wow search on Google & Yahoo turns up sponsored gold sellers

[caldepen]

Just for fun I typed in wow at both yahoo and google today. Along with the regular links they both show sponsored links in which people or businesses pay to have show up. Both search engines had sponsored links to either gold sellers or account sellers!

I don't get it. How can this be so prevelant that american (google and yahoo) companies are receiving money for this! Could not Blizzard track these characters be transfered and then ban them? Or put pressure on yahoo and Google to not accept these advertisements? And before you say that Blizzard does not have enough clout, gimme a break! They gross more money per month than all of Hollywood (minus the porn industry and the month of July).

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Simple, the gold sellers submitted their links/sites into the respective sponsored (adsense, etc) listings. It is an automated system.

[Kugan]

Well… buying and selling gold is only illegal in game. There is nothing illegal about it out of the game. And since it brings money to Google (unfortunately), I don’t see them stopping unless Blizzard pays them a lot of money (and I don’t really see them stopping then either).

What is Blizzard going to say to Google?
[Blizzard]: Hi. We were wondering if you would stop advertising gold sellers.
[Google]: LOL, noob. Make me!!1!!!!1

And how is Blizzard supposed to track these people? Privacy issues are huge.

[caldepen]

LOL, noob. Make me!

I can guarantee that google would take Blizzard more seriously than that...

There is nothing illegal about it out of the game

While that is valid I would be willing to bet they are not a legitimate business (paying taxes, labour issues, etc.) and that would be where legality came into it. I cannot turn around and sell nike sneakers without a legit liscense to do so. There are copyright infringements all over the place. If that were the case then you and I should start up a Hogwarts school mmo...

[DrScience]

What is Blizzard going to say to Google?
[Blizzard]: Hi. We were wondering if you would stop advertising gold sellers.
[Google]: LOL, noob. Make me!!1!!!!1


for some reason this struck me as really funny. i laughed so hard when i read it that i actually shot red bull out my nose. it hurt but it was worth it.

[inkmva]

While that is valid I would be willing to bet they are not a legitimate business (paying taxes, labour issues, etc.) and that would be where legality came into it. I cannot turn around and sell nike sneakers without a legit liscense to do so. There are copyright infringements all over the place. If that were the case then you and I should start up a Hogwarts school mmo...

That's unfortunately wrong.

There's no copyrights involved. At all.

Betting they're not legitimate is just FUD :rolleyes:. I'd recommend some research into the virtual-wares industry before claiming such things.

The transaction of ingame items is against the TOS and blizzards strongest weapon against it is, for all intents and purposes, simply banning the account found in violation of said TOS.

[Polaba]

That's unfortunately wrong.

There's no copyrights involved. At all.

He's right, sadly. Illegal would be selling the actual game, or account (same thing, imo). But ingame transactions are perfectly legal outside of the TOS (I hate gold sellers, btw)

[clevins]

And Google has no grounds to ban the gold sellers - they're a legitimate customer of Google's. If Google or Yahoo etc were to start policing who can and can't advertise on their network (aside from illegal stuff like hate speech, kiddie porn etc) they'd quickly find themselves in legal hot water.

[mesonm]

And Google has no grounds to ban the gold sellers - they're a legitimate customer of Google's. If Google or Yahoo etc were to start policing who can and can't advertise on their network (aside from illegal stuff like hate speech, kiddie porn etc) they'd quickly find themselves in legal hot water.

You are wrong.....Google can certainly block certain businesses from their advertising. There is nothing that forces them to take a given customer...

But, google has no motivation to block them....so far as I can tell.

[clevins]

Actually, they don't HAVE to take a customer... but if they're to block someone based on their business and that business isn't illegal they'd open themselves up to various challenges. They *could* alter their polices to exclude RMT companies related to games like WoW where such stuff is prohibited in the game. But if they started banning people one by one, they'd potentially suffer legal exposure.

[kall]

I can guarantee that google would take Blizzard more seriously than that...
How so? Assuming you don't actually control Google that is.

[caldepen]

How so? Assuming you don't actually control Google that is.

Like the NBA taking Nike seriously. Don't be fooled, with the amount of money that runs through Blizzard they have oodles of clout. They have enough lawyers to start their own guild (and probably have...).

And I do not understand how this is not a copyright infringement. It seems clear. One cannot profit off someone else's creation. I can't legally sell Madonna songs. They are selling characters created by Blizzard (well mostly hacked off of Lord of The RIngs and others but I digress).

Can I start a website (and business) selling a Harry Potter trading card game? Of course not.

