Arena is killing WoW

[BossmanFW]

Arenas killed WoW.

The Devs sought to balance everything around the Arena, since in there you have close quarter class v class combat. The devs could watch and see how classes interacted, but then everyone started whining about how they couldn't beat class X, Y or Z. So to fix this, the devs started the nerf/buff insanity that continues to this day.

Before Arenas, and before the Burning Crusade, WoW was good. Tiered gear meant something. If I got smoked in PvP , it was because of one of two things:

1.) The person had Tiered gear
2.) The person had Battleground gear

BUT...the number of people having either 1 or 2 was fewer than now.

To get Tiered gear, you had to be a raider, especially for those upper pieces (Tier 3 for example). WoW is predominantly a casual game, so the fully tiered peole were awesome looking, feared, and few.

To get the BG gear, you had to work on it night and day, because of the diminishing returns. But what that did was balance the stuff to a degree - because if I am getting beaten by someone in High Warlord gear, he better damn well kill me since he does nothing BUT PvP. But PvP ranks meant something, and it was a grind true, but again, the number of people who could wield these great weapons or look shiny were feared, respected, and few.

Now? Everyone has PEWPEWLAZORS gear, from doing a few matches a week in the arenas. No diminishing returns in the BG rank system. AV AFKers getting their tokens and honor.

[Imraath]

I can't stand arena and the impact it has had on the game. Stupid attendance epics with outragous stats.

[Gavriel]

So hang on - gear imbalances have been removed, casual players have been given access to Epic gear and a greater reliance on player skill has been introduced ... And this is a bad thing?

[BossmanFW]

So hang on - gear imbalances have been removed, casual players have been given access to Epic gear and a greater reliance on player skill has been introduced ... And this is a bad thing?

No, Blizz just needs to find a way to get server communitys back. Right now it just seems like 90% of people are doing bgs and arena. While the rest like me are running raids. The lack of server activity out and about is just sad. I remember back when I was lvlin to 60 on my Warrior Id see this lock that always pwned me. Even after 60 Id seem him alot and we would fight.. I almost never see familiar names now unless I hit by the bg/arena.

Honestly, a lot of people used to PvE to make their character better so they could PvP. Now you can do 5 man duels for the PvP gear. Sounds good right? Not really. Where's the massiveness of a 5v5 pvp team? How about a 25v25 game?

Not only that, but quite abit of attention is being put on rushing out new raid content for the people still interested in it. Great they can go from SSC to The Eye. Then at the end of the day....respec and do arena's for gear thats used in pvp.

In separating pve and pvp gear, they essentially made it so you have to grind two sets of gear instead of one. No thanks.

[Gavriel]

No, Blizz just needs to find a way to get server communitys back. Right now it just seems like 90% of people are doing bgs and arena.

Could it be your server? Most of the people I know are still very much into raiding. We play on PvP servers and it sounds like you do too.

In separating pve and pvp gear, they essentially made it so you have to grind two sets of gear instead of one. No thanks.

I see it differently. For people who PvP exclusively there is gear specifically for them. For people who PvE exclusively there is gear specifically for them. People who fall inbetween can pick up bits and pieces (Yes, losing some set bonusses) or even use random selections to prioritize what they want. With sockets you can also customize for what you prefer doing.

Yes, in no case will you ever be as powerful at everything. You have to make choices. If you do want to do everything though, that's why Blizzard created Warlocks.

[BossmanFW]

Could it be your server? Most of the people I know are still very much into raiding. We play on PvP servers and it sounds like you do too.



I see it differently. For people who PvP exclusively there is gear specifically for them. For people who PvE exclusively there is gear specifically for them. People who fall inbetween can pick up bits and pieces (Yes, losing some set bonusses) or even use random selections to prioritize what they want. With sockets you can also customize for what you prefer doing.

Yes, in no case will you ever be as powerful at everything. You have to make choices. If you do want to do everything though, that's why Blizzard created Warlocks.

The problem I have with PVP and especially Arena gear is that they are far too easily obtainable, for example, I raid Karazhan for a month and get 1-3 pieces of gear, in that time it is possible to get a ton of Arena gear that is equal to the raid gear I have, at the rate Blizzard is going with releasing new Seasons of Arena gear, it looks like more and more will covert to Arena.

[thedirty]

I think what you are mad about is that a large majority prefer getting their gear via pvp because it is alot easier than before, and you can now pvp for pvp gear instead of being forced into a pve raid role to get the best pvp gear.

Now, people who want to pve can do just that, and people who want to just pvp have that option as well. There are still many raiding guilds running the new 10 and 25 man instances and having fun with it, while at the same time, the guys who didn't like raiding to begin with but did it to get the gear have the option of not doing it and still getting good gear because of it.

I think blizzard did a good job of making the pve gear great for pve and ok for pvp, and making the pvp gear great for pvp and ok for pve. It makes it so people who like doing the pvp stuff can do just that, while people who like to pve still have their shiny purple epics to work toward.

You said yourself that this game is based on the casual player, and with the expansion, they made it alot more casual friendly. Sure, alot of players are never going to get their hands on the high end pve gear still, but at the same time, they can get their hands on some pretty good stuff that isn't that much worse off.

I personally love the new honor system and the fact that they finally got rid of dishonorable kills, it still rewards the players who put the time in, but at the same time, the casuals who before had no chance of getting the top end pvp gear can eventually get it, it just will take months longer than the hardcore guy, and with the way that they have new arena gear every season, the hardcore guy is still going to be ahead of the curve.

[Imraath]

The problem I have with PVP and especially Arena gear is that they are far too easily obtainable, for example, I raid Karazhan for a month and get 1-3 pieces of gear, in that time it is possible to get a ton of Arena gear that is equal to the raid gear I have, at the rate Blizzard is going with releasing new Seasons of Arena gear, it looks like more and more will covert to Arena.Indeed.

Once they start handing out T4 and T5 tokens like candy, it might be a bit more 'fair'. Until then, nerf the hell out of arena points.

[NOYB]

WoW reminds me of my first Dungeons and Dragons campaigns. Commonly referred to as "Monty Haul Campaigns."

Just killed an ogre? Here's your vorpal blade.
Killed a kobold? Intelligent +5 Holy Avenger.

Tomorrow we'll be handing out Staves of Power and Rings of Wishes for cleaning the wine cellar.

The difference is that we learned from the error of just handing out powerful items. Blizzard, obviously hasn't. Instead they made things worse. GG blizz...

[Mesmer]

I'm not going to get involved in the PVP gear V PVE gear debate but I defiantly agree with the OP in regard to the current practice of balancing the game around PVP arena matches. There are a number of changes/nerfs that have been specifically targeted at arena balance i.e. pally blessing of freedom. Who can possibly argue that blessing of freedom was overpowered in PVE? I'm all for a balanced arena system but why does it have to be at the cost of PVE?

[Eid]

Maybe as a rogue I am seeing PVP gear differently, after all in PVE I do dps, in PVP I do dps. However the arenas hand out the best weapons for me (Merciless Gladiator's Slicer, Merciless Gladiator's Shanker, Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade) before the black temple are are a LOT easier to obtain. If only I can get over the fact that I suck at PVP, where as I suck slightly less at PVE!!! I can appreciate the fact that Blizz need to keep pvp rewards up there with the current 'end game' however how much of the playerbase has Black Temple on farm status, heck how much of it even has all of Karazhan on farm status???

Eid

[Shellar]

Since I began playing, I've heard that casual players have killed WoW, that hardcore players have killed WoW, that the old honor system has killed WoW, that the new honor system has killed WoW, that same-realm BG queues have killed WoW, that the cross-realm BGs have killed WoW, that 40-man raids have killed WoW, that 25-man raids have killed WoW... In addition, WoW has been simultaneously killed by generally increasing complexity of the game, by generally increasing simplicity of the game, by emphasis on PvE content, by emphasis on PvP content, by exploiters, by anti-exploit measures, by balancing the game around Arenas, by leaving Arenas unbalanced, by Blizzard catering to Alliance players, by Blizzard catering to Horde players, by the lack of innovation, by the overabundance of innovation, by every single nerf ever introduced, and by every single buff ever introduced.

Since WoW is still going strong, I am forced to conclude that it is, in fact, immortal.
Which is good, given how many things are trying to kill it.

[clevins]

This isn't a casual vs raider issue. But the weapons, at least, are vastly overpowered. I'm a 70 rogue who's in Karazhan most weeks. Ive been VERY lucky and had Malchezeen (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/28768/malchazeen) and Emerald Ripper (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/28524/emerald-ripper) drop for me. Now, we basically have to clear an entire 10 man raid instances to get Malchezeen since it's a Prince drop... and the Ripper is a low % drop from Moroes. They are very good weapons... and they SUCK in contrast to the Arena weapons. I mean, one is a 91dps dagger, the other an 87.5 dps dagger.... but the Arena weapons are 98dps!! The Heartrazor (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/29962/heartrazor) that drops off Solarian in The Eye should be a great weapon... it's meh in comparison to a weapon that takes about an hour a week to get.

