Those damned twinks...

[VizjereiSerbia]

We've all seen them, running around in BG with their glowing weapons. Most people playing battleground have been killed by some of them(usually in 1-2 hits). What am I talking about you ask? It's the TWINK of course. Usually a rogue, warrior and even hunter to some extent. You can recognize them by the above mentioned enchanted weapons(not the just weapons, but that's what you can see), or the fact that the twink rogue has more health than the non-twink warrior. You might ask why am I being so harsh, after all there are twinks on both horde and alliance? Well the answer is I just hate them because they ruin every battleground, either by killing you(argh gnome twinks grr) or by insulting everyone who isn't playing exactly how they want. So for all you people who have something to say about twinks, here is your chance.

P.S. I simply cant wait to hear what the twinks themselves have to say!!!
All I can say to all of them is: "Do your worst!!!":evil:

[snowieken]

So for all you people who have something to say about twinks, here is your chance.I think people who wanted to say something about twinks have had their fair share of chances on these forums... :grin:P.S. I simply cant wait to hear what the twinks themselves have to say!!!Try to do a forums search on twinks. :)

[Ilianis]

I am not a twink... but, i dont actually mind them, they do like people do in the level 70 brackets, enchant weapons, armour etc. For example, practically every mage at level 70 has the +40 spell damage enchant on their staff/dagger. They want to have the top score, thats fine by me, so does everyone else. They do it their way by using enchants and godly weapons. I do know where you are coming from obviously, its a bit unfair for all the people who are on their first character and who dont have any money to afford all these buffs. The simple answer is that when you have just started, dont do the level 10-19, 20-29 brackets. It's just impossible.

now what i've said might not make sense, but i was just trying to put what i thought into words.

[tehskirt]

I don't mind them much anymore, although I do stray away from 10-19 pvp. 20-29 isn't AS bad, and after that its not horrible. You may find some people that are really really overpowered, but thats not been the norm in my experience.

[dgrampa]

I know it sucks to lose, but you can't blame everyone else. Twinks are just playing the game the way it was designed. What you and every other new player need to do is take it as a learning experience instead of posting about it on the forums. You're just going to get flamed, and what do you expect to accomplish? Twinks are never going away. We don't need to justify how we play the game to you or anyone else.

Let me speed this thread along to it's ending, since I've seen and read a million of these threads already.

Anti-twink arguments:
1) Twinks ruin the game for new players.
2) High level enchants on low level weapons were never intended.
3) Twinks are just players who can't hack it at 70 PvP.

Twink responses:
1) This is a RPG where gear is the end objective. The sooner you learn this, the sooner you will start gearing up rather than expecting everyone else to 'artificially limit' what gear they choose to obtain for their characters.
2) If Blizzard believed that high level enchants were broken 2 years ago when these types of threads started cropping up, why did they give 29 twinks access to new BC enchants less than a year ago? Yes, level 29 characters can obtain items that can receive BC enchants. They are also retuning low level instances to buff the items these existing twinks use, further proof that Blizzard does not see anything wrong with twinking.
3) Generalizations are stupid. Many HWL/GM players twink. Many 2500+ arena teams also twink.

So go ahead, post your 'original' thoughts about twinking because, as everyone knows, we've never seen this topic before. Enlighten us. :rolleyes:

[Chappy Gilmore]

I myself don't really like twinks (I also have no idea who called them that in the first place..theres another meaning to it :/) however when you think about, is it any different than level 70 battlegrounds? In fact I think its far worse at level 70, if you just got level 70and go in BG you'll be wearing quested greens and a couple of lower level blue bits probably...And what are you going against? Quite alot of the time lots of people in full epics and high level enchants, so is it that much different?

Anyway role a hunter and kite them rogue twinks, its so much fun imagining their face when you, in greens whites and greys, are killing them in blues and high level enchants :)

[tehskirt]

I myself don't really like twinks (I also have no idea who called them that in the first place..theres another meaning to it :/) however when you think about, is it any different than level 70 battlegrounds? In fact I think its far worse at level 70, if you just got level 70and go in BG you'll be wearing quested greens and a couple of lower level blue bits probably...And what are you going against? Quite alot of the time lots of people in full epics and high level enchants, so is it that much different?

Anyway role a hunter and kite them rogue twinks, its so much fun imagining their face when you, in greens whites and greys, are killing them in blues and high level enchants :)

Before hitting 70 I saved a lot of marks and honor and got decent PVP gear to fight off the other 70s. There will always be ridiculously geared peeps around, but at least you can do something about it, moreso than before TBC.

[det]

I twink my characters for pve. If you take it away for pvp, you take it away for pvp.

At the end of the day, does it matter how I get slaughtered?
-a player kills me on even equipment odds because he is better
-a player who runs more instances kills me on skill and/ or gear advantages
-a player who has been doing arena every week for 3 months will kill me on skill and gear
-a player will kill me because he has his buddies with him.

Like the say on the official forums "Care? LOL!"

[tralkar]

I have twinkys and proud of them.. I made it to 70 5 times So SHOOT me..

[VizjereiSerbia]

Well it's nice to see a lot of posts in such a short time. To answer the twink's question above: wanna do something new-try leveling :grin:!!!
I know twinks are never gonna go away, but hey it never hurts to express your opinion. Oh btw I also notices that twinks are only so much overpowered in WSG, and not so much)or at all in other BGs. Maybe because the rush tactic is really effective only in WSG.
Oh for those who said I'm mad because I lose- think again I kill twinks all the time with my warlock with the dot, dot ,dot, dead tactic. So there you go!
Keep posting you guys!!!

[rottentomato]

Well it's nice to see a lot of posts in such a short time. To answer the twink's question above: wanna do something new-try leveling :grin:!!!
I know twinks are never gonna go away, but hey it never hurts to express your opinion. Oh btw I also notices that twinks are only so much overpowered in WSG, and not so much)or at all in other BGs. Maybe because the rush tactic is really effective only in WSG.
Oh for those who said I'm mad because I lose- think again I kill twinks all the time with my warlock with the dot, dot ,dot, dead tactic. So there you go!
Keep posting you guys!!!

i play my twink when leveling gets boring or i get frustrated while questing and want to get a change of pace...i went about 6 months where i didnt play the normal game and instead decided to play a twink. as far as a untwinked lock beating a twink...i have yet to see that in the 19 bracket

[caldepen]

yup, an untwinked 'lock against my hunter? Not going to happen without a bunch of his buddies...

[Imraath]

Heh, a warlock complaining about pvp!

[kall]

Don't we have gear-balancing in the BGs now? (Making it less likely a non-twink will come up against a real one?)

[tehskirt]

Don't we have gear-balancing in the BGs now? (Making it less likely a non-twink will come up against a real one?)

Can't say I've noticed a difference tbh

Though it also has something to do with how many people are playing, so if its not that many you will run into twinks/premades no matter what.

[kall]

Good point. Premades would also make it harder to match twinks and non-twinks I suppose.

Ahh well, I have fun with them or without them.

[Kugan]

I think someone else had the best solution yet.

Make two types of battlegrounds:
One where you gain experience in the bg.
One that is just like it is today.

When you enter a battleground, you decide which one to join. This will allow the twinks to play together in a non experience gaining battleground, and the non twinks to happily fight against each other (and gain some xp as well).

Everyone will be happy. I love my little twink, but I also dislike fighting against people who stands no chance.

Unfortunately, it’s a bit difficult to implement (and might cause longer queues). So for now the non twinks, and the twinks, will just have to live with it.

[Findariel]

Yes I do have twinks (I could write a guide for lvl29 caster twinks) and yes I still wonder why Blizzard made it possible to ruin the newcomers BG experience and even encourage it.

Beyond my comprehension, really.

[dgrampa]

Yes I do have twinks (I could write a guide for lvl29 caster twinks) and yes I still wonder why Blizzard made it possible to ruin the newcomers BG experience and even encourage it.

Beyond my comprehension, really.

Who would you rather cater to?

The person who has already leveled to 70 and is still finding new ways to play the game, reliably sending you $15/month for over a year?

Or someone who quits the game after seeing the first signs of adversity?

[Findariel]

I'd rather have Blizz invent some other challenges than spoiling new players' BG experiences.

[moopy]

I'd rather have Blizz invent some other challenges than spoiling new players' BG experiences.

BGs are already fully spoiled below 70 now, due to the strutting peeners who can't cut it at level cap.

[ChaosSaber]

I'd rather have Blizz invent some other challenges than spoiling new players' BG experiences.

It's called raiding. They're always adding something new.
Also there's the dailies for non-raiders. Again they keep adding these.

[xDarkDrifterx]

IMO

Twinks on the opposing faction's team can hurt your bg experience yes.

Twinks on your bg team can help your bg experience greatly.

Twinks on both teams and you've got a fight on your hands between twinks with lowbies often getting one shotted.

My (29) rogue can one shot clothies - and my (36) clothie gets one shotted by rogues (lol) - I have a great experience win or loose whichever toon I'm on because I enjoy the BGs themselves.

I play the above usually once I'm done with dailies on my main. I'll level my noobie priest a bit and hop on the rogue for 1-3 BG's before bed a few times a week. I'm leveling the preist up to become a new main I beleive :thumbsup:

Some people that have twinks / semi-twinks do so b/c it's a change of pace for them. I log onto my baby semi-twink to BG b/c it's fun, it's different for me as a player, it was fun to build him (though I still need some gear enchants and wouldn't mind new weapon enchants), not every twink is a ZOMG L2Play Nub - A-hole, many are nice and understand that they're the ones usually OP in the BG and that they'll be picking up the slack a bit if the other team has twinks as well (anyone who gets all pissed is just an epeen kid who doesn't understand group dynamics and general kindness). Often times your team will have mor twinks which equals (usually) a win and a fun BG experience.

Yes, the gear matching is working somewhat. Usually twinks against twinks (rare to see someone in the 29 bracket with under 1200 hps lately - 1400-2k+ seems the norm) though there's always the inevitable lvl 20 (and they complain, which I don't understand b/c the non twinks at level 29 stilll have 4 levels of spells / skills higher than them and are gonna one shot them probably). If you're playing at certain times of the evening and no one else is trying to go to that bracket BG in your battlegroup you'll get matched up against twinks (b/c the game is not going to just keep you out of the match if you're of level and one of the few in que for that bracket).

IMO twinking is fun to do and will always be a fun past time for people who just want something different to do from time to time. And if you have the money why wouldn't you get the best of everything for your toons ? I mean, if you have money and enjoy BGing alot then twinking is often a next step.

:smiley:

[moopy]

Twinks on the opposing faction's team can hurt your bg experience yes.

Twinks on your bg team can help your bg experience greatly.

Au contraire. I'd rather the twinks on were on the other team, then I wouldn't have to see the screamy attention-whoring and e-peen waving from the virtually pre-linguistic. Also, when an idiot twink rogue gets the flag and then struts around the middle of WSG with it, running at crowds of opposing players, it's not my team that has lost it.

[xDarkDrifterx]

Au contraire. I'd rather the twinks on were on the other team, then I wouldn't have to see the screamy attention-whoring and e-peen waving from the virtually pre-linguistic. Also, when an idiot twink rogue gets the flag and then struts around the middle of WSG with it, running at crowds of opposing players, it's not my team that has lost it.

Yeah, I get those too from time to time. Generally, b/c I play so late, it seems thats it's been mostly adult players, with twinks, against twinks, without much talking except for BG convo (efc GY, etc) and then GG at the end. It's been amazing, not the normal epeenerific crap that the kids that go to bed at 11pm usually spout it seems lol

It's been a nice change. I usually don't bg on weekends before 10-11pm now on my little rogue b/c of those type. It would be nice if it stayed this way, as those people make me /afk out.

[Duke Brand]

We've all seen them, running around in BG with their glowing weapons. Most people playing battleground have been killed by some of them(usually in 1-2 hits). What am I talking about you ask? It's the TWINK of course. Usually a rogue, warrior and even hunter to some extent. You can recognize them by the above mentioned enchanted weapons(not the just weapons, but that's what you can see), or the fact that the twink rogue has more health than the non-twink warrior. You might ask why am I being so harsh, after all there are twinks on both horde and alliance? Well the answer is I just hate them because they ruin every battleground, either by killing you(argh gnome twinks grr) or by insulting everyone who isn't playing exactly how they want. So for all you people who have something to say about twinks, here is your chance.

P.S. I simply cant wait to hear what the twinks themselves have to say!!!
All I can say to all of them is: "Do your worst!!!":evil:

So you are basically saying a twink ruins a battleground cuz they kill you, wait isn't that the point of PVP. (Player vs Player just had to remind you incase you didn't know). Personally I have a 19 twink rogue that I enjoy playing in my off time from raiding ssc or TK. Do I run around and insult people.....no i do not. I never have and I never will. Twinking is a good way to blow off some steam after raiding, or just to pass some time. If you don't like dying work on getting yourself some better gear and you won't die as easily. PVP is survival of the fittest, and unfortunately is seems that your toon is not the fittest. Twinking is fun, it adds quite a bit to the game as far as pvp goes.

Just because I play a twink doesn't mean i can't pvp myself. My main (70 shadow preist) has over 26k honor kills and I grinded up to commander pre cross server BG's (if you were even around for that). I also am on a 1800+ 5v5 team so i can do a bit of arena too. I'm not trying to stroke my epeen here, i'm just trying to show to you that alot of twinks are normal everyday players and not just some immature kids out there taking advantage of undergeared lower lvl toons. What's the difference if i'm lvl 70 5/5 merc gladiator with all bg equipment my off hand & main hand weapon comes up against your 70 in wsg in all blues. There's not, I just spent more time on gearing my toon out. I would reccomend you try it out before you start knocking it. You might just enjoy it yourself.

[dgrampa]

Au contraire. I'd rather the twinks on were on the other team, then I wouldn't have to see the screamy attention-whoring and e-peen waving from the virtually pre-linguistic. Also, when an idiot twink rogue gets the flag and then struts around the middle of WSG with it, running at crowds of opposing players, it's not my team that has lost it.

Just because many twinks are immature idiots doesn't mean we all are.

[moopy]

Just because many twinks are immature idiots doesn't mean we all are.

True enough, and Karl Popper would applaud wildly here. Surely the solution is to make BGs give XP, and make them available as a "skirmish BG" option too- giving no honour, marks or XP.. A bit like the practise arena matches, if you will.

That'd soon separate out the plonkers who just strut around in twink gear because they hate a fair fight, from the furry freaks who actually want to have a decent match. It'd give both the twinks and the non-twinks loads more fun in BGs, as well as exposing the skill-free peeners for what they are. It would also limit the lifespan of those same peeners, who would eventually have to go fight the other twinks, or level up.

[snowieken]

I really hoped my initial (sarcastic) reply would entice you people into letting this thread die, but no, this really had to turn into yet another twink discussion..

[Dhoum]

I have decided to grind battlegrounds on my latest character simply because the gear you can obtain through BGs is superior to most quested items. So, when I hit the *9 level, I stop exping and grind BGs for a week or so. I'm only in it for the marks, and don't particularly enjoy the experience most of the time. When I lose a BG because there are more twinks on the other side, it makes me angry because that means my grinding time has been extended. It's further frustrating because it doesn't help me hone my technique, in much the same way as a level *0 isn't going to learn a great deal going against mostly *9s.

While the 70 BGs may well be uneven (though I suspect this is likely to shift to the 80s with the release of WotLK) at least you can take sanity breaks and do quests and instances, an option not open to characters doing BGs at lower levels. Also, gear wise at max-level the only way is up, meaning that the imbalances will tend to reduce as time passes.

I do wish that Blizzard would tighten up the availability of enchants and kits to level inappropriate characters, but I accept that this is unlikely to happen (nor are they likely to give twinks their own battle group - which is my favoured solution). So I'm resigned to just letting off steam about twinks every now and then, and just get on with grinding.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I remember the older definitions of Twinks, rather than the newer ones.... /sigh

Anyway, my Warrior has enchanted weapons, she is, I guess, a "twink". But, she doesn't PvP, and tends to solo a lot, the enchants really help her be able to solo well.

[moopy]

Anyway, my Warrior has enchanted weapons, she is, I guess, a "twink". But, she doesn't PvP, and tends to solo a lot, the enchants really help her be able to solo well.

Same with my warrior- what people forget is that he sends all the greenies to my enchanter to shard, and pays for his own enchants.. He actually makes a profit.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

It's like all of my Horde characters benefit from my having a high-level herbalist/alchemist. They keep well-stocked in potions that help them.

[moopy]

Yep, I have an alchemist too- and quite a few of my toons are herbalists, so they hoover up whatever they find, to keep everyone stocked. It also keeps my shammy in mana pots for raiding, it's all good.

[VizjereiSerbia]

OK I haven't been around for 2 days and DAMN!!! Popular thread isn't it? Now to answer some questions adressed to me:
Yes my non-twink warlock can kill twinks. but of course not in the 19 bracket but the 29 and recently 39 bracket.
I have tried to make a twink rogue, so I started to grind BGs. It was going ok but it just stopped being fun. I could kill clothies even as a non-twink that I was, but I just felt disgusting at the thought of strutting around in my gear. So I gave that up and continued to level my lock and do BGs once in a while as a change of pace. And let me tell you, it feels so much better to kill a twink with 200-300g worth of gear and enchants with my non-twink, cloth wearing, non-enchanted warlock.
The solution would be to have a separate BG for twinks, just so they can go at each other, because I've a number of twink rogues who get killed every time they encounter another twink rogue or warrior, so they avoid them and go for the weak lower levels and cloth-wearers.

[Duke Brand]

because I've a number of twink rogues who get killed every time they encounter another twink rogue or warrior, so they avoid them and go for the weak lower levels and cloth-wearers.

I attack whatever gets in my way....I have no bias on weather you are a twink or not. If you are in a bg then you are there to kill & get killed. If you cross my twink rogues path I will attempt to kill you twink or not. I do not hunt out the non twinks, personally i think fighting another twink is much more fun & challenging.

[caldepen]

Yeah I don't really have the time to target certain characters. I just blast away! And my cat is rabid, attacking all with impunity, sparing no one. I dare say she would be 2nd highest on the damage charts often enough...

Its funny how they ignore her so...

[Shadowpup]

Just a bit of curiosity...

Those that bash on the twinks have never sent items or gold to their alts ever? I find things that my Mage just can't use so I send it to one of my other characters. One of my guys was short on cash for his mount, so I sent over some gold. Lowbies in the guild are having a hard time, I send them something I crafted, or run them through an instance.

The twink bashers are saying they have never done this? Sounds...like a waste of time.

