as well take them down for the rep if you can tho, and you never know when this will be nerfed)

Your priests MUST use a focus shackle macro. And they MUST refresh the shackles every 6-7 seconds. e.g. shackle, heal, heal, shackle.

resto shammy can pop trinkets and refresh ES and healing stream - this will be equivalent to +1200 heal with his trinkets I would hope. Can also do chain heals on melee group. Not such a liability, however I would suggest better gear.

[Pongle]

You have the right amount of CC. I don't like kiting strategies - they waste valuable DPS.

If you run into DPS issues because someone is kiting on Moroes (CoEx locks ftw, imo), good luck killing The Curator.

Edit: I strongly advise popping Bloodlust on the first add, the less damage your raid takes the better and the adds dying is a noticeable drop in damage taken.

[Aerath]

The worse geared you are or less CC you have, the faster you have to move to Moroes.

I enjoy the Moroes fight as part of it is figuring out what will work with this bunch of people. Have killed him after three adds are dead, have killed him after 1 add is dead.

Nowhere is it written you have to kill him last.

As long as your shacklers are comfortable, you can let those two remain shackled throughout - hunter kites the Prot Warrior. Kill 1 add, kill Moroes.

[moopy]

Shammy sounds horribly undergeared. My shammy had 1200 +heal before even starting Kara.

[Jlor]

Well just to add my opinion and advice.

The mages are both undergeared. The fire mage especially, +500 dmg is lvl 60 damage levels not lvl 70 dmg. He can easly get +700 damage from tailoring or from decent blues. Hell you can get +800 fire damage from Green of Fiery items. The arcane mage is getting +120 damage from his spec, so his gear is also quite low, only at the +580 damage mark. Get both mages to +650 to +700 spell damge before talents before you raid again. They seem to be seriously slacking in the gear department.

Moroes is a dps fight, the faster the adds die (that are not being CC), the faster Moroes dies, the faster Garrot disappears. Yell at your mages to get proper raiding gear and more focused dps on the first add.

As to killing order, Justinledwards advice is very good.

(c) have the two priests who are shackling stand together on the right hand side of the back table
1. Rogue pulls (1) to left of starting position
2. tanks pull moroes to the right - almost all the way to the wall.
3. shackles on 4 and 5 at bottom stairs
5. hunter traps (2) near the left of the starting position so the rogue doesnt have far to run
6. DPS 1
7. DPS 2 down
8. Hunter drops his popsicle trap in FRONT of the two priests. This means if a shackle breaks, they will run to priests and into the trap. Priests will have to move ith the hunter after this as hunter cannot retrap in the same spot. Give the hunter a raid mark.
9 ALL DPS ON MOROES, pop heroism / bloodlust early (if you lose a couple during moroes, then its a bit wasted)

The more focused dps you can do the better, 5 dps on the first add, with the rogue throwing in a stun when possible is the best, the second add tanked or agroed on OT, kill both asap, and then kill moroes. Burn cooldowns early, do not hold back. If dps does there job properly then healers will not run out of mana.

Of course priests have to learn to stand at max range from their shackled adds, and used focused shackle macros to reshackle every 3rd heal. It helps if a hunter can stand near them and put down a trap if needed of course.

[moopy]

Boggle, I only skimmed the bit about the mage spell damage. A lot of healers have more spell damage than that in their dmg set that they use for farming.

Also worth mentioning is that if people have really crummy gear, their HP tends to suffer too. Given the random nature of the garotte in the fight, I wouldn't take anyone into it with really low HP- certainly not below 6k buffed, as it simply puts too much pressure on the healers. A lot of people had that much at lv 60, there's no excuse not to be at that point at level 70. Hell, 6k unbuffed would be preferable, for everyone, even the priests and mages. You'll need it even more on the other fights in Kara.

