SSC step-up?

[SideLabel]

So our guild has "cleared" Kara, meaning we've been able to take down all the main bosses (Attuman, Moroes, Maiden, Curator, Shade, and Prince), and we've almost gotten quite a ways with Gruul with an allied guild. Our trademark has interestingly enough been the fact that we've always been able to learn and beat an encounter the same night we first attempt it, often through several attempts and many runbacks. Not surpsingly Aran and Prince were the ones we had most trouble with, and Prince got a whole lot easier when the infernals didn't bomb us and we got the trick of healing the tank through phase 2.

Like I mentioned we've been starting to venture into Gruuls and after three attempts at Maulgar nailed it. Suprisingly it's all about the pulls, and running from the whirlwind ;) We got Gruul down to 53 % on the one attempt we had time for, then had to call it quits. I am pretty sure in a couple of weeks or so we will have Kara and Gruul on semi-farm status, pending on the experience of the people we bring along.

Now my question is this: how much steeper is the learning curve when entering SSC compared to Kara and Gruul, and how great are the demands on good gear? Most of us have pretty good gear (almost all the mages and warlocks have spellstrike or the frozen shadoweave set), but the healers and tanks are not quite great, but fairly good. In my humble opinion we are a skilled lot, but how hard will SSC smack us around when we decide to venture there?

[Zalath]

Just a few points:

What about Nightbane, did you just forgot to mention him, or have you not beaten him yet?

Gruul is actually a quite nice check on your DPS (I'm not saying that makes them ready for Mag/SSC/Void Reaver), but it checks their ability to work in and be aware of a group, and it forces them to deal enough damage before the raid wipes in a fight that becomes progressively harder, and staying alive. If you can't do enough damage before the tanks die you can't do it, much like BM. People might argue that there's a luck factor too, in less people dying, but they shouldn't be dying in the first place - people need to learn to move correctly.

[SideLabel]

Just a few points:

What about Nightbane, did you just forgot to mention him, or have you not beaten him yet?

Gruul is actually a quite nice check on your DPS (I'm not saying that makes them ready for Mag/SSC/Void Reaver), but it checks their ability to work in and be aware of a group, and it forces them to deal enough damage before the raid wipes in a fight that becomes progressively harder, and staying alive. If you can't do enough damage before the tanks die you can't do it, much like BM. People might argue that there's a luck factor too, in less people dying, but they shouldn't be dying in the first place - people need to learn to move correctly.

We've not yet had time to try Nightbane or Illhoof, but they're on our agenda from today. Strangely enough on Gruul our problem was not keeping the tanks up, but the dps people were dropping left and right from being thrown around into small bunches of people then shattered.

[wesje]

Gruul is a geartest. If u cant take him down in the first 3 attempts in a night ur just not ready for the next step. The next step being Magtheridon.

Gruul is just to test:

Do the DPS have the gear to take him down fast enough before the grows kick in
Do the tanks have enough armor, health and defence to live thru the reverberations and increasingly big damage
Do the healers have enough heals to heal back up the raid, and the regen to survive it

And for everyone

Does everyone have the communication and insight on the fight to dodge others during a slam/shatter. And not the least important, does everyone have the health to survive 2 ppls standing next to u during a shatter.


Magtheridon requires the same if not better communication and health on everyone. The roof falling in will kill people if u can survive gruul already. So will some shadowbolts if they get cast.

SSC comes after Magtheridon. The first boss you will probably do in there is the Tidewalker. Requires teamwork and again, health on everyone to survive the murlocwaves + waterfalls. The waterfalldmg is the same as gruuls shatter and magtheridons roof falling in, it cannot be stopped u just have to take it.

[Twoflower]

magtheridon next, he will be a concentration and excution test. one mistake from a guy controling a cube means a wipe, period.

I'd go for void reaver after you beat Magtheridon,. he is the easiest of the T5 bosses. Then SSC. All the T5 instances are fairly harder than Magtheridon, and more gear dependent.

[Zalath]

We've not yet had time to try Nightbane or Illhoof, but they're on our agenda from today. Strangely enough on Gruul our problem was not keeping the tanks up, but the dps people were dropping left and right from being thrown around into small bunches of people then shattered.

Gruul is about killing him before your tanks die, because they will die if you're not fast enough. Unless you're exceptinally geared, everyone has to survive (each druid gives you a get out of jail free-card, except for the tanks).

You might even want to take a few tests runs where the damage-dealers and healers focus on staying alive, just to get the movement routine in.

[Malentra]

Gruul is about killing him before your tanks die, because they will die if you're not fast enough. Unless you're exceptinally geared, everyone has to survive (each druid gives you a get out of jail free-card, except for the tanks).

You might even want to take a few tests runs where the damage-dealers and healers focus on staying alive, just to get the movement routine in.

Considering my guild, I'd say killing Gruul isn't a good test to see if you're ready for SSC. Killing Magtheridon is.

[Zalath]

Considering my guild, I'd say killing Gruul isn't a good test to see if you're ready for SSC. Killing Magtheridon is.