[rottentomato]

favorite twink vs non twink story....running through barrens on my hunter, reading the general barrens chat in between all the "nuck chorris" quotes...some guy was calling everyone a no0b because they wiped three times in WC, and kept complaining about how bad the group was, and how amazing he was...but the group was pointing out to him he didnt drop traps in front of healer to keep him alive if aggro got pulled or anything similar...well homeboy, a lvl 25 hunter starts talking trash about how priests cant hold their own then they get attacked by anything, and how amazingly weak they are and how the healer for their party should have rolled a druid...so i challenged him to a duel with a lvl 19 priest, and told him id not only spank him, but he wouldnt do more than get two shots at the most on me...and bet him 50g. so he laughed and agreed, drew a crowd of about 30 or so in the crossroads, and when i got there with a 19 twink priest, got a few laughs from some people, and he said he'd have no problem taking me, so i said lets go. fight went,

SHIELD
SW:P
SCREAM
MB
LOLLERSMITE
MB
WAND
DEATH


poor guy never saw it coming, ran into the inn and logged off. got a ton of cheers about that one.

[Findariel]

Just a bit of curiosity...

Those that bash on the twinks have never sent items or gold to their alts ever? The twink bashers are saying they have never done this? Sounds...like a waste of time.
What has this to do with it? It's not about sending nice stuff to your alts, it's about spending 1,000g on a character (esp. on enchants) to make it completely overpowered compared to a player with a 1st character in the BGs. Having some nice gear isn't twinking.

For all those in favour of twinking I may ask: what's so bad about always having level playing fields where teamwork and skill actually matters more than gear?

[rottentomato]

What has this to do with it? It's not about sending nice stuff to your alts, it's about spending 1,000g on a character (esp. on enchants) to make it completely overpowered compared to a player with a 1st character in the BGs. Having some nice gear isn't twinking.

For all those in favour of twinking I may ask: what's so bad about always having level playing fields where teamwork and skill actually matters more than gear?

thats the idea with the matching system...twinks with twinks...its like the NFL, you have a lot of players that are really good, a few uber stars, and then you have the miami dolphins....

[Findariel]

thats the idea with the matching system...twinks with twinks...its like the NFL, you have a lot of players that are really good, a few uber stars, and then you have the miami dolphins....
Except that it doesn't work in 95% of the time either due to lack of players or the system being far from perfect.

Nerfing the possibilities to twink (mainly by adding more level reqs to enchants en leg armour sets) would absolutely guarantee a - more or less - even playing field in all cases.

[rottentomato]

Except that it doesn't work in 95% of the time either due to lack of players or the system being far from perfect.

Nerfing the possibilities to twink (mainly by adding more level reqs to enchants en leg armour sets) would absolutely guarantee a - more or less - even playing field in all cases.

sort of...youd still have quests you can do at lvl 17 which would spread it out a little...warlocks would be wayyy OP... gravestone scepter, fear, dot, dot, death...not exactly as fair as having 7 twinks per team and the few non twinks getting ganked here and there

i still think the miami dolphin players that go in from time to time balance it out, and when one of them get a KB on a twink...everyone always cheers...

[Findariel]

sort of...youd still have quests you can do at lvl 17 which would spread it out a little...warlocks would be wayyy OP... gravestone scepter, fear, dot, dot, death...not exactly as fair as having 7 twinks per team and the few non twinks getting ganked here and there

i still think the miami dolphin players that go in from time to time balance it out, and when one of them get a KB on a twink...everyone always cheers...
That's still leaving the possibility of "Miami Dolphins vs the Local Amateur Team".
I've seen too much matches already decided before the game even started.
Level restrictions would still allow people to get blue gear but I hope it's obvious that the difference that would make is far smaller than having Nethercleft and 2 x 15 agi (etc) vs green geared newcomers.

[rottentomato]

That's still leaving the possibility of "Miami Dolphins vs the Local Amateur Team".
I've seen too much matches already decided before the game even started.
Level restrictions would still allow people to get blue gear but I hope it's obvious that the difference that would make is far smaller than having Nethercleft and 2 x 15 agi (etc) vs green geared newcomers.

if the matchup were dolphins vs local amateur team, my money is on the amateur team...i consider a fully stacked twink team more like the patriots...and if you get a even match between them, its patriots vs colts...any other setup you have a chance, but you have to play flawless to win against those pats....just the way the game will always be. sort of like even though halo is completely even, there are some people that play ALL the time with multiple accounts, are much better than they should be and play with a low level guy to dominate the new guys

[Findariel]

Sigh .............

[moopy]

Just a bit of curiosity...

Those that bash on the twinks have never sent items or gold to their alts ever?

I find that my levelling warrior supports my raiding toon, as it goes.

[Kugan]

I find that my levelling warrior supports my raiding toon, as it goes.

Hehe. Same with my levelling Rogue (for the first time in his life, my Paladin has no more money problems).

Although I did buy him bags when he just started out. Does that count?

[moopy]

It's just a wise investment :-) I wish my shammy had no more money problems, but I am finally bothering to finish levelling enchanting (the +20 healing on ring enchant is calling to me), and that's a costly business. Doing five dailies on both my hunter and shammy (when I have time) is helping a lot, too.

[VizjereiSerbia]

Ok I can understand the fact that twinks love to play the game as they do. All I am saying is that it is unfair to newbies who don't have the support of high level character who can send items and money(I have personally NEVER send a single item or copper to any of my alts, but i don't think it's in any way wring to do so).
In BGs people need to learn to cooperate and work in a team, in order to achieve victory. How are they gonna learn if they get pummeled by twinks all the time? I mean non-twink players rarely get the chance to anything but throw around a few hits or spells before they are killed in 1 hit by some twink rogue. What did they learn about using their class in a group? Absolutely nothing!
P.S. To all those twinks who said they don't single out the non-twinks and focus on killing them instead of battling other twinks - I respect that, but you are 1 in a million because I see twinks deliberately chasing down low levels and newbies and choosing that over battling enemy twinks in EVERY single BG I've been to!!!

[dgrampa]

What has this to do with it? It's not about sending nice stuff to your alts, it's about spending 1,000g on a character (esp. on enchants) to make it completely overpowered compared to a player with a 1st character in the BGs. Having some nice gear isn't twinking.

For all those in favour of twinking I may ask: what's so bad about always having level playing fields where teamwork and skill actually matters more than gear?

If I gimp myself by not obtaining the best gear I can, I run the risk of being killed by someone simply because they have better gear. These days there are more twinks in the BGs than there are non-twinks.

It is easy to twink a character enough to be competetive. You can craft a budget twink in the time it takes to QQ on the forums. I have no sympathy for a new player stepping in to the BGs for the first time and getting his butt handed to him. That's the way any game should work. More experience = more knowledge of the game and its mechanics. A new player should not be able to compete with someone who has been playing for 2+ years without doing a minimum amount of research and putting in a minimum amount of effort.

When a new player steps into the BGs for the first time and gets one-shotted over and over, he has 2 options:

Learn how to get better.
Cry and/or quit the game.

I have no respect for the latter.

Ok I can understand the fact that twinks love to play the game as they do. All I am saying is that it is unfair to newbies who don't have the support of high level character who can send items and money(I have personally NEVER send a single item or copper to any of my alts, but i don't think it's in any way wring to do so).
In BGs people need to learn to cooperate and work in a team, in order to achieve victory. How are they gonna learn if they get pummeled by twinks all the time? I mean non-twink players rarely get the chance to anything but throw around a few hits or spells before they are killed in 1 hit by some twink rogue. What did they learn about using their class in a group? Absolutely nothing!
P.S. To all those twinks who said they don't single out the non-twinks and focus on killing them instead of battling other twinks - I respect that, but you are 1 in a million because I see twinks deliberately chasing down low levels and newbies and choosing that over battling enemy twinks in EVERY single BG I've been to!!!

What did they learn? They learned that this game is all about gear and they need better gear to compete. (No, they don't need to spend hundreds of gold to compete. Yes even a level 10 toon can farm enough gold by the time he turns 19 to get the basic enchants needed to compete without any assistance from a high level toon. All it takes is an hour worth of research.)

[Dhoum]

When a new player steps into the BGs for the first time and gets one-shotted over and over, he has 2 options:

Learn how to get better.
Cry and/or quit the game.

I have no respect for the latter.
I would agree to a certain extent, but when facing twinks, it is impossible for new players to compete or learn. Even if I'm playing a flawless game, if somebody's twinked a toon to have godly stamina, movement rate and/or dodge, there is nothing I can do regardless how well I play. When the odds are stacked so heavily against you that it is almost impossible to win, there is no learning to be done ... just a cost/benefit analysis: "Is being constantly ganked by these cocks worth the gear I'm trying to get?"

It's ok though, I have no respect for twinks or their supporters, nor need or desire for their respect.

Yes even a level 10 toon can farm enough gold by the time he turns 19 to get the basic enchants needed to compete without any assistance from a high level toon. All it takes is an hour worth of research.)
So either your server economy is desperately skewed, or you are suggesting that people hover at 19 farming ore in grey zones. What about all the advice that tells us not to spend money on upgrades at low levels?

You don't seem to understand that I'm not interested in competing with twinks. I don't want to have to have to equip my characters beyond what is normal for levelling.

The battleground game is completely different when played by non-twinks. Tactics and technique become important, and the learning curve is actually worthwhile. In those circumstances there is room to improve your game, and yes obviously experience will give a huge advantage ... as it should.

Let the twinks fight with each other in their own league and leave those of us who don't want to play that game to get on with enjoying the game our way. With technique being the defining factor in winning a battle, rather than imbalanced gear.

[dgrampa]

I would agree to a certain extent, but when facing twinks, it is impossible for new players to compete or learn. Even if I'm playing a flawless game, if somebody's twinked a toon to have godly stamina, movement rate and/or dodge, there is nothing I can do regardless how well I play. When the odds are stacked so heavily against you that it is almost impossible to win, there is no learning to be done ... just a cost/benefit analysis: "Is being constantly ganked by these cocks worth the gear I'm trying to get?"

That's why I said they learn that they need better gear. That is the first lesson in a gear-based game.

It's ok though, I have no respect for twinks or their supporters, nor need or desire for their respect.

Good for you, you have no respect for people who play the game the way it was designed (within the current ruleset).

So either your server economy is desperately skewed, or you are suggesting that people hover at 19 farming ore in grey zones. What about all the advice that tells us not to spend money on upgrades at low levels?

If you pick up mining at level 5, and sell all the ore you mine by the time you reach 19 you should easily have 50g or more in the bank. That is plenty of gold to get some stamina enchants and a fiery or 2. Run DM/WC a few times on the way for your drops and quest rewards. You don't need anything more than that to compete.

And who gave you that advice? If you are planning on leveling up, then yeah you don't want to waste gold on equipment that will be obsolete in a day or 2. But if you plan on camping a bracket, you need to gear up a bit. Are you suggesting that we all should gear down so you don't have to gear up like the rest of us?

You don't seem to understand that I'm not interested in competing with twinks. I don't want to have to have to equip my characters beyond what is normal for levelling.

Then you don't want to put in the effort to be competetive. That is fine, but everyone else has the right to do so, and it doesn't make us bad people.

The battleground game is completely different when played by non-twinks. Tactics and technique become important, and the learning curve is actually worthwhile. In those circumstances there is room to improve your game, and yes obviously experience will give a huge advantage ... as it should.

You think tactics and techniques are important when half the people in the BG are still learning the layout of the BG? You should see how tactics they are when you have 2 full premades of 1000g twinks (all of whom have been playing WSG for over a year and know all the tricks and hiding spots) going head to head, when any simple mistake by even one person can cost you the match.

Let the twinks fight with each other in their own league and leave those of us who don't want to play that game to get on with enjoying the game our way. With technique being the defining factor in winning a battle, rather than imbalanced gear.

The PvP in this game will always be about gear as well as technique. Gear is the CORE of this game.

[Findariel]

The PvP in this game will always be about gear as well as technique. Gear is the CORE of this game.
Especially gear. That's a bit sad about this game and GW is far superiour in terms of PvP. That Blizz even encourages it by allowing ridicoulsy overpowered twinks makes it even more sad.
So I get most kills in a BG because I am a twink or because I play smart and know to play my class? This way we can never really know if you're a good player, only if you're a rich player.

My personal opinion ofc. I just like tactics and skill > gear but it's just not meant to be in WoW.

[VizjereiSerbia]

I am absolutely with Dhoum on this matter. Why should we have to spend obscene amounts of gold just so we can be even with some prick who gets a kick out of having the best gear and enchants possible and so he can mutilate any non-twink? I don't want to compete with such people, I wanna keep as far away as possible from them!
And dgrampa don't give me that crap about twinking is the way the game was meant to be played. Lets be honest, twinking doesn't require any skill at all, just a large time and money investment. So we are all supposed to respect and look up to twinks as the way to go? HELL NO!!!
And what's all this about gear being the core of the game crap? Yes gear is the most important thing in WOW but in the way that if you want good gear, you gotta level up and learn how to play, not grind BGs for 2 years. If you're so tough, why don't you level up and and actually prove it by fighting in a higher level bracket(and not spend another 2 years grinding to get the gear for it)?
As far as I'm concerned, twink all you want and keep telling yourself how great you are, but keep it out of the way of normal players who actually wanna play the game with skill not overpowered gear!

[moopy]

By the by, someone was asking for an enchant on trade last night, and I replied that I could do it- did he have mats, and how much was he proposing to pay for my time.. He responded that he wasn't planning on paying anything for the service- despite the fact that I was the only enchanter who had offered him the enchant. His please of "plz, im a twink and i need it for tommorow" kinda sealed the (lack of) deal. Travel to SW and blow an ancestral recall CD to do a low-level enchant without payment - for a twink? The only fun aspect of having them around is to gouge them for the enchants on their overpriced gear :-)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

What has this to do with it? It's not about sending nice stuff to your alts, it's about spending 1,000g on a character (esp. on enchants) to make it completely overpowered compared to a player with a 1st character in the BGs. Having some nice gear isn't twinking.

Actually, that is exactly what "twinking" has meant for years, even before WoW -- Twinking was the "art" of giving a character stuff he/she did not get him or herself. Typically it was from a high-level character to a low-level character, in most situations, due to the nature of this, it was between two characters owned by the same player.

The PvP'ers in WoW decided to change what Twinking meant, as a kind of insult, but since not everyone was aware of the semantic change that the PvP'ers did, it causes quite a bit of confusion -- and I dare say that the confusion is completely intentional on the part of many PvP'ers, just to then turn and criticize people.

For all those in favour of twinking I may ask: what's so bad about always having level playing fields where teamwork and skill actually matters more than gear?

Nothing. Honestly, I care very little about gear. Gear is relatively worthless, it is transitory, fleeting, always replaceable.

So either your server economy is desperately skewed, or you are suggesting that people hover at 19 farming ore in grey zones. What about all the advice that tells us not to spend money on upgrades at low levels?

Actually, Dgrampa is the person who argued in support of gold-sellers claiming they didn't impact his server economy (unlike everywhere else, what has been reported by census-sites, and even Blizzard's employees themselves), so I'd guess his economy is a bit skewed already. I'm just saying...

You don't seem to understand that I'm not interested in competing with twinks. I don't want to have to have to equip my characters beyond what is normal for levelling.

I don't blame you, I don't like going up against twinks myself. But then again, I don't like Battlegrounds in the slightest -- I've been slowly (very slowly) working on the PvP mount for my dwarf hunter, and I am honestly revolted by the battleground grind.

Let the twinks fight with each other in their own league and leave those of us who don't want to play that game to get on with enjoying the game our way. With technique being the defining factor in winning a battle, rather than imbalanced gear.

Would be nice, in a perfect world. However, the problem is... there isn't enough people who play battlegrounds to do that kind of a split. As such, the BG'ers have to basically suffer.

[Dhoum]

You think tactics and techniques are important when half the people in the BG are still learning the layout of the BG?
Yes, because there will be people there who have different levels of expertise, who will know where to go and what to do. These experienced people will prove a real but not insurmountable challenge to less experienced players who will be able to learn from each battleground they participate in ... win or lose.

You should see how tactics they are when you have 2 full premades of 1000g twinks (all of whom have been playing WSG for over a year and know all the tricks and hiding spots) going head to head, when any simple mistake by even one person can cost you the match.
I imagine that's awesome, which is why I think twinks should get their own league where they can play the kind of game you describe above. Blizzard tried this and, sadly, failed and I can't see them taking any steps to fix the character balancing process.

[Findariel]

I imagine that's awesome, which is why I think twinks should get their own league where they can play the kind of game you describe above. Blizzard tried this and, sadly, failed and I can't see them taking any steps to fix the character balancing process.
A pity that there isn't s a system that decides if you're a twink or not - say when the sum of your stats exceeds a certain number - so you get your own twink bracket.

Of course the battlegroups should be extended/merged because there isn't too many players in the low brackets to start with (but that's also partially due to people being discouraged by twinks).

[moopy]

Of course the battlegroups should be extended/merged because there isn't too many players in the low brackets to start with (but that's also partially due to people being discouraged by twinks).

Almost enitirely, for new players these days. People who have started post-TBC look at the BG rewards, resolve to earn some, and merrily queue for a BG- then regret it instantly, with dark imprecations along the lines of "<gently caress> that for a game of soldiers", avoiding PvP completely until lv 70. Shame, PvP used to be a nice break from the levelling grind before the peeners took over.

[Etrin]

I have shouted about twinks since BG. OK take a 70 with 2-5K extra gold...mail it to the alt and buy EVERYTHING needed to kick butt yep give me 2 of those,,some of those,, oh hell yes 100K enchants a few of those on each weapon and yes give me some of those 2k potions. I said a long time ago BG should have been another world...take a chr there and you are seperated from your alts and the old game.

Think of the noob to the game...he is 19 and has 2G and maybe a blue...ROFL he is toast in 5 seconds
WAY to make friends buzzard. OF course they could care less..
FUNNY the first thing they holler when they NERF is balance.....POOR EXCUSE from a poor planner...more to the point no planning and no testing...just greed

[Kugan]

I have shouted about twinks since BG. OK take a 70 with 2-5K extra gold...mail it to the alt and buy EVERYTHING needed to kick butt yep give me 2 of those,,some of those,, oh hell yes 100K enchants a few of those on each weapon and yes give me some of those 2k potions. I said a long time ago BG should have been another world...take a chr there and you are seperated from your alts and the old game.

If you buy an enchant for 100k, you won't have 2k left for even one potion out of your 2-5k gold :wink:

[moopy]

Kugan's logic crits you for 32768.
You die.

(as ever!)

[Etrin]

oh heck Kugan you know what I mean...gold is nothing to a lot of 70 players.
they want this and that...cost means nothing.

[Etrin]

wow moopy that was close...I thought you were going to have to go for single or double.