People simply shouldn't rock up to kara in "of the vendor" gear and expect free purples to rain down into their open mouths. Get 'em to run some instances- with other guildies so they're fast and successful, without loot drama. Ask around the guild tailors too, but put the responsibility on getting mats on the people who need the gear. They shouldn't get a free ride, but plenty of support if they're putting effort in. Oh yeah, and there's some pretty passable dps caster gear available as BG rewards too, if people want a few items with bags of stam to support their other stuff :)

Essentially, Kara is tuned for people who are starting with a set of lv 115 blue gear. You don't need to be ZOMGubarFTW in equipment terms, but you have to be reasonably equipped. Even stuff from non-heroic instances will do- throw in a few crafted/rep/heroic purples and you're laughing. Overcome the basic gear requirement and the rest is about skill and co-ordination.

[Scwop]

Priest should be shackling at all times... A pally or two is a godsend in this fight... Turn Undead keeps at least one add running, but be careful. If one add runs out of the room, Moroes and company will reset.

And yes, pallies can bubble out of garrote.

[Aerath]

And toss a blessing of protection on a healer that got garroted.

[rgirty]

I find that putting bop on non healers more effective, from my perspective it is easier to heal myself and the tank rather than 3 or 4 other classes.

My renew will nearly outpace garrotte!

[dilfred]

Well, am off in tonight to try again assuming everyone whom is signed up comes online so i'll let you know how it went and (hopefully not) what went wrong again.

Am going to give the shammie and mages a right kicking based on what has been said above. Looking at their gear, it is as was phrased above "off the shelf" stuff, with nice blues 110+ avaiable in instances if they run them.

Will also try the bloodlust early tactic, we've previously saved it till about 30-40%, but seems logical to try it earlier to get more people appreciating it.

Thanks again all for your time to reply, and i'll keep you posted.

[Aerath]

I find that putting bop on non healers more effective, from my perspective it is easier to heal myself and the tank rather than 3 or 4 other classes.

My renew will nearly outpace garrotte!

I prefer not having my priest(s) Garroted for the simple fact that I want them to do something other than heal themselves... namely heal the tank(s) and keep the shackles running.

[dilfred]

No joy, did not do run :( gotta love british weather, our OT and also shammie could not make it due to power cuts. The amusing thing is one lives in UK, the other in europe somewhere.

That said did goto heroic SV instead which was fun, but I digress from the topic.

Aerath, I agree, i prefer the priests to heal people other than themselves. Even if it's priest heal other priests. Ideal world the 3rd healer would be looking after the priest as part of general party health.

[Pongle]

And toss a blessing of protection on a healer that got garroted.

If your healers are both capable at their assignments and disciplined this isn't really important. I prefer to BoP it off Hunters, Tanks, or Fire Mages (our only fire mage is *very* glass cannon mind you) because some specs of Warlocks/Rogues get increased healing from talents, healers usually run more or equal hp to dps, an tanks take increased damage with Garotte in the raid.

[SideLabel]

Last time I went I was our pally for the run, and I BoPed our rogue of all things, and we were fine. You do not have to be awesomely geared. I entered with barely +700 healing and yet did fine up to Maiden (my gear improved considerably the next time we went to Curator, adding almost +500 healing). 2 shackles + 1 turn undead leaves plenty of time to burn down the remaining add as well as thunder down on Moroes, even if there is a 10 second negative space between turn undead goes off cooldown. By that time one add should be almost dead and can be picked up.

[Justinledwards]

Yes but if you lose a healer from garrotte, it's likely a wipe at that point if moroes isn't a zerg for you.

@pongle - of course - the curator is a big check. You can do moroes without being able to do the curator. With the group above - well if you get to curator, then good luck! But 100 or so arcane resist and a resto shammy can make the curator a lot easier. Also the group needs to be working well together and focussed for the curator.

I didn't say DPS issues - I said wasting valuable DPS. Kiting is a riskier strategy than trapping, and my strategy above revolves around CC, not kiting - why do it if you don't have to? One involving kiting is a completely different strategy - write it up if you have time.