I think I noted that it wasn't a test for SSC. I meant that it was a test of your guild's ability to work in general.

[Hydro]

Purely a difficulty standpoint -


Void Reaver
Gruul
Magtheridon
Morogrim
Fathom Lord
Solarian (2 AR Tank)
Lurker Below
Hydross
Alar - Leotheras
Vashj
Kael'Thalas

Kael and Vashj are both significantly more difficult than the starting Hyjal and BT bosses as well.



Edit - To the original question, there is no learning curve anymore thanks to Bosskillers and almost 0 gear demand thanks to continual nerfs. If you have good players in your raid, there are very few reasons you shouldn't be able to clear most of SSC and TK within the next couple of weeks. If you have bad or flaky players, of course you won't.

[SadaraK]

To the original question, there is no learning curve anymore thanks to Bosskillers and almost 0 gear demand thanks to continual nerfs.

Indeed, just do the encounters naked and ull be fine ;).

Does sound like a bit of a winge though i have to admit Hydros, nerfs yes, nerfs dont equal no gear requirement or a guild who currently not even killing gruul/nightbane/mag to be able to clear ssc/TK in the next 2 weeks. Telling them they can is an unrealistic comment imo, and may be likley to lead him astray for whats expected.

Gear does matter, no gear check is the kind of comment made from a person who already has a relatively well geared raid. Void for eg, hes cake, 1 nighter. But if you have alot of pre kara geared dps for him, u likley wont have the dps to kill him anyway. Same with 2 well geared tanks for Mag, or even res gear for the 2 warrior tanks on hydross. Yes its easier then it used to be, that doesnt equal the kind of progress your talking about for a pre-gruul guild.

[swaldman]

Edit - To the original question, there is no learning curve anymore thanks to Bosskillers and almost 0 gear demand thanks to continual nerfs.

Er... Hydro, that's rather unrealistic IMHO. I don't think that many people would claim that reading a strategy on bosskillers, no matter how well illustrated, means that a group will one-shot it. People have to actually do the encounter to see how things actually work. I guess that makes me a bad player :hanky:

Equally on gear...... well you try something like Gruul naked and post a screenie when you're done :-)
OK, so maybe the gear requirement isn't quite what it was, but saying that there's "almost 0 gear demand" is rather unrealistic and dismissive.

[Hydro]

Indeed, just do the encounters naked and ull be fine ;).

Does sound like a bit of a winge though i have to admit Hydros, nerfs yes, nerfs dont equal no gear requirement or a guild who currently not even killing gruul/nightbane/mag to be able to clear ssc/TK in the next 2 weeks. Telling them they can is an unrealistic comment imo, and may be likley to lead him astray for whats expected.

Gear does matter, no gear check is the kind of comment made from a person who already has a relatively well geared raid. Void for eg, hes cake, 1 nighter. But if you have alot of pre kara geared dps for him, u likley wont have the dps to kill him anyway. Same with 2 well geared tanks for Mag, or even res gear for the 2 warrior tanks on hydross. Yes its easier then it used to be, that doesnt equal the kind of progress your talking about for a pre-gruul guild.




The gear requirements are easily just Karazhan loot / best blues / heroics now for all of SSC and TK. To me that is basically non existent, as any guild in SSC or TK should obviously expect to have that kind of gear.
Yea, they won't clear all of SSC/TK in the next couple of weeks, which is why I said most of. There is no reason a guild of good and dedicated players couldn't kill Morogrim, Fathom-Lord, Tidewalker, Lurker, and Void Reaver in a 2 week span. Hydross would take longer, including resist gear crafting, and Leotheras - Al'Ar - Solarian are the hard bosses in the mix.
Killing Magtheridon is still quite a bit harder than killing VR, assuming you have tanks that aren't total idiots with threat cycles.

[SideLabel]

We have good tanks, good mages, and good healers, but what we do not have is great gear. Some of us do, but the majority have yet to be covered in Kara purples and heroic blues. So I guess the real obstacle is getting ourselves geared properly. Indeed I do not believe SSC/TK is a possibility within 2 weeks, or perhaps even 4. The guild is quite casual, so the required dedicated 25 man base of players is not in place. Thanks for all the input though.

[Oatmealsmurf]

I think you're oversimplfying it Hydro... IMO the vast majority of guilds are quick enough on the learning curve or determined enough collectively to master all the technical aspects of the SSC/TK fights.

And though you can skip Hydross and Lurker and go directly to Tidewalker... that is a ton of trash to clear (which they must learn also). By the time they clear the trash they might get one or two shots at Tidewalker (who incidentally hits like a truck which healers need to get used to) and they you're getting repops and having to clear trash again.

I think people sometimes forget how few people even saw a Rag kill first hand prior to the expansion. There really aren't that many seasoned raiders out there comparitively. I say go for Mag and start crafting the resist gear for Hydross in the meantime. Void Reaver is also a good idea... he's basically a Tier 5 vending machine and the trash in TK isn't that hard.