[theshard]

I think it falls into the wording. If you look at accounts for sale, it often states in the description that you are not paying for the account, as that is property of Blizzard, but rather for the time spent getting the character to said point in the game.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I think it falls into the wording. If you look at accounts for sale, it often states in the description that you are not paying for the account, as that is property of Blizzard, but rather for the time spent getting the character to said point in the game.

The wording doesn't change what actually is transpiring. Accounts for sale get removed pretty quickly from eBay.

[clevins]

Google does not check every page that the links lead to manually. They will, usually, spider the target pages to vet the for relevance, but that's an automated process.

The problem is, where do they stop? If I place an ad selling, say, Saab car parts, should google vet that I'm an authorized Saab dealer? And why? In that case, if Saab found me and wanted to pursue it, they could approach Google.

Honestly, this seems like much ado about damn little. Blizzard has created a game that uses a currency and created an economy that encourages earning that currency. They do things to try to limit the buying of gold... but frankly, they created the system in the first place. Any money based system will have this - I don't support it or use it, but I can't view the fact that these folks buy some Google ads with any real alarm. I'm sorry, but when people are confronting real, serious issues (See Darfur, Burma, etc) the RMT problem is trivial in an extreme way.

[caldepen]

The problem is, where do they stop? If I place an ad selling, say, Saab car parts, should google vet that I'm an authorized Saab dealer? And why? In that case, if Saab found me and wanted to pursue it, they could approach Google.

Thats a good point, but if you are encouraging Saab to approach Google in your metaphor why can't Blizzard?

And I don't think its a big deal and I am not alarmed, but just because there are bigger issues in the world should mean ignoring the small ones. Why bother dealing with obesity, we have to solve Iraq first!

[clevins]

I'm not encouraging Saab to. It's their choice to. But it's not Google's responsibility and they place the burden on the party that believes it's being wronged. In this case, I doubt Blizz has a case - and if they do, the can go after the companies directly vs bothering Google. Oh, that's right, Blizz IS doing that...

[Wintrow]

Thats a good point, but if you are encouraging Saab to approach Google in your metaphor why can't Blizzard?

And I don't think its a big deal and I am not alarmed, but just because there are bigger issues in the world should mean ignoring the small ones. Why bother dealing with obesity, we have to solve Iraq first!

Actually, I think obesity endangers more ppl than Iraq currently does...

But that depends on how close you are involved with the whole Iraq-thing.

[Kugan]

Like the NBA taking Nike seriously. Don't be fooled, with the amount of money that runs through Blizzard they have oodles of clout. They have enough lawyers to start their own guild (and probably have...).

And I do not understand how this is not a copyright infringement. It seems clear. One cannot profit off someone else's creation. I can't legally sell Madonna songs. They are selling characters created by Blizzard (well mostly hacked off of Lord of The RIngs and others but I digress).

Can I start a website (and business) selling a Harry Potter trading card game? Of course not.

Nah, not like NBA takes Nike seriously. Google is worth a fair bit (and I would guess a fair bit more than Blizzard) and is getting money from thousands of companies. How much money are they getting from Blizzard? And I'll be surprised if Google does not have their own guild of lawyars already :P.

You might not be able to sell Madonna songs legally, but you are able to sell a CD of Madonna that you bought years ago legally (on e-bay, etc.) It's the same deal.

[inkmva]

caldepen's example is not equal to selling a madonna song. It's more like if you take wow, put your own name on it and resell it. That's a copyright infringement.

Selling virtual goods in the game is against the terms of use (TOS) but not against the law. Copyright doesn't come into it at all.

[moopy]

Just for fun I typed in wow at both yahoo and google today. Along with the regular links they both show sponsored links in which people or businesses pay to have show up. Both search engines had sponsored links to either gold sellers or account sellers!.

In other news, water found to be wet.

[inkmva]

In other news, water found to be wet.

If that had contained some sexual innuendo and / or highly politically incorrect jabs at someone or something, it would've been one of the headlines on the paper Stan picks up in the into of american dad ;).

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

caldepen's example is not equal to selling a madonna song. It's more like if you take wow, put your own name on it and resell it. That's a copyright infringement.

Selling virtual goods in the game is against the terms of use (TOS) but not against the law. Copyright doesn't come into it at all.

Actually, selling virtual goods owned by Blizzard is making a profit off of their IP. *That* can be interpreted as a violation of Copyright law, as well as Trademark law if Blizzard set it up as such.

[caldepen]

In other news, water found to be wet.

In other news, Moopster found to be annoying.

Actually, I think obesity endangers more ppl than Iraq currently does...
But that depends on how close you are involved with the whole Iraq-thing.

...or how close you are to obese people I guess.