Oh - and did I say DPS 1 down, DPS 2 down? You should be yelling NUKE THE SHADOW PRIEST NUKE THE HOLY PRIEST regularly :)

[swaldman]

Re who to remove garotte from: I always remove the first ones that land, unless they are on a tank, or somebody who can remove it themselves.

You can argue all you like about whether some classes are needed more than others, but at the end of the day the fewer garottes are running for the least time, the less healing is required. Also if I use BoP at the start of the fight I can probably use it again near the end.

[YamahaGuy]

@pongle - of course - the curator is a big check. You can do moroes without being able to do the curator. With the group above - well if you get to curator, then good luck! But 100 or so arcane resist and a resto shammy can make the curator a lot easier. Also the group needs to be working well together and focussed for the curator.



We recruited a new tank recently.

I asked if he tanked curator yet. His gear is okay. He said "I dont have all my arcane gear yet"

....

We do him every week with 0 arcane gear. I dunno why people hype about it

Ya, can see how it could make things easier... but Iunno....

If you have that violet badge trinket with 45 resist I guess it wouldnt hurt to throw it on.. but im far more concerned about proper group composition / burst damage / strat

[moopy]

Yamaha,

It can be nice for the spiteful bolt tank to have a bit of arcane resist, just so they don't need much looking after. A lock with a load of stamina and a couple of bits of arcane resist gear can handle this no problem. however, as you say, it's no big deal. My little shammy was backup bolt tank on yesterday's curator, in case there was any freak lag-related accident, or the bolt tank DCed. I have 9.9k HP in raid buffs with a little bit of higher stam gear on (I wanna top 10k, waaa), and a mighty 45 or so arcane resistance (woo!). Due to some aggro quirks (people were in a rush, I guess), I took a few spiteful bolts, but they were hardly anything to write home about, and I healed through the damage and continued with my normal tank/raid healing.

If the bolt tank can have decent HP and a three-digit amount of arcane resist, it's one less thing for the healers to fret over- but that's just the violet badge and a couple of bits of resist gear, like I said. They won't be all that gimped :)

Curator's an easy fight anyway- people just need to spread out into assigned positions, and only DPS curator when there are no flares up. The raid needs no arcane resist at all, just a min distance to prevent arcing if people prefer a smooth, easy kill. Result=profit.

Oh, and by the by, shammies should never be too precious about bloodlust/heroism. Cooldowns are for using, and this one comes back every ten minutes. Burn it, hell, use it on trash too, give the raid a thrill, since you know it's going to be ready before the next boss.

[YamahaGuy]

Yeah, we've had a few different classes be designated bolt soaker. But they also get their own healer. Rogue is nice for cloaking out of it periodically. Lock works well too. Once a second warrior, for a chance at the leggings.

But I see guilds like pumping the soul cloth gear and AR gear for the tank or AR protection pots , and its a waste.

Like... huh? With group comp + a little thought....

[Justinledwards]

I tried a new curator strat last week, successfully.

Healers along back, ranged DPS (caster / hunter) along first row of carpet, MT on curator, melee ready to pick up flares.

so 3 healers on back wall, 4 ranged a couple of yards in front of first line of carpet and 2 melee (rogue/cat-form)

Paladin healing MT - this meant the paladin copped most of the hateful bolts. And of course, when you heal a paladin they get mana back...

In the whole fight I saw to hateful bolts go elsewhere, and only about 4 flares made it past the ranged line up to the healers - they loved the new strat :)

And the raid was focussed we had 2-3 seconds between each flare to dot up the curator - I was able to get a LB or ES in a few times.

[moopy]

Yeah, we've had a few different classes be designated bolt soaker. But they also get their own healer. Rogue is nice for cloaking out of it periodically. Lock works well too. Once a second warrior, for a chance at the leggings.

