How do you back out of a pug that looks like it'll suck?

[rubberdubbie]

The other day I joined a PUG for Steamvault (non-heroic). I'm a level 70 holy priest. When I got into the group, I inspected our lvl 70 warrior's equipment and found he was dressed from head to toe in epics. So we pulled out first mob and I found he was taking a beating and draining me of my mana to keep him alive. So we went to the next mob and the same thing happened. So I took a closer look at the tank's gear and discovered he was wearing all lvl 60 epics (WTH hangs onto lvl 60 epics when he's lvl 70?). I wanted to leave right away, but didn't want to seem rude. So we wiped about 3 more times then I told them it wasn't working out and left...it cost me a lot of gold in repairs. Is there a graceful way to leave even b4 you start any pulls if you know the group won't work? I didn't say anything about the warrior's armor except a whisper to the hunter in the group.

[swaldman]

I think I might have politely told the warrior that he seemed to be taking an awful lot of damage, and asked how much armour he had.

[Kugan]

Reroll a paladin, pull a lot of aggro, then bubble + hearth out! :D.

Seriously, what you did was fine. You can always lie (I’m so sorry, I have to go somewhere), but honestly telling them that it’s not going to work out, and then leaving, is better.

I would have whispered something to the tank along the lines of:
“Sorry mate, but I think you are a bit undergeared for this. May I ask why you are wearing level 60 gear?”, as well as a whisper to each of the other players assuring them that it wasn’t their fault, without specifying whose it was.

[Pin]

Probably a lot of the common reasons people give when they leave a pug would be "good" excuses, at least because everyone is used to them.

1. Fake a disconnect.
2. "Oh sorry, forgot I had kara, gtg"
3. RL-based excuse.

Problem with all of these is that they make you look bad. It's possible to check specs and gear on the armory before you set off though, and these excuses don't look nearly as bad as long as you're still forming the group, rather than doing the first pull.

I had a group the other day where I inspected our druid MT. This was for shadow labs (non-heroic) and he was wearing the full pvp epic set from level 60. Thing was... it was the moonkin set.

We somehow made it to Vorpil, and after 2 tries gave up. He'd brought a terribly geared shammy with him too, so we simply didn't have enough dps to kill the boss before the adds became overwhelming :(

[moopy]

Depends on the group- if it seems like they are nice, sane people, but are just undergeared/not experienced enough for what they've taken on*, sometimes you can explain this- especially if it's late, and you really only had time for a "normal" clear rather than a slow one where everything needs explaining and maybe tried out a few things. Some people are totally fine with this, and appreciate you telling them upfront that it's not going to work out, and they should save their repair bills. Polite and honest wins the day here. Since they're nice people, you might be pleased to run into them in future, so leaving them on good terms seems like basic manners.

Some people actually don't mind "sorry, you're a bit undergeared for this", so they don't waste a couple of hours wiping. Some even recognise when they have bitten off more than they can chew difficulty-wise. They'll appreciate being treated with a little consideration rather than the usual "ZOMG U NOOB" routine. If you're feeling really guilty, you can always agree to go somewhere easier with them soon to help them get up to speed :)


Then there's the crazy groups, full of young/volatile players who spend the first ten minutes linking their gear at each other, arguing over who is a "nub" and wrangling about who does the most damage. They might be geared well enough for the instance, if you could get them to focus for more than a minute. Generally, that's the time to avoid possible conflict and elevated blood pressures with an excuse. The oldest one, "sorry, my guild needs me" works, but be creative. Wish everyone good luck and high tail it out of there so fast that all they can see is dust. Phew.

[JaedxRapture]

I generally leave in the following fashion: "Sorry, but this group isn't gonna work. Have fine wiping." or (after a couple wipes) "You guys ****ing suck."

:grin:

[LunarSolaris]

It strikes me as a bit arrogant to "presume" the group is going to suck before you even start. Even though one should have upgraded past level 60 epics by level 70, it by no means "assures" they will suck (even if it is an indication).

The true test is performance - which it appears you sampled.

I think the best thing to do, is to see how a group does... if they wipe several times at the beginning or are going tremendously slow, I think it's fair enough to call it. At least you can say you gave it the benefit of the doubt.

I personally think that it's arrogant and rude when people look down their noses at people wearing green gear and assume they suck. I've seen some people perform adequately in what would otherwise be considered "sub-par" gear.