[Durpia]

I like to make twinks on servers that I have no main on cause it gives me a challenge and i have to be smart about my gold. I have a 70 so I know what it's like to level. It's pvp don't get mad if you die cause both sides have twinks and i go into BG's all the time with non twinks and tend to do good still... so yeah it's more of a skill factor but gear does help.

[moopy]

wow moopy that was close...I thought you were going to have to go for single or double.

Whistled way over my head, I'm afraid. Shall I look pre-emptively scared, will that help?

[xDarkDrifterx]

What has this to do with it? It's not about sending nice stuff to your alts, it's about spending 1,000g on a character (esp. on enchants) to make it completely overpowered compared to a player with a 1st character in the BGs. Having some nice gear isn't twinking.

Yeah that's what 1/2 of us think but others have a different definition apparently now.

There was another thread here recently about the twink topic . . . apparently all you have to do is send an alt some gear . . . not even good gear . . . oh and also level 70's can be twinks now apparently . . . not to get anyone rehashing that thread (seems a bit late anyways), but lets just say that all these players have now decided that if they have ubber gear w/ enchants etc right after they ding 70 sent to them by one of their other chars then they are twinks, etc etc etc.

Twinks aren't just OP chars in BG's on the 9's anymore apparently . . . I could send my little warrior a blue sword with an enchant and now she is a twink lol apparently it doesn't matter that I still have only 600 health and all greens :ponder:

Here's that other twink thread:

http://wow.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404456&highlight=twinks

How are they gonna learn if they get pummeled by twinks all the time? I mean non-twink players rarely get the chance to anything but throw around a few hits or spells before they are killed in 1 hit by some twink rogue. What did they learn about using their class in a group? Absolutely nothing!

I learned alot and did just fine against twinks on my hunter - for every bg you get full of twinks you get one with only a few.
And also, bg's are pvp - they aren't there to help you learn your group role. You learn your group role IMO doing instances and group quests.

If I gimp myself by not obtaining the best gear I can, I run the risk of being killed by someone simply because they have better gear. These days there are more twinks in the BGs than there are non-twinks.

It is easy to twink a character enough to be competetive. You can craft a budget twink in the time it takes to QQ on the forums. I have no sympathy for a new player stepping in to the BGs for the first time and getting his butt handed to him. That's the way any game should work. More experience = more knowledge of the game and its mechanics. A new player should not be able to compete with someone who has been playing for 2+ years without doing a minimum amount of research and putting in a minimum amount of effort.

When a new player steps into the BGs for the first time and gets one-shotted over and over, he has 2 options:

Learn how to get better.
Cry and/or quit the game.

I have no respect for the latter.

What did they learn? They learned that this game is all about gear and they need better gear to compete. (No, they don't need to spend hundreds of gold to compete. Yes even a level 10 toon can farm enough gold by the time he turns 19 to get the basic enchants needed to compete without any assistance from a high level toon. All it takes is an hour worth of research.)


You had me agreeeing until "Yes even a level 10 toon can farm enough gold by the time he turns 19 to get the basic enchants needed to compete without any assistance from a high level toon" - I 100% disagree with this sentence - a first time, never played wow before, no friends on the server, lvl 19 player is supposed to be able to farm 40-80 gold for some enchants by lvl 19 . . . . not gonna happen IMO - most of us didn't even have all greens the first time around when we hit lvl 19 . . . but besides this I agree with most of your post there. Now if this was like your 2nd or 3rd lvl 19 + then heck yeah it's possible, just not your first time through IMO.

If you pick up mining at level 5, and sell all the ore you mine by the time you reach 19 you should easily have 50g or more in the bank. That is plenty of gold to get some stamina enchants and a fiery or 2. Run DM/WC a few times on the way for your drops and quest rewards. You don't need anything more than that to compete.
.

This is server based, and what you may be able to make on your server for ore is not what others can make on theirs.

I am absolutely with Dhoum on this matter. Why should we have to spend obscene amounts of gold just so we can be even with some prick who gets a kick out of having the best gear and enchants possible and so he can mutilate any non-twink? I don't want to compete with such people, I wanna keep as far away as possible from them!!

Why not grind BG's for the gear and weapons that come free with honor? many twinks / semi-twinks have several pieces of bg gear and or weapons - those are free and what made my hunter main able to stand up against twinks when I was leveling up. I saved honor and got the new pieces when I hit the right level @ every level along the way.

Think of the noob to the game...he is 19 and has 2G and maybe a blue...ROFL he is toast in 5 seconds


Do you realize that many of the twink items used in bg's are obtained from instances and completing quests . . . you don't need to buy the petrospill leggings and put a clefthide armor kit on them to be able to last and kill people in bg's . . . read up . . things like the fishing hat etc are rewards and are freebies . . .

_________

Always an interesting topic =)

[VizjereiSerbia]

Twinks aren't just OP chars in BG's on the 9's anymore apparently . . . I could send my little warrior a blue sword with an enchant and now she is a twink lol apparently it doesn't matter that I still have only 600 health and all greens :ponder:

I absolutely don't consider characters like yours twinks. It's not just about weapons,it's combination of both that and otherwise inaccessible armor and most importantly-enchants.
Example: While doing WSG (10-19 bracket) with my paladin, I started to heal the twink priest that was carrying the flag, and noticed that she had way more life than me or the non-twink warrior I healed a second ago! Upon asking how much mana she has the reply was 2000ish(don't remember the exact number)! I mean, thats the mana my warlock main has at level 35!

[xDarkDrifterx]

I absolutely don't consider characters like yours twinks. I

You misread what I said, thus the confused emoticon after that statement. I don't consider that a twink either.

[Shellar]

The problem is inherent in the nature of PvP system. If PvE progress is a ladder, PvP progress is a ladder with the bottom rungs being constantly sawed off. Unless you happen to be one of the lucky few who happened to jump on the gravy train when it just launched and are willing to invest a lot of time into improving your equipment, you will always be an a significant disadvantage against those who a) started earlier or b) spend more time and resources on collecting PvP gear. After a while, this disadvantage becomes pretty much unsurmountable, leading to the feelings of hopelessness described by my esteemed colleagues.

In my opinion, the twinks are merely the messengers here - it is better for a player to become disillusioned in the PvP system and learn about the facts of life by getting killed in 10-19 WSG, then to level to 70, blissfully rush into an Arena, and get promptly vaporized by a warrior with 5/5 merciless gladiator and a Stormherald (at a 1600 rating, no less). At least, at level 19, you still have the option of levelling and upper brackets to look forward to. Once you get to endgame, there's nowhere left to run.

[Duke Brand]

oh heck Kugan you know what I mean...gold is nothing to a lot of 70 players.
they want this and that...cost means nothing.

ooo.....that's me......


BTW..... I just pwned a 39 twink rogue with my 34 non twink rogue using duel cruel barbs still as weapons. Skill is >gear. But without decent gear it's alot harder to win..

[Janfader]

There are Twink Guilds. I think that says it all really. Many people thrive on becoming/having the best enchant/gear for their max twink level. Why else play the game really? If you have a lvl 70 main character who has experienced end game pre-bc and BC.. then by all means roll up a twink. What else is there to do?

Peace,
Janfader

[rottentomato]

i still remember my first BG experience...ran WSG as a 14 rogue, got ganked i dont know how many times, found a lot of respect for the twinks who were out there doing GOBS of damage and killing people...waited until 19, tried it again thinking it was just a level difference, got ganked about 64732647823 times again, and all i could think was... DAMN i want to do that. made me try hard as hell to get gold and earn gear eventually for a twink of my own, and i totally fell in love with it.

do i think its unfair? no...it just shows new players to the game exactly what is possible, and give them something to look forward to later on when they become wealthy.

[Kugan]

i still remember my first BG experience...ran WSG as a 14 rogue, got ganked i dont know how many times, found a lot of respect for the twinks who were out there doing GOBS of damage and killing people...waited until 19, tried it again thinking it was just a level difference, got ganked about 64732647823 times again, and all i could think was... DAMN i want to do that. made me try hard as hell to get gold and earn gear eventually for a twink of my own, and i totally fell in love with it.

do i think its unfair? no...it just shows new players to the game exactly what is possible, and give them something to look forward to later on when they become wealthy.

I thought that I was just crap.

And to be honest, I was just crap.

Talent points thrown into random stuff I though looked cool. Only nine abilities on my toolbar and all of them rank 1. Keyboard turning *shudders*.

All the gear/enchants in the world wouldn’t have saved me. :embarassed:

[moopy]

All the gear/enchants in the world wouldn’t have saved me. :embarassed:

My poor little priest's first BG.. I ran into a rogue, *blamblamblamblamblam* dead. I was quite saddened by that, she hadn't done anything to deserve that. Soon learned to play a little more defensively, though.

[dgrampa]

Sheesh, I go watch a movie for a few hours while I wait for servers to come back up and the thread explodes. I'm not going to spend the next few hours disecting 2 pages worth of angry posts with multi quotes so I'll spell it out plain and simple as best as I can.

First of all I'll address Xlorep, since he HAD to chime in with the gold selling issue that has nothing to do with this thread. Do us all a favor and take it back to the thread you mysteriously stopped posting in after I pointed out more of the flaws in your argument. I hope in the last month you came up with better evidence to support your logic than 'prices have gone up on all servers,' as that is easily explained by how much easier it is to make gold since the release of BC. By the way, for the record, I DO NOT support gold-selling, I just claim that the economy has nothing to do with it.

Now that that hijack has been dealt with we can move on to the topic at hand.

The biggest fallacy being promoted in this thread is that it takes a lot of gold to twink. This comes from people's ignorance of what really goes into twinking. They see an http://wowdigger.com/item/view/1935/assassin039s-blade on the AH for 500g and they think that it is necessary for their 19 rogue to compete. First of all, you all need to understand that just because something is listed on the AH at some rediculous price, does not mean that is what it actually sells for. I personally picked up both of my http://wowdigger.com/item/view/1935/assassin039s-blades for less than 100g each.

Now, I realize 100g is a lot of money for any new player, but what the rest of you need to realize is that it is not necessary. It is simply the top of the line, best of the best, only worth it if you are anal and need the absolute best possible gear for your twink, type of item that gets overpriced accordingly. If you simply do a few BGs you can get this http://wowdigger.com/item/view/20443/sentinel039s-blade for free. You are not going to be able to tell the difference between these 2 blades AT ALL when you are fighting.

Now you have your dagger for ambushes for FREE. Lets add to the list of gear that is also free:

http://wowdigger.com/item/view/19972/lucky-fishing-hat
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/5191/cruel-barbx2
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/20437/outrider039s-bow
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/19969/nat-pagle039s-extreme-anglin039-boots
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/20444/sentinel039s-medallion
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/10399/blackened-defias-armor
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/2041/tunic-of-westfall
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/10657/talbar-mantle
http://wowdigger.com/item/view/10410/leggings-of-the-fang

This is just a partial list and they are all FREE. Anyone can enter WSG with just this free gear and compete with 95% of the toons they come across. You can also pick up many low level stamina enchants for free from people power leveling enchanting. If you are smart and mined enough copper ore to save up a modest nest egg of 30-50g you can even spring for those 2 fiery's and a run speed to boots, and you'll be able to compete with 99%. Or even better spend the 50g on a clefthide leg armor and a decent BoE pair of legs to put it on.

All the expensive enchants are gravy. The difference between a cheap fiery and an expensive crusader is minimal at best.

As for the naysayers that don't think you can make money selling copper are misinformed. Copper ore routinely sells for 1g a stack accross all servers. No it won't sell for that much every day, but a couple days a week the supply will dry up and you will be able to list it for 1.5g a stack, and it will sell before you make it back to your mailbox. Copper ore/bars are in huge demand, ALWAYS. It is used to powerlevel mining/smelting, blacksmithing, engineering, and now jewelcrafting. Tin ore sells for even more. I have listed tin ore for 3.5g a stack and got the sold message before I left the AH, on many many occasions.

To those that stop PvPing after 19 in hopes that 70 is better, you are in for a big surprise. As someone said earlier, better to learn now at 19 than after you waste time leveling to 70.

Last but not least I will return to Xlorep and I will quote for emphasis:
I don't blame you, I don't like going up against twinks myself. But then again, I don't like Battlegrounds in the slightest -- I've been slowly (very slowly) working on the PvP mount for my dwarf hunter, and I am honestly revolted by the battleground grind.

Why play a game if you don't enjoy it?

EDIT: I can't for the life of me find the button to link items properly...

[odinsnephew]

When I hit level 10 "back in the day" a friend kept pestering me "come to WSG, its hilarious".

I did and it was "hilarious" to a point. Mind you I was decked out in such amazing grey items and was wearing a red suit of cloth....I really didnt know what hit me. Ahh, those were the days ;)

Edit: Chill out Gramps :)

[Kugan]

My poor little priest's first BG.. I ran into a rogue, *blamblamblamblamblam* dead. I was quite saddened by that, she hadn't done anything to deserve that. Soon learned to play a little more defensively, though.

Awwww. Poor Moopy. You didn’t deserve that :cry:. Want me to kill da big bad Rogue? Or do you think you can take care of yourself now? :wink:


To those that stop PvPing after 19 in hopes that 70 is better, you are in for a big surprise. As someone said earlier, better to learn now at 19 than after you waste time leveling to 70.

Last but not least I will return to Xlorep and I will quote for emphasis:


Why play a game if you don't enjoy it?

Hehe. I still disagree. At level 19 there is still so much to learn that this might be a bit too much. Baby steps.

I’ll rather fight twinks.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

First of all I'll address Xlorep, since he HAD to chime in with the gold selling issue that has nothing to do with this thread. Do us all a favor and take it back to the thread you mysteriously stopped posting in after I pointed out more of the flaws in your argument. I hope in the last month you came up with better evidence to support your logic than 'prices have gone up on all servers,' as that is easily explained by how much easier it is to make gold since the release of BC. By the way, for the record, I DO NOT support gold-selling, I just claim that the economy has nothing to do with it.

Hah, yes, I did have to chime in. Had a bunch of emergencies at work which prevented me from posting for a few days in that thread, and when I had the time to, it had been long enough that I felt it was no longer worth the effort to continue posting (even if someone today decided to play thread necromancy on it). I provided evidence in that thread you simply refused to accept, and you were constantly running through a circular logic and begging the question tactics that made it rather... dull and pointless to continue. Can't argue with someone who refuses to even acknowledge there may be validity in the other side's arguments.

You still insist that the economy has nothing to do with it, despite even Blizzard themselves having stated that Gold-selling does impact server economies. You are the one needing a burden of proof to contradict what is established, and failed to do so.

My jab in this thread is because of your rapid off-handed discarding of the statement I made which points out there are servers that inflation had exploded on, the same servers where gold-selling had run somewhat rampant on, resulting in vast differences between one server's prices on the AH vs others. Your reaction was that since it wasn't official information straight from Blizzard, it automatically was incorrect, despite being information gathered from multiple different, independent sources, with absolutely no reason to collaborate with each other in some vast conspiracy to make one server's prices appear higher than other servers. But so be it.

I also never said you were supporting Gold Sellers, just that your arguments were effectively doing so.

Why play a game if you don't enjoy it?

If you take what I said in-context, I had said I wanted the PvP gnome mount. That is why I grind through Battlegrounds. If you had also paid attention, I said I didn't care for PvP in the slightest. Why do the Battlegrounds then? Because as my Hunter is a Dwarf, she already has done every quest which gives + Gnomeregan Exiles reputation, and her Gnomer rep is only barely into Honored (she did so before the rep gain changes took place). I don't like the Batlegrounds and PvP in general, but I hate gathering Runecloth for reputation to push to Exalted more. And, like I said, I want the Gnome mount for her. So, I'm left with doing something I don't like, or doing something I really detest as my choices, if I want that mount. I'll take the lesser of two evils, thank-you very much.

Fortunately, I have other characters to switch to when I get tired of the Battlegrounds (usually after getting one or two more marks of honor). And thank God there is more to do in this game other than PvP or battlegrounds (or raids, or instances).

[dgrampa]

Hah, yes, I did have to chime in. Had a bunch of emergencies at work which prevented me from posting for a few days in that thread, and when I had the time to, it had been long enough that I felt it was no longer worth the effort to continue posting (even if someone today decided to play thread necromancy on it). I provided evidence in that thread you simply refused to accept, and you were constantly running through a circular logic and begging the question tactics that made it rather... dull and pointless to continue. Can't argue with someone who refuses to even acknowledge there may be validity in the other side's arguments.

You still insist that the economy has nothing to do with it, despite even Blizzard themselves having stated that Gold-selling does impact server economies. You are the one needing a burden of proof to contradict what is established, and failed to do so.

My jab in this thread is because of your rapid off-handed discarding of the statement I made which points out there are servers that inflation had exploded on, the same servers where gold-selling had run somewhat rampant on, resulting in vast differences between one server's prices on the AH vs others. Your reaction was that since it wasn't official information straight from Blizzard, it automatically was incorrect, despite being information gathered from multiple different, independent sources, with absolutely no reason to collaborate with each other in some vast conspiracy to make one server's prices appear higher than other servers. But so be it.

I also never said you were supporting Gold Sellers, just that your arguments were effectively doing so.

Ha, you keep telling me what Blizzard 'has said' yet fail to provide a source to back up your claims. I have seen no evidence other than your claims. You have already shown your potential do misinterpret data to mean whatever backs up your claims. My guess is that you read somewhere that Blizzard stated something like:

Legal gold selling can mess up an online economy.
The economy on some servers are currently messed up (though maybe it was from the duping problem they had)

Meanwhile I back up my claims with simple logic:

Current server economies are fine, despite the fact that hundreds of gold selling transactions take place every day.
Blizzard has managed to create a near perfect 'closed system' where the only way to create gold has the side effect of also creating more items, thus balancing the supply vs. the demand.
If server economies were in trouble (as you claim) then why did Blizzard create daily quests, which actually do create more gold out of thin air?

The answer to the last one is that when Blizzard banned thousands of accounts and removed millions of gold from the economy, it actually had the negative effect where there was too much supply. Suddenly something that used to sell for 100g couldn't sell for 20g because there was as much demand. All the items were still there from farming but the gold was no longer there to purchase them.

Good job on the derailment though, we are now firmly off topic.

If you take what I said in-context, I had said I wanted the PvP gnome mount. That is why I grind through Battlegrounds. If you had also paid attention, I said I didn't care for PvP in the slightest. Why do the Battlegrounds then? Because as my Hunter is a Dwarf, she already has done every quest which gives + Gnomeregan Exiles reputation, and her Gnomer rep is only barely into Honored (she did so before the rep gain changes took place). I don't like the Batlegrounds and PvP in general, but I hate gathering Runecloth for reputation to push to Exalted more. And, like I said, I want the Gnome mount for her. So, I'm left with doing something I don't like, or doing something I really detest as my choices, if I want that mount. I'll take the lesser of two evils, thank-you very much.