Sorry, but that's unbalanced. If the weapons were 85-90dps, I'd be OK with that... it would allow folks who don't raid or run heroics to get great weapons (though why you need a 90dps weapon when you don't raid or run heroics is puzzling, but hey...). But to have 98dps weapons that outclass anything short of the Black Temple? and to be able to get them in 3-4 months by spending an hour a week? Come on, if you feel that's balanced you're ignoring reality

[kcma]

This isn't a casual vs raider issue. But the weapons, at least, are vastly overpowered. I'm a 70 rogue who's in Karazhan most weeks. Ive been VERY lucky and had Malchezeen (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/28768/malchazeen) and Emerald Ripper (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/28524/emerald-ripper) drop for me. Now, we basically have to clear an entire 10 man raid instances to get Malchezeen since it's a Prince drop... and the Ripper is a low % drop from Moroes. They are very good weapons... and they SUCK in contrast to the Arena weapons. I mean, one is a 91dps dagger, the other an 87.5 dps dagger.... but the Arena weapons are 98dps!! The Heartrazor (http://wowdigger.com/item/view/29962/heartrazor) that drops off Solarian in The Eye should be a great weapon... it's meh in comparison to a weapon that takes about an hour a week to get.

Sorry, but that's unbalanced. If the weapons were 85-90dps, I'd be OK with that... it would allow folks who don't raid or run heroics to get great weapons (though why you need a 90dps weapon when you don't raid or run heroics is puzzling, but hey...). But to have 98dps weapons that outclass anything short of the Black Temple? and to be able to get them in 3-4 months by spending an hour a week? Come on, if you feel that's balanced you're ignoring reality

QQ?

like you gave a poopy when RAID drops kicked PVP rewards... and ppl who can't RAID complain about weapon imbalance. you don't exactly grind out best pvp gear in a few days either buddy. get over it.

[Aerath]

Have to agree with the general consensus.

The armour distinction is made well enough. Resilience does very little outside of Arenas (possibly excluding Druid tanks) and loads of stamina are nice but don't help you kill anything faster.

Weapons that are equal to what might well be beyond what has even been reached on a server (BT isn't a given for quite some servers) in DPS and tasty stats is just stupendous.

I would have no problems with the s1 weapons being equal to Karazhan/Gruul and the S2 weapons being equal to SSC. You'd have heard no complaints from people as it still would've been an upgrade (from 88 DPS to 90 DPS still is nothing to sneeze at). But the Arena weapons currently blow everything out of the water unless you're actually in something like Nihilum, D&T or one of those other top end raid guilds.

QQ?

like you gave a poopy when RAID drops kicked PVP rewards... and ppl who can't RAID complain about weapon imbalance. you don't exactly grind out best pvp gear in a few days either buddy. get over it.

Not entirely true kcma.

3 hours of Arena games in a 5v5 will get you an Epic weapon that outdoes anything you'll get until Black Temple. Show me a guild that gets through Karazhan/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK and then BT in 3 hours and where you are guaranteed a drop and I'll show you a private server.

[kcma]

Not entirely true kcma.

3 hours of Arena games in a 5v5 will get you an Epic weapon that outdoes anything you'll get until Black Temple. Show me a guild that gets through Karazhan/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK and then BT in 3 hours and where you are guaranteed a drop and I'll show you a private server.

how would i know i'm lvl 14 :)

but that doesnt change what i said when pvp reward isn't all that... and any random epic from raid encounters kick pvp gear's ass... RAIDers just say, "QQ, no one gives a poopy... dont like PvP gear? RAID!"

and now, it can be reversed, "QQ, no one gives a poopy... dont like RAID gear? go arena!" :D do i sound vindictive and vengeful? maybe... or maybe that's just me being bitter about working 12-14 hours everyday being mentally and physically exhuasted :D

[moopy]

Since WoW is still going strong, I am forced to conclude that it is, in fact, immortal.
Which is good, given how many things are trying to kill it.

Now I have that damned Queen song in my head. /doom

[Icefrost]

but that doesnt change what i said when pvp reward isn't all that... and any random epic from raid encounters kick pvp gear's ass... RAIDers just say, "QQ, no one gives a poopy... dont like PvP gear? RAID!"

and now, it can be reversed, "QQ, no one gives a poopy... dont like RAID gear? go arena!" :D do i sound vindictive and vengeful? maybe...
While I don't know any numbers about it, I agree with kcma here. In addition to this, most of who are complaining about the arena gear here seem to be those classes that are classified as "DPS" for PvE. If you were playing, say, a druid or a shaman, would you go PvP with gear that is loaded with nothing but healing for your resto spec? Or armor, stamina and stuff like that for bear tanking?
There are classes in the game who still have their PvP and PvE gear completely separate from each other.
Sure you can talk all day about how they are allowed to raid in those DPS roles too these days, but may I suggest you try getting there yourself before you start talking about it like it was easy.

Oh well, its just basic human nature to focus on whining about something you don't have rather than enjoying something you do have.

[Dobablo]

If I was looking to gear up my alts for PvE, I'd take quest and instance blues over most PvP gear. The addition of resilience and penetration has done a good job into seperating the PvP and PvE gear for casters.

[Twoflower]

blizz did a good job whit separating PvP and PvE.

only problem i see whit this is the PvP'ers in theyr arena gear who think that they can raid just aswell. There is just no way that you can phewphewlaser as much as someone in PvE gear. ( except for fury warriors and rogues weapons. ALl other arena items are more or less useless for PvE. )

[Jojin]

3 hours of Arena games in a 5v5 will get you an Epic weapon

A weapon cost's between 2600 and 3800 points. You won't get that many point's with 3 hours of play.

[moopy]

only problem i see whit this is the PvP'ers in theyr arena gear who think that they can raid just aswell. There is just no way that you can phewphewlaser as much as someone in PvE gear. ( except for fury warriors and rogues weapons. ALl other arena items are more or less useless for PvE. )

The gladiator crossbow does very nicely in raids, also.

[Twoflower]

oh, didnt know that ^^ have not realy seen this item at all to be honest. everyone seems to use the bow of the prince.

[Stigg]

blizz did a good job whit separating PvP and PvE.

only problem i see whit this is the PvP'ers in theyr arena gear who think that they can raid just aswell. There is just no way that you can phewphewlaser as much as someone in PvE gear. ( except for fury warriors and rogues weapons. ALl other arena items are more or less useless for PvE. )

And the Merciless DPS caster sword.


A weapon cost's between 2600 and 3800 points. You won't get that many point's with 3 hours of play.
Why not? 10 games takes...30 minutes? With a 5v5 rating of 1600, you get 492 points. 6 weeks at 492 points = 2952 points. Ok fine. 3.5 hours or a rating of 1615.

[moopy]

oh, didnt know that ^^ have not realy seen this item at all to be honest. everyone seems to use the bow of the prince.

Gladiator's Heavy Crossbow
Binds when picked up
Crossbow
204 - 307 Damage Speed 3.10
(82.4 damage per second)
+15 Stamina
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 12 (0.5%).
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12 (0.3%).
Equip: Increases ranged attack power by 26.
Item Level 123

Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix
Binds when picked up
Ranged Bow
169 - 314 Damage Speed 2.90
(83.3 damage per second)
+19 Agility
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 34.
Item Level 125

It's not a million miles away- just under the prince's bow, but better than the one from Attumen, or the gun from Big Bag Wolf.

[rgirty]

I don't arena, but i believe arena is great for wow.

The pvp aspect is why a lot of people log in.

[xDarkDrifterx]

I think that they are trying to balance it all out for everytype of player ie: raiders vs pvpers so it makes sense that the top items from arena would be kick ass.

but using stiggs point value below.

Why not? 10 games takes...30 minutes? With a 5v5 rating of 1600, you get 492 points. 6 weeks at 492 points = 2952 points. Ok fine. 3.5 hours or a rating of 1615.

it would take me 7.62 weeks to get my
Merciless Gladiator's Crossbow of the Phoenix
I've been doing arena everyweek for about a month now . . . and I still have zero arena pieces.

But that's with a 1600 . . . my teams geared as they are atm - receive anywhere from a 1400-1525ish rating - which using a medium of something like 1450 as a base - it would take me like 9-11 weeks to get 1 item . .yes that item is the most coslty but the other pieces are very expensive as well.

So 2 months of "3 hours a day" equals my arena bow . .

You can get a bow from Kara that almost equals that bow in one evening so in my perspective the arena bow should be better as I put more time and effort into getting it then running Kara for a day or two . . .

[Jojin]

Why not? 10 games takes...30 minutes? With a 5v5 rating of 1600, you get 492 points. 6 weeks at 492 points = 2952 points. Ok fine. 3.5 hours or a rating of 1615.


My wording was kind of wrong. It stills takes quite a long time before you get a compleet set. You won't see anyone running in full gladiater gear faster then raiders running in tier gear. So it evens out. The way you get it in the arena is just more casual and to get a 1600 or higher score you need to be pretty good. Arena's are fairly competitive.

Edit:

Isn't raiding about defeating big enemies and recieving the gear to defeat even bigger enemies? instead of just a way of recieving epics. So where from comes this jealousy for the PVP epics? it's a total different thing and so be it that it's slightly better at some point's most of the the time PVE gear better for the PVE parts and PVP gear is better suited for PVP.

[Vulcanz]

the only problem with arena i think is, it made WoW more like guild wars..thats it.

[rgirty]

I think they are pumping more effort/time into arena and pvp to battle upcoming titles like wh.