Well, it's not that bad- with the trinket on, and maybe one other item, I can easily soak the bolts, keep myself up, and spare some mana to throw heals at the tank, too. However, I do have pretty high unbuffed HP, int and +heal compared to some (ok, so I spent way too long agonising over upgrades, you may now point and laugh :).


But I see guilds like pumping the soul cloth gear and AR gear for the tank or AR protection pots , and its a waste.

Like... huh? With group comp + a little thought....

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Hell, even composition isn't too critical, as long as you're not drowning in useless melee DPS (which is a pain in most post-TBC raid situations :). Just get people spread out nicely so they all have range on what they need to reach, but far enough apart that they don't arc the flares, and this guy is cake, assuming people target the flares nice and fast. As you say, "a little thought".

[PIBSkootar]

Chain heal can handle the Garrotes for the most part. Interrupt the Shadow Priest mana burns when possible. Don't kill warriors/hard hitters. Towards 45-50% health on the Holy Pally get him chain stunned so your DPS doesn't have to deal with a bubble prolonging the add's life. Shackles should be saved for the hard hitting melee mobs so there is less of a chance of losing your hunter. And if your Lock is garroted let him drain through it, he should be able to handle it on his own; only time he will need heals is when Moroes vanishes.

[moopy]

Chain heal can handle the Garrotes for the most part.

Why on earth would you use a heal that is only mana-efficient with multiple targets on a single person? Well-timed slow heals handle it easily, it doesn't tick too fast. Priests/druids can just HoT the victim, too. Even when it bugs out and the garrotte stays for a while after everything is dead, it's really not a problem for a raid who are no longer paying attention to keep the victim alive.

Shackles should be saved for the hard hitting melee mobs so there is less of a chance of losing your hunter.

The absolute opposite is true. Melee mobs are the safest for retrapping, as they must come in range to attack. This is rule number one for hunter CC- melee mobs are safest for retrapping- otherwise the hunter has to mess with LoS and so forth to get them in the trap which is just silly. If you're really worried, give the hunter the prot warrior, though.

Assign one of the melee mobs for the hunter to control. Even without the beast lord bonus, or any trap talents, they are simplicty itself to control. I have done this fight many times as hunter, and haven't died to my add once- it really is basic stuff. You lay a trap at one end of the room, and distract the target into it during the pull. After that, you run to the other end of the room, and lay a trap as soon as it's cooled. Once the mob thaws, and comes for you, pop a concussive shot to slow it (thus letting the next trap cool even more, for Easy Mode), and maybe an arcane/distracting shot to be sure that the mob isn't attracted to healers. Rinse and repeat. You can keep a warrior mob on ice for as long as you need, completely safely.

Mind you, if you assign a ranged mob to your hunter, no wonder you "lose" him/her occasionally- seems like the height of folly, and the raid leader really not having a clue how to use the tools at their disposal.

[Justinledwards]

^^ what moopy said (although I am not yet sure about the unarmed/disarmed thing)

- The holy pally is a pain - if you are not continually interrupting, she will heal, dispel shackles, bubble etc etc
- the hunter must be given a melee mob - the prot warr is a good one. Anything that is going to stand around and cast is less controllable by a hunter - esp with hybrid builds.

[Aerath]

Have to say I love this fight.

We had 4 healers and 4 DPS yesterday (don't ask) and it still was fun taking down Moroes. No hunters either.

Dual tanked the Prot Warrior on top of Moroes (Warrior MTed Moroes), we killed Shadow Priest and went off to take down Moroes.

I think people are confused about a few things
1) It doesn't matter what line up you get
2) It doesn't matter what raid group you bring (barring the common exceptions such as... Bring A Tank)

What matters is how you deal with the line-up with the raid group you brought. Mix n match tactics that you copied from somewhere won't help you. If your hunter is atrocious at kiting/trapping or simply gets given the wrong target... it won't work. If you let the Priest with a 2second attention span shackle the MS warrior or the Holy Paladin... it won't work. If you don't have the DPS or the Healing Power and try to clear 3 adds first... it won't work.