Of course the standards are raised in higher instances such as heroics, Karazhan, and beyond... but in a standard 70 blue instance... I'd at least advise giving the group a shot.

A little bit of maturity goes a long way.

[rubberdubbie]

It strikes me as a bit arrogant to "presume" the group is going to suck before you even start. Even though one should have upgraded past level 60 epics by level 70, it by no means "assures" they will suck (even if it is an indication).

The true test is performance - which it appears you sampled.

I think the best thing to do, is to see how a group does... if they wipe several times at the beginning or are going tremendously slow, I think it's fair enough to call it. At least you can say you gave it the benefit of the doubt.

I personally think that it's arrogant and rude when people look down their noses at people wearing green gear and assume they suck. I've seen some people perform adequately in what would otherwise be considered "sub-par" gear.

Of course the standards are raised in higher instances such as heroics, Karazhan, and beyond... but in a standard 70 blue instance... I'd at least advise giving the group a shot.

A little bit of maturity goes a long way.

Yes, I gave the tank a chance to prove himself.

However, I think that if you see that your tank is geared in all lvl 60 epics, you can pretty much assume that he will be taking a ton of damage against lvl 70 elite mobs who are designed by Blizzard to take down tanks in much higher level gear. He could be the best tank (talent-wise) in the world, but without some decent gear, he'll just be a healing sponge. I'd much rather heal a tank in lvl 70 "greens" than a tank in lvl 60 epics any day.

[rgirty]

No offense to the op but at level 70 you should have enough wealth that 3 deaths do not = a lot of gold.

Pugs are pugs, if the group is wiping most likely no one is enjoying themselves. Leave when you feel like it.

[xDarkDrifterx]

First - I'd say:

" WTF Dude lol . . .you do realize that you're wearing gear 10 levels under you that greens from OL far surpass?"

"Did you just start playing again?"

Depending on answer I'd say

"Okay, lets see how this goes then"

I'd then wait to see what happens with the first bit of the instance - 4 or 5 pulls w/e . . .

If it went craptastically (and I was party leader)

"I'd just say, I'm sorry bro but this isn't going to work with you as a tank - unfortunately we're going to have to find someone with appropriate gear to complete this instance, nothing personal, but I'm gonna have to ask you to leave"

/join LFG
/4 LF Tank SV NonHeroic - ready to port you now.

If I'm not the party leader and the guy is an ahole I'd whisper other party members and say wanna regroup outside of instance?

If another member is leader, I'd ask them to do it or give me lead

Sux and sometimes you're the ahole in others eyes but in a situtation like that I'd rather be the ahole then a smuck who just waited 2 hours and didn't even kill the first boss lol

And, if it all became jsut too much of a verbal back and forth over this guys gear I'd just tell the party that it's not going to work and to whisper me when / if the get an appropriate tank.

[rubberdubbie]

No offense to the op but at level 70 you should have enough wealth that 3 deaths do not = a lot of gold.

Pugs are pugs, if the group is wiping most likely no one is enjoying themselves. Leave when you feel like it.

To me it is, because I'm leveling tailor at 360...and I've spent a fortune on cloth so far. I had to give up my herbalism to pick up tailoring to get the primal mooncloth set. So that source of income is now gone. I also have to heal for our guild runs of Karazhan (3 to 4 runs a week), so I have to buy herbs to make pots, elixirs and flasks. Add the repair bills for dying in Kara on top of all that...I'm pretty poor. I've started doing daily quests now, so that is helping me from being penniless. Well...at least I'm a real priest and lead a life of poverty...:( Don't even mention epic flying mount...that's a long way off for me.

[xDarkDrifterx]

I also have to heal for our guild runs of Karazhan (3 to 4 runs a week), so I have to buy herbs to make pots, elixirs and flasks. Add the repair bills for dying in Kara on top of all that...I'm pretty poor.

Maybe your guild should have a small guild bank and you should all work together to farm mats and ecko or w/e for the xtra buffs you want in larger instances. You shouldnt have to buy herbs to make pots for yourselves (I understand a lot do though). IMO everyone should work together, and you could make pots for everyone b/c they all gave you Gold or farmed some mats that are kept track of. This way you only need to farm your own herbs for the pot's you are going to use rather than purchasing them. Having 4 gatherers gather the herbs for that weeks runs could benefit you all as one may find a lot of something that the others did not due to herb node spawn times.