[DrOsmius]

Since I began playing, I've heard that casual players have killed WoW, that hardcore players have killed WoW, that the old honor system has killed WoW, that the new honor system has killed WoW, that same-realm BG queues have killed WoW, that the cross-realm BGs have killed WoW, that 40-man raids have killed WoW, that 25-man raids have killed WoW... In addition, WoW has been simultaneously killed by generally increasing complexity of the game, by generally increasing simplicity of the game, by emphasis on PvE content, by emphasis on PvP content, by exploiters, by anti-exploit measures, by balancing the game around Arenas, by leaving Arenas unbalanced, by Blizzard catering to Alliance players, by Blizzard catering to Horde players, by the lack of innovation, by the overabundance of innovation, by every single nerf ever introduced, and by every single buff ever introduced.

Since WoW is still going strong, I am forced to conclude that it is, in fact, immortal.
Which is good, given how many things are trying to kill it.

You are in danger of surpassing moopy as my favorite poster with this.

[JangBogo]

Since I began playing, I've heard that casual players have killed WoW, that hardcore players have killed WoW, that the old honor system has killed WoW, that the new honor system has killed WoW, that same-realm BG queues have killed WoW, that the cross-realm BGs have killed WoW, that 40-man raids have killed WoW, that 25-man raids have killed WoW... In addition, WoW has been simultaneously killed by generally increasing complexity of the game, by generally increasing simplicity of the game, by emphasis on PvE content, by emphasis on PvP content, by exploiters, by anti-exploit measures, by balancing the game around Arenas, by leaving Arenas unbalanced, by Blizzard catering to Alliance players, by Blizzard catering to Horde players, by the lack of innovation, by the overabundance of innovation, by every single nerf ever introduced, and by every single buff ever introduced.

Since WoW is still going strong, I am forced to conclude that it is, in fact, immortal.
Which is good, given how many things are trying to kill it.

QFT. Best post EVER! :thumbsup:

Sad, but true and incredibly hilarious to boot.

[clevins]

QQ?

like you gave a poopy when RAID drops kicked PVP rewards... and ppl who can't RAID complain about weapon imbalance. you don't exactly grind out best pvp gear in a few days either buddy. get over it.

Yes, you DO grind out these weapons in a few days. Try connecting the brain before opening the mouth kcma....

The Arena OH sword or dagger are better than anything you'll get throuth SSC/The Eye. They cost 1125 arena points. If you just play 2v2 and suck (1300ish rating) you'll get about 200 points per week. In 6 weeks, you'll have that weapon.

Yeah, that's 6 calendar weeks.... but you only need to play 10 matches to get points. That will take maybe an hour of actual time including waiting in queue. And... you can LOSE all of the matchs and get points. So... you want to tell me that it's balanced? That for showing up for 6 hours and sucking, someone gets an OH that's better than any I can get for dozens of hours of effort??

And, as I said and some people *cough kcma* didn't read the 90dps weapons like the S1 rewards are OK... still a bit OP for the effort, but OK. But the S2 weapons are among the best weapons in the game. What are they going to do for S3? make them 110dps? and S4?? By starting out so high, they've boxed themselves in...


but that doesnt change what i said when pvp reward isn't all that... and any random epic from raid encounters kick pvp gear's ass...

I don't arena, but i believe arena is great for wow.


WTF? Guys, everyone's entitled to an opinion, but try actually knowing what you're talking about. These aren't the only comments above that are just ignorant of the impact of Arena. Look, I LIKE the Arena format.... but in some respects it IS very unbalanced. I gave actually examples above... instead of just saying "me love it" try actually using, you know, facts and logic.

[rgirty]

Yes, you DO grind out these weapons in a few days. Try connecting the brain before opening the mouth kcma....

The Arena OH sword or dagger are better than anything you'll get throuth SSC/The Eye. They cost 1125 arena points. If you just play 2v2 and suck (1300ish rating) you'll get about 200 points per week. In 6 weeks, you'll have that weapon.

Yeah, that's 6 calendar weeks.... but you only need to play 10 matches to get points. That will take maybe an hour of actual time including waiting in queue. And... you can LOSE all of the matchs and get points. So... you want to tell me that it's balanced? That for showing up for 6 hours and sucking, someone gets an OH that's better than any I can get for dozens of hours of effort??

And, as I said and some people *cough kcma* didn't read the 90dps weapons like the S1 rewards are OK... still a bit OP for the effort, but OK. But the S2 weapons are among the best weapons in the game. What are they going to do for S3? make them 110dps? and S4?? By starting out so high, they've boxed themselves in...

This is why people who play simply to mouse over the gear on their char screen often quit the game or seem to enjoy their playtime less.

People who play to see new content, enjoy the game and playing with friends rather than "ZOMG FAT LEWTS" often have a better time.

I've seen a lot of posts with raider elitism like the one above. The solution is fairly simple, make your own arena team and get the items as well.

You aren't forced to either raid, or do arena. You can do both and get item for yourself.

[clevins]

rigirty... you admit above you don't know anything about Arena... yet here you are. You're just trotting out the old asinine raider elitism comments...

I'm not actually loot obsessed... I liek getting better gear since it lets me get further, but it's not WHY I play. However... why do people farm instances? Is it to see the content? Of course not - it's for the gear. So get off your high horse and actually reply to the arguments I made above.

If you actually read my post, you'll notice that I have no issue with Arena giving people stuff comparable to Kara gear... my issue is that, for very little effort and with very little skill (you can lose every match and still get points), you can get weapons that are unmatched until you hit Hyjal/Black Temple. So.. a dozen or two hours of meh effort gives you gear as good as people who have put in hundreds of hours of effort with a 9 or 24 others?

Now, instead of overlooking what I've said and questioning my character, why don't you actually address that point?

[rgirty]

rigirty... you admit above you don't know anything about Arena... yet here you are. You're just trotting out the old asinine raider elitism comments...

I'm not actually loot obsessed... I liek getting better gear since it lets me get further, but it's not WHY I play. However... why do people farm instances? Is it to see the content? Of course not - it's for the gear. So get off your high horse and actually reply to the arguments I made above.

If you actually read my post, you'll notice that I have no issue with Arena giving people stuff comparable to Kara gear... my issue is that, for very little effort and with very little skill (you can lose every match and still get points), you can get weapons that are match nowhere short of Black Temple.

Now, instead of overlooking what I've said and questioning my character, why don't you actually address that point?

/flame shield on!111

Here is the reality.

A large portion of people paying to play this game are casual.

They are not hardcore raiders.

They need a reason to log in, they need like they can progress..get better gear and see more content in the game.

Blizzard has created more things for that player since 2.0.

Changes in the honor system, it is now cumulative instead of the insane grind for titles that we had before.

Daily quests.

More BOP epic profession items that are on par with what raiders see in dungeons.

Arena.

Each of these allows you to devote a little bit of time each day/week and still accomplish the advancement of your char. This allows the casual player to feel that sense of actually "getting somewhere".

Raiders are rallying against this and often make posts like you have made. That the gear here is too easily obtained compared to the pve counterparts.

The thing that makes me /boggle is why are raiders or anyone upset that good gear is easier to get? Why not get those arena pieces and use them in PvE content to push your guild toward new areas, new bosses and new encounters?

As far as farming instances, in TBC there are alternatives to nearly every piece of gear. For example, a lot of pieces that are gained through heroic badges have counterparts that are rep rewards or kara drops.

This is also made to suit the casual player. He might have time for a heroic now and then and actually get some gear out of it.


That is how things are, now i'll explain why.

The "game" as everyone calls it is simply a business. The business is trying to keep the majority if the customer base happy. That is why you see things happening like they are.

Why do you think we are getting a new 10 man that resets every few days and is slightly harder than kara? It is for the casual guilds that won't get to 25 man content anytime soon.

Blizzard has observed SoE and other failed MMO'S. They know every customer does not have 40-70 hours a week to play and or raid. They are trying to give back to their customer base by giving each player a way to accomplish something in the game.

Raiders come along and say, "tailored gear is too good" "daily quests suck, we need a way to grind to exalted" "arena gear is op, and too easy" which honestly sounds just like the talks most parents gave their kids when they started school.

It started something like...back in my day, i had to walk uphill..etc etc..

example:

you can get weapons that are unmatched until you hit Hyjal/Black Temple. So.. a dozen or two hours of meh effort gives you gear as good as people who have put in hundreds of hours of effort with a 9 or 24 others?

If those answers aren't good enough for you, pose more questions please. It is a slow day for me here at work and I have little to do other than reply or post here on these forums.

[Pongle]

Now? Everyone has PEWPEWLAZORS gear, from doing a few matches a week in the arenas. No diminishing returns in the BG rank system. AV AFKers getting their tokens and honor.

Not really.

You need to be *good* to get truly good arena gear, time is a trivial factor, sure, but you can't suck your way to 5/5 merciless gladiator with weapons, wand slots etc.

And to anyone that wants to tell me that it's harder to get t4 / some t5 than hold an 1800 rating: you need to transfer to BG9, your battlegroup sucks if it's easier to hold that rating than kill void reaver.

[Icefrost]

I'm not actually loot obsessed... What else do you expect people to think when you make such a long post about exact numbers and times it takes to get that gear?
you can lose every match and still get pointsWhich is in fact only fair since the opponent team is always smarter than any raidboss you've ever seen so there is no "on farm" status here that gets you a win 90% of the time. And you can sometimes end up against near unbeatable matchups thanks to your and your teammate's class choice.

Now, instead of overlooking what I've said and questioning my character, why don't you actually address that point?Instead of continuing on this "raiders are always superior and always deserve the best" -line, you might want to start listening too. And how do I say that? Well I just happened to note that most of you complainers in this thread seem to be focusing on the power of the arena gear instead of the 'short' time it takes to get, so it keeps me thinking that you'd rather see it nerfed instead of the time so you don't have to rant about it later on either.