[moopy]

If you let the Priest with a 2second attention span shackle the MS warrior or the Holy Paladin... it won't work. If you don't have the DPS or the Healing Power and try to clear 3 adds first... it won't work.

That's the great thing about the fight- if you have tonnes of CC, you can actually kill Moroes much earlier on (less fuss over the Garotte), then mop up the adds, too. It's entertaining to mix it up, sometimes.

[PIBSkootar]

Why on earth would you use a heal that is only mana-efficient with multiple targets on a single person? Well-timed slow heals handle it easily, it doesn't tick too fast. Priests/druids can just HoT the victim, too. Even when it bugs out and the garrotte stays for a while after everything is dead, it's really not a problem for a raid who are no longer paying attention to keep the victim alive.



The absolute opposite is true. Melee mobs are the safest for retrapping, as they must come in range to attack. This is rule number one for hunter CC- melee mobs are safest for retrapping- otherwise the hunter has to mess with LoS and so forth to get them in the trap which is just silly. If you're really worried, give the hunter the prot warrior, though.

Assign one of the melee mobs for the hunter to control. Even without the beast lord bonus, or any trap talents, they are simplicty itself to control. I have done this fight many times as hunter, and haven't died to my add once- it really is basic stuff. You lay a trap at one end of the room, and distract the target into it during the pull. After that, you run to the other end of the room, and lay a trap as soon as it's cooled. Once the mob thaws, and comes for you, pop a concussive shot to slow it (thus letting the next trap cool even more, for Easy Mode), and maybe an arcane/distracting shot to be sure that the mob isn't attracted to healers. Rinse and repeat. You can keep a warrior mob on ice for as long as you need, completely safely.

Mind you, if you assign a ranged mob to your hunter, no wonder you "lose" him/her occasionally- seems like the height of folly, and the raid leader really not having a clue how to use the tools at their disposal.

1) Who said anything about using the Chain Heal for only 1 garroted person?
2) Eh, to each his own. Less running around for the hunter = more time to DPS.

[rgirty]

We shackle the mobs with the highest hp mobs that can't cleanse themselves. We typically have 2 shackles nowdays (finally got a sp) then we just pally fear one add while we focus fire on the other. We are able to down the first mob typically before the fear wears off, down that mob then off to moroes.

The two adds we down have around 65-68k hp which isn't that much.

We struggled with this fight for a long while, until finally getting enough dps to do it correctly. Now we do it in 3 minutes, actually did maiden in 2 minutes last night.

Since people are talking about the curator, I'll admit for my raid groups he's easier than attumen. We've only ever wiped on him twice in our battles with him. We don't worry about people being close together, we don't worry about bolt soakers we just heal through whatever happens get the adds down as fast as possible and dps the boss. 2 maybe 3 evo's and he's done.

[YamahaGuy]

If your hunter is atrocious at kiting/trapping or simply gets given the wrong target... it won't work. If you let the Priest with a 2second attention span shackle the MS warrior or the Holy Paladin... it won't work.

Tuesday we took 3 new people who never did it before, so what I did was shield slam the MS warrior then pick up moroes

So whenever he was slow on the re-shackle (being new and all, without having the macro) the MS warrior beat on me instead. I kinda figgured he would be slow on it, having never done it, and didnt want an MS warrior running loose.

Of course, with only 1 blue, I can afford to do stuff like that

So, off tank (bear) did the "second burn down" add and secondary agro on moroes.

First try without a hitch. Went well.

We had 4 healers and 4 DPS yesterday (don't ask) and it still was fun taking down Moroes. No hunters either. LOL we get those days.... someone needed that fight... or hasnt gone in a while.. or whatever

[moopy]

I think we're having one of those weeks, too- Maiden took *ages* for some reason. We had some less experienced people there, and two of them managed somehow to die in the first few seconds, and the DPS seemed suspiciously low, even for a group lacking two dps. I actually got to use some short cooldowns more than once- ludicrous, it's normally over in 1-2 minutes.