Just a suggestion that may help cut down on cash going out of your pocket :smiley:

[LunarSolaris]

In some ways it depends on what the level 60 epics are. Some of the T3 items are better than level 70 blues... and a few of the trinkets from BWL are still viable at 70. But I agree... as a whole, one can generally get better geared with level 70 greens than most level 60 epics.

Gear can certainly be an indication, but my point is that the best policy should be giving someone a try rather than making an assumption prior to that.

Now... if a person were wearing level 60 blues in a level 70 instance, I'd have greater concern.

[rgirty]

To me it is, because I'm leveling tailor at 360...and I've spent a fortune on cloth so far. I had to give up my herbalism to pick up tailoring to get the primal mooncloth set. So that source of income is now gone. I also have to heal for our guild runs of Karazhan (3 to 4 runs a week), so I have to buy herbs to make pots, elixirs and flasks. Add the repair bills for dying in Kara on top of all that...I'm pretty poor. I've started doing daily quests now, so that is helping me from being penniless. Well...at least I'm a real priest and lead a life of poverty...:( Don't even mention epic flying mount...that's a long way off for me.

See my guides on making $ and its a little late, but I have one for tailoring 300-350 at a profit.

If you are an alchemist you should have the xmute primal earth to primal water, this basically gives you very cheap PMC xmutes AND 15g (on my server) profit by doing the xmute. If you are xmute spec you make more.

I do all that you do, but i buy the pots and hand out gold for repairs.

I've posted many guides on how to make $ as a holy priest. Use the search function to find them. Especially now that you are a tailor.

[kcma]

i'd just say sorry this is not gonna work and leave, u dont even have to go in to any details if u dont want to.

[Woodlander]

I dunno, I cant say that Ive ever left a group before starting no matter how bad it looks from the get go just because I get proven wrong enough to stick it out. (I still shake my head in disbelief at watching a rogue tank Botanica better than the tank who DC'd did). Honesty is the best policy, Ive known folks to straight up state "We are wiping too often, I can't afford the repair bill." Sometimes they are given a hail and farewell and sometimes the group offers to chip in some repair money to keep the group together. Seen it wirk both ways. If they ever do offer you repair cash you might as well stick it out, at least its rep.

[Tollin]

Just leave my time is too valuable to sit around dying because of someone else unable or unwilling to try and a lvl 70 in 60 epics is unwilling in my opinion did he not pick up really good gear along the way?

Anyhow i have spent too many painful instance runs wiping and re-wiping on boss number two. Trying to be the good lil priest and get thru. Now I am jaded. I will give you three wipes then I am out.

And if I am too mad and dont want to tell you why I wont and if you dont like me for it so what.

Sorry but I dont put up with crap from groups anymore.

[Imraath]

I just don't pug any more.

[Big Guns]

Up until now if I have thought members were undergeared or too low for an instance I would nonetheless start the instance hoping to be proved wrong. Not once was I ever proved wrong: the group sucked. So in order to avoid being "arrogant" I nonetheless proceeded to waste 30 minutes or more of my limited play time.

Now, if I think the group is not going to work out I bail at the first chance I get. If that is arrogant: so be it. My time is precious to me and I choose not to waste it.

[Justinledwards]

It depends. If I've joined a group who is insulting... you know, hey nub, hey lawl , lots of leet speak - then i'll leave. If they are willing to listen and learn, then i'll hang around.... more better players is a good thing. If they repeat the same mistake several times... then i'll leave.. e.g. mages that repeatedly break their own sheep with a trinket + POM or whatever then die, then say the group is underpowered... this ain't azeroth!

[swaldman]

70 warrior in 60 epics? Three possiblities strike me:

1. They're all T3 level and actually OK (unlikely, I can't believe he hasn't found a single upgrade on the way to 70)
2. He's obsessed by the fact that they're zomgepixx and refuses to replace them until better zomgepixx come along.
3. He's paid somebody to powerlevel him from 60 to 70 so that he can get back to raiding.

[Wintrow]

one might wonder how long it took him to get to L70 in L60 gear. One mob at a time, 3 levels below him?

Like that warrior who, at L45 still only had his L1 skills. (like... rank 1 Heroic Strike).

[thorgill]

I generally leave in the following fashion: "Sorry, but this group isn't gonna work. Have fine wiping." or (after a couple wipes) "You guys ****ing suck."