[Pongle]

But to have 98dps weapons that outclass anything short of the Black Temple? and to be able to get them in 3-4 months by spending an hour a week? Come on, if you feel that's balanced you're ignoring reality

Congratulations on ignoring everything but the weapons you get from raiding.

Fact is arena gear MUST be on par with the current progression raid level gear so that players who do not raid can compete in it (which, like it or not, is what blizzard wants, because they want highly competitive play).


3 hours of Arena games in a 5v5 will get you an Epic weapon that outdoes anything you'll get until Black Temple. Show me a guild that gets through Karazhan/Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK and then BT in 3 hours and where you are guaranteed a drop and I'll show you a private server.

Way to completely ignore the many other drops besides weapons in a PvE raid. Some people in here need a reality check.

[clevins]

Hmmm so I'm supposed to talk about Arena loot without actually talking about the loot? Um... What??

I gave actual examples because THAT'S WHAT YOU DO when building an argument. You provide facts that you feel support your argument and then you make the argument. You, on the other hand, seem to fall into that lazy 'let's attack the poster' group.

Instead of continuing on this "raiders are always superior and always deserve the best" -line, you might want to start listening too. And how do I say that? Well I just happened to note that most of you complainers in this thread seem to be focusing on the power of the arena gear instead of the 'short' time it takes to get, so it keeps me thinking that you'd rather see it nerfed instead of the time so you don't have to rant about it later on either.

well, nerfing would be fine, but would likely cause a huge outcry. Personally I'd be fine with simply reshaping how points are awarded... If you're a top arena team, rewards flow pretty fast. But the people who show up, put in 10 matches, fairly suck..? They get rewards MUCH more slowly. A 2v2 team gets about 200 points per week even if they suck. How about nerfing that to, say, 50? If you're decent (1500ish rating) you get 150 or so... if you're above average (>1500) the rewards start to escalate. Reward being good, not just showing up.

Look, this should work like crafting. You can craft some meh gear... but if you want to craft great gear, you have to skill all the way to 375 (or very close), you have to spend serious time/money to do that, you likely need Primal Nethers for the mats - meaning you need to run heroics - and you might need to farm an instance for a rare recipe drop. So, yeah, you get better than T4 gear... but you've put in a lot of effort. It's not perfect, but this system lets people who can't or won't raid get outstanding gear by simply putting in a lot of effort into the game in a different way. My problem with Arena weapons isn't so much that they are excellent, but that you can get them for very little effort with little skill.

Congratulations on ignoring everything but the weapons you get from raiding.

Well, I'm a rogue.. :) And the armor is PvP specific... I don't have an issue with it. But the weapons are not - damage is damage.

Fact is arena gear MUST be on par with the current progression raid level gear so that players who do not raid can compete in it (which, like it or not, is what blizzard wants, because they want highly competitive play).

Actually there are other ways Blizz could deal with this - nerf the raid weapon stats inside of the arena, nerf the Arena weapon stats outside of Arena being two obvious ways. Either would match raid and arena weapons evenly without making Arena weapons so vastly OP in the non-Arena world.


Way to completely ignore the many other drops besides weapons in a PvE raid. Some people in here need a reality check.

Ah yes, another person who has to insult to make a point... Yes, there are other drops in a raid... I have several. But Blizz has done a good job differentiating the armor from raids and Arena... So there's no real issue there. I chose to talk about where I feel there IS an issue.

[rgirty]

Hmmm so I'm supposed to talk about Arena loot without actually talking about the loot? Um... What??

I gave actual examples because THAT'S WHAT YOU DO when building an argument. You provide facts that you feel support your argument and then you make the argument. You, on the other hand, seem to fall into that lazy 'let's attack the poster' group.



well, nerfing would be fine, but would likely cause a huge outcry. Personally I'd be fine with simply reshaping how points are awarded... If you're a top arena team, rewards flow pretty fast. But the people who show up, put in 10 matches, fairly suck..? They get rewards MUCH more slowly. A 2v2 team gets about 200 points per week even if they suck. How about nerfing that to, say, 50? If you're decent (1500ish rating) you get 150 or so... if you're above average (>1500) the rewards start to escalate. Reward being good, not just showing up.

Look, this should work like crafting. You can craft some meh gear... but if you want to craft great gear, you have to skill all the way to 375 (or very close), you have to spend serious time/money to do that, you likely need Primal Nethers for the mats - meaning you need to run heroics - and you might need to farm an instance for a rare recipe drop. So, yeah, you get better than T4 gear... but you've put in a lot of effort. It's not perfect, but this system lets people who can't or won't raid get outstanding gear by simply putting in a lot of effort into the game in a different way. My problem with Arena weapons isn't so much that they are excellent, but that you can get them for very little effort with little skill.

It does not take 6 weeks to get an entire set of epic tailored gear that is arguably on par with tier 5.

If you are going to lump arena rewards in, you should also lump in quest rewards.

For example, there are many quest rewards that are on par with gear that drops in 5 man instances.

A person runs this 5 man instance many times (just like a raid farms content) he finally gets the drop on teh 10th run or 30 hours /played. While the person who did the quest received the item in a very short time. There are quite a few items like this in the game.

Are you going to say quest rewards need nerfed as well because they require little effort?

Surely you see that both ends of the spectrum must be balanced. You are just asking that people spend more time at the keyboard as raiders must do.

You want time spent at the keyboard to = loot.

The business model won't work that way, a large majority of players would see no reason to log on and begin 8 or 12 week processes to gain a single piece of gear.

Also, leveling tailoring is trivial. I have written many guides on it..it does not take near as much time as the arena rewards.

You don't need nethers, you simply need a crafter with a nether from the trade channel.

Why don't you respond to what I've been saying (i'm not going to give you a low blow as you did to me about horses) I would like to know what you think about what I'm saying here.

[xDarkDrifterx]

Yes, you DO grind out these weapons in a few days. Try connecting the brain before opening the mouth kcma....

The Arena OH sword or dagger are better than anything you'll get throuth SSC/The Eye. They cost 1125 arena points. If you just play 2v2 and suck (1300ish rating) you'll get about 200 points per week. In 6 weeks, you'll have that weapon.

:ponder:

Just pointing this out . . . .

So, is it a few days or a few weeks? :evil:
sarcasm ftw

:wink:

[rgirty]

:ponder:

Just pointing this out . . . .

So, is it a few days or a few weeks? :evil:
sarcasm ftw

:wink:

/played days

/real time passed weeks

play xx hours a week get xx points a week, accumulates over time.

[xDarkDrifterx]

/played days

/real time passed weeks

play xx hours a week get xx points a week, accumulates over time.

thanks bro but I knew the answer :wink: . . .

sarcasm ftw

:thumbsup: :grin:

[rgirty]

missed the small text :D

[Rehsa]

From what i understand in this thread.

The opener wants:
The more time you play ingame, the better your rewards should be.

Thus:
if I spend 2 real life days straight = 48 hours worth of playing, my gear should be better than someone who spends 1 hour a week, for 6-12 weeks to get something equal or better.

here's where the arguement fails.

You play for a weekend raiding, or 1 or 2 weeks worth of raiding, since you have the time to raid to get the gear. great, you now have a weapon that is 10dps less than what is in the arena. You spent 30-50 hours of playtime in 2 weeks span to get it. Feel proud. You are able to use this weapon for a LONG time before i will ever get something even close to it.

8 weeks later, i got my arena weapon, which is better than you. You complain my weapon is better because you spent a good 20-40 hours of gametime more than me.

YOU HAD YOUR WEAPON WAY BEFORE ME!!! you didn't want to spend the hour a week for 8 weeks to get it, you wanted something good, as soon as you could, which raiding will do if you're in a raiding guild and you have the time. You will maybe see me once in a blue moon, thus you should ignore me ingame and not worry about it.

-----------

I have 1-2 hours a day for WoW if i'm lucky. I haven't even been able to get keyed for anything yet, i'd like to, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. I want to raid as well, but my gear sucks, and i can't get into a raid group, none the less have time to raid.

What can I do to want to keep playing? well, i want to have a sense of progression. I do daily quests if I can get online, and play BG or 2, and spend some time in the arena. After MANY weeks, my gear get's upgraded. It might be better than yours. The difference is minimal. My gear is better than yours, yours gets used a lot more often than mine. I want to feel powerful for the short time i'm on. You've gotten to feel powerful for the past 8 weeks while i've been at work 70 hours a week to make ends meet.

Blizzard gave me a way to feel good about playing their game.

-----------------

If you're so pissed that i can get arena and BG rewards that equal your raiding... here's a thought.

DO THE ARENA YOURSELF AND QUIT COMPLAINING. YOU'RE SAYING IT'S UNFAIR AND ONLY TAKES LITTLE EFFORT. YOU HAVE TIME IN YOUR SCHEDULE TO ARENA IF YOU HAVE TIME TO RAID.

You will have many more choices in gear to choose form than I ever will unless i win the lottery and can spend a ton of time on the game. If it takes me 3-6 months to get all the gear for a casual player, that's 3-6 months i keep playing the game. If i can only get better gear by spending 20-50 hours a week in WoW, then there's no point in me playing if I can't seem to progress anymore.

-------------

I only have one way to get endgame gear, arena, which is all i have TIME for.