It will be interesting to see how the mixed bag of jaded and inexperienced cope with not moving in flame wreaths or beam tanking. Hopefully, they will pick both up right away :)

[rgirty]

I haven't tried beam tanking with my group yet but my group is the one that takes on new people and attempts to gear them up through curator so that we can spread around some t4.

The shade is often too much for this group, they aren't geared for it and its a tough fight for some people to coordinate.

Last week, we tried him a few times deemed it not worth the effort and got our free loot from chess. Then focused the rest of the raid week on gearing up through heroics and rep grinds.

I think we'll have a better shot at the shade with my group this week, our group 1 was on the prince last night.

[Aerath]

Raid Warnings ftw.

I always spam a /rw FLAME WREATH - DON'T MOVE macro

Seeing that appear in your screen a couple times on top of a boss mod and some flames seems to have driven the point home.

[YamahaGuy]

It will be interesting to see how the mixed bag of jaded and inexperienced cope with not moving in flame wreaths or beam tanking. Hopefully, they will pick both up right away :)

Well, we took 3 new people to bosses 1-5 and one-shotted each boss. None had been in kara. Been keyed for a while, with PVP gear, faction gear, crafted items etc

Im so happy.

For shade last night, it took 3 attempts to down him.

1 new healadin ~850 bonus heal (far cry from our healdins with 1700 or so)

1 shadow preist respeced holy ~1100 bonus heal (think thats twice in her career shes respeced)

1 pimped out resto dr00d.

So yeah, lack of healing expertise / strength, but our DPS made up for it. Staying 10-20% ahead of his mana most of the fight. We have decent communication skills, If my pummels ready I'll call out "next fire." like other people calling out "next frost" and so forth.

Now, get this

In attempt 1, flame wreath occurs, as normal. Im standing next to shade, working mortal strike/heroic strike, talking on vent "Flame wreath dont move dont move"

And I blow up the raid. I could swear I didnt =( but I highly doubt it just "glitched" but seriously, I can say that till im blue in the face and it doesnt change the fact I blew up the raid =/ Raid leader blew the raid GG GG GG and I'll never hear the end of it. Combat logs dont lie, damn youuuuuuuuuuuu

Attempt 2, two healers went down; one from missles, one from elemental agro. Sigh.

Third times a charm. Got a good fraps of me executing shade like crazy while he powered it by nuking me =)

[moopy]

YG,

Delighted to say that the last time I triggered flame wreath, sixty percent of the raid was already dead, so I was able to pretend that it was deliberate, and a pragmatic decision :) Really, it's so elementary, no-one should ever do it, but hey- it's probably good to be taken down a peg.. ahem.

We haven't been doing so badly with the new people- but there's no rhyme or reason to it- wiping on the Curator (can you believe that?) because the DPS kept pewpewing the Metal Maniac while flares were up (fireballs and arrows whistling past my head were a dead giveaway), yet one-shotting Nightbane, even with three DPS dead by 75%. There's never any reason to it- the previous week, we fielded a stronger lineup because we wanted to be sure to kill Netherspite (who didn't have the good manners to drop my mail healing chest, QQ), and one of our regular RLs kept dying in silly ways, and wiped the raid on Nightbane, by running out of range- guess he wasn't top of his game that day.

People are just so darn unpredictable :)

[Zalath]

Raid Warnings ftw.

I always spam a /rw FLAME WREATH - DON'T MOVE macro

Seeing that appear in your screen a couple times on top of a boss mod and some flames seems to have driven the point home.

Get vent or teamspeak.

Raid warnings ftl.

[YamahaGuy]

@moop

Been having luck with bane, 3 weeks one shotted. His drops are a different story. Ret pally shield twice. The leather healing tunic while the resto druid had work that day (cry) breaks my heart. Course you get asked "what dropped?" and you kinda wanna lie, you know?