:grin:

Ahh, but maybe it's YOU that maked them suck. ;)

[Twoflower]

oh dont get all treehugging, thorgill and company, but after a few 100 PuG runs you just know if a group will be easy or if it will be a 4 hours wipe fest...

whit my mage, i usualy wait till the first wipe, pop invisibility and run for the exit. No excuses, just anouncing that i have to go. I dont give reasons, most of the time.

[NOYB]

Honesty is the best policy. Don't be hurtful. Just tell the truth.

It's everyone's responsibility to prepare for an instance. Gearing appropriately is a big part of that. Players that are seriously undergeared are putting the rest of the party at a significant disadvantage. (Especially, when that player is the tank. Yeesh.)

If a group can't handle that kind of "excuse", then it's not likely they have much experience grouping in the first place. A mature player will realize you're telling the truth and hopefully prepare him/herself better for the next time.

[moopy]

oh dont get all treehugging, thorgill and company, but after a few 100 PuG runs you just know if a group will be easy or if it will be a 4 hours wipe fest...

Yep, give it a few pulls- and if the tank isn't trying to tank the mobs (plenty of single target wonders, even in EPIXXXX), the dps aren't focus firing, the CC isn't being handled in a sane manner, or the healer is standing around wanding on full mana while people slowly die.. then it's usually time to go. If you're feeling friendly, you can try sorting things out a little (since everyone has bad days), but if they just can't manage it, it's time to go.

[Hrungnir]

I can see having your epic tank gear still be better tank gear than the green dps gear you've been getting to level up with. My full tank gear at 67 is still mostly level 60 blues, and I've got more armor than a lot of level 70's (or so the groups I'm tanking for say).

It's still a bit of a sign to be worried, but not enough to leave (yet).

I usually talk to people, see how mature they are, how willing they are to do the raid icons and actually follow them. Ask the tank how he feels about tanking. If you're really unsure say ahead of time that you have enough time for a normal length run, but you can't stay there all night. Then give them three wipes before you say you need to leave :) Even epicced out that few deaths shouldn't be too much of a gold cost.

For any of the normal five mans tanking is much more about skill than gear.

[LunarSolaris]

Thing is I've been in groups where it had a bad start (mis-pulls and 1 or 2 wipes right at the beginning). However, I've seen where the group "pulls together" pretty quickly after the first troubles and does well the rest of the instance.

I realize that much of the time it's just a bad group, and I don't voice any qualms about pulling out of a bad group. However, I also find that some people are unnecessarily rude in video games. I suppose it goes along with lowered maturity that tends to be bred by the online community.

[cyks]

whit my mage, i usualy wait till the first wipe, pop invisibility and run for the exit. No excuses, just anouncing that i have to go. I dont give reasons, most of the time.

Wow, great way to alienate (at least) 4 people at once, instead of just the 1 bad player. Nothing wrong with being truthful and giving the real reason... /w to each if need be.

[Stigg]

"This isn't worth my time"

hearth

[bwirum]

But I gotta agree with Hrungnir. A lot of warriors leveled to 70, getting lots of nice dps gear along the way, picked dps gear from all quest rewards and such.

You'd see a lot of these still using T2/3 gear because they just didn't have better tanking gear from their leveling. And to be honest, T2/3 does quite well in non-heroic lvl 70 dungeons. It's more to the guy wearing it as usual.

[moopy]

Thing is I've been in groups where it had a bad start (mis-pulls and 1 or 2 wipes right at the beginning). However, I've seen where the group "pulls together" pretty quickly after the first troubles and does well the rest of the instance.


Yep, some groups start off hopeless and only really pull together near the end of the instance, which is frustrating. I've had that with some groups- often four undergeared people from a "casual" guild who lacked one, and after being lumbered with marking and leading, and some patient prodding, got them to work like a well-oiled machine. At times like that, I just regret that the whole instance couldn't have been that smooth- as they'd have enjoyed it all the more. However, that sort of thing only works when you have the time to spare- sometimes when it's getting a bit late, you just want a straightforward clear of an instance and don't have time for a long learning curve.