You have time to RAID to get gear FASTER and you have time for arena. You have 2 ways to get endgame gear, and you have more time to play than me so you WILL get your gear WAY before i do and put it to use to see more content in the game I wish i could see, but don't have the time for.

Be glad you have time to raid. I'm glad i can stand up to someone who has time to raid every once in a while.

I hate when people with max gear go gank people without it, now i might have a chance to depend myself. You can still kill me, but now you have a little risk to yourself because i'm not a push over, it'll take SOME effort. You should still kill me, because you have the time in the world to master your class.

[Shadowpup]

Well, I couldn't have said it much better than that...

[clevins]

actually his argument is fallacious. It assumes that the weapons in raids drop predictable... but someone may raid for weeks or even months before seeing the weapons they want and even then they might lose the roll or not have the DKP to get that item. So raiders don't necessarily have the weapons that the want any sooner. In fact, they may have them later than the Arena weapons. Aside from the power of the weapons, one major advantage of Arena is the predictability of them.

Also, you're NOT going to get in Kara and beyond if you suck... people just are not going to take a rogue that's 6th on the meters or a tank that can't hold aggro. But you CAN suck at Arena and still get amazing rewards, almost as fast as someone who's very good in Arena. There's not a very wide range of points awarded between someone on a 2200 rated team and someone on a 1300 rated team who just shows up for 10 matches and loses 6 or 7 of them.

Again, I don't have an issue with Arena weapons being roughly equivalent to a Kara piece... I *do* have an issue with them being better than anything available before the Black Temple. The Season 1 weapons were fine... the S2 weapons set a dangerous precedent - moving from 90 to 98 dps... how does Blizz do S3 and S4? Are the weapons going to be 120dps? where, precisely DOES this become unbalanced??

People accuse raiders of being loot whores... but aren't the people who want T5 equivalent gear for little investment the real loot whores? I mean, come on, you don't need that level of gear to quest in SMV or grind in Netherstorm. So, precisely WHY do you want it? Could it be... nah....

To me what Blizz should strive for in post-70 rewards is much like the leveling process. You need a certain amount of XP to level... HOW you do this is up to you.. grind, quest, instance... finish one zone before skipping to the next or explore all over. But there's not a way to just go do some activity and skip to 70 (well... aside from PL services which are against the TOS). Sure, offer people various ways to get to the same basic place... but they effort (not necessarily the time) for the rewards should be similar.

[YamahaGuy]

Too many posts sound like raiding gear takes forever and PVP gear is so easy.

Our new tanks been in the guild one week.

In one weeks time, we got him a kings defender, gauntlets off maiden, warbringer helm, shoulders off netherspite.

4 things one week -.- YES it is PVE gear and not orientated for PVP in any way, but its only one example... theres DPS and caster gear in raiding too that ARE decent in PVP.

Our new mage got 3 items in the week as well; a ring, a cape and the trial fire trousers.

Every 25 man badge boss drops 2 badges as well. One trip to gruuls is two pants two shoulders; if you have two kara groups thats 2 gloves and 2 helms for the week as well, plus anything aqquired between while getting them.

And the best part is

For half of the week I can respec and go play BG games and get some DPS gear on top of my tanking gear. =) its an OPTION. I like options.

[cyks]

There's not a very wide range of points awarded between someone on a 2200 rated team and someone on a 1300 rated team who just shows up for 10 matches and loses 6 or 7 of them.

5v5 2200 rating = 1202 points/ week
5v5 1300 rating = 300 points/ week

You were saying?

[Rehsa]

actually his argument is fallacious. It assumes that the weapons in raids drop predictable... but someone may raid for weeks or even months before seeing the weapons they want and even then they might lose the roll or not have the DKP to get that item. So raiders don't necessarily have the weapons that the want any sooner. In fact, they may have them later than the Arena weapons. Aside from the power of the weapons, one major advantage of Arena is the predictability of them.

Ok, so you didn't get your weapon in the 8 weeks it took to get my arena weapon. You could have done arena AND raid and at least gotten the arena weapon before me. PLUS you got a bunch of other gear from raiding and most likely have a better PvP arena rating so you should be able to get other arena gear faster than me anyways. If you don't get any gear from raiding in an 8 week period, then I call BS, you would have gotten something.

you will still get more gear faster than I and get to use it, like i said before, i only get on every so often, and you WONT see me like ever so you shouldn't even worry about me at all or casual players for the most part.

[kcma]

I hate when people with max gear go gank people without it, now i might have a chance to depend myself. You can still kill me, but now you have a little risk to yourself because i'm not a push over, it'll take SOME effort. You should still kill me, because you have the time in the world to master your class.

that's why i say QQ :) it's not even about the gear he has. it's about how other ppl shouldn't have better gear.

[clevins]

kcma - you haven't contributed one useful point to this discussion. All you can do is namecall. Go back to the AH and hoard some gold, child.

As I've said REPEATEDLY I have NO repeat ZERO issue with the Arena weapons being on par with Kara loot. What I don't see, and DO feel is unbalanced, is the serious jump in power that they took in Season 2.

For all of the counter arguments above, none have you have replied to this point. No, loot isn't the entire point of raids... but it's disappointing to get loot off and end boss and think "meh, I could get better sucking in Arena for a few weeks."

And, before you call me a loot whore (again) tell me why a casual who will never face a ?? raid boss even needs 98dps weapons equivalent to Hyjal/BT rewards. What are you doing there the 91 dps Season 1 weapons aren't good enough for?

Is Arena killing Wow? Nah. But for some classes at least, it's an odd balance and I can't see where it's going. What will season 3 weapons look like? Season 4? How does Blizz make the upcoming season rewards worth fighting for without entirely unbalancing things and making the PvE rewards completely meaningless?

Oh and on the arena rating thing? um... oops :)

[Rehsa]

kcma - you haven't contributed one useful point to this discussion. All you can do is namecall. Go back to the AH and hoard some gold, child.

As I've said REPEATEDLY I have NO repeat ZERO issue with the Arena weapons being on par with Kara loot. What I don't see, and DO feel is unbalanced, is the serious jump in power that they took in Season 2.

For all of the counter arguments above, none have you have replied to this point. No, loot isn't the entire point of raids... but it's disappointing to get loot off and end boss and think "meh, I could get better sucking in Arena for a few weeks."

And, before you call me a loot whore (again) tell me why a casual who will never face a ?? raid boss even needs 98dps weapons equivalent to Hyjal/BT rewards. What are you doing there the 91 dps Season 1 weapons aren't good enough for?

Is Arena killing Wow? Nah. But for some classes at least, it's an odd balance and I can't see where it's going. What will season 3 weapons look like? Season 4? How does Blizz make the upcoming season rewards worth fighting for without entirely unbalancing things and making the PvE rewards completely meaningless?

Oh and on the arena rating thing? um... oops :)

Well, as for the upgrade in weapons better than BT etc... complain to blizzard. They will most likely end up buffing it once a lot of people start to head into the harder raids, it's something i'm sure they looked over on the arena side of things and that someone has been trying to figure out how to balance it but it just takes some time. They wont nerf the arena gear, too many people would complain, so i'm sure they're going to buff the raid gear at some point when more people get to that point.

One reason why someone MIGHT need a 98dps weapon for PvP, is because with all the resilance and the stamina on all the gear criting is useless. I don't know, it's just a thought.

------------

kcma - i may hate it when it happens, but i love world PvP, it's a rush. And at least now i'm not a push over and can at least dish out something back, makes it more fun. am I QQing all that much, not really. If i didn't like the rush or anything that came along with PvP, then i wouldn't be on a PvP server. Sure i may hate it that someone with no life with the best gear in the game beats on me when i have greens and can't survive, but i strive for the encounter and chance I may win, i just can put up an even better fight as a casual now though.

[clevins]

One reason why someone MIGHT need a 98dps weapon for PvP, is because with all the resilance and the stamina on all the gear criting is useless. I don't know, it's just a thought.



Good point. It does balance things out between top PvE folks and those who can't raid. The issue is the effect that having these weapons has in PvE.

The easiest thing for Blizz to do would be to normalize weapons within Arena, e.g. make S1 weapons equivalent to Kara, S2 to SSC/Eye, etc *within* Arena. Outside of Arena, all Arena weapons are equivalent to Kara level weapons.

[kcma]

rehsa: i love world pvp more than anything else in the game. really that's the only reason i play the game now. i dont raid and i dont do arena. i'm just leveling chars from scratch with nothing and repeating that with different class on different realms. i dont even mind dying and losing that to me is part of the charm in pvp. unregulated and unrestrained player killing players.

it's just annoying when ppl who does nothing but raid whines and cry about how they put so much hours into wow and they deserve to have gears that no one else can get unless they put in just as much time as they do. BS. you raid because that aspect of the game is fun. who cares how much DPS your gear comes in?

does it stop your progression in raiding? no. so go back and raid with whatever gear you have and take whatever drop you get. clevin says he has no issue with arena gear being on par with whatever? that's all BS. what arena gear yields has no effect on his enjoying the activity of raiding with his guildies. zero affect. he just doesn't want someone else spending less time getting gear that he spend so much time on.

has nothing with balance, or fairness at all. it's just. if i spend x hours getting y gear. everyone else must put in that same x hours for equavalent gear. it's selfish and that's what kills the fun in the game.

it's so easy to get arena gear huh clevin? go hit up the arena then! oh you dont like pvping? you just like to raid? how the poopy does arena gear affect your raiding? nothing. get over it.

it's like listening to the line cook whine about how much more money the servers make with tips and all at work. i cook because i love cooking, i dont care how much more money the servers make. that has no affect on me, they're making good money, good for them. it doesnt take anything away from me, just more for them. if money is that serious an issue, i'll go do something else, take up a job as private cook and make $150 an hour or catering and make $3000 a day. that's just not what i love, too bad what i love doesnt pay as well, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to make less. what are we, communist?