The right things always dropping at the wrong time. We got two panzar plate chests out of it; the warrior I passed it to has went AWOL. Sigh. I really want banes shield but.... Im probably gonna pass it to a warrior who needs it more. The sha'tar shield has been doing me just fine at gruuls and whatnot. And gruul has a nice shield. Some day =/

For the first time, we had our bear tank prince. So it took 3 tries or so; bear kept dying. Had to bring in a fourth healer. But its an experiment I wanted to see and make happen. I've heard a lot of hype about bears & prince/gruul.

We fail at netherspite =( were trying. We got em down before. But someone always screws up. Accidently breaks a beam. Someone dies. Agro management when he un-banishes. Since hes not "farm status" we take roughly the same group of people (blue beam tankers, etc). Tell me why we can down him in 2 tries one week, then 6 wipes the next? Know not these things.

Its hard for the tanks to communicate on vent when beams are appearing, while the warlocks are trying to communicate on blue beam, etc. The window is only a few seconds and the cross-talk is way crowded.

Sorry, I realize getting way off-topic.

[moopy]

Of course, people who one week can nuke $boss down in record time with no deaths, and keep wiping the next- there's no logic to it. I guess key people can be tired, distracted, drunk, high, lagged etc. You just never can tell.

[Naedea]

One-shotted Attumen through Curator on Tuesday night, wiped all night on Shade Thursday night. Something always seemed to go wrong with shade. Whether it was someone triggering a wreath ("I swear I didn't move") or getting caught in blizzard when trying to fear elementals ("I got chain nuked with no heals" No, I saw you running clockwise in the blizzard.) or not stopping dps, and getting poly/pyro on top of elementals.

blech

[moopy]

Yep, that's the one.. "I SWEAR I DIDN'T MOVE!".. When the person in question crossed the entire room, so frustrating :)

We tend to have one person watch the status of mana/hp on the shade and /rw "stop DPS", as well as warning to stop DPS when there's a flame wreath up near elemental time, just in case. Shade is a killer for groups because it crushes you not through massive damage, difficult tanking, high HP or anything else- just through pure sensory overload. Even people who have killed him a few times can go quietly bonkers and lose the plot completely, a few minutes into the fight. There's just a lot going on, and some folks aren't good multitaskers.

[YamahaGuy]

Our DPS and interupts are clean enough we don't have to stop DPS and wait anymore.

This time we had like 2 arms warriors, a rogue and a feral in the middle. I really think melees own that fight; no issues about blizzard, shades silence, and so forth. Just run out of the blast, dont move during flam wreath, and were fine.

Their DPS does not stop. Whereas casters have to constantly move from blizzard etc, stop-cast-move, stop-cast-move. That and they die quicker it seem

Elementals pop, just intercept, DPS em down quick, continue on shade. It take discipline, sometime elemental + flame wreath, really have to fight the urge to charge the elemental. Shade can trick you sometimes.

Dont much bother with banish cuz a caster is able to nuke down an elemental on their own.

Everyone just picks whatever elemental and goes for it.

If were not 10-20% ahead as usual, we might get morphed.

Pop lockrocks and continue again.

I like this part of the fight, after that we can interrupt missles instead and finish the guy off, not worring about mana etc.

[Aerath]

Get vent or teamspeak.

Raid warnings ftl.

What moopy said about multi tasking is exactly the reason I use raid warnings.

(Some) people block everything out - regular chat, vent, everything.

Seeing "DON'T MOVE" appear in the middle of your screen, right on top of the boss you're supposed to be nuking tends to come through for some point.

There's even a nice li'l "bing" sound accompanying them.

[YamahaGuy]

DBM is a required mod in my guild, it too says "DONT MOVE" in big blue letters across your screen, and of course the timer bar for flame wreath.

Course, it doesnt have a "bing" heh heh....