[dwarfenhelm]

I can see having your epic tank gear still be better tank gear than the green dps gear you've been getting to level up with. My full tank gear at 67 is still mostly level 60 blues, and I've got more armor than a lot of level 70's (or so the groups I'm tanking for say).


at level 67 running dungeons doesnt matter what gear you have on you can tank underbog or mana tombs in green dps gear with a full out arms or furry spec and not have to worry. you will see a big difference when you try and run shadow labs or steam vaults in your level 60 blues and you will cause the group to wipe because the healer will be constant on you and go oom in no time at all. being a tank at 70 is more about dodging and blocking damage than it is about having tons of armour to soak it up. i cant see a lvl 70 tank getting 490 defense dressed in lvl 60 gear no matter how good it might be (maybe im wrong) and if this is the case then hes taking 3-5k hits not 1-2k hits.
and as to leaving pugs ive looked at the way some people have turned up for runs in shattered halls dressed head to toe in 60-70 greens with the odd blue thrown in from long forgotten drop and the think omg this isnt going to work. and yes 2nd or 3rd pull the said player has dragged agro died and then sent agro to healer as im running around like a fool trying to soak up the agro. or you get the super kids with OMG NOOB why are you wearing THAT then you get 5 mins of links to the gear they think every one should be in as well as saying when this drops im needing . the first group i will stay for aa few wipes then say sorry this isnt going to work as you need to sort xyz. the second group i rarely make it to the start of the instance.
the other pugs ive walked out on are when i join and say ok so whos going to be doing the cc in fight so all of a sudden a player is just dropped and then spamm messages LF mage come up. i ask the dropped player if they left and then ill just say thanks but i wont run with you lot and leave myself.

[moopy]

and as to leaving pugs ive looked at the way some people have turned up for runs in shattered halls dressed head to toe in 60-70 greens with the odd blue thrown in from long forgotten drop and the think omg this isnt going to work. and yes 2nd or 3rd pull the said player has dragged agro died and then sent agro to healer as im running around like a fool trying to soak up the agro.


Yep, no matter how hard the tank works, if everyone is getting hit due to lack of focus fire, and the healer is trying to prevent a wipe, there's gonna be some healtanking. If the tank is doing everything right, I tend to try letting badly-behaved DPS die a few times, as I know it won't cause a wipe. If the tank is one of the (all too common) single target wonders who pulls a group, and then whacks one mob, expecting all the others to stay magically stuck to him through no visible means (please, some shield slams, even a thunderclap, something!), then you know the group is D-O-O-M-E-D.


or you get the super kids with OMG NOOB why are you wearing THAT then you get 5 mins of links to the gear they think every one should be in as well as saying when this drops im needing . the first group i will stay for aa few wipes then say sorry this isnt going to work as you need to sort xyz. the second group i rarely make it to the start of the instance.

Shudder, I hate groups who spend the first five minutes linking their gear, and then the rest of the instance spamming atlasloot. The ones who spend the whole instance saying "if this drops, I am needing" tend to leave once they've got what they came for, too.

I mean, fair enough, if you're in it for something offspec, it's polite to warn people. I kinda want the Desolation gloves for my shammy for the four item bonus (for my enhancement days), and if I bother to do a PUG to SH, I check that this isn't a problem for the hunter (if any). However, after discussing it, I do like to shut up and play...

[bwirum]

I was in a mostly guild group the other day for Shadow Lab, but with a pug tank. We were short on cc, so I mc'd a few times. When mc broke I ran to the tank and popped fade. Mysteriously enough the mob never stopped mushing me. This was quite strange, since the tank is one I've grouped with a few times before and was picked off my friendslist and he's always been a good tank before. And it wasn't even heroic this time, since a couple of us were saved for heroic SL from earlier.

A couple of bosses in he asked us if we could find another tank, since he was almost falling asleep at the keyboard :rolleyes: so at least I got my explanation. We stuck to being more careful than usual after that and it all went well.

[Twoflower]

Wow, great way to alienate (at least) 4 people at once, instead of just the 1 bad player. Nothing wrong with being truthful and giving the real reason... /w to each if need be.

1: who said that it is just one bad player? if there is only one, i usualy whisper him and try to teach him what to do.

2: i couldnt care less about alienating some BAD PuG players, since i will not play whit them again, anyway.

3: Why should i go trough the bother and whisper everyone. At least 2 of them will feel insulted, whisper back, start a argument about how it is not theyr fault etc... Why should i care ?

[KingTurtle]

You can always make him feel odd by asking why he had level 60 epics.

[cyks]

1: who said that it is just one bad player? if there is only one, i usualy whisper him and try to teach him what to do.