[Leviathonlx]

rehsa: i love world pvp more than anything else in the game. really that's the only reason i play the game now. i dont raid and i dont do arena. i'm just leveling chars from scratch with nothing and repeating that with different class on different realms. i dont even mind dying and losing that to me is part of the charm in pvp. unregulated and unrestrained player killing players.

it's just annoying when ppl who does nothing but raid whines and cry about how they put so much hours into wow and they deserve to have gears that no one else can get unless they put in just as much time as they do. BS. you raid because that aspect of the game is fun. who cares how much DPS your gear comes in?

does it stop your progression in raiding? no. so go back and raid with whatever gear you have and take whatever drop you get. clevin says he has no issue with arena gear being on par with whatever? that's all BS. what arena gear yields has no effect on his enjoying the activity of raiding with his guildies. zero affect. he just doesn't want someone else spending less time getting gear that he spend so much time on.

has nothing with balance, or fairness at all. it's just. if i spend x hours getting y gear. everyone else must put in that same x hours for equavalent gear. it's selfish and that's what kills the fun in the game.

it's so easy to get arena gear huh clevin? go hit up the arena then! oh you dont like pvping? you just like to raid? how the poopy does arena gear affect your raiding? nothing. get over it.

it's like listening to the line cook whine about how much more money the servers make with tips and all at work. i cook because i love cooking, i dont care how much more money the servers make. that has no affect on me, they're making good money, good for them. it doesnt take anything away from me, just more for them. if money is that serious an issue, i'll go do something else, take up a job as private cook and make $150 an hour or catering and make $3000 a day. that's just not what i love, too bad what i love doesnt pay as well, but that doesn't mean everyone else has to make less. what are we, communist?

Well have to reply to that post Kcma :p

How can you say gear you get in PvP should be equal to gear that I spend hours and hours a week learning an encounter to get? I do not mind PvP gear being slightly up to par with the gear I get from Hyjal/BT when season 3 begins but it is annoying now that people can do nothing but lose over and over in arena and get gear while if I wipe over and over on a BT or Hyjal boss course I get nothing at all. I am not saying that a raiders gear should be incredibly stronger then what players in PvP get but it should not be on par when the time invested is a much larger difference. I raid because thats the only aspect of this game thats fun that Blizzard actually puts effort in unlike the slapped together arena and BG system.

Whose the selfish one here? I think you got in backwards and that it's selfish that people who want to barely spend time playing this game to get gear on par with what I get from BT/Hyjal (when season 3 begins). And it is easy to get arena gear you just need spend a hour a day doing 10 games and thats it. Even if your the worst team in the battlegroup and do nothing but lose you will have your first piece of gear within a few weeks while if I do nothing but wipe for 3 weeks I will still have nothing but massive repair bills and tons of gold into consumables. I enjoy both aspects of the game but think Blizzard is trying to hard to please too many people anymore.

[Aerath]

I think quite a few people are missing the point.

Raiders don't begrudge casuals the items. What raiders are complaining about is the comparison of the Arena weapons specifically vs PvE progress.

If Blizzard is aiming to keep PvP and PvE "progress" on par as they claim was their intent, these Season2 weapons should be on par with Serpentshrine Cavern drops, rather than the equivalent of gear only a select few raid guilds have possible access to. (Which isn't the same as that gear actually dropping...)

On top of that, at this rate, by Season3 Arena Weapons will have surpassed anything available through raiding at this point, essentially making boss kills in to "how many Nexus Crystals are we going to get this time". It takes away quite a bit of excitement when you kill a boss after weeks of trying and discover that the awesome [mace/dagger/sword/whatever] that dropped is going to be sharded as, surprise, your Arena Weapon does even better in a PvE (and not PvP) environment.

As stated above, Armour is differentiated well enough. The same should be applying more to weapons. Focus on other stats instead. None of the Arena people would've been sad to have seen 95 DPS weapons, rather than the 98 they're presented with now. It'd still have been an upgrade. The 'left over' item value points could've been spent on PvP stats such as Spell Penetration or generic Avoidance stats.

And yes, Arena Off-hands are 11xx points. In a 5v5 team that does nothing but /dance for 1 hr a week, you'll have garnered enough points to obtain it by 3 weeks (or 3 hours total time of the effort involved).

[clevins]

kcma,

I was trying to have a disucssion and express my point of view - you do nothing but post juvenile posts about how a different point of view is whining. Nothing you said is of the slightest value.

So... welcome to my ignore list.

Aerath - you said it better than I. It's exactly that you can lose every game for 3 or 4 weeks, spending about an hour each week, and end up with an amazing OH. A few more weeks and you have an equally amazing MH. Maybe 10-15 hours total. Meanwhile to even GET to SSC I need to:

1) Attune for Kara
2) Raid Kara repeatedly until the weapons drop and I win the roll
3) Go to Gruul
4) Get drops
5) Go to Magtheridon's Lair
6) Get drops
7) Go to SSC

And after all that I'll have weapons about as good as an Arena participant who spends an hour a week for 3 months on a crappy team. Now, yes, I raid for other reasons too... the fights, the sense of accomplishment, getting non-weapon loot, seeing the raids. But part of it is the thrill of seeing a rare weapon drop and winning it. That's not being a loot whore, that's being human.

And, sure, I could Arena... it's most a point of pride that I don't

[Leviathonlx]

Well technically you can walk right into SSC or TK now. But to enter Hyjal and BT you need to still kill Kael'thas and Vashj. The Kael encounter alone takes about a half hour just for 1 attempt due to how long it is least Vashj isn't too bad. Now that I am attuned to Hyjal/BT I could go with never seeing Kael'thas again lol

[CyberHawk]

Didnt read every page, but from my perspective arena is very slow as far as item gathering.
Ive done every week of arenas since like March. Began with 2v2, then 3v3 a few weeks later, and fiannly got a 5v5 that seems ok for now. We usually average 1500 rating give or take, and total items Ive bought from arena vendor is 4 armor pieces. Which btw are cheap compared to the weapons.
Rest has been gathered from reg. bg's and got lucky buying Don Santos Famous Rifle from someone rich obviously. (800g) :)

Ive never raided anything other than Southshore raiding (pvp stuff). But never actual game content. But if a person can get the equal gear in 4-5 months of raiding...I say raiding would be easier.

If a team can get arena points so quickly that they complete the set in 2 months...then I say more power to them, they deserve it, casue they are MUCH better than most in pvp, and earned the gear.

Poor pvp'ers trying to gain gear thru arena will take forever, and always be outdated with new pieces every 6months seems.
I consider my team pretty good, and well never catch up. Item wise. :(

just my 2cents.

[Rex Normal]

Didnt read every page, but from my perspective arena is very slow as far as item gathering.
Ive done every week of arenas since like March. Began with 2v2, then 3v3 a few weeks later, and fiannly got a 5v5 that seems ok for now. We usually average 1500 rating give or take, and total items Ive bought from arena vendor is 4 armor pieces. Which btw are cheap compared to the weapons.
Rest has been gathered from reg. bg's and got lucky buying Don Santos Famous Rifle from someone rich obviously. (800g) :)

Ive never raided anything other than Southshore raiding (pvp stuff). But never actual game content. But if a person can get the equal gear in 4-5 months of raiding...I say raiding would be easier.

If a team can get arena points so quickly that they complete the set in 2 months...then I say more power to them, they deserve it, casue they are MUCH better than most in pvp, and earned the gear.

Poor pvp'ers trying to gain gear thru arena will take forever, and always be outdated with new pieces every 6months seems.
I consider my team pretty good, and well never catch up. Item wise. :(

just my 2cents.

QFT I've been on some mediocre arena teams from 2vs2 to 5vs5, even coasting around 1500 points doing only 10 matches a week it would take the average player a month to buy one piece of armor, that's the easy mode. Raiding a few nights a week in that much time should get you more upgrades than that. If you work harder on Arena, find a better team that will get your rank up higher, well yeah you'll get more gear faster, but it still won't equal comparable effort put into raiding.

Those who are saying anybody can do 4 weeks worth of arena and get 2 - 3 pieces out of it are just spewing propaganda because of some chip they have on their shoulder about how the game has changed.

[Leviathonlx]

QFT I've been on some mediocre arena teams from 2vs2 to 5vs5, even coasting around 1500 points doing only 10 matches a week it would take the average player a month to buy one piece of armor, that's the easy mode. Raiding a few nights a week in that much time should get you more upgrades than that. If you work harder on Arena, find a better team that will get your rank up higher, well yeah you'll get more gear faster, but it still won't equal comparable effort put into raiding.

Those who are saying anybody can do 4 weeks worth of arena and get 2 - 3 pieces out of it are just spewing propaganda because of some chip they have on their shoulder about how the game has changed.

In raiding though you are not guaranteed the item you want in that month like you are in arena. In raiding I cannot wipe over and over on a BT boss and in a month be given an item I will have nothing but a bunch of gold spent. Then there are other factors. The item you may want may not drop for several months (hell took me 4 to get Terestians), the item that drops several other people in the raid may want also and also theres the fact that as guilds progress they stop doing the lower end instances and so you lose your chance at a item you may want (such as the guild I am in no longer runs Gruul/Magtheridon).