Fortunately, I have other characters to switch to when I get tired of the Battlegrounds (usually after getting one or two more marks of honor). And thank God there is more to do in this game other than PvP or battlegrounds (or raids, or instances).

No no, I understand completely. You spend your free time doing something you don't like for the carrot on the end of the stick. Good luck with that.:thumbsup:

[piscene]

it just shows new players to the game exactly what is possible, and give them something to look forward to later on when they become wealthy.

There are Twink Guilds. I think that says it all really. Many people thrive on becoming/having the best enchant/gear for their max twink level. Why else play the game really? If you have a lvl 70 main character who has experienced end game pre-bc and BC.. then by all means roll up a twink. What else is there to do?

Hope you don't mind going back on-topic.

These are 2 excellent points. It does give newer players a glimpse of the possibilities, and it also gives end-game players something new to look forward to.

For myself, I am not yet ready to invest the necessary time to build a twink, so I won't be going to the BGs right now. That is my choice; you get to choose what is more important to you, and then choose the appropriate course of action.

[VizjereiSerbia]

If you are smart and mined enough copper ore to save up a modest nest egg of 30-50g
As for the naysayers that don't think you can make money selling copper are misinformed. Copper ore routinely sells for 1g a stack accross all servers. No it won't sell for that much every day, but a couple days a week the supply will dry up and you will be able to list it for 1.5g a stack, and it will sell before you make it back to your mailbox. Copper ore/bars are in huge demand, ALWAYS. It is used to powerlevel mining/smelting, blacksmithing, engineering, and now jewelcrafting. Tin ore sells for even more. I have listed tin ore for 3.5g a stack and got the sold message before I left the AH, on many many occasions.

True but take this into consideration-make 30-50g from copper ore/bars you would have to have mined 30-50 stacks of ore! You may call me ignorant, but 30-50 stacks of ore till lvl 19? I don't believe to have seen a copper mine and you sure as hell can't get that kind of ore unless you go out with the purpose of mining ore all day, which is again just grinding(which most players I know wouldn't do during their normal leveling)!

[caldepen]

there are arguments on both sides, but it doesn't look like it is going to change so why bother argue? Unless you spend a lot of time you will never be able to go toe to toe with a decent twink (you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise) but that does not mean you can't do a little preparation and be able to enjoy yourself and at least team up with others and still have fun.

[dgrampa]

True but take this into consideration-make 30-50g from copper ore/bars you would have to have mined 30-50 stacks of ore! You may call me ignorant, but 30-50 stacks of ore till lvl 19? I don't believe to have seen a copper mine and you sure as hell can't get that kind of ore unless you go out with the purpose of mining ore all day, which is again just grinding(which most players I know wouldn't do during their normal leveling)!

I personally mined 300 copper ore in 2 hours on a level 14 paladin doing laps in Dun Morogh. You can do the same in Elwynn, Teldrassil, Durotar, Mulgore and Tirisfall. Copper nodes are literally everywhere. Once you reach 14 or so you can move to Silverpine, Barrens, Loch Modan, Darkshore and Westfall to add Tin and OMG Silver which sells for insane amounts.

there are arguments on both sides, but it doesn't look like it is going to change so why bother argue? Unless you spend a lot of time you will never be able to go toe to toe with a decent twink (you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise) but that does not mean you can't do a little preparation and be able to enjoy yourself and at least team up with others and still have fun.

Very well stated, just because you can't beat a full twink one on one does not mean you can't contribute to a team. You do however need a minimum of gear and contrary to popular belief, that minimum is not that much.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

No no, I understand completely. You spend your free time doing something you don't like for the carrot on the end of the stick. Good luck with that.:thumbsup:

I'm sorry if the idea of a "character concept" is somewhat unfamiliar to you. I have a particular concept I have strove to ensure my dwarf hunter follows, a "guiding principle", as it is, to decisions I have made in her development. That "guiding principle" has led to me wanting the one mechanical mount available in-game, the Gnomish Battlestrider. The downside of this is I have to actually work toward it, I can't just get it easily. There have been great strides made in recent months to alleviate the frustration of grinding reputation, particularly for the races of a specific faction (in this case, Alliance), however those changes were not made retroactively to affect the reputation gains characters received for quests they already had completed. Otherwise, I would have simply finished up what was needed for Exalted with Gnomeregan, and been done.

You seem quick to attempt to undermine my position here, maybe because you feel some personal anger toward me because of our opposing sides of the goldseller-impact arguments. However, when it all is said and done, there is simply certain things I want for my characters, and I do what I need to acquire those things (within the rules). How is that any different than the person who joins raids to get gear (but doesn't necessarily care for raiding itself)? I weigh each choice I've made with my characters against the cost, and despite my personal loathing of PvP (which developed over a decade and a half of PvP-focused online play), I see it as an acceptable cost for the reward at the end. If that's something you feel as worthy of mocking, so be it, but I bet there are more people who are willing to take what they feel as "acceptable costs" to accomplish/achieve things they desire than not.

[dgrampa]

I'm sorry if the idea of a "character concept" is somewhat unfamiliar to you. I have a particular concept I have strove to ensure my dwarf hunter follows, a "guiding principle", as it is, to decisions I have made in her development. That "guiding principle" has led to me wanting the one mechanical mount available in-game, the Gnomish Battlestrider. The downside of this is I have to actually work toward it, I can't just get it easily. There have been great strides made in recent months to alleviate the frustration of grinding reputation, particularly for the races of a specific faction (in this case, Alliance), however those changes were not made retroactively to affect the reputation gains characters received for quests they already had completed. Otherwise, I would have simply finished up what was needed for Exalted with Gnomeregan, and been done.

You seem quick to attempt to undermine my position here, maybe because you feel some personal anger toward me because of our opposing sides of the goldseller-impact arguments. However, when it all is said and done, there is simply certain things I want for my characters, and I do what I need to acquire those things (within the rules). How is that any different than the person who joins raids to get gear (but doesn't necessarily care for raiding itself)? I weigh each choice I've made with my characters against the cost, and despite my personal loathing of PvP (which developed over a decade and a half of PvP-focused online play), I see it as an acceptable cost for the reward at the end. If that's something you feel as worthy of mocking, so be it, but I bet there are more people who are willing to take what they feel as "acceptable costs" to accomplish/achieve things they desire than not.

Sorry, I don't like it when people spread misinformation. One of my pet peeves that really gets under my skin. I hate to think of all the people who come away from a thread like this one hating twinks for no other reason than 'they read somewhere how it hurts the game.' There are enough people in this world who already hate twinks for the wrong reasons, we don't need any more. Every twink argument boils down to the fact that twinks make PvP harder for other people. Well news flash for everyone - PvP is not supposed to be easy. I don't know where everyone got the idea that it is supposed to be easy. Maybe because leveling is easy, and questing is easy, and making gold is easy, they just assume everything in the game is supposed to be easy.

I also hate to think of all the people who came away from the other thread thinking gold selling hurts the WoW economy just because they read somewhere that 'Xlorep said Blizzard said so.' Not that it affects me in any way, but I like to stop misinformation whenever I encounter it.

[xDarkDrifterx]

I also hate to think of all the people who came away from the other thread thinking gold selling hurts the WoW economy just because they read somewhere that 'Xlorep said Blizzard said so.' Not that it affects me in any way, but I like to stop misinformation whenever I encounter it.

Okay I have to just say this . . . it's opinion . . . your's and Xlorep's opinions not factual information. Those opinions from you both are as informed as you can make them, and that's great. An informed opinion or arguement is better then an uninformed one. It's okay that there are two different views on these topics . . . if someone believes something they read online to be factual or the gospel then they are not being logical, as we know that logic dictates that you take into consideration the source. So if Joe Schmoe believes everything he reads that's his fault . . .

Now you've each said you've read this and that, census sites, blizz's employees, impact, no impact, gold sellers blah blah . . .

Now, until either of you can post a report done by Blizzard and its effect on the overall economy in WOW that THEY have created, and only they would be able to accurately track said information/data . . . just agree to disagree . . . it's not misinformation on either side, it's an alternate view or stance on the same topic.


:smiley:

Back on topic

I'll take "Those Damned Twinks" for 600 Alex . . .

[Primed]

I R STNORG TWNK!

Anyways, this discussion has gone on on countless threads across this forum. Half of you hate twinks, half of you love twinks, and half of you don't care either way about twinks. Yes. That is 3 halves. Which makes just about as much sense as these threads do.

[VizjereiSerbia]

Every twink argument boils down to the fact that twinks make PvP harder for other people. Well news flash for everyone - PvP is not supposed to be easy.

:ponder:Easy? Who ever mentioned that PvP should be easy? I don't want BGs to be easy because I enjoy the challenge. But when twinks come into the picture it stops being challenging and starts becoming pointless. I don't mind getting killed by another player(as I of course don't mind killing them as well :wink:) when they kill me for being a higher level, a class particularly lethal to my class, I ran into group, or he just plays better. The thrill of it that either one of us could have won. I do mind when I get mutilated in 1 hit by a twink who I can't ever dream of killing, unless I have 2-3 group members behind me. Don't you get it already? Twinks take away that excitement of battling by being too overpowered.

[rgirty]

Not that it affects me in any way

When a goldseller hacks your MT's account shards his gear and deletes his char this might affect you.

He downloaded a mod from a trusted site (it happens to a lot of sites) that contained a logger.

Those shards and items go to the gold sellers, that stay in business by people buying gold.

3 weeks go by before he can get a restore, then he has no gems/enchants etc.

The guild spends that time without their mt and an entire guild suffers.

Sure you could argue this anyway you want, but the issue itself is gold buying.

Placing a real $ value on any virtual or real item creates the issue of people stealing it or manufacturing it for sale.

The people buying gold are responsible for this activity.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Sorry, I don't like it when people spread misinformation. One of my pet peeves that really gets under my skin. I hate to think of all the people who come away from a thread like this one hating twinks for no other reason than 'they read somewhere how it hurts the game.' There are enough people in this world who already hate twinks for the wrong reasons, we don't need any more. Every twink argument boils down to the fact that twinks make PvP harder for other people. Well news flash for everyone - PvP is not supposed to be easy. I don't know where everyone got the idea that it is supposed to be easy. Maybe because leveling is easy, and questing is easy, and making gold is easy, they just assume everything in the game is supposed to be easy.

I also hate to think of all the people who came away from the other thread thinking gold selling hurts the WoW economy just because they read somewhere that 'Xlorep said Blizzard said so.' Not that it affects me in any way, but I like to stop misinformation whenever I encounter it.

ok, fine. If you insist on a semantics debate, let's whip out what Blizzard's people did say on the subject, and then maybe you will finally get off your high "holier than thou" horse on it.

It has come to our attention that certain individuals are selling Blizzard's in-game property for cash on auction sites such as eBay and on personal websites. The World of Warcraft Terms of Use clearly states that all of the content in World of Warcraft is the property of Blizzard, and Blizzard does not allow "in game" items to be sold for real money. Accordingly, Blizzard Entertainment will take any and all actions necessary to stop this behavior. Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun. In order to promote a fun and fair environment for all our customers, we are actively investigating those individuals who engage in this inappropriate activity and reserve the right to take legal action against these individuals to protect World of Warcraft for all those who "play by the rules." If you are found to be selling in-game property (such as coins, items, or characters), for real money, you will lose your characters and accounts, and Blizzard Entertainment reserves its right to pursue legal action against you as well.

We also want to remind potential buyers in the game to please refrain from buying in-game property with real money. We understand the temptation to purchase better items, but Blizzard, and not the seller, does own all in-game property. In addition, we feel that characters can find ample equipment and money within the game through their own adventuring and questing. Please understand that if you do purchase in-game property from sellers on eBay and personal sites, we may temporarily suspend your account, and at the very least, delete the offending items.

Thank you for understanding our position. Blizzard Entertainment is committed to maintaining the atmosphere of fair play and fun in World of Warcraft.

It has the potential to affect the in-game economy. From Blizzard's own statements. Your claims it has no effect on the economy fails, as even Blizzard's people confirm that the potential is there. Evidence of this potential can be seen in the census sites like I mentioned. Are you satisfied now, or are you still going to nitpick about something else on it, and continue to drag the topic around further rather than let it lie? I am not "promoting misinformation" or any such nonsense. My point has been that there is no way to prove gold-selling doesn't affect the economy, and that affecting the in-game economy was one of the factors to consider -- the one you've (seemingly) decided to make your personal mission to stomp out of existence with out proving anything.

I'd say "can we get back to the original topic", but honestly... the original topic has about as much merit anyway.

[dgrampa]

Okay I have to just say this . . . it's opinion . . . your's and Xlorep's opinions not factual information. Those opinions from you both are as informed as you can make them, and that's great. An informed opinion or arguement is better then an uninformed one. It's okay that there are two different views on these topics . . . if someone believes something they read online to be factual or the gospel then they are not being logical, as we know that logic dictates that you take into consideration the source. So if Joe Schmoe believes everything he reads that's his fault . . .

Yes, yes, I know we simply have diferent opinions. I know I can never change his opinion and I'm not trying to. I'm simply poking holes in statements trying to get to the truth and stop misinformation. A false statement is not the same as an uninformed argument. There are unfortunately many 'Joe Schmoes' out there that simply regurgitate whatever they read as gospel truth. I come to these boards to avoid that type of crap and I do my best to try to correct misinformation when I can.

Now you've each said you've read this and that, census sites, blizz's employees, impact, no impact, gold sellers blah blah . . .

I never say I read something without providing a source. I never used that type of argument in any of these threads. I've also always stated that my opinion is just that - an opinion.

Now, until either of you can post a report done by Blizzard and its effect on the overall economy in WOW that THEY have created, and only they would be able to accurately track said information/data . . . just agree to disagree . . . it's not misinformation on either side, it's an alternate view or stance on the same topic.

:smiley:

I have asked Xlorep to provide a source a few times now and he has provided none. He keeps redirecting it at me saying I am the one who needs to prove something. It is impossible for me to prove my opinion. I have no inside information. I simply point out things that everyone can observe that seem to support my opinion. All Xlorep has done is say my opinion is wrong because he read it somewhere. Sorry chief, but that isn't good enough for me.

Back on topic

I'll take "Those Damned Twinks" for 600 Alex . . .

I know you are tired of the hijack and so am I, but I do have the right to defend myself AFAIK. I don't know why he brought it up here anyway. :ponder:

So 'Those Damned Twinks' for 600 and the answer is, a daily double!

I'll bet 1000g Alex.

OK the answer is:

Twinks ruin the economy for low level players!

What is the next piece of twink misinformation to be debated in this thread?

CORRECT!!! Next topic please!

EDIT:
When a goldseller hacks your MT's account shards his gear and deletes his char this might affect you.

He downloaded a mod from a trusted site (it happens to a lot of sites) that contained a logger.

Those shards and items go to the gold sellers, that stay in business by people buying gold.

3 weeks go by before he can get a restore, then he has no gems/enchants etc.

The guild spends that time without their mt and an entire guild suffers.

Sure you could argue this anyway you want, but the issue itself is gold buying.

Placing a real $ value on any virtual or real item creates the issue of people stealing it or manufacturing it for sale.

The people buying gold are responsible for this activity.

Wow back to this? Please reread the original thread where I show how the fact that gold selling is against the ToS could be as much to blame for keyloggers as the gold sellers themselves. And I wasn't claiming that gold selling doesn't affect me, I was saying people believing misinformation doesn't really affect me. Other than generating more threads I feel the need to correct :tongue:

ok, fine. If you insist on a semantics debate, let's whip out what Blizzard's people did say on the subject, and then maybe you will finally get off your high "holier than thou" horse on it.



It has the potential to affect the in-game economy. From Blizzard's own statements. Your claims it has no effect on the economy fails, as even Blizzard's people confirm that the potential is there. Evidence of this potential can be seen in the census sites like I mentioned. Are you satisfied now, or are you still going to nitpick about something else on it, and continue to drag the topic around further rather than let it lie? I am not "promoting misinformation" or any such nonsense. My point has been that there is no way to prove gold-selling doesn't affect the economy, and that affecting the in-game economy was one of the factors to consider -- the one you've (seemingly) decided to make your personal mission to stomp out of existence with out proving anything.

I'd say "can we get back to the original topic", but honestly... the original topic has about as much merit anyway.

Perfect! You have shown how you misinterpret
'Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun.' to mean
'Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has damaged the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun.'
Thank you for doing exactly what I said you did back in post #81

This isn't an argument of semantics. This is you twisting words to support your false claims. You claimed that Blizzard stated that gold selling has damaged the WoW economy. Show me the proof.

[VizjereiSerbia]

I know it's off my original topic, but coming from a country that had one of biggest inflations in recorded history, I have to say I agree with Blizzard and Xlorep: any amount of gold artificially pumped into the WOW economy can have devastating effects on it. By giving the average player more money than he could ever actually earn through questing, grinding etc. you make items otherwise unavailable at their disposal. When the people who sell those items see that they will naturally increase the gold the item costs, thereby making it unavailable to normal players even more. This could lead to a chain reaction resulting in a total devastation of the WOW economy.
P.S. Remember I am using the word COULD, and not must or will

[dgrampa]

I know it's off my original topic, but coming from a country that had one of biggest inflations in recorded history, I have to say I agree with Blizzard and Xlorep: any amount of gold artificially pumped into the WOW economy can have devastating effects on it. By giving the average player more money than he could ever actually earn through questing, grinding etc. you make items otherwise unavailable at their disposal. When the people who sell those items see that they will naturally increase the gold the item costs, thereby making it unavailable to normal players even more. This could lead to a chain reaction resulting in a total devastation of the WOW economy.
P.S. Remember I am using the word COULD, and not must or will

Exactly and if you read the original thread you will see how I pointed out that the gold is not 'artificially pumped' into the economy. It is farmed the same way you and I do it, by killing mobs which drop items which increases supply which drives prices back down...for what feels like the 1 millionth time :cry:

EDIT: get back on your own topic! lololol

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Perfect! You have shown how you misinterpret
'Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has the potential to damage the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun.' to mean
'Not only do we believe that it is illegal, but it also has damaged the game economy and overall experience for the many thousands of others who play World of Warcraft for fun.'
Thank you for doing exactly what I said you did back in post #81

This isn't an argument of semantics. This is you twisting words to support your false claims. You claimed that Blizzard stated that gold selling has damaged the WoW economy. Show me the proof.