The OP said it was just one bad player- the tank. If everyone else was properly geared and doing their job, there would be no reason not to offer them an appology or at least a reason before leaving.

If they're all bad, then true- it doesn't matter... but that's rarely the case (unless it's a guild run and you're the only pick-up).

Otherwise, you've just alienated yourself from possibly 3 good players- and their guilds for no reason.

[unbdm]

lol, I got in a pug with a druid tank that I didn't know, two hunters, a rouge (I'm a holy priest) for SV a week or so ago.

My first thought was no mage, two hunters, this is going to suck. After an early trash wipe the druid (who was the group leader) wispered me saying he was going to kick a hunter and invite a mage... I said "that's kind of rude ins't it, don't be that way"... he held off (likely fearing he may lose his healer).

We ended up cleaning it without another wipe.

I usualy give a it a few wipes before I bail, even if I have better offers on the table. If I'm talking with several diferent groups, I generaly stay commited to the one I end up going with; I don't mind being first to bail after a couple of wipes if I think the group won't get it together; but I give it a try, regardless.

Barry

[KingTurtle]

^^Yeah I think I pretty much have the same tactic, but most of the time if I'm in a good mood, I stay with it all the way.

[LunarSolaris]

Yep, some groups start off hopeless and only really pull together near the end of the instance, which is frustrating. I've had that with some groups- often four undergeared people from a "casual" guild who lacked one, and after being lumbered with marking and leading, and some patient prodding, got them to work like a well-oiled machine. At times like that, I just regret that the whole instance couldn't have been that smooth- as they'd have enjoyed it all the more. However, that sort of thing only works when you have the time to spare- sometimes when it's getting a bit late, you just want a straightforward clear of an instance and don't have time for a long learning curve.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I've also stuck out some runs that I should have left on... but then, I tend to be not as straight forward with people as I should be sometimes. I've a few times stuck with a few "stinker" runs because I was helping friends or guildies that just weren't as competent players as they could be.

Though that's a bit different than a PUG though... because it's a different ball game when it's friends or guildies (imo).

[dinoma]

I am actually surprised how many people in this reasonable forum think that the world equivalent of "You guys ****ing suck" is ok. I don't have the time to heavy guild raid and have had lots of fun in pugs. sure you get bad ones, and sure you get good ones. I find that people are very open to constructive criticism - as I am.
As far as I am concerned the only ones to keep clear of are the L33T based "I did 3 4K plus fireballs!!!!" - they are not friends.
I have always had more problems with dps than tank/healer

[korl]

The other day in Underbog we waited for a level 60 mage almost 30 min (could not summon b/c of level). when he showed up he had level 35 gear, 2000-ish health and 3200 mana. The rest were level 66 and geared ok for their level. We wiped on the second pull (mage died first) then the group disbanded w/out any explanation. There was not one word exchanged in chat - except my unanswered questions. I was so angry and frustrated, over 1h30mins wasted...

[Shadowpup]

Agreed, but it might be indirect.

I've seen cases where the dps got blamed for a wipe but it was the tank not doing his job that caused the dps to draw agro.

[rubberdubbie]

Agreed, but it might be indirect.

I've seen cases where the dps got blamed for a wipe but it was the tank not doing his job that caused the dps to draw agro.


Depends on the DPS. If a person decides to ignore the fact that his uber DPS will draw agro away from the tank, there's not much the tank can do but try to taunt the mob back. Not only that...if that person draws agro, then the priest also has to waste mana healing someone who's going to take a lot of damage.

[rubberdubbie]

The other day in Underbog we waited for a level 60 mage almost 30 min (could not summon b/c of level). when he showed up he had level 35 gear, 2000-ish health and 3200 mana. The rest were level 66 and geared ok for their level. We wiped on the second pull (mage died first) then the group disbanded w/out any explanation. There was not one word exchanged in chat - except my unanswered questions. I was so angry and frustrated, over 1h30mins wasted...


Sounds like this guy was power-leveled from lvl 35 to 60.

[Woodlander]

Depends on the DPS. If a person decides to ignore the fact that his uber DPS will draw agro away from the tank, there's not much the tank can do but try to taunt the mob back. Not only that...if that person draws agro, then the priest also has to waste mana healing someone who's going to take a lot of damage.