[moopy]

Well, honestly, what did you expect? Been living under a stone?

[ChaosSaber]

Again, it's all in the wording.
They aren't actually selling gold or characters or even time spent.
They are offering a service. That service is the exchange of items/gold/characters from one of their registered suppliers (read: Chinese sweatshop farmers) to you. It is a free trade either inside the game world or via account transferring, where they give you the relevant information. The point is that they aren't technically selling things. They are giving you a virtual item for free, and charging a fee for the service of getting you that item.

It's like charging for shipping and handling on a free item, where the goldseller is the courier. The farmers' characters have the item, which the goldsellers arrange to transfer to you. The goldsellers then charge you a fee for arranging the transfer, some of which gets transferred back to the farmer as a sort of "thank you, now back to work"

Yes it's all shakey, but to my understanding that's how it's done. At no point are they actually reselling Blizzard's virtual goods. All they do is arranange the exchange between one legitimate character (yours) and another (their farmer's) and charge the owner of the character seeking the exchange (you).

This completely bypasses the legalities of reselling virtual goods and leaves Blizzard's policies and authority as the game operator as their only real recourse.

[clevins]

Actually, selling virtual goods owned by Blizzard is making a profit off of their IP. *That* can be interpreted as a violation of Copyright law, as well as Trademark law if Blizzard set it up as such.

No, it can't. Learn about copyright law a bit, mkay?

[Valas Azuviir]

Before this gets even more heated, I might as well issue a reminder that Commandment 1 has not been rescinded and still fully applies.

Having done that, I think it's fairly safe to say that Google doesn't really care what Blizzard has to say, no matter the money they have. I mean, Google doesn't particularly care what human rights organizations have to say either. I point to the whole cooperating with the Chinese government to rat out dissidents with web blogs things and/or handing out ip information so said people could be traced.

And all of this is far worse PR wise than gold selling, yet they still do it.
Now, if Blizzard was willing to pay them a big chunk of money, then they might start to care. Don't think that Blizzard is willing to do that though, could get quite expensive when one considers the revenues of say an IGE, that are probably about equal with that of Blizzard themselves, if not more.

[Altaris]

And all of this is far worse PR wise than gold selling, yet they still do it.
Now, if Blizzard was willing to pay them a big chunk of money, then they might start to care. Don't think that Blizzard is willing to do that though, could get quite expensive when one considers the revenues of say an IGE, that are probably about equal with that of Blizzard themselves, if not more.

Do you really believe that gold selling and power leveling services are so rampant?

And if so, why? Is it just that hard to get caught?

[rgirty]

Do you really believe that gold selling and power leveling services are so rampant?

And if so, why? Is it just that hard to get caught?

I believe they are that rampant. I know of no less than 5 people who buy gold regularly and admit it. Those are just people that I know of, there are a lot of people that I talk to all the time that never farm, don't know a thing about the auction house do not have a gathering profession but....

Have epic flying.

Now, i'm not going to say they did buy gold. But 100% of them didn't just save up gold I can tell you that.

I believe it is very hard to get caught. I know an individual who has been buying it regularly for 18 months.

[clevins]

I doubt that IGE is close to a billion dollar per year company. And remember that Blizz is part of Vivendi, a large company.

All that said, there's an easy way for Blizzard to deal with this. Buy the keywords themselves and bid high enough that the gold sellers are bumped off the first page. Drive the traffic to promotional or informational pages on the Blizzard site.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

No, it can't. Learn about copyright law a bit, mkay?

I wish people would stop with the personal attacks when making a response. That said, I'd suggest reading Pitfalls of Virtual Property (http://www.themis-group.com/uploads/Pitfalls%20of%20Virtual%20Property.pdf). It does a wonderful job of summarizing all sides of the argument about it rather well. Now true, Copyright law is rather unclear on the whle virtual world/virtual property issue, but Trademark law is a little better (and tends to be what Wizards of the Coast is more reliant on with the Dungeons and Dragons games). That said, it still is "too new" to be any more than vague efforts to figure out/make sense of it all. The conclusion of that paper sums it all up nicely:

Different groups of people involved in virtual worlds want different things, not all of which are necessarily compatible with the wants of others. Some of these wants are self-defeating, some are misguided, some border on the paranoid, but as yet no significant disputes have been tested in the courts. All parties therefore believe they are in the right.

The situation we have at present is relatively stable, but it cannot last. Sooner or later, those who make and interpret laws will have to formulate judgements about virtual worlds. Who knows what new laws might be enacted? Who knows what old laws may be retooled to apply? Will the courts make the right decision for you? Or will they put you in a situation you find intolerable yet from which you are unable to escape?