Actually, now you are straw-manning my position. Blizzard has said there is the potential to damage. Blizzard has not said there is no evidence of damage. My further suppositions have been that there is evidence, circumstantial, I'll grant you, of gold-selling (or its equivalents) having had impacts on in-game economies in MMOs -- impacts I personally have observed over the years I have been in online gaming, as a developer, and as a player.

There is no twisting of Blizzard statements here. There is simply that Blizzard has released statements with implications. But, as I have pointed out (and just replied in another gold-seller thread from a few months back), in the end, it is Blizzard's game, Blizzard's rules, and they have stated that gold-selling is against said rules. You are the one constantly trying to point out the semantics -- the argument on the definition and/or meaning of what is said to the exclusion of the original point, in an effort to discredit what I've said. And you still do, in your post that I have replied to, right here.

Exactly and if you read the original thread you will see how I pointed out that the gold is not 'artificially pumped' into the economy. It is farmed the same way you and I do it, by killing mobs which drop items which increases supply which drives prices back down...for what feels like the 1 millionth time :cry:

EDIT: get back on your own topic! lololol

And again, you may believe that the methods that gold-sellers use doesn't "Artificially pump up" the gold on a server, but that really is opinion. My opinion is that it does, because the methods that are used go beyond what a normal player can do, combined with the fact that the standard operating procedure of a server's economy is to inflate. My opinion is that the rate at which the gold is acquired by the gold-sellers is faster than what an average player can accomplish, due to multiple tactics, as have been outlined. There always is a rate of gold which is brought into a server that exceeds the rate items are brought in -- if that wasn't true, the amount of gold on the server would vanish -- the game's mechanics require there to be more gold than items, even if it was always equal, that would result in a stagnation, and nobody would be able to get anything more than what he or she does.

[dgrampa]

...

You still insist that the economy has nothing to do with it, despite even Blizzard themselves having stated that Gold-selling does impact server economies. You are the one needing a burden of proof to contradict what is established, and failed to do so...

Your original quote from this thread.

Saying something has happened or does happen is ENTIRELY different from saying it can happen. I am not trying to argue semantics. They are 2 completely different statements. The actual statement does not back up your claim that my opinion is false. The false statement does back up your claim.

Actually, now you are straw-manning my position. Blizzard has said there is the potential to damage. Blizzard has not said there is no evidence of damage.

There is a reason you should never use double negatives, you are confusing yourself. Unless you really believe that if Blizzard doesn't say something has happened, then it actually has. That is the same as saying:

Blizzard didn't say all the servers didn't catch on fire today so they must have all caught on fire.

My further suppositions have been that there is evidence, circumstantial, I'll grant you, of gold-selling (or its equivalents) having had impacts on in-game economies in MMOs -- impacts I personally have observed over the years I have been in online gaming, as a developer, and as a player.

Do you program for Blizzard? If you don't then your observations carry the exact same weight as mine. You however admit that yours are circumstantial, mainly because your observations can easily be explained by other factors. I don't use circumstantial evidence to back my claims.

There is no twisting of Blizzard statements here. There is simply that Blizzard has released statements with implications. But, as I have pointed out (and just replied in another gold-seller thread from a few months back), in the end, it is Blizzard's game, Blizzard's rules, and they have stated that gold-selling is against said rules. You are the one constantly trying to point out the semantics -- the argument on the definition and/or meaning of what is said to the exclusion of the original point, in an effort to discredit what I've said. And you still do, in your post that I have replied to, right here.



And again, you may believe that the methods that gold-sellers use doesn't "Artificially pump up" the gold on a server, but that really is opinion. My opinion is that it does, because the methods that are used go beyond what a normal player can do, combined with the fact that the standard operating procedure of a server's economy is to inflate. My opinion is that the rate at which the gold is acquired by the gold-sellers is faster than what an average player can accomplish, due to multiple tactics, as have been outlined. There always is a rate of gold which is brought into a server that exceeds the rate items are brought in -- if that wasn't true, the amount of gold on the server would vanish -- the game's mechanics require there to be more gold than items, even if it was always equal, that would result in a stagnation, and nobody would be able to get anything more than what he or she does.

As I said before when you posted this exact same stuff it does not matter how much gold is farmed. It is a closed system. You don't get that. If your assumption was true, then higher population servers would have screwed up economies. All those extra people farming would create all this extra gold by your theory. Well then why do the high pop servers have more stable economies than low pop ones? I'll tell you why, because there is a steadier supply of items created by that farming.

Please stop going back and forth and repeating the same things I have already pointed out flaws in weeks ago. And you actually accuse me of circular logic (on several occasions):laugh:

[VizjereiSerbia]

Ok we really need to get back on topic, which is that we hate twinks and they should be separated on BGs!!!

[dgrampa]

Ok we really need to get back on topic, which is that we hate twinks and they should be separated on BGs!!!

There is a gear matching system in place already. The reason it doesn't work is that there aren't enough non-twinks to fill a BG, so they throw you in with the rest of us. If you separated the two completely, the twinks would gleefully be running BGs all day without any lowbies, and the lowbies would all be waiting in queue for three hours until they logged off from boredom. Sad, but true. I wish there were enough non-twinks so I wouldn't see so many anti-twink threads every day.

[snowieken]

I R STNORG TWNK!

Anyways, this discussion has gone on on countless threads across this forum. Half of you hate twinks, half of you love twinks, and half of you don't care either way about twinks. Yes. That is 3 halves. Which makes just about as much sense as these threads do.Best post I've ever seen in a twink thread! Two thumbs up! :thumbsup:

[lazzal]

I do have to admit..i made a twink myself >.<...but yeah they are fun killer sumtimes..and take Bg's to serious..i just made mines to go gnome skinning....cuz gnomes r teh gayest race ever and should die...damn there small cute bodies with freakishly large heads <.<

but yeh...its fun to play as one...expecially when you can 1-2 shot ppl >.<...good feeling

[Duke Brand]

Ok we really need to get back on topic, which is that I hate twinks and they should be separated on BGs!!!

Fixed......not everyone here hates twinks

It's bad practice to put the general population in with a personal opinion. Especially if a majority of them do not agree with you. Like an above poster said there are 3 sides to this and it's pretty much has gotten way out of hand.

[rgirty]

I do have to admit..i made a twink myself >.<...but yeah they are fun killer sumtimes..and take Bg's to serious..i just made mines to go gnome skinning....cuz gnomes r teh gayest race ever and should die...damn there small cute bodies with freakishly large heads <.<

but yeh...its fun to play as one...expecially when you can 1-2 shot ppl >.<...good feeling

Maybe i'm narrow minded but this is exactly what I imagine going through the mind of every twink.

Feels good to dominate and can't do it at 70, so i'll make a twink.

I don't hate twinking, I don't approve of twinking.

I don't care about twinking because i don't and will never pvp below lvl 70.

That is just the mindset that comes to the forefront when I think about someone doing some twinking.

[Duke Brand]

Feels good to dominate and can't do it at 70, so i'll make a twink.


Talk about not having a clue with this statement. Most twinks are actually people with lvl 70 mains that are geared out and just feel like passing the time doing something different On my server we had a twink guild (19 or 29 bracket) that is all GM's & FM's from the old days. Not to mention when they were active on their twinks their mains guild was progressing through naxx quite rapidly.

Not to mention I have a 19 twink rogue of my own and pretty much kill just about anything i come across on my 70 shadow priest.

God broad generalizations on things sometimes just piss me off when people don't have a clue.

[lazzal]

Maybe i'm narrow minded but this is exactly what I imagine going through the mind of every twink.

Feels good to dominate and can't do it at 70, so i'll make a twink.

I don't hate twinking, I don't approve of twinking.

I don't care about twinking because i don't and will never pvp below lvl 70.

That is just the mindset that comes to the forefront when I think about someone doing some twinking.

to be honest i made my twink before i was 70...he had all his gear when my main was 45....but yeah i respect your opinoin and thoughts.....it was mainly so that i could have an alt to go to when im bored or waiting on something

[lazzal]

Talk about not having a clue with this statement. Most twinks are actually people with lvl 70 mains that are geared out and just feel like passing the time doing something different On my server we had a twink guild (19 or 29 bracket) that is all GM's & FM's from the old days. Not to mention when they were active on their twinks their mains guild was progressing through naxx quite rapidly.

Not to mention I have a 19 twink rogue of my own and pretty much kill just about anything i come across on my 70 shadow priest.

God broad generalizations on things sometimes just piss me off when people don't have a clue.

true....i guess...but not all people that have twinks have 70 mains...now that my main is 70 its ben easy to get the new items that u can get for twinking now that the burning crusade came out

[caldepen]

I have argued both sides of this coin forever. On one hand it is odd that the first BG that a new player would encounter is the hardest and most stacked against them in the whole game. On the other hand I built a twink because it was fun and I decided that Blizzard obviously supports it and since I like to play everything to the best of my ability, be it basketball, snowboarding or world of warcraft I needed to build a good BG character. And thus was born Smoothop and Rogueater!

[lazzal]

I have argued both sides of this coin forever. On one hand it is odd that the first BG that a new player would encounter is the hardest and most stacked against them in the whole game. On the other hand I built a twink because it was fun and I decided that Blizzard obviously supports it and since I like to play everything to the best of my ability, be it basketball, snowboarding or world of warcraft I needed to build a good BG character. And thus was born Smoothop and Rogueater!



rougeater lol nice >.<

[dgrampa]

I have argued both sides of this coin forever. On one hand it is odd that the first BG that a new player would encounter is the hardest and most stacked against them in the whole game. On the other hand I built a twink because it was fun and I decided that Blizzard obviously supports it and since I like to play everything to the best of my ability, be it basketball, snowboarding or world of warcraft I needed to build a good BG character. And thus was born Smoothop and Rogueater!


This is an example of a good attitude to take when faced with adversity.

A bad example would be to ask the developers of the most successful MMO to change their game design to better fit how you think the game should be. Especially since these same requests have been posted a billion times already over the past 2 years and Blizz has done nothing but give twinks more options.

[rgirty]

Meh, you responded in this manner:

Talk about not having a clue with this statement. Most twinks are actually people with lvl 70 mains that are geared out and just feel like passing the time doing something different

Due to my statement of:
View Post
Feels good to dominate and can't do it at 70, so i'll make a twink.

Which I made in response to this post:


expecially when you can 1-2 shot ppl >.<...good feeling

To me, that reads exactly what I stated. I did state that I was narrow minded on the subject perhaps I should have said ignorant.

Just my opinion and I know a lot of people with twinks, it isn't like i've never enchanted something for a twink or ran someone through somewhere to get an item for their twink...

Just seems to be the mindset, but as always I could be very wrong.

[caldepen]

The challenge for me is to win the BG and then second to that be at or near the top in damage done, then kills. I don't single out other twinks or weak players, I attack anyone that comes into range and stay on him until he/she is dead. The exception to that is if an observed twink attacks me while I am attacking someone else, then I decide if breaking off the attack on the other toon will save my life. If not I continue.

On the flag runs I try to be the guy who protects rather than the guy carrying because then I can really lay down the law. And my objective then is to get enemies to attack me rather than the flag carrier, by slowing them down or diverting their attention.

How is this relevant to a Twink rant thread you ask? Because in order to do all those things well I needed to outfit my character to the best of my capability (balancing time and whatnot). You want to split up the BG's? Where do you draw the line? Lets have a grey equipment only WSG! That way its fair for everyone... (I am being sarcastic here for those of you who only read little bits). Lets start a Amish WSG where you can play the BG with an abacus.

[Shadowpup]

Just so I get this straight in my head...
I have a 70, I have alts that I'm trying to lvl. I have the resources to farm items and gold to equip my alts with good gear so lvling is easier.

If I step into a BG with that gear I'm suddenly a twink/cheesehead/criminal?

Maybe you should think of BG rewards as a quest. Kind of like Winterspring mounts.

[moopy]

That way its fair for everyone... (I am being sarcastic here for those of you who only read little bits).

If you have to explain that you're being sarcastic, your delivery may be somewhat lacking.

[Kugan]

How is this relevant to a Twink rant thread you ask? Because in order to do all those things well I needed to outfit my character to the best of my capability (balancing time and whatnot). You want to split up the BG's? Where do you draw the line? Lets have a grey equipment only WSG! That way its fair for everyone... (I am being sarcastic here for those of you who only read little bits). Lets start a Amish WSG where you can play the BG with an abacus.

We already said how we would like to split it up. Let the players decide. How do you keep it fair? Let the non-twink bg give experience.

This might actually let me go on my twink again for a while. I dislike killing people that can't fight back. I never do it on my Rogue (I blind them and run away), and I can't do it on my Paladin :grin:. Why should I have to do it on my twink?

[VizjereiSerbia]

Maybe you should think of BG rewards as a quest. Kind of like Winterspring mounts.

Now my main is only level 35 but isn't Winterspring a lvl 60+ zone? And isn't it a long a very hard quest chain to get the mount? And BG rewards are available to anyone with time not skill as I emphasized before.
P.S. Please correct me about Winterspring mounts if I'm not right

[bwirum]

Winterspring is a 58-60 zone I believe. And the winterspring mount quest also just needs time. First the time to get to 58-60, then the time to grind exalted with Darnassus if you're not elven, then the time to gather the slowdropping turnins. Not rocketscience, just time.

[Dhoum]

Just so I get this straight in my head...
I have a 70, I have alts that I'm trying to lvl. I have the resources to farm items and gold to equip my alts with good gear so lvling is easier.

If I step into a BG with that gear I'm suddenly a twink/cheesehead/criminal?
There is a difference between getting good equipment for an alt to level in and fine-tuning an alt for a BG. To be honest I think the whole problem could be solved if the rules on Enchants and armour kits were tightened up to prevent their use on low-level items. Of course that would spoil a lot of people's fun (though, frankly, I could care less given the typical responses to this topic) so it would be nice to give traditional twinks a "super league" to play in rather than nerf them.

And I would far rather face a 3 hour wait for a BG that will be entertaining, to a half hour wait for one that will be an exercise in frustration. Just because I'm grinding for Marks doesn't mean I don't want to enjoy the game.

[Duke Brand]

This will be my last comment in this thread because first it is ridiculous in the first place, and second has gotten way out of hand.

I honestly think that all you complaining about twinks got your *** beat one to many times in bgs and are just QQer's like the rest of them. Learn2play your class in PvP and it even the odds alot more then gear will. You are never going to get your "dream" of twinks not being around anymore or enchants being change to higher levels. If blizzard thought it was broken they would have done this over a a while ago when all the damn QQer's started complaining. Grow a pair and stop bit**ing cuz it's the point of the game, to attain the best gear you can to accomplish a task. Jealous much cuz you are to lazy to go out and farm money to support a twink? Sure has hell what it sounds like to me.

[rgirty]

Duke, I think a lot of the animosity might come from people who want to casually do bg's while they are leveling up. They don't have a 70 to support their twink and honestly they don't really know how to play their char all that well.

Some of the enchants were changed fairly recently so that they can be applied on higher level items, blizz did take this step and I wouldn't be surprised if they took more steps in the future.

I could personally not care less about the subject, because I never pvp'd pre-60 (before tbc) and don't plan to pvp pre-70 on any char from this point forward.

However I don't see why we can't have a conversation about it without calling people whiners and qq'rs. I can see both sides of it.

[dgrampa]

This will be my last comment in this thread because first it is ridiculous in the first place, and second has gotten way out of hand.

I honestly think that all you complaining about twinks got your *** beat one to many times in bgs and are just QQer's like the rest of them. Learn2play your class in PvP and it even the odds alot more then gear will. You are never going to get your "dream" of twinks not being around anymore or enchants being change to higher levels. If blizzard thought it was broken they would have done this over a a while ago when all the damn QQer's started complaining. Grow a pair and stop bit**ing cuz it's the point of the game, to attain the best gear you can to accomplish a task. Jealous much cuz you are to lazy to go out and farm money to support a twink? Sure has hell what it sounds like to me.

Inflammatory posts like this one only strengthen anti-twink's positions that twinks are all a-holes. I know how you feel sometimes though because everytime I hear someone suggest that enchants be nerfed I feel like smashing my face into the screen. Maybe the glass shards sticking in my face will distract me from the aggravation of someone posting the same tired old idea that has been posted 50 times a day every day for the past 2 years, like it is some novel new idea.

And Dhoum, I think you missed my point. The BG wouldn't pop after 3 hours. The BG might never pop. And even if it did there wouldn't be a full group on both sides. And I suppose if it did pop and you had 10 on your team and only 5 were on the opposing team you would not try to win because it would be unfair to the newbs?

[Duke Brand]

Inflammatory posts like this one only strengthen anti-twink's positions that twinks are all a-holes.

So I lied I will make more more post....... I sure am an A-hole and I'm damn proud of it. If you don't like it then tough.........

[VizjereiSerbia]

This will be my last comment in this thread because first it is ridiculous in the first place, and second has gotten way out of hand.

I honestly think that all you complaining about twinks got your *** beat one to many times in bgs and are just QQer's like the rest of them. Learn2play your class in PvP and it even the odds alot more then gear will. You are never going to get your "dream" of twinks not being around anymore or enchants being change to higher levels. If blizzard thought it was broken they would have done this over a a while ago when all the damn QQer's started complaining. Grow a pair and stop bit**ing cuz it's the point of the game, to attain the best gear you can to accomplish a task. Jealous much cuz you are to lazy to go out and farm money to support a twink? Sure has hell what it sounds like to me.
I've already said that I have no intention of farming gold and items to support a twink, simply because I don't want one and think they are a lame way to play BGs. I also said that in the higher level brackets I don't get killed by twinks as much as in the 10-19 bracket. Learn to play your class? How am I supposed to do that when nothing I do with any class can kill a twink 1 on 1? And finally there is no need for open insult. I am anti-twink but you won't see any insults like yours in any of my posts. Seems that you need them to add weight to your statement because you obviously lack good arguments.

[Kugan]

I've already said that I have no intention of farming gold and items to support a twink, simply because I don't want one and think they are a lame way to play BGs. I also said that in the higher level brackets I don't get killed by twinks as much as in the 10-19 bracket. Learn to play your class? How am I supposed to do that when nothing I do with any class can kill a twink 1 on 1? And finally there is no need for open insult. I am anti-twink but you won't see any insults like yours in any of my posts. Seems that you need them to add weight to your statement because you obviously lack good arguments.

Just ignore Duke.

I came here after my first battleground experience and QQ’ed on the forums (as he would put it).

Now I’m level 70, 64, 60 and doing fine in PvP. I even have a twink of my own (Oh… but I don’t have much respects for the PvP abilities of twinks who are against the idea of having separate BGs. To me that means they can’t fight anyone in a fair fight.). And I’m still posting here, and enjoying it. So good things do come from QQ’ing on the forum :P.