I am not arguing that you should not get gear that is close to what I raid to get. But I do not like people who do not raid downplaying all the work a raider goes through to see that gear and thinking they deserve gear the exact same as what I get from almost no work at all. And really that 1 piece of gear has enough resilience on it with all the other PvP gear to basically nullify my gear. Personally I hate the arena system and how lazy Blizzard got with it (hey re-colored tier sets!) and PvP in general (resilience is the dumbest stat ever) but thats a whole other topic of discussion.

[Aerath]

QFT I've been on some mediocre arena teams from 2vs2 to 5vs5, even coasting around 1500 points doing only 10 matches a week it would take the average player a month to buy one piece of armor, that's the easy mode. Raiding a few nights a week in that much time should get you more upgrades than that. If you work harder on Arena, find a better team that will get your rank up higher, well yeah you'll get more gear faster, but it still won't equal comparable effort put into raiding.

Those who are saying anybody can do 4 weeks worth of arena and get 2 - 3 pieces out of it are just spewing propaganda because of some chip they have on their shoulder about how the game has changed.

You're talking about Armour, which none of the Raiders have a problem with.

The problem lies specifically with the pricing of weapons and the stats of those weapons.

2Handed Weapons are 3750 points, which does take a while in a 3v3 or sucky 5v5. Not as big a problem there, though they are a bit on the high side compared to PvE stats (Druid 2H mace is the single best DPS weapon in the entire game currently...)

[Pongle]

What the hell is hard about the concept that PvP weapons MUST be on par with raid weapons so non-raiders can compete in high level arena play to you people?

Is it the part where raiding doesn't automatically grant you a huge advantage in PvP (though it does, because a Stormherald = you can get 2 pieces of PvP armour ~6 weeks sooner, rating pending).

Is it the part where raiding is not a competitive process, whereas in arena your success is DIRECTLY related to how you can compete with other teams?

You may not be guaranteed the item in raiding, sure, but you do not need it to progress. In PvP the playing field needs to be reasonably equal such that new teams can actually break into the upper ratings without being gear-blocked for so long they never catch up.

[Aerath]

What the hell is hard about the concept that PvP weapons MUST be on par with raid weapons so non-raiders can compete in high level arena play to you people?

What is hard to understand about that fact that they aren't on par with, but beyond raid gear ?

Sidenote, quite a few fights are DPS runs. Not getting upgrades will mean not getting progress, or to a lesser extend than with those upgrades. However, it's solidly beside the point made.

[rgirty]

The lack of players on during peak hours the past few months demands that blizzard change their business model to cater more to casual players.

The business model no longer caters to the 1% of players who are downing the very end game bosses.

The game is not as it was pre-tbc.

Loot is better for casuals, because they make up a large percent of the customer base.

Like it, don't like it...thats the truth of it.

If you are too proud to go to the arena and get your gear, thats on you.

No where in the ToS does it say this game will seem fair to everyone.

What blizzard has learned is the same thing that the vast majority of successful businesses have already learned.

You cannot please everyone, so please the majority of your customers to keep your business model viable and your products profitable.

[Aerath]

Rgirty, the majority would have been pleased to go from 91 DPS weapons to 93 or 95 DPS weapons too. It'd still have been a considerable upgrade, they'd still have been pleased and it would still have been on par with raid progress.
And, more importantly, it'd have provided Blizzard with another upgrade step.
Arena seasons come n go faster than Blizzard provides new instances (whether it's something akin to Karazhan or BT).

[rgirty]

Perhaps they are trying to lure back some of the casual players with these arena rewards, and the removal of attunement needs?

[Aerath]

I doubt it, as the casual player would not be dedicated enough to rank 2k+

[Leviathonlx]

What the hell is hard about the concept that PvP weapons MUST be on par with raid weapons so non-raiders can compete in high level arena play to you people?

Is it the part where raiding doesn't automatically grant you a huge advantage in PvP (though it does, because a Stormherald = you can get 2 pieces of PvP armour ~6 weeks sooner, rating pending).

Is it the part where raiding is not a competitive process, whereas in arena your success is DIRECTLY related to how you can compete with other teams?

You may not be guaranteed the item in raiding, sure, but you do not need it to progress. In PvP the playing field needs to be reasonably equal such that new teams can actually break into the upper ratings without being gear-blocked for so long they never catch up.



The problem comes from Arena gear being better then raiding gear. It's sad that the arena season 2 feral hammer is better then a staff that drops in Hyjal (which needs it's stats re-done badly).

I find it funny that you think gear doesn't need to get better for raiders to progress also. So you think a kara geared group would stand a chance in BT past Shade and in Hyjal past Kaz'rogal(when the fights actually start getting hard)? The point of raiding gear was to be a bit higher then the gear a non raider gets. Now I do not expect me to be able to roll right over a non raider but its annoying that in PvP people can get gear that is better. And for you to think raiding isn't competitive.... well you obviously never have raided the top end raiding to see how competitive it really is.

[Gavriel]

The point of raiding gear was to be a bit higher then the gear a non raider gets.

Why? Gear is gear, with different avenues of getting it. Reading this thread makes me wonder why people don't simply go out and get the gear. If it was done to put things in reach of casual players, it should be easy for these hardcore raiders to get it too.

This is not directed at you Leviathonlx, but rather at the general mindset. Why the big concern over what a non-raider has? They're not going to be competing with you. If anything, they will be out there in World PvP or doing their own thing. Or is this about bragging rights, that you guys have better gear than everybody else?

That's the impression I'm getting and it seems a little bit petty.

[Muitnep]

Rgirty, the majority would have been pleased to go from 91 DPS weapons to 93 or 95 DPS weapons too. It'd still have been a considerable upgrade, they'd still have been pleased and it would still have been on par with raid progress.
And, more importantly, it'd have provided Blizzard with another upgrade step.
Arena seasons come n go faster than Blizzard provides new instances (whether it's something akin to Karazhan or BT).

I don't think the majority of players will even see 91 DPS weapons.

There are a large group of us who don't have the time even for steady BGing, and are still just trying to do all the end-game instances (not even raids). I've been playing for two years on three to five chars. Pre BC, none higher than senior sargeant, even when I was trying — I just couldn't get on that much. In fact, I had finally grounded out enough AV rep to buy a wolf when they changed the whole honor system.

Now I'm too busy trying to level my chars and see all the outlands content to worry about PvP except for some of the quicker BG rewards as I level.

Organizing a 5 man PVP team to meet the same time every day (or even a few times a week) is impossible for some (and I would say a good bit) of us — family, work, acitivities, hobbies, friends calling you out to the pub, it makes it difficult to be there every Monday, Wednesday, Friday @ 10 p.m.

For some of us /played time = weeks IRL.

And besides, if someone can 5v5 and suck (and still get the rewards) then they're still going to suck, it doesn't matter if they have the [sword of 1,000 truths] or not ... suck = suck = suck.

Skill is still > gear in most cases.

Anyway, I'm optomistic we'll be seeing a new expansion here sometime, at which point the raiders, I'm sure, will have more than enough to keep them busy with (and the pvper's crying). And I will again be behind the leveling/instance curve for another year.

Personally, I don't care either way, I'm one of many who will never see top raid gear nor top arena gear.

[Pongle]

The problem comes from Arena gear being better then raiding gear.

Why shouldn't it be?

In raids all you need is the gear that allows you to clear the content you are up to.

In Arena you need to be geared as well as your opponents in a competitive environment.


And for you to think raiding isn't competitive.... well you obviously never have raided the top end raiding to see how competitive it really is.

You are not literally competing in an environment where other guilds are trying to block you. It's like comparing sprinting to wrestling, in a sprint a guy who is 6'5" is on a level playing feild to a guy who is 5' tall, but in wrestling the larger man has a huge advantage.


PvE gear, as long as you don't need arena gear to progress in PvE is perfectly fine for it's purposes - it doesn't need to be better.

[Mesmer]

Or is this about bragging rights, that you guys have better gear than everybody else?

That's the impression I'm getting and it seems a little bit petty.

QFT that is the feeling I get from reading this thread too.

If arena gear is OP then surely it is OP for both the casual gamer as it is for the more serious raider? Isn't this a good thing for raiders that they can now get these fantastic items faster and easier making raiding just that little bit smoother/faster?

As i'm not a raider myself and don't have first hand experience here is a question for you hardcore players out there. What is the direct impact of these weapons (seems like these are the items most discussed in the thread) on your game experience? Are you finding it harder to raid because there are more casuals using arena gear?


It's like comparing sprinting to wrestling, in a sprint a guy who is 6'5" is on a level playing feild to a guy who is 5' tall, but in wrestling the larger man has a huge advantage.
I would think that the larger/taller man would have the advantage in sprinting as well because he would have a longer stride but then again I'm not an expert in exercise physiology :wink:

[Jojin]

The problem comes from Arena gear being better then raiding gear. It's sad that the arena season 2 feral hammer is better then a staff that drops in Hyjal (which needs it's stats re-done badly).


On the staff there is only missing crit chance and +hit and resilience(this is useless in PVE) but in return you get armor and more attack power in an animal form and more strength. The item level of the staff is still higher then the mace.

merciless gladiator's maul
pillar of ferocity

If you like the hammer better then the staff that is a personal preference. It doesn't make the staff worse then the hammer.