And there was much outcry from the people and they called out, "Oh, how will we not pull aggro from the tank, for we are blind and have 35%crit!" and the lord Mod saw their plight and bequethed upon them the Threatmeter, that their eyes might be opened. But the people scorned this gift, and guildie fell upon guildie in dissention. But even in this dark time there were a few who saw the greatness of this gift and said, "Now we shall know if our tank sucks, and if our dps is gaining too much aggro. For now we shall be able to tell threat in other ways than 3-5 sunders on our mob." And there was much rejoicing.....

[LunarSolaris]

A level 60 shouldn't be in Underbog as it is... and that seems pretty unusual that a level 60 would be in level 35 blues? That just strikes me as overly weird.

If you have to wait more than 20-25 minutes for people to "show up" for a group, I think it's more than reasonable to let the group know that you have other more important things to do.

Of course, a little bit of tact goes a long LONG way.

[xDarkDrifterx]

The other day in Underbog we waited for a level 60 mage almost 30 min (could not summon b/c of level). when he showed up he had level 35 gear, 2000-ish health and 3200 mana. The rest were level 66 and geared ok for their level. We wiped on the second pull (mage died first) then the group disbanded w/out any explanation. There was not one word exchanged in chat - except my unanswered questions. I was so angry and frustrated, over 1h30mins wasted...

that's when you (taken from a diff thread but still funny)

/target retard
/cast misdirect
/point @ retard
/lol @ retard
/cast multishot (@ closest mob)
/cast feigndeath
Hearth . . .

:laughing:

[unbdm]

And there was much outcry from the people and they called out, "Oh, how will we not pull aggro from the tank, for we are blind and have 35%crit!" and the lord Mod saw their plight and bequethed upon them the Threatmeter, that their eyes might be opened. But the people scorned this gift, and guildie fell upon guildie in dissention. But even in this dark time there were a few who saw the greatness of this gift and said, "Now we shall know if our tank sucks, and if our dps is gaining too much aggro. For now we shall be able to tell threat in other ways than 3-5 sunders on our mob." And there was much rejoicing.....

LOL... clever...

[bwirum]

And there was much outcry from the people and they called out, "Oh, how will we not pull aggro from the tank, for we are blind and have 35%crit!" and the lord Mod saw their plight and bequethed upon them the Threatmeter, that their eyes might be opened. But the people scorned this gift, and guildie fell upon guildie in dissention. But even in this dark time there were a few who saw the greatness of this gift and said, "Now we shall know if our tank sucks, and if our dps is gaining too much aggro. For now we shall be able to tell threat in other ways than 3-5 sunders on our mob." And there was much rejoicing.....

Dang. If I had enough space in my sig, I'd put it there ...

[swaldman]

There was not one word exchanged in chat - except my unanswered questions.

That's actually one of the worst warning signs IMHO. I have been known to leave groups before they started because nobody would speak...

[moopy]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I've also stuck out some runs that I should have left on... but then, I tend to be not as straight forward with people as I should be sometimes. I've a few times stuck with a few "stinker" runs because I was helping friends or guildies that just weren't as competent players as they could be.

Though that's a bit different than a PUG though... because it's a different ball game when it's friends or guildies (imo).

I agree wholeheartedly with the above, also :)

You just have to hope that you specced "unrelenting cheerfulness" when stuck with less competent guildies. I'm not that gifted with tact (look surprised, please, everyone), and so it's always an interesting mental exercise to find a new and non-patronising way to say "guys, we kill the skull first, that's why it's a skull", after the Nth wipe where an add-summoning skull mob has been allowed to raise a sweet little family :)

[Wintrow]

I agree wholeheartedly with the above, also :)

You just have to hope that you specced "unrelenting cheerfulness" when stuck with less competent guildies. I'm not that gifted with tact (look surprised, please, everyone), and so it's always an interesting mental exercise to find a new and non-patronising way to say "guys, we kill the skull first, that's why it's a skull", after the Nth wipe where an add-summoning skull mob has been allowed to raise a sweet little family :)

MORE demons !! Azeroth needs more demons !!

One wonders why those summoners ever stop summoning...

[moopy]

Normally, it's due to being blown to smoking shreds..

[LunarSolaris]

lol I've had a few times where I really wanted to lay into people, but haven't. However, there have been a few times where I have finally said "listen, for whatever reason it's just not working tonight. Let's go ahead and call it for the night." I have used that tactic when I've helped guildies that just didn't have the skill to be in the instance we were in. I have always preferred to use that method rather than singling out someone.