The only problem is this topic has been discussed A LOT, with no real conclusions drawn. My suggestion to you would be to let this post die (nobody is convincing anyone), and find some other interesting stuff to post about.

Yep, bored at work (again :P)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

This will be my last comment in this thread because first it is ridiculous in the first place, and second has gotten way out of hand.

I honestly think that all you complaining about twinks got your *** beat one to many times in bgs and are just QQer's like the rest of them. Learn2play your class in PvP and it even the odds alot more then gear will. You are never going to get your "dream" of twinks not being around anymore or enchants being change to higher levels. If blizzard thought it was broken they would have done this over a a while ago when all the damn QQer's started complaining. Grow a pair and stop bit**ing cuz it's the point of the game, to attain the best gear you can to accomplish a task. Jealous much cuz you are to lazy to go out and farm money to support a twink? Sure has hell what it sounds like to me.

Umm..... that's not really an attitude appreciated on these forums. It is far more appreciated on the official forums, maybe those would be a better fit for you than here.

[Shellar]

Don't blame the player, blame the system.

[caldepen]

I've already said that I have no intention of farming gold and items to support a twink

Man, this an old argument... I did not have to farm anything to build my twink and it is a pretty reasonable one. I payed for it through my main's bankroll and had assistance with enchanting through my guild. It is quite reasonable and put him together in a couple of weeks while still playing my main. Didn't really notice the loss of gold.

I don't want one and think they are a lame way to play BGs.

And also if you don't like something that is fine but why do people feel the need to whine? I don't like the sport of cricket but I don't go on cricket forums and blast away...

[dgrampa]

I've already said that I have no intention of farming gold and items to support a twink, simply because I don't want one and think they are a lame way to play BGs. I also said that in the higher level brackets I don't get killed by twinks as much as in the 10-19 bracket. Learn to play your class? How am I supposed to do that when nothing I do with any class can kill a twink 1 on 1? And finally there is no need for open insult. I am anti-twink but you won't see any insults like yours in any of my posts. Seems that you need them to add weight to your statement because you obviously lack good arguments.

Not to mention I don't call you lame or lazy for playing the way you want to, so don't call my way of playing lame either.

It takes a surprisingly small amount of effort to be competetive in the 19 bracket, if you don't want to do it that is fine. But don't expect others not to.

[xDarkDrifterx]

The process of twinking is enjoyable to me. The research, the work, the leveling up of professions etc was all a fun ride on the way to making him. Yes I had a 70 to support him and farm for primals and other mats, I grinded in Gnomer for a week or so (8 total solo clears - it took some time as that place is large) looking for the petrospill leggings to drop. They never did drop, and I purchased trollsbane leggings instead, but it was fun trying (leveld up enchanting on another toon with all the lowbie greens I got that week). The process of building him was almost more fun then playing him. I'm looking forward to twinking something else once 2.3 comes out and the item changes take place. It's a nice change of pace - I saw it as sort of a (RP perspective here) the young squire has begun his journey to become a night at a very young age . . .

[snowieken]

Duke Brand, as Xlorep said, the official forums might be a place where you are allowed to post flaming rants like that, these are not. I dislike being a casual player and not being able to take part in low level BG's because of twinks. I respect the desire to make twinks, though, but maybe you should try and respect my point of view as well, without calling me a crybaby. That's also the reason why these discussions never end up with any final conclusion: both points of view have their value.

But anyway, posts like yours are an example of why I hate twink threads so much. They eventually end up like this with almost no exception. Pages and pages of posts, flames starting to rise up and no results apart from people getting increasingly annoyed at each other.

For this reason, I am this close of finishing this thread. You guys had your chance of posting your views on the subject and it's clear no one is going to convince the other side. And now that we have reached the stage of cussing and flaming, it might be best if the hammer is going to fall.

Since there are still some civilized opinions being posted, it might be worth trying to keep this thread alive though. But please keep in mind that both points of view hold lots of merit and that you will never come to an agreement. So all I can say is: play nice.

[degnar]

some will agree
some will say a twink is part of the game
some will say they cant compete with no life twink
some will say they can make a twink in no time
some will prolly include something about economy and gold seller, power leveling
some will prolly think that funny someone care enough about doing pvp but not enough to gear himself to be competitive

can we say "beating pulp" ?
cuz I dont think a dead horse corpse can take so much beating
source (http://wow.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386945)

This really is a topic that has no satisfying solution. I'd suggest everyone try to consider all viewpoints, keep the complaints down, and propose solutions. The fact that it keeps coming up shows that something should be done. Blizzard has tried... hopefully they'll keep at it and eventually make it better.


...friend. Some people started posting, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting forever just because -This is the thread that will not end, yes it goes on and on my.....

[Dhoum]

And Dhoum, I think you missed my point. The BG wouldn't pop after 3 hours. The BG might never pop. And even if it did there wouldn't be a full group on both sides. And I suppose if it did pop and you had 10 on your team and only 5 were on the opposing team you would not try to win because it would be unfair to the newbs?
Merge battlegroups to speed up waiting times should answer your first point. As to the unbalanced sides issue, I've been on both sides of that and yes, the result is a foregone conclusion but my word there've been some great fights!

See I enjoy pvp between characters of like skill and equipment, it's a challenge and I enjoy seeing my techniques improve as I practice. Why does that make me a bad person?

[dgrampa]

Again I think you are missing another point. Many anti twinks think that twinking is unfair to newbs/casuals so not only do they not do it, they think it is immoral. Yet those same anti-twinks, if they found themselves on a team that outnumbers the opposing team by a margin of 2 to 1, would have no problem steamrolling the smaller team without regard to the fact that they are ruining the other side's fun.

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

EDIT: Next will be that they don't mind losing in a fair fight but don't like losing to someone because of gear. Once again disregarding the fact that this is a game based around gear and so the cycle will continue until this thread is finally closed.
EDIT 2: I don't think anyone called you a bad person.

[bwirum]

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

Totally untrue. The best battlegrounds are the ones that are won or lost at the pinch of a hair. (I don't even know if that's an expression, but it sounded good.)

It's boring to steamroll others and it's boring to get steamrolled. Twink or not, equal sides are undoubtedly most fun.

Edit: Yes, I saw your edited comment too.

Djiss' quoted by Degnar a couple of posts back says it all. We should all let it rest in peace.

[dgrampa]

Totally untrue. The best battlegrounds are the ones that are won or lost at the pinch of a hair. (I don't even know if that's an expression, but it sounded good.)

It's boring to steamroll others and it's boring to get steamrolled. Twink or not, equal sides are undoubtedly most fun.

Edit: Yes, I saw your edited comment too.

Djiss' quoted by Degnar a couple of posts back says it all. We should all let it rest in peace.

Totally untrue? Or untrue in the few fights that are close? I agree that a good close battle is one of the best experiences to be had in a battleground, but losing, for the most part, is not fun. Even in a close fight, if my team loses, I am not quite as happy as I would have been had we won. Although I am happy just to have a good battle, as they seem to be few and far between. I think just because you can find a few exceptions that contradict my statement, it does not render it 'totally untrue.' You yourself said it is boring to get steamrolled, and if it is boring, it is not fun.

EDIT: As long as we have people calling a playstyle I choose to partake in 'lame' or 'unfair' you can be sure I won't let it rest. I don't criticize other people's playstyles and I'd expect the same respect from others.

[bwirum]

Totally untrue? Or untrue in the few fights that are close? I agree that a good close battle is one of the best experiences to be had in a battleground, but losing, for the most part, is not fun. Even in a close fight, if my team loses, I am not quite as happy as I would have been had we won. Although I am happy just to have a good battle, as they seem to be few and far between. I think just because you can find a few exceptions that contradict my statement, it does not render it 'totally untrue.' You yourself said it is boring to get steamrolled, and if it is boring, it is not fun.

I also said it's boring to steamroll. But hey, who's counting?

[dgrampa]

I know you said that but what does that have to do with me?

Besides, even though it is boring, if you find yourself steamrolling the other team, you are ruining their fun. Which makes you just as guilty as any twink unless you let them win.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I know you said that but what does that have to do with me?

It was the completion of his argument, which you neglected to mention in your response, skewing it more in your favor is all.

Besides, even though it is boring, if you find yourself steamrolling the other team, you are ruining their fun. Which makes you just as guilty as any twink unless you let them win.

That's a slippery slope you are making there. While I don't write off twinking with terms like "unfair" or "wrong", I can definitely see both sides of the argument on this. That said, you are really using the phrase "ruining their fun" in a spacious manner. As he already said, he doesn't find steamrolling any more fun than being steamrolled -- I tend to agree on that point. So, "taking part in the steamrolling" would make him just as guilty of ruining his own fun as ruining the fun of someone else. I personally tend to bow out of BG's which are heavily one-sided, it doesn't matter if it is for, or against me as such.

Now, I still think the whole pro-twink/anti-twink argument is an exercise in futility in general, but it would be nice to see arguments that aren't quite so... fallacious.

[Etrin]

I agree this is a NO WIN thing and it should be closed.

Hell it was no more thought out by buzzard than the racials were.

OK NO post on racials either LOL

[xDarkDrifterx]

Everyone roll lvl 19 Holy/Disc Priest Twinks . . . can u say long battles . . . lol

[dgrampa]

... I personally tend to bow out of BG's which are heavily one-sided, it doesn't matter if it is for, or against me as such...

Yes I'm sure you do. We all get it Xlorep, you can never do wrong. In any situation, you take the extreme high road no matter how rediculous it sounds.

I mean you just said earlier that you hate PvP but you want the PvP reward so you are suffering through it. Now you are saying on top of that, if your team is steamrolling the other team you bow out instead of taking the fast honor?

And I didn't skew anything in my favor. His statement that steamrolling is boring has nothing to do with calling my statement 'totally untrue'

My statement:
The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

His statement:
It's boring to steamroll others.

The 2 statements have nothing to do with eachother. Who cares if steamrolling is boring? Steamrolling still ruins the other team's fun.

How am I using 'ruining their fun' in a spacious manner? If you are ruining someone's fun then you are ruining someones fun. You really are reaching for anything to disagree with at this point.

[Shadowpup]

Now my main is only level 35 but isn't Winterspring a lvl 60+ zone? And isn't it a long a very hard quest chain to get the mount? And BG rewards are available to anyone with time not skill as I emphasized before.
P.S. Please correct me about Winterspring mounts if I'm not right

You missed the analogy by a zone.

When you go to BGs in order to get Honor and Marks for gear, think of it as being a quest. The hardest most punishing, boring, drawn out quest in the game is trying to get a Winterspring mount.

If you think of BGs in this way - a long, hard, drawn out, punishing quest to get good gear, then your perception might change.

"Shadowpup, please go to Arathi Basin and hand your butt to the Horde 256 times and for your perseverance, you will be rewarded with these shinies!"
"Yes, I will, thank you very much!"

Yes, I try to win. But win or lose, I get a bit of Honor and a Mark or three. Every game puts me that much closer to getting what I want. Do I have to do it over and over and over? Yeah, but you have to do the same with lots of other things in the game (can you say Rep Grind in OL?)

[Shadowpup]

It's boring to steamroll others.

Whether it's boring or not doesn't matter. Winning side, losing side, doesn't matter. I'd rather be in three fast wipeouts than 1 long drawn out, omg, win already, it's been 45mins in WSG!

[dgrampa]

Whether it's boring or not doesn't matter. Winning side, losing side, doesn't matter. I'd rather be in three fast wipeouts than 1 long drawn out, omg, win already, it's been 45mins in WSG!

If you are in it for the rewards, yes. If you are in it for the PvP, no. Twinks that are finished and don't need rewards don't care about fast matches. I throw out 100 stacks of WSG marks every WSG weekend so they don't clog up my mailbox.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Yes I'm sure you do. We all get it Xlorep, you can never do wrong. In any situation, you take the extreme high road no matter how rediculous it sounds.

I mean you just said earlier that you hate PvP but you want the PvP reward so you are suffering through it. Now you are saying on top of that, if your team is steamrolling the other team you bow out instead of taking the fast honor?

Step 1: please refrain from the unnecessary ad hominem attacks. I didn't say your position was wrong, just that the point which you were arguing wasn't exactly supporting your case, and in fact was putting you more on a weaker platform than necessary.

Secondly, is it so hard to imagine that there are people who prefer it when things are fair? I mean, bwirum even said he found it boring to steamroll others. I find it particularly irritating myself, especially as I simply dislike PvP on a grand scale. Curiously, not because of the PvP itself, but more because of the attitudes that are pervasive among the people who do PvP. Attitudes of "might makes right", and proposing that it is OK to "steamroll" an opponent, but it is only annoying to be "steamrolled".

And I didn't skew anything in my favor. His statement that steamrolling is boring has nothing to do with calling my statement 'totally untrue'

Sigh. Again with the selective reading.

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

Totally untrue. The best battlegrounds are the ones that are won or lost at the pinch of a hair. (I don't even know if that's an expression, but it sounded good.)

It's boring to steamroll others and it's boring to get steamrolled. Twink or not, equal sides are undoubtedly most fun.

Totally untrue? Or untrue in the few fights that are close? I agree that a good close battle is one of the best experiences to be had in a battleground, but losing, for the most part, is not fun. Even in a close fight, if my team loses, I am not quite as happy as I would have been had we won. Although I am happy just to have a good battle, as they seem to be few and far between. I think just because you can find a few exceptions that contradict my statement, it does not render it 'totally untrue.' You yourself said it is boring to get steamrolled, and if it is boring, it is not fun.

I also said it's boring to steamroll. But hey, who's counting?

Now do you see the connection? I started with the statement you said was your statement, and then ended with the statement that you said was a response to it. However, I included everything else from the discussion between the two of you, in between, as it bears relevance. I also marked in bold the sentences that are relevant to the response he gave, and then I underlined the ones you said were in response to each other.

The 2 statements have nothing to do with eachother. Who cares if steamrolling is boring? Steamrolling still ruins the other team's fun.

Of course, if you disregard everything else that was said between the two statements, then it makes no sense, can you are capable of casually disregarding what bwirum had written. However, if you fill in the details, you'd see that there was relevance, and a point to his statement.

How am I using 'ruining their fun' in a spacious manner? If you are ruining someone's fun then you are ruining someones fun. You really are reaching for anything to disagree with at this point.

Actually no, I'm not. But since you don't seem to want to see what I mean, let me explain.

Besides, even though it is boring, if you find yourself steamrolling the other team, you are ruining their fun. Which makes you just as guilty as any twink unless you let them win.

Your logic is flawed here. your path of reasoning appears to be (and correct me if I'm wrong):

Winning is fun.
Losing is not fun.
When you win, you are making people not have any fun.
When you win by a lot, you are really making the other side not have any fun.
Therefore, winning by a large margin (or "steamrolling") is the same as having a twink in a BG.


First off, the last part is non sequitur. It simply does not follow.

Second, you are using the margins by which people win or lose as your definition of "ruining" someone's fun. If losing ruined people's fun, and 50% of those who go into a battleground lose, you'd stop having people play in battlegrounds, because it is not fun. Losing is part of the battleground experience, you learn from mistakes, and strive to achieve better in it. The very initial argument of winning = fun and losing = not fun = opposite of fun is not entirely true. Winning is more fun than losing is, sure, but they are not somehow canceling each other out in the process, at least for most people who play battlegrounds (or else, once again, more people would stop playing PvP, despite its popularity).

Now, like I said, I don't believe your position is wrong. The logic you are using in that statement, however, is flawed, and does not support your position, but weakens it due to the flawed reasoning.

[dgrampa]

Step 1: please refrain from the unnecessary ad hominem attacks. I didn't say your position was wrong, just that the point which you were arguing wasn't exactly supporting your case, and in fact was putting you more on a weaker platform than necessary.

Secondly, is it so hard to imagine that there are people who prefer it when things are fair? I mean, bwirum even said he found it boring to steamroll others. I find it particularly irritating myself, especially as I simply dislike PvP on a grand scale. Curiously, not because of the PvP itself, but more because of the attitudes that are pervasive among the people who do PvP. Attitudes of "might makes right", and proposing that it is OK to "steamroll" an opponent, but it is only annoying to be "steamrolled".



Sigh. Again with the selective reading.









Now do you see the connection? I started with the statement you said was your statement, and then ended with the statement that you said was a response to it. However, I included everything else from the discussion between the two of you, in between, as it bears relevance. I also marked in bold the sentences that are relevant to the response he gave, and then I underlined the ones you said were in response to each other.



Of course, if you disregard everything else that was said between the two statements, then it makes no sense, can you are capable of casually disregarding what bwirum had written. However, if you fill in the details, you'd see that there was relevance, and a point to his statement.



Actually no, I'm not. But since you don't seem to want to see what I mean, let me explain.



Your logic is flawed here. your path of reasoning appears to be (and correct me if I'm wrong):

Winning is fun.
Losing is not fun.
When you win, you are making people not have any fun.
When you win by a lot, you are really making the other side not have any fun.
Therefore, winning by a large margin (or "steamrolling") is the same as having a twink in a BG.


First off, the last part is non sequitur. It simply does not follow.

Second, you are using the margins by which people win or lose as your definition of "ruining" someone's fun. If losing ruined people's fun, and 50% of those who go into a battleground lose, you'd stop having people play in battlegrounds, because it is not fun. Losing is part of the battleground experience, you learn from mistakes, and strive to achieve better in it. The very initial argument of winning = fun and losing = not fun = opposite of fun is not entirely true. Winning is more fun than losing is, sure, but they are not somehow canceling each other out in the process, at least for most people who play battlegrounds (or else, once again, more people would stop playing PvP, despite its popularity).

Now, like I said, I don't believe your position is wrong. The logic you are using in that statement, however, is flawed, and does not support your position, but weakens it due to the flawed reasoning.

I hate when you break things up because it makes me have to break things up to reply to all your dribble. So I'm not going to break it up anymore, I'm just going to reply to your points.

First of all, in regards to the discussion between bwirium and I, I acknowledged EVERYTHING in his post except for the one line that didn't apply. I ignored that one line only because it did not apply, not because it contradicted my statement. It didn't contradict my statement.

He then posted saying that he also said the one line I ignored.
I then responded with my reason for ignoring the one line, that it didn't apply to my statement.

Do you think it applies to my statement? Let's go over it one more time to really drive the point home, and since you are having a hard time following the discussion. I'll paraphrase for the sake of not reposting the same things for the tenth time.

The point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team you are ruining their fun.
Totally untrue, close fights are better than steamrolls.
Just because close fights are more fun than steamrolls, that doesn't mean you aren't ruining their fun when you beat them.
But I said steamrolling isn't fun.
Super, thanks for repeating, but that still doesn't mean when you win you aren't ruining the losing team's fun.

I addressed every single thing he said. Can YOU make the connection now?