The point of raiding gear was to be a bit higher then the gear a non raider gets.

No, the point of raiding gear is that it's good enough to keep a challenging progress in raiding.

[Baboon]

Since I began playing, I've heard that casual players have killed WoW, that hardcore players have killed WoW, that the old honor system has killed WoW, that the new honor system has killed WoW, that same-realm BG queues have killed WoW, that the cross-realm BGs have killed WoW, that 40-man raids have killed WoW, that 25-man raids have killed WoW... In addition, WoW has been simultaneously killed by generally increasing complexity of the game, by generally increasing simplicity of the game, by emphasis on PvE content, by emphasis on PvP content, by exploiters, by anti-exploit measures, by balancing the game around Arenas, by leaving Arenas unbalanced, by Blizzard catering to Alliance players, by Blizzard catering to Horde players, by the lack of innovation, by the overabundance of innovation, by every single nerf ever introduced, and by every single buff ever introduced.

Since WoW is still going strong, I am forced to conclude that it is, in fact, immortal.
Which is good, given how many things are trying to kill it.

Fully agree :thumbsup:

[det]

Personally I love to raid and PvE much more than PvP. However chances are still slim that I will win T4 shoulders...and since I am in dire need of +hit, there is now my chance with 3 weeks of PvP (my team sucks, okay..) to get those.

Obviously I love it...

[Jojin]

Why has the item links been removed from my post? They were coming from wowdigger using the item command.

[Shellar]

Historically, raiders who wanted to have an edge over their peers always had to invest time and effort into activities outside the raid, be it crafting, grinding, gathering consumables... or, yes, PvPing.

Ignoring the option of acquiring Arena weapons and relying on boss drops is not entirely unlike refusing to use Alchemy-crafted flasks and relying solely on Mark of Illidari cash-ins.

[det]

Why has the item links been removed from my post? They were coming from wowdigger using the item command.

Trying that item command here:

The stoppable Force

Seems disabled or non-functional atm

[Leviathonlx]

On the staff there is only missing crit chance and +hit and resilience(this is useless in PVE) but in return you get armor and more attack power in an animal form and more strength. The item level of the staff is still higher then the mace.

merciless gladiator's maul
pillar of ferocity

If you like the hammer better then the staff that is a personal preference. It doesn't make the staff worse then the hammer.



No, the point of raiding gear is that it's good enough to keep a challenging progress in raiding.


The staff in Hyjal is badly itemized since Blizzard was not sure what the staff was for. It's downgrade for PvE over the Gladiators Maul and Terestians and a downgrade for tanking over Wildfury. They just needed to make up their mind whether the staff would be a tanking staff or DPS staff and itemize it like so since theres no reason for it to be for both when we can switch weapons in combat.

It's bad enough there is no agility on either item with gladiators wasting points in critical strike rating and the Pillar having nothing else period and a lack of crit and hit makes it a downgrade to Terestians. The Pillar at best is nothing but a sidegrade which is pathetic considering there are a whole 3 feral staffs in BC end game.

I am done with the raider vs non raider argument also since well you are not going to change anyones views on something when they are dead set on what they think on both sides.

[Gavriel]

I am done with the raider vs non raider argument also since well you are not going to change anyones views on something when they are dead set on what they think on both sides.

Oddly enough, it seems that non raiders are happy. They know that everyone can get everything by investing a bit of their time - even Raiders have the option of Arena. It's only the raiders that seem to want to nerf / deny others gear. Oh well. That's the way it goes, I suppose.

[Magikhat]

whatever :cry:

[Magikhat]

And arena gear is not better than raid gear. Its only better than SOME raid gear.

[Thargos]

And arena gear is not better than raid gear. Its only better than SOME raid gear.
It's pvp gear. Raid gear is for raiding. PvP gear is for PvP.

Unless your a twink. Then you have white/green gear enhcanted to hell.

[bwirum]

Oddly enough, it seems that non raiders are happy. They know that everyone can get everything by investing a bit of their time - even Raiders have the option of Arena. It's only the raiders that seem to want to nerf / deny others gear. Oh well. That's the way it goes, I suppose.

I'm a raider (a casual one, but still a raider) and I don't care really. The only issue I see is that Blizzard will be running out of upgrade options for the arena seasons if they keep this up, but that's entirely beside this point.

[Crudesash68]

A lot of good points brought up here, but I'll echo a previous poster by saying....why does it really matter?

We know that most of the s2 weapons are as good or better than many of the weapons out there; I believe it is well klnown that gear has been a problem since the XP came out; Blzz was so intent on making the new content exciting, and have a "buzz", so they amped all the drops and made all the gear you worked hard for in pre-BC meaningless; then, they blurred the line on drops/crafted items/quest rewards...it made the game fun for the casual player, and raiders felt slighted.

But as far as the gear, or in this case, weapons are concerned, why does anyone care? Indeed, it was said better earlier; how does a casual player with the Merciless Gladiators Quickblade affect a rogue using Malchazeen? Only in world PvP/Arena/BG...which if you are a hard-nosed raider, should not matter to you.

I am an average-geared 70 mage on a PvE server, I am lousy at PvP, fair at PvE, I have just started raiding 25-man content and am learning the subtleties involved (such as they are). I only have a 2v2 arena team, and our rating is 1403; we started s2 at 1500, went down to 1356 and have been working on getting better. In six weeks I have earned 1850 points, give or take. Assuming my current rating stays where it is, I will need another 4-5 weeks to get the Merciless dagger, which is an incredible upgrade over my Horrific Greatsword. In the few raids I have ran with my new guild (Kara, Gruul, VR, Mag) I have seen the Nathrezim Mindblade and the Bloodmaw Magus Blade drop twice, but haven't been able to win it. I LOVE the fact that if I lose out on rolls or DKP, or I have to miss a raid or two, I can look forward to improving my gear and helping do better in raids all on my own...it really is an incentive.

Ulth

[Wintrow]

Allow me to also add a point that has been frequently made in past, similar, discussions:


THE SKY IS FALLING !!!! ZZZOOMMGG1188!!


*bows
*leaves

[Shellar]

I only have a 2v2 arena team, and our rating is 1403; we started s2 at 1500, went down to 1356 and have been working on getting better.
Wait for the weekly maintenance, get your points, disband your team, and get a new charter. Voila: instant 1500 rating.

[Gavriel]

I'm a raider (a casual one, but still a raider) and I don't care really. The only issue I see is that Blizzard will be running out of upgrade options for the arena seasons if they keep this up, but that's entirely beside this point.

That is a very good point. There is only so much one can do to increase damage before an item becomes ludicrous. They can however switch to eye-candy rewards and items with a comical use.

How long was season one? Is it possible the end of season two could coincide or be relatively close to the release of the next expansion? This would allow them to boost items across the board once more and keep the rather ludicrous itemization progression going.

[LunarSolaris]

My guess is that the next arena season will probably end at about the next expansion... or not too terribly long before the next expansion. Basically once T6 items start becoming available through raiding, we'll see the next season of Arena to offer somewhat comparable gear.

[amgyn]

imo you cant PVE very well in PVP gear (not to your full potential, even with weapons) and you wont be living long with PVE gear in PVP ...

PVP:
Lots of Resilience
Lots of Stamina
Lots of crit (to counter resil)
Very little Hit
Very little int/spirit/mana regen
Very little dodge/parry/defense
Improves things like Hamstring, Intercept, Blink etc.

PVE:
Very little (if any) Resil
Good Stamina
Good crit
Lots of Hit
Lots of int/spirit/mana regen
Lots of dodge/parry/defense
Improves things like Mana regen, block, spell haste, resistance etc.

[Shadowpup]

Is there a link to someplace that has the cost in arena points for the various rewards?

Thanks in advance =)

[Gavriel]

Is there a link to someplace that has the cost in arena points for the various rewards?

There are two locations I am aware of where you can find this information.

A website named WowWiki has a listing of Arena Rewards for season 2. Linking policy prohibits me providing you with a direct link to the site, however I will recommend using Google to find the appropriate URL. Once you have found the site a query for "Arena Rewards" should direct you to the correct page.

As an alternative you can do an item search on the official Armory. The cost for each item is not shown in the search results, but once you have navigated into the item detail page you can see the actual cost to the right of it's detail pane. As an example, the Merciless Gladiator Spellblade. (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/item-info.xml?i=32053) One could argue that this is a more intuitive and useful means of discovering what is required, as you will be searching for the item you desire and then discovering it's cost. But that is most likely a peculiarity of my particular reasoning and not a complete truth.

There will of course be other means, but these are the two I am aware of. Mayhap this information will be of use to you.

[Aerath]

Yup. The official site -> Player vs Player -> Rewards

[Shadowpup]

Yup. The official site -> Player vs Player -> Rewards

Yeah I saw the list on the official site but the tooltip did't show the cost. I should have clicked just to see.

Thanks

[Shellar]

I've just realized that we've been overlooking the 'RP/lore' aspect of the situation. It appears that the goblins of Steamwheedle Cartel have access to magical items more powerful than the relics of Medivh, the weapons of the Burning Legion, the treasures of the Highborne, or the artifacts of the Illidari. Certainly makes one wonder who holds the real power over Azeroth...

[rgirty]

The goblins are researching new magical technology, the old relics are simply that..outdated LOL

Blizzard would probably spin it that way, but I can't see a correct lore for this..not that they care.