The biggest pitfall of virtual property comes from the fact that the concept is so new: there aren't the precedents, either in law or in practice, to be certain how it will finally be managed. Working with the unknown, while perhaps exciting for those who enjoy gambling, is nevertheless on the whole bad for business.

The biggest pitfall of virtual property is this: the uncertainty of its status in law.

[inkmva]

But haven't Blizzard quite smoothly gone around that whole issue with the fact that no-one owns any virtual property in Wow except Blizzard ?

Which is also why copyrights doesn't apply; it's simply the service of locating someone to give you free gold that's being charged here.

But as far as virtual property in wow goes, if a law where to be passed saying you need to pay taxes on VP Blizzard would still be in the clear as there is never any money exchanged for any VP as Blizzard, the sole proprietor, never sells it.

[caldepen]

No, it can't. Learn about copyright law a bit, mkay?

Xlorep beat me to it but can we have a conversation without the sarcasm for once, mmmmkayyy?

Also I think you should learn a little about Intellectual Property. If I create it, you can't profit from it without my consent. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen because it is a hard thing to police but it is definitely not legal, mmmmmkkkkaaaaayyyy?

[clevins]

Copyright doesn't cover what you assert it does. You can claim it does all day, but that doesn't make it true. Blizzard's better recourse would be to approach the search engines about unauthorized use the the Warcraft trademark in the ads themselves. However, this is an unclear area - fair use and all. And if they get pick... these forums use the phrase "World of Warcraft" in the name. Is that merely descriptive (not covered) or, because the forums have ads are the forum owners profiting off of the WoW IP?

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

The phrase "world of Warcraft" can't be copyrighted. But it can be Trademarked, which it is. Blizzard then gets to decide when and where the trademark can be used. Blizzard likes word-of-mouth advertising, and they love fansites, so they are most likely not going to force the fansites to no longer use the phrase. But, if Blizzard wanted to, they could enforce the Trademark in a much more strict sense and specify precisely who and what can use the term -- and as long as they have the earliest recorded trademark registration, they can do so, and would win in any civil case surrounding it (at least in the US, but I also believe internationally, thanks to Vivendi's efforts abroad).

Copyrights get very messy... which is one of the reason there is such a strong movement to get rid of them. There is too much gray areas, and not enough precision in them. That said, you should read the article I linked.

[caldepen]

ok (once again with arguing semantics...), I create game b and you come in and sell additions to that game (which is what these people are selling) and you are saying that is fine?

Well Jiminy Cricket, I am going to write a sequel to Harry Potter!

And I don't really care what covers it and what doesn't. Something covers it and I know that profiting without legal consent from the creator is illegal. Try selling copies of NFL games and see how long it takes for you to be contacted... or NFL paraphenalia (and I am not talking about reselling a t-shirt on Ebay) or whatever you think is a good metaphor for what WoW toon sellers do.

[Tort]

Also I think you should learn a little about Intellectual Property. If I create it, you can't profit from it without my consent.

Thats so untrue its not even funny. There are so many exceptions and loopholes to your blanket statement that I wouldn't even know where to begin. But, as a lawyer, I really enjoy listening to this type of armchair lawyering, so please continue. :grin:

To stay on topic, selling gold is not a violation of any current copyright, trademark, or patent law. It is essentially an in-game transaction between two individuals, followed or preceeded by an out of game transaction involving the exchange of money for services rendered.

Lets try to use some common sense here. If gold selling was indeed illegal, don't you think blizzard's lawyers would be filing lawsuits against the known major gold sellers? I can tell you that major corporate lawyers are not squeamish about filing massive amounts of lawsuits, IF they have a legal ground to stand on. (Yes I know there is currently one lawsuit in the works, but it involves gold sellers abusing blizzard's ingame chat systems, not the actual selling of gold.)

Edit: I completely agree with that passage from Xlorep's book. There is very little case law concerning virtual property, and most courts are in no hurry to create it. I think that maybe, in the future, something like gold selling will be held illegal, but as of now, there are no such laws in place and current IP law does not expand that far.

[clevins]

ok (once again with arguing semantics...), I create game b and you come in and sell additions to that game (which is what these people are selling) and you are saying that is fine?

Well Jiminy Cricket, I am going to write a sequel to Harry Potter!

And I don't really care what covers it and what doesn't. Something covers it and I know that profiting without legal consent from the creator is illegal. Try selling copies of NFL games and see how long it takes for you to be contacted... or NFL paraphenalia (and I am not talking about reselling a t-shirt on Ebay) or whatever you think is a good metaphor for what WoW toon sellers do.