YOU then replied with this lovely statement:
It was the completion of his argument, which you neglected to mention in your response, skewing it more in your favor is all.

Acusing ME of skewing something in my favor, which I did not do. So I will expect an apology from you for that in your next post, since you ALWAYS do the right thing.

Next you go on to explain how I'm using 'ruining their fun' in a spacious manner by trying to find fault with my logic. Not only does this not explain how I'm using it in a spacious manner, you did NOT get the logic right. I will fix it here by filling in the parts you messed up:

1) Winning is fun.
2) Losing is not as much fun.
3) When you win, you are making people not have as much fun.
4) When you twink, you are making people not have as much fun.
5) Both twinking and winning make other people not have as much fun.

I never used margins of fun. You completely pulled that out of your a**.

No non sequitur here. Is it easy enough for you to follow now? Do you see anything wrong with my logic process in the 5 steps above? I'd love for you to point out my flawed logic, and maybe get back to showing how I use 'ruining their fun' too spaciously as well, since you seem to have skipped that part on your way to pointing out flawed logic.

[VizjereiSerbia]

This thread is getting way out of hand. I now see that the 2 sides will not and cannot agree. Everybody just started bickering over every petty details. So just let this thread die because the original idea(anti and pro twink arguments) was lost about 3 pages ago. I won't delete this thread nor would like to see it deleted by the moderator because of insults. If any of you still want to continue posting, feel free to do so, but be aware that you will NEVER convince the other side in anything, and will do nothing else except piss them off further.

P.S. For those of you that play alliance toons in my server, I'll see you on the battleground :smiley:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I hate when you break things up because it makes me have to break things up to reply to all your dribble. So I'm not going to break it up anymore, I'm just going to reply to your points.

Sorry, I believe in responding to points as they are made, to keep the flow, the "threads" of those points together. This isn't a spoken debate, it is a written debate or discussion. As such, it is possible to reply to individual points one at a time, rather than needing to reply to everything together all at once.

First of all, in regards to the discussion between bwirium and I, I acknowledged EVERYTHING in his post except for the one line that didn't apply. I ignored that one line only because it did not apply, not because it contradicted my statement. It didn't contradict my statement.

Actually, you used the logic that boring = not fun:

You yourself said it is boring to get steamrolled, and if it is boring, it is not fun.

Then, when he said that winning a steamroll is also boring, following your own logic, that means winning the steamroll is also not fun. Therefore, your comment of:

I know you said that but what does that have to do with me?

Is simple. winning or losing a steamroll = not fun (from what bwirum said, following your logic to its conclusion). In my mind, this makes the whole "steamroll" concept be fundamentally self-defeating, and pointless (which is why, as I mentioned before, I said I bow out of a steamroll, win or lose).

Do you think it applies to my statement? Let's go over it one more time to really drive the point home, and since you are having a hard time following the discussion. I'll paraphrase for the sake of not reposting the same things for the tenth time.

The point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team you are ruining their fun.
Totally untrue, close fights are better than steamrolls.
Just because close fights are more fun than steamrolls, that doesn't mean you aren't ruining their fun when you beat them.
But I said steamrolling isn't fun.
Super, thanks for repeating, but that still doesn't mean when you win you aren't ruining the losing team's fun.

Simple, his statement was pointing out that steamrolling was self-defeating. However, it is unrelated to twinking in the end.

YOU then replied with this lovely statement:
It was the completion of his argument, which you neglected to mention in your response, skewing it more in your favor is all.

Acusing ME of skewing something in my favor, which I did not do. So I will expect an apology from you for that in your next post, since you ALWAYS do the right thing.

I see no need for an apology. I stand by what I said, in the context which it was written.

Next you go on to explain how I'm using 'ruining their fun' in a spacious manner by trying to find fault with my logic. Not only does this not explain how I'm using it in a spacious manner, you did NOT get the logic right. I will fix it here by filling in the parts you messed up:

1) Winning is fun.
2) Losing is not as much fun.
3) When you win, you are making people not have as much fun.
4) When you twink, you are making people not have as much fun.
5) Both twinking and winning make other people not have as much fun.

I never used margins of fun. You completely pulled that out of your a**.

Besides, even though it is boring, if you find yourself steamrolling the other team, you are ruining their fun. Which makes you just as guilty as any twink unless you let them win.

That was the non sequitur part of your statement.

But, like I said, I do see your position in the twink/no-twink debate as valid. I see both sides equally valid, both have good points. I am not arguing for or against twinking in a BG environment, because I see both sides. My point was more that in the process of arguing your side of the debate, there was flaws in the reasoning, which I pointed out. And it seems you are disregarding those flaws, overlooking them, so be it.

[Shadowpup]

If you are in it for the rewards, yes. If you are in it for the PvP, no. Twinks that are finished and don't need rewards don't care about fast matches. I throw out 100 stacks of WSG marks every WSG weekend so they don't clog up my mailbox.

Isn't that what the anti-twinks are after? I thought one of the major arguments was that getting the rewards was too hard because of the twinks.

My position is that it shouldn't matter to the anti-twink in the BG. Stick it out, be persistant, the rewards will come in time.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Isn't that what the anti-twinks are after? I thought one of the major arguments was that getting the rewards was too hard because of the twinks.

My position is that it shouldn't matter to the anti-twink in the BG. Stick it out, be persistant, the rewards will come in time.

That is a good point, win or lose, you still get the honor and the marks.

[Shellar]

Consider yourself lucky. At least in the lower level brackets, you have multiple options to become competitive - gather honor, do instances, or buy stuff from AH. Once you get to 70, the only way to avoid being steamrollered is to spend several hours each day for a few months mindlessly grinding BGs (unless you happen to be one of the lucky few who jumped on the gravy train at the start of Season 1, when a person in PMC/WM could win 80% of her games). Money can buy you Crusader-enchanted Cruel Barbs, but it can't buy you 400+ resilience.

[Shadowpup]

Whoa whoa whoa...

BGs and arena are a whole different thing from each other.

They're about as different as Teldrassil and Shadowmoon Valley

[thedirty]

I read thru the first 12 pages of this thread, and saw a lot of misconceptions and generalizations on twinks. That said, I'd like to mention a few things about myself so as to avoid some of those misconceptions...

*I have 4 level 19 twinks, 1 level 39 twink (well, not anymore, he is leveling to 70 now as well), and 1 49 twink.
*Two of my 19 twinks are not on my mains server, but I still managed to work the AH and mine enough to buy the needed stuff.
*My main dinged 70 three weeks ago, yet I had all my twinks geared before he dinged 70.
*My main was a former 39, 49, and 60 twink.
*I am officer of a twink guild, and we get our enjoyment not from "one shotting lowbies", but from fighting other twinks in premade vs. premade fights and low level arenas.
*A large majority of our members have level 70 mains who enjoy raiding and other end game activities.

I twink because I enjoy the challenge of facing off against another group of guys who are close to equally geared. Once you get the best gear and enchants and face off against other guilds with equally geared and enchanted players, there is no gear excuse, then it depends only on class balance and good teamwork. I like being able to go out there with a very limited skillset, and make the most out of the limits that the bracket gives me.

I like doing hours of research to get the best stuff for a class at the peak of a certain bracket, going out and finding that stuff, and then putting it to use. I do not get enjoyment out of killing some scrub level 10 with 200 life, in fact, I'd say that I get much much more enjoyment out of taking down that twink druid flagcarrier with 2800 life and an agm trinket that is kiting our team around with that twink shaman of theirs.

I like being the guy who organizes events for my twink guild (like premade vs. premade fights) and being the guy who comes up with group strategies that help make our team a stronger force than any gear could give us.

In one game not too long ago, our twink guild ran a warsong gulch with our guys naked, not having any gear on any of our players against a PUG alliance team. We destroyed them in 12 minutes, why? Not because of gear imbalances, but because as a team, we worked well together, and made the most out of our abilities to get across the field untouched, while focusing our guys on their flag carrier and ccing their healers.

That is what twinking is about to me, and people who have never twinked would have no idea about the competetiveness of us twinks. Sure, there are those who sit in the middle of a warsong and farm kills all day long, but for every one of them, there is also that guy who just loves to pvp, and loves to compete.

[dagee]

I think people are getting confused here. The biggest complaint against twinks is that many of them purposely harass non-twinks. This is not a twink issue. This is a player issue. These are the same people who get on their level 70's and gank level 20's in Tarren Mills. Games that offer a pvp aspect often have lots of jerks. Again, its not the gear that makes the jerk its the player behind the twink.

[bwirum]

And I didn't skew anything in my favor. His statement that steamrolling is boring has nothing to do with calling my statement 'totally untrue'

It most certainly did. My whole point was resting on this being equally ridiculous whatever side you were on, winning or losing. If you couldn't see that I don't see the point in making this argument with you. If you could see that and still neglected to bring it into the discussion, then I still see no point in making this argument with you. So that was it for me here.

[dgrampa]

It most certainly did. My whole point was resting on this being equally ridiculous whatever side you were on, winning or losing. If you couldn't see that I don't see the point in making this argument with you. If you could see that and still neglected to bring it into the discussion, then I still see no point in making this argument with you. So that was it for me here.



We've all seen them, running around in BG with their glowing weapons. Most people playing battleground have been killed by some of them(usually in 1-2 hits). What am I talking about you ask? It's the TWINK of course. Usually a rogue, warrior and even hunter to some extent. You can recognize them by the above mentioned enchanted weapons(not the just weapons, but that's what you can see), or the fact that the twink rogue has more health than the non-twink warrior. You might ask why am I being so harsh, after all there are twinks on both horde and alliance? Well the answer is I just hate them because they ruin every battleground, either by killing you(argh gnome twinks grr) or by insulting everyone who isn't playing exactly how they want. So for all you people who have something to say about twinks, here is your chance.

P.S. I simply cant wait to hear what the twinks themselves have to say!!!
All I can say to all of them is: "Do your worst!!!":evil:

The OP started by saying twinks ruin battlegrounds
A) by killing people
B) by insulting people

Throughout the post and many other posts like it, I noticed that many anti-twinks think that twinking is lame and/or immoral. They think that all twinks just want to grief newbs, just like the OP originally states.

Rather than posting my opinion that not all twinks are out to grief newbs, which is just common sense anyway, I decided to point out that most of the anti-twink argument is hypocritical. I started making this point with the following post:

Again I think you are missing another point. Many anti twinks think that twinking is unfair to newbs/casuals so not only do they not do it, they think it is immoral. Yet those same anti-twinks, if they found themselves on a team that outnumbers the opposing team by a margin of 2 to 1, would have no problem steamrolling the smaller team without regard to the fact that they are ruining the other side's fun.

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

EDIT: Next will be that they don't mind losing in a fair fight but don't like losing to someone because of gear. Once again disregarding the fact that this is a game based around gear and so the cycle will continue until this thread is finally closed.
EDIT 2: I don't think anyone called you a bad person.

Basically I said that if you participate in a BG that is unbalanced in your favor in any way, including, but not limited to, a BG where your team outnumbers the opposing team by a margin of 2 to 1, you are ruining the other team's fun. You followed up by quoting one line from my post:

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

And countering it with this post:

Totally untrue. The best battlegrounds are the ones that are won or lost at the pinch of a hair. (I don't even know if that's an expression, but it sounded good.)

It's boring to steamroll others and it's boring to get steamrolled. Twink or not, equal sides are undoubtedly most fun.

Edit: Yes, I saw your edited comment too.

Djiss' quoted by Degnar a couple of posts back says it all. We should all let it rest in peace.

You called my statement 'totally untrue.' Somehow you take the idea that 'close battles are better than steamrolls' and think that it means that 'beating the other team does not ruin their fun.' There is no connection between the two. Ruining someone's fun is ruining someone's fun, it doesn't matter how much fun you have doing it.

The only thing your argument would be good for, would be to debate the degree to which fun is being ruined. This is the slippery slope that Xlorep tried to say I was on, and it is a slippery slope. But I never mentioned degrees or quantities, because I know that I have no right to decide how much fun should be allowed to be ruined. The only one that has that right is Blizzard.

So I countered your counter point by saying it doesn't make my statement untrue. In fact, I concede that in a few select situations, my statement might not apply. Those situations are few and far between however, so they don't render my statement 'totally untrue,' but rather 'untrue once in awhile.' See the difference? Here is my post:

Totally untrue? Or untrue in the few fights that are close? I agree that a good close battle is one of the best experiences to be had in a battleground, but losing, for the most part, is not fun. Even in a close fight, if my team loses, I am not quite as happy as I would have been had we won. Although I am happy just to have a good battle, as they seem to be few and far between. I think just because you can find a few exceptions that contradict my statement, it does not render it 'totally untrue.' You yourself said it is boring to get steamrolled, and if it is boring, it is not fun.

EDIT: As long as we have people calling a playstyle I choose to partake in 'lame' or 'unfair' you can be sure I won't let it rest. I don't criticize other people's playstyles and I'd expect the same respect from others.

Instead of acknowledging that your statements do not make mine 'totally untrue,' you then repeat a point that not only doesn't make my point untrue, but actually has absolutely no relevance to my statement at all. Which is why I ignored it in the first place:

I also said it's boring to steamroll. But hey, who's counting?

I then asked you why you repeated a point that has nothing to do with the statement you quoted:

I know you said that but what does that have to do with me?

Besides, even though it is boring, if you find yourself steamrolling the other team, you are ruining their fun. Which makes you just as guilty as any twink unless you let them win.

I also reiterated my previous conclusion that if you help steamroll another team, you are ruining the other team's fun just like a twink ruins other people's fun.

Xlorep then chimed in to say I was skewing your response in my favor, which I have clearly shown for the second time now that I did not do:

It was the completion of his argument, which you neglected to mention in your response, skewing it more in your favor is all.



That's a slippery slope you are making there. While I don't write off twinking with terms like "unfair" or "wrong", I can definitely see both sides of the argument on this. That said, you are really using the phrase "ruining their fun" in a spacious manner...

He also claimed I was on the slippery slope that I have just shown I was not on. He also claimed that I was using the phrase 'ruining their fun' in a spacious manner. After making this rediculous claim he does not explain it, but instead goes on to say:

...As he already said, he doesn't find steamrolling any more fun than being steamrolled -- I tend to agree on that point. So, "taking part in the steamrolling" would make him just as guilty of ruining his own fun as ruining the fun of someone else...

He has now repeated the same irrelevant statement that you already repeated. He then elaborates by saying if you are steamrolling you are ruining your own fun as well as the fun of someone else. Even with this elaboration, it is still irrelevant, and he actually repeats my own opinion in the elaboration.

Note the bolded part of his statement compared to my original point (The underlined bit is not bolded because even if you are ruining your own fun, you are still ruining the other teams fun, so it is irrelevant. I wouldn't want him saying I ignored relevant parts that are not relevant again.):

... Yet those same anti-twinks, if they found themselves on a team that outnumbers the opposing team by a margin of 2 to 1, would have no problem steamrolling the smaller team without regard to the fact that they are ruining the other side's fun.

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun...

And finally, on top of claiming I skewed responses I did not skew, claiming I was on a slippery slope I was not on, and claiming I used a phrase in a spacious manner that I did not use in a spacious manner, he calls my argument fallacious as well. But at least we can all rest easy knowing that if we are hopelessly outnumbered in a BG and he is on our team, he will /afk out to leave us even more outnumbered:

...I personally tend to bow out of BG's which are heavily one-sided, it doesn't matter if it is for, or against me as such.

Now, I still think the whole pro-twink/anti-twink argument is an exercise in futility in general, but it would be nice to see arguments that aren't quite so... fallacious.

Now I don't want him accusing me of ignoring the fact that he would bow out if he was on the dominating team as well, so here I am mentioning it. And here I am mentioning that even if he really does do it, I think it is an odd and pointless thing to do.

[caldepen]

Gramps and Xlorep, I love you guys but please why don't start your b-slap thread where you two guys can go at it alone? Or better yet just admit it you two love each other and hug!

Also there is no point quoting the whole previous message. You two are like Doonesbury comics way too wordy too bother reading...

[dgrampa]

Gramps and Xlorep, I love you guys but please why don't start your b-slap thread where you two guys can go at it alone? Or better yet just admit it you two love each other and hug!

Also there is no point quoting the whole previous message. You two are like Doonesbury comics way too wordy too bother reading...

Normally I'd agree there is no need to quote and requote, but every time I leave one minute irrelevant detail out, Xlorep twists it to make it look like I left it out to skew the argument in my favor. So I am not taking any more chances with him and the unfortunate side effect is that I have to quote and reply to every single detail no matter how tedious and irrelevant it is. Trust me, I hate writing it 10x more than you hate reading it. :tongue:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Look, I'm neither angry, nor being "argumentative". I was trying to provide some free advice for dgrampa to adjust/correct the line of reasoning there, since it was not helping his side of the discussion, nothing more, nothing less. I've grown tired of his ad hominem/straw man arguments in response, and have since decided he's not worth the effort, regularly returning to a point that is effectively irrelevant to what I was saying. I've since put him on ignore a very useful aspect of this forum), at least for now, so I don't get "lured" into another face-off with him.

[dgrampa]

Look, I'm neither angry, nor being "argumentative". I was trying to provide some free advice for dgrampa to adjust/correct the line of reasoning there, since it was not helping his side of the discussion, nothing more, nothing less. I've grown tired of his ad hominem/straw man arguments in response, and have since decided he's not worth the effort, regularly returning to a point that is effectively irrelevant to what I was saying. I've since put him on ignore a very useful aspect of this forum), at least for now, so I don't get "lured" into another face-off with him.

Hehe, see what I mean. 3rd time he has accused me of using a 'straw man' argument when there was none used. He likes to throw in terms most people don't understand so they won't be able to wade through his BS.

This is an example of a straw man argument, which you'll notice is his argument, not mine. So after he uses a straw man argument he then accuses me of using one. Ironic, isn't it?
... Winning is fun.
Losing is not fun.
When you win, you are making people not have any fun.
When you win by a lot, you are really making the other side not have any fun.
Therefore, winning by a large margin (or "steamrolling") is the same as having a twink in a BG.


First off, the last part is non sequitur. It simply does not follow.

Second, you are using the margins by which people win or lose as your definition of "ruining" someone's fun. If losing ruined people's fun, and 50% of those who go into a battleground lose, you'd stop having people play in battlegrounds, because it is not fun. Losing is part of the battleground experience, you learn from mistakes, and strive to achieve better in it. The very initial argument of winning = fun and losing = not fun = opposite of fun is not entirely true. Winning is more fun than losing is, sure, but they are not somehow canceling each other out in the process, at least for most people who play battlegrounds (or else, once again, more people would stop playing PvP, despite its popularity)...