[Ashenshugra]

I always blame my kids if I want to leave a group. (may have been mentioned, but im not reading all that stuff)

[bubkusjones]

I just pull my network cable out of my card, or unplug my router. Forced disconnects FTW.

[Gavriel]

I am actually surprised how many people in this reasonable forum think that the world equivalent of "You guys ****ing suck" is ok. I don't have the time to heavy guild raid and have had lots of fun in pugs. sure you get bad ones, and sure you get good ones. I find that people are very open to constructive criticism - as I am.

That sounds a bit harsh, but I play this game for fun. If a PUG is not working out because people do not understand things clearly enough - you have three choices:

* Spend your time educating them, most likely facing STFU Noob! type of comments.
* Carry on, wasting your time and getting more frustrated
* Announce why you are leaving and leave

I'd pick the third option most of the times, with the others as options for when necessary.

[NOYB]

A good example would be the other night in Hellfire Citadel, Ramparts.

I'm playing a hunter. The rest of the group is composed of mage, paladin, rogue, and warrior. The warrior is 67, rogue 62, mage 63, paladin 59, and myself 61. Should be a cakewalk right?

Apparently, none of them have ever run this instance before; so I take the lead on how things should go. Initially, I let the warrior pull. However, after observing his lack of awareness with relation to adds - I say, "Let me pull." Things improve. We still have a couple bad fights due to bad communication. (I blame myself and make it clear that I will rectify these problems.) After this, things go smooth. I do notice that the warrior is doing a rather horrible job of tanking. The only reason he holds any aggro is due to the amount of damage that he's able to do. I gently recommend modifying his tanking strategy.

Anyway. We make it to the final fight. I outline exactly how the fight needs to go down. We kill the two orcs, then varuzden drops quickly, and the dragon proceeds to annihilate the healer. Subsequently killing the rest of the party. I figure, we'll get it next time. No. Maybe next time? No. Surely this time? No. I lost count after wiping probably 10 times on this dragon.

The tank simply could not gain aggro on the dragon fast enough. This is with the paladin using his bubble... I'm at a loss for words. After numerous wipes the paladin drops. I ask the group if they really want to go on. They seem to have a desire to kill this dragon no matter what. All I'm able to get is a 57 priest. We wipe again. At this point I'm seething mad and kick the warrior. (Something I admittedly should have done long ago.) The priest asks a warrior friend of hers to join. He comes in. We kill the dragon the first time.

The moral of this story. If the tank is bad. Don't waste your time. Get a new tank.

[Magikhat]

Gotta learn to be a dick.

"pfft im not gonna sit here and wipe because you guys suck at playing your classes, peace"

[moopy]

lol I've had a few times where I really wanted to lay into people, but haven't. However, there have been a few times where I have finally said "listen, for whatever reason it's just not working tonight. Let's go ahead and call it for the night." I have used that tactic when I've helped guildies that just didn't have the skill to be in the instance we were in. I have always preferred to use that method rather than singling out someone.

Almost goes without saying- I've had a few of those with friends/guildies where they ignore instructions, attack the wrong mobs, body pull constantly and the like. After five wipes before the first boss (on an instance that is normally done with no deaths in non-heroic), I tend to call it, as a full repair for me is getting on for 30g. That tends to be time for "let's just get you the key fragment and then high-tail it out of here with some of our dignity intact". Usually people aren't offended, and a sort of gallows humour is the order of the day.

I should really keep a set of cheap blues for such parties, like I did with my priest, so wiping doesn't cost as much.. :)

[dwarfenhelm]

lol i like the idea of a cheap set of gear to save costs. ive been trying to teach a tank a tank and hes great on one mob but put 2 into the picture and well just forget and it as the only that is in his view is the original target, i can spam raid warnings or shout down ts and it doesnt matter. he threats for 300 tps if lucky and always stacks his sunders no matter what i say and other guild members ask why can 1 tank grab 3-5k threat in 2 or 3 secs of starting a fight yet he grabs 1k if lucky

[moopy]

Well, I used to do it all the time with my priest (who dies a bit more easily than my resto shammy). She would put all her tier 2 and similar purples in the bank and pop on a blue set (tier 0 and the trimmings) for dubious-looking PUGs as it was easily enough to heal anything pre-raid.

BTW, single target tanks give me nightmares. The first time a heal crits for 7-8k it's healtanking all the way.. brrrr :)