Sigh... You're now starting to be irrational. You don't care what anyone else says, you just KNOW you're right. Except that you aren't.

The phrase "world of Warcraft" can't be copyrighted. But it can be Trademarked, which it is. Blizzard then gets to decide when and where the trademark can be used. Blizzard likes word-of-mouth advertising, and they love fansites, so they are most likely not going to force the fansites to no longer use the phrase. But, if Blizzard wanted to, they could enforce the Trademark in a much more strict sense and specify precisely who and what can use the term -- and as long as they have the earliest recorded trademark registration, they can do so, and would win in any civil case surrounding it (at least in the US, but I also believe internationally, thanks to Vivendi's efforts abroad).

Copyrights get very messy... which is one of the reason there is such a strong movement to get rid of them. There is too much gray areas, and not enough precision in them. That said, you should read the article I linked.

I never asserted it could be copyrighted. My point is precisely that things aren't black and white, but that does NOT mean that copyright law (or trademark law) can be redefined to cover things simply because Caldepen wants it to cover them.

[caldepen]

What Is Copyright

Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following:

*

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;
*

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;
*

To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;
*

To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
*

To display the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and
*

In the case of sound recordings*, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.


Gee I guess I am not the only person who believes that... I was just paraphrasing. This comes from The United States Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/).

Point two about derivative work is what I was referring but since you are a lawyer you probably need more proof than that.

can be redefined to cover things simply because Caldepen wants it to cover them.

Why would I want it to cover things? I don't own Blizzard. I do not have anything to gain by this discussion so get off your high horse...

[Valas Azuviir]

I doubt that IGE is close to a billion dollar per year company. And remember that Blizz is part of Vivendi, a large company.

All that said, there's an easy way for Blizzard to deal with this. Buy the keywords themselves and bid high enough that the gold sellers are bumped off the first page. Drive the traffic to promotional or informational pages on the Blizzard site.

Do you really believe that gold selling and power leveling services are so rampant?

And if so, why? Is it just that hard to get caught?

Main problem is, this will start a bidding war between Blizzard and the goldsellers and while the latter would normally do anything they could to destroy one and other, I can see them working together to either match or exceed Blizzard's offer.

Comes a point, where it's just financially unattractive for Blizzard to do this, effects the bottom line too much and that makes the beancounters unhappy. Especially, when you consider the contract with google has a finite duration. Say a year, after that the whole dog and pony show starts up again.

So, unfortunately, it's not as easily resolved as folks might like.

Especially, because goldselling itself is a grey area, when it comes to the law. There are enough loopholes to wiggle your way out of most scrapes. Hence, why Blizzard hasn't dropped a tribe of angry Ogres on IGE yet, to name but one company. (And much to my own chagrin as well I might add.)

It's akin in some ways to folks offering an illegal taxi service. You're not paying them for their time, or their services, you are pitching in with the gasmoney. The former two would constitute them offering a service allowed only to those with the proper licensing, the latter has no such boundary.

Oh and lest I forget turn down the heat in this thread folks. I'm not going to issue another warning, next violation will lead to a 3 day suspension from the forums.

:annoyed:

[Tort]

Gee I guess I am not the only person who believes that... I was just paraphrasing. This comes from The United States Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/).

Point two about derivative work is what I was referring but since you are a lawyer you probably need more proof than that.

Quoting the Copyright Act (or any statute for that matter) is a rather futile attempt to prove or disprove something in the law. Statutes must be interpreted by courts, and although the phrase "to prepare derivative works based upon the work" might seem simple to understand to a layperson, there have been literally hundreds of cases over the past 20 years which have attempted to define the boundaries of intellectual property: what it protects, how long it protects, and how you can lose that protection.

If I was a gold seller's lawyer (who knows, the billable hours might be killer), I would argue that I am selling the time and effort it took me to gather the necessary game gold for real life money. I doubt there is a court in the world, at this moment, who would rule that this constitutes copyright or trademark violation.

Selling or buying gold is a very real offense within the game World of Warcraft. It violates Blizzard's TOS, and it has several deleterious effects on the game and players. But, under current IP laws, it is not against the law. It is up to Blizzard, not the judicial system, to police their own game.

[caldepen]

Again this comes to what I said earlier and the whole reason for me starting this post. It would not be easy for Blizzard to tackle this and it would probably cost them more than it is worth. That is why they have to appear like they are doing something without actually accomplishing much.

To tell me that Blizzard does not have Intellectual Property Rights to World of Warcraft is silly. You can be derisive and patronizing all you like but it does not change that fact. They have just realized that it would cost them more than it would save for them to go after everybody. It just saddens me that they are so obvious as to advertise with american companies like Google and Yahoo.