[PIBSkootar]

Haha, some of the horror stories in this thread are the reasons I'm thankful for having alert raiders willing to listen. =P

[Aerath]

DBM is a required mod in my guild, it too says "DONT MOVE" in big blue letters across your screen, and of course the timer bar for flame wreath.

Course, it doesnt have a "bing" heh heh....

In all honesty, I think it's the Bing.

People are Pavlov'ed into paying attention when there's a Bing throughout raiding :laugh:

[swaldman]

Its hard for the tanks to communicate on vent when beams are appearing, while the warlocks are trying to communicate on blue beam, etc. The window is only a few seconds and the cross-talk is way crowded.


It shouldn't need all that much communication really - make sure everybody knows their order in the beams, and the only time they should need to talk about it is if somebody dies and a spare person has to be slotted in.

[dilfred]

well, i just thought as i'd comment on my progress and would like to thank everyone on their help on this topic (even if it's wandered now a little :P)

We downed him last wednesday with only 1 death, and that was me :) I (holy priest) got the very first garrot and died when Moroes was at 1% due to Ference breaking free of the shackle and managing to resist the hunter trap and hitting me while i was 1/2 ill already.

For information the group make up was
2 holy priest
1 shadow priest
2 prot warriors
1 mage
2 warlock
2 hunter
Kite killed Millistripe and Berrybuck, then shackled Ference and Daris for entire fight. Total of 6 garrots in the end.
I account it to a couple of things, 1 people 110% paying attention, 2 slightly more dps than usual. I had to be ruthless and select some people over others due to gear.
On a roll that evening as went on to Maiden and kicked her sorry behind and then downed R&J also. Also both guild firsts, so a very happy RL and also guild this week :) Moral is highest it's been for a while now.
We got very lost wandering around trying to find Curator, and he threw us back in small pieces as we were not really prepared for him.
Let's hope this week we can repeat this success and more...

Thanks again everyone for your help on tactics, group composition and just the positive attitude :P

[YamahaGuy]

Big gratz finally getting him. Good to hear.

Moroes last tuesday

We had 1 priest and no hunters, so only 1 CC

So what I decided to do, was burn 3 ads instead of two

I tanked the MS warrior and moroes
OT tanked the holy priest and secondary moroes
Raid dealt with the shadow priest
Shackles on prot warrior

We burned the shadow priest, holy priest, and then the MS warrior. Shackled the prot warrior cuz just takes too long to burn down I feel.

Went without a hitch 1 try.

Mage, rogue, boomkin present = all new people.

We also got that mongoose drop. Which BTW, was mailed to us a day or so ago. Thank gawd.

[rgirty]

well, i just thought as i'd comment on my progress and would like to thank everyone on their help on this topic (even if it's wandered now a little :P)

We downed him last wednesday with only 1 death, and that was me :) I (holy priest) got the very first garrot and died when Moroes was at 1% due to Ference breaking free of the shackle and managing to resist the hunter trap and hitting me while i was 1/2 ill already.

For information the group make up was
2 holy priest
1 shadow priest
2 prot warriors
1 mage
2 warlock
2 hunter
Kite killed Millistripe and Berrybuck, then shackled Ference and Daris for entire fight. Total of 6 garrots in the end.
I account it to a couple of things, 1 people 110% paying attention, 2 slightly more dps than usual. I had to be ruthless and select some people over others due to gear.
On a roll that evening as went on to Maiden and kicked her sorry behind and then downed R&J also. Also both guild firsts, so a very happy RL and also guild this week :) Moral is highest it's been for a while now.
We got very lost wandering around trying to find Curator, and he threw us back in small pieces as we were not really prepared for him.
Let's hope this week we can repeat this success and more...

Thanks again everyone for your help on tactics, group composition and just the positive attitude :P

Go in the back door for curator, only a short time ago i was in your position. Holy priest..kara trying to down moroes with my smallish guild.

IMO he's the first roadblock, the shade is the other. The difference is you will get a LOT of epix on the way to the shade.