As for ad hominem arguments, what he is doing here is confusing the fact that I question some of his moral choices with how I use those questions.. I do not, however, use them to refute his points, which is the definition of ad hominem argumentation. I refute his points with logic, and then throw my observations on top. He is having trouble distinguishing the 2.

It's ok though if he wants to give up I will let it go now as well.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I made the mistake of actually reading his post. sigh. Look, the "straw man" argument I am stating you made is this:

So I will expect an apology from you for that in your next post, since you ALWAYS do the right thing.

It is a straw-man of my position, compounded by being used in an ad hominem way. When I explained my position about bowing out of battlegrounds, your "criticism" is that I "always do the right thing", which I left that statement alone because it was irrelevant, and an attempt at a flame. In actuality, I simply do what works for me, and I don't like wasting my time in things that have no point. With regards to the "steamroll" battlegrounds, my point was that I see no point in playing, either the winning or the losing side, I'd rather leave that BG entirely, and then go to one that at least is slightly more appealing to me (when the whole situation is unappealing in general to begin with). It is the "lesser of two evils" statement which I had brought up before, I'd rather play in a BG that there is a challenge in, rather than a BG where my side is decimating the other side entirely. Of course, I'd rather not be in a battleground at all, but since I want that mount for my dwarf, it is either run through BG's enough to get the marks of honor, or farm runecloth for weeks on end to collect enough to go from ~15% through Honored with Gnomeregan Exiles to Exalted with them. I've already done the Runecloth game once, with my Orc hunter getting his raptor. The battleground is far less boring, and will in the end be considerably less of a time-sink for me. When I can motivate myself to actually go and get into a battleground, that is.

Now really, so far, I've not been angry, or even truly offended by what dgrampa has written. I found some parts distasteful, and the continued use of the distasteful arguments has gotten... wearying. So, to protect myself from dragging this on further, that is why I added him to ignore. I just had to see what his "wonderful" response was to my statement, and he once again has shown a lack of getting the point I wrote.

Oh, and for the record, what he quoted as my "straw-man" argument was preceded by a small, but invariably important detail -- I had on the line before that stated that it was how I had perceived his argument was going, and for him to please correct me if I was wrong. Those little details he left out, change my supposed "straw man" argument into my simply stating what my perception was, allowing for him to correct the perception. Completely different animal.

[dgrampa]

I made the mistake of actually reading his post. sigh. Look, the "straw man" argument I am stating you made is this:

It is a straw-man of my position, compounded by being used in an ad hominem way. When I explained my position about bowing out of battlegrounds, your "criticism" is that I "always do the right thing", which I left that statement alone because it was irrelevant, and an attempt at a flame. In actuality, I simply do what works for me, and I don't like wasting my time in things that have no point. With regards to the "steamroll" battlegrounds, my point was that I see no point in playing, either the winning or the losing side, I'd rather leave that BG entirely, and then go to one that at least is slightly more appealing to me (when the whole situation is unappealing in general to begin with). It is the "lesser of two evils" statement which I had brought up before, I'd rather play in a BG that there is a challenge in, rather than a BG where my side is decimating the other side entirely. Of course, I'd rather not be in a battleground at all, but since I want that mount for my dwarf, it is either run through BG's enough to get the marks of honor, or farm runecloth for weeks on end to collect enough to go from ~15% through Honored with Gnomeregan Exiles to Exalted with them. I've already done the Runecloth game once, with my Orc hunter getting his raptor. The battleground is far less boring, and will in the end be considerably less of a time-sink for me. When I can motivate myself to actually go and get into a battleground, that is.

Yep, big mistake because I will once again show you how you are wrong...

Definition of straw man argument (source (http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html)):
Straw Man occurs when:

an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary

and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument;

"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.)

-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument.

Applied to Xlorep's argument:
Straw Man occurs when:

an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary:

The whole point of the BG is to beat the other team. If you beat the other team, you are in essense, ruining their fun.

and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument:

Actually no, I'm not. But since you don't seem to want to see what I mean, let me explain.

Your logic is flawed here. your path of reasoning appears to be (and correct me if I'm wrong):

Winning is fun.
Losing is not fun.
When you win, you are making people not have any fun.
When you win by a lot, you are really making the other side not have any fun.
Therefore, winning by a large margin (or "steamrolling") is the same as having a twink in a BG.


"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.):

First off, the last part is non sequitur. It simply does not follow.

Second, you are using the margins by which people win or lose as your definition of "ruining" someone's fun. If losing ruined people's fun, and 50% of those who go into a battleground lose, you'd stop having people play in battlegrounds, because it is not fun. Losing is part of the battleground experience, you learn from mistakes, and strive to achieve better in it. The very initial argument of winning = fun and losing = not fun = opposite of fun is not entirely true. Winning is more fun than losing is, sure, but they are not somehow canceling each other out in the process, at least for most people who play battlegrounds (or else, once again, more people would stop playing PvP, despite its popularity).

-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument:

Now, like I said, I don't believe your position is wrong. The logic you are using in that statement, however, is flawed, and does not support your position, but weakens it due to the flawed reasoning.

This is a textbook example of how straw man arguments work. As for my quote you claim is a straw man argument:

So I will expect an apology from you for that in your next post, since you ALWAYS do the right thing.

Where in that quoted line do I set up a straw man? Where do I know it down? Do you even know the definitions of the terms you are using? I know you do because I've seen you quote them before.

Following the same reasoning where is the ad hominem?
Definition of Ad Hominem (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)):

A (fallacious) ad hominem argument has the basic form:

Person A makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person A
Therefore claim X is false

Example of Ad Hominem (same source):

"You claim that this man is innocent, but you cannot be trusted since you are a criminal as well."

While I am poking fun at you I AM NOT using it to refute your argument. I am using it to badger you into an apology. NOT an Ad Hominem argument.

Now really, so far, I've not been angry, or even truly offended by what dgrampa has written. I found some parts distasteful, and the continued use of the distasteful arguments has gotten... wearying. So, to protect myself from dragging this on further, that is why I added him to ignore. I just had to see what his "wonderful" response was to my statement, and he once again has shown a lack of getting the point I wrote.

Oh, and for the record, what he quoted as my "straw-man" argument was preceded by a small, but invariably important detail -- I had on the line before that stated that it was how I had perceived his argument was going, and for him to please correct me if I was wrong. Those little details he left out, change my supposed "straw man" argument into my simply stating what my perception was, allowing for him to correct the perception. Completely different animal.

And here he is citing details I left out that actually hurt his case, not mine. I put them back in. He knocked down his own straw man version of my argument. I then corrected the argument as he asked me to correct, and has since then not been able to knock down the non-straw man version.

[Zendarin]

My head hurts

[dgrampa]

My head hurts

Mine, too. I had to actually research all that. :tongue: Goes to show that

Big words do not always equal logical thinking.

They do however thwart people from understanding what is truly going on.

[Kugan]

Mine, too. I had to actually research all that. :tongue: Goes to show that

Big words do not always equal logical thinking.

They do however thwart people from understanding what is truly going on.

I don't think he was talking about the Big words.. :wink:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

He is continuing to chatter, isn't he.

[Zendarin]

Henceforth, gentlemen, in promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compacted comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency. Eschew all conglomerations of flatulent garrulity, jejune babblement, and asinine affectations.

Let your extemporaneous descantings and unpremeditated expatiations have intelligibility and veracious vivacity, without rodomontade or thrasonical bombast. Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity ventriloquial verbosity, and vaniloquent vapidity. Shun double-entendres, prurient jocosity, and pestiferous profanity, obscurant or apparent!!

[Kugan]

He is continuing to chatter, isn't he.

My comment goes for both of you :grin:.

I can’t really take sides, because I couldn’t really read through any of the posts. They made my head hurt. Which is probably a good thing… it means I can still like both of you :)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

The funny thing is, to my knowledge, I'm not using "big words". I am using correct terms, but I'm not just throwing around terms for the "hell of it".

Like I said, originally, I had no problem with dgrampa's side of this whole twink debate, just saw a potential problem in the approach on one point. From that, he decided to take personal offense, and push the discussion further off-balance, rather than simply taking the advice as it stood. From where I am standing, he seemed to take personal offense, and that was noted in the phrasing of his responses, edging more and more into attacks against my person, rather than a debate on the topic at hand. In order to not be drawn further into that path, as a precaution for myself, I simply now have placed him on ignore. It should help the conversation incredibly, because now, whatever he says will not incite/invoke a response from me, and make things worse.

It is not that I dislike what all dgrampa says, or his views on things, I just am attempting a form of restraint on myself, so that the inflammatory nature of the discussion can cool off, as I don't trust myself to not respond to his statements if/when I read them.

[Tort]

Twinking is not wrong. It is not illegal. It is not against the rules. Blizzard knew what they were doing when they made incredibly powerful enchants such as Mongoose usable on item level 35 weapons.

The whole background of this game is a war between the Horde and the Alliance. Battlegrounds are the areas where this war is most apparent in the game. On this or any other battleground, why would you think its unfair to gear yourself up to such a extent that you can obliterate your enemies? Thats the whole point of war! If this enrages you, and you are too lazy or disinterested to do something about it, then you have no business pvping in the first place.

There will always be someone better than you in this game, the sooner you realize this the better.

[Dhoum]

There will always be someone better than you in this game, the sooner you realize this the better.

Being better geared is not the same as being better at the game. Why would Blizzard attempt balancing BGs if it weren't an issue? The fact that they failed is not an indication that they didn't want to succeed.

These discussions do actually make a difference, in terms of point of view I have changed from being 100% anti-twink to being 100% against twinks and levellers competing against each other. I can see that there is an artistry and skill in building and playing a twink, but I don't see why any twinks would want to be in the same battlegroup as levelling characters, where's the challenge? Why are the pro-twinks arguing so strenuously that things should be left as they are, rather than finding a way of maximising their enjoyment of the game by facing off against equally geared opponents? The only answer I can think of is that the people who are yelling loudest about maintaining the status quo, about not attempting to contribute to the process that Blizzard started and failed to implement properly, those people just enjoy "pwning n00bs" ... and those people are beneath contempt.

[Icefrost]

Henceforth, gentlemen, in promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compacted comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency. Eschew all conglomerations of flatulent garrulity, jejune babblement, and asinine affectations.

Let your extemporaneous descantings and unpremeditated expatiations have intelligibility and veracious vivacity, without rodomontade or thrasonical bombast. Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity ventriloquial verbosity, and vaniloquent vapidity. Shun double-entendres, prurient jocosity, and pestiferous profanity, obscurant or apparent!!

Bumping into this made wading through all those long posts by Xlorep & dgrampa worth all the time it took me. Boy did I laugh.:laugh:

[bwirum]

By steamrolling me you are ruining my fun, hence twinking is bad.
By letting me steamroll you, you are also ruining my fun, hence not twinking is bad.
Conclusion must be that battlegrounds are inherentely bad and should be removed from the game. Clearly.

[dgrampa]

Wow, talk about non sequiturs and straw men. :laugh: But at least when phrased this way it does apply to my statement.

Set up the straw man:
By steamrolling me you are ruining my fun, hence twinking is bad.
By letting me steamroll you, you are also ruining my fun, hence not twinking is bad.

And knock it down with sarcasm:
Conclusion must be that battlegrounds are inherentely bad and should be removed from the game. Clearly.

Ruining someone's fun is not bad, it is merely a side effect of any PvP game. While a non twink is making it possible for you to steamroll him, it is ultimately your own choice as to whether you continue with the steamroll or not.

[Altaris]

Twinks are not inherently bad. However, there are too many people who use their twinks to bully other players, thus giving all twinks a bad name.

The best twinks are the premades who play well, coordinate and use tactics, and win without farming kills or doing the /chicken or /spit and other such nonsense immaturity.

[snowieken]

I dislike twinks since I love low level BG's just to pause from leveling, but twinks aren't necessarily bad. Twink threads however, are an invention of Satan.

[degnar]

Twinks are not inherently bad. However, there are too many people who use their twinks to bully other players, thus giving all twinks a bad name.


This is a big part of the problem. As I see it, there are two types of "over-geared" players:
1) Twinks who truly are trying to min/max, get the best gear, look for challenges, and generally ignore "normal" players (or at least kill quickly and move on :wink:)
2) Self-centered bullys who get enjoyment out of using their uber-gear to 1-shot other players. Essentially just focus on their own game experience, and don't care about anyone else. This is the same type of player who takes a level 70 to camp Redridge Mountains.

If you are a twink, resist the temptation to fall into category 2.

The other big problem is expectations. Some players expect twinking, and just accept it as part of the game. Others excpect that the battlegrounds will be balanced and get frustrated when they run into twinks. Until Blizzard does something very definitive to set expectations, this problem will always exist.

What can Blizzard do? Some thoughts:
- give "over-geared" players a different icon. i.e. use the silver and gold dragons like for elite mobs. Put a "+" after their level. Something like that based on a player's gear.
- define some battleground-specific gear. Only available in the BG. When players enter a BG, they can choose to wear this gear, or else their current gear. (i.e. Horde and Alliance are sending their soldiers to war... they should gear them appropriately). This gear would be better than normal, and directed toward PvP, but not as good as anything a twink could put together.
- ??


(Ugh... sucked into this debate again....)

...friend. Some people started posting, not knowing what it was, and they'll continue posting forever just because -This is the thread that will not end, yes it goes on and on my.....

[xDarkDrifterx]

The fact that they failed is not an indication that they didn't want to succeed..

Says you. They balanced it as best they could. But there's to many twinks and semi-twinks and fewer non twinks - so to keep BG's alive and running for those non twinks they have to accept that there's going to a few twinks in every BG. I find that the BG's are more balanced than they used to be before TBC was released . . . talk about getting steamrolled then. All the ppl that rolled after TBC you guys don't even know how it used to be . . . lol

I can take any of my 26+ 36+ etc toons into the BG's and do well enough to enjoy myself fully. I have a semi-twink (lacking gear enchants) that I bg with and other toons like my priest (non twink - but most gear slots have at least +stam) that I bg with too. I can kill twinks, and hold my own, and yes rogues still one shot my priest on occasion. That's to be expected.

but I don't see why any twinks would want to be in the same battlegroup as levelling characters, where's the challenge?

There's always a challenge b/c there's always 2-5 twinks in every BG I go to on my lowbies. And people like myself enjoy the thoughts that I helped others get some honor and marks for the day, hopefully more than they would have had without me and the other couple guys that are blowing the top off the charts. I've even been thanked and some people remember me. It's a nice by-product of me having fun. It also pumps up the group thats in the BG and everyone seems to do better and work better together - winning does that for most people especially teenage kids.

_______


Honestly for everyone complaining - BG at a different time. In my battlegroup the most twinks are out in the evening, roughly when people are getting home form work or after the kids get put to bed. So BG on the weekends during the morning or afternoon when alot of non-twinks are out in the BG's. It helps. :smiley:

[dgrampa]

I dislike twinks since I love low level BG's just to pause from leveling, but twinks aren't necessarily bad. Twink threads however, are an invention of Satan.

Haha, well said.

Twinks are not inherently bad. However, there are too many people who use their twinks to bully other players, thus giving all twinks a bad name.

This is exactly why when I am on my twink, and other twinks on my team are being immature idiots, I mock them until they see the foolishness of their ways.

The best twinks are the premades who play well, coordinate and use tactics, and win without farming kills or doing the /chicken or /spit and other such nonsense immaturity.

Don't forget, however, that griefing existed long before WoW, or even twinks. How many QQ threads have we all seen on the topic of 60s or 70s corpse camping lowbies? I've been /spit on countless times by non-twinks simply because I am a twink as well.

[Zendarin]

Haha, well said.

This is exactly why when I am on my twink, and other twinks on my team are being immature idiots, I mock them until they see the foolishness of their ways.


now go away or I will taunt you a second time...

[dgrampa]

now go away or I will taunt you a second time...


wth?
123456

[caldepen]

Being better geared is not the same as being better at the game.

Yes it is, thats what this game is about. Whenever I hear someone talking about their madskillz I laugh. Playing WoW = 99%gear + 1%skill. I don't care if the Michael Jordan of WoW steps up to the battle. With my balanced stam/agi twink hunter a couple of nontwinks can bounce around me all day and not put a dent on me. My, my those pesky mosquito's are annoying today...

A good WoW player is the one with good gear.

[caldepen]

I just watched that solo horseman vid... so i'd like to change my statistics to 88% gear and 12% skill. Hows that?

[Zendarin]

wth?
123456

Monty Python reference. Sorry, just reminded me of that when you threatened your group with being "mocked" lol. They must be silly British Kunniggitts.

[rgirty]

Playing WoW = 99%gear + 1%skill

Tell that to 7 who downed illidan in a considerable amount of non tbc gear, 7 weeks after tbc was available to them.

[Herald of Doom]

Sir Lancelot: We were in the nick of time. You were in great peril.
Sir Galahad: I don't think I was.
Sir Lancelot: Yes, you were. You were in terrible peril.
Sir Galahad: Look, let me go back in there and face the peril.
Sir Lancelot: No, it's too perilous.
Sir Galahad: Look, it's my duty as a knight to sample as much peril as I can.
Sir Lancelot: No, we've got to find the Holy Grail. Come on.
Sir Galahad: Oh, let me have just a little bit of peril?
Sir Lancelot: No. It's unhealthy.
Sir Galahad: I bet you're gay.
Sir Lancelot: Am not.


What? Twink discussions are boring anyway :>

HoD

[caldepen]

Tell that to 7 who downed illidan in a considerable amount of non tbc gear, 7 weeks after tbc was available to them.

It is examples like those that made me change my answer to 88/12! Didn't you read the next post? And I am not trying to put down the game or insult anybody. It is just crystal clear to me that the point of the game is to get geared out. So in order to be a good player you should have good gear... they go hand in hand. How could you not have decent gear if you played the game well?

[rgirty]

It is examples like those that made me change my answer to 88/12! Didn't you read the next post? And I am not trying to put down the game or insult anybody. It is just crystal clear to me that the point of the game is to get geared out. So in order to be a good player you should have good gear... they go hand in hand. How could you not have decent gear if you played the game well?

The point of the game for me, is to have fun enjoy myself and meet people/make friends who share interests with me.

The point of the game for me is not to pull up my char screen and mouse over my gear.

Some people do that, but i'm not one of them. No offense intended.

[caldepen]

The point of the game for me is not to pull up my char screen and mouse over my gear.

What? Somebody missing the point in a twink thread? What a shock.

So you just run around naked chatting to people? Or do you roll for the equipment you need in instances and keep an eye on the AH for good deals? I thought so...

The point I was trying to make is that just by playing the game well you will have good gear. There is no such thing as a great WoW player with crappy gear.