Everyone has a price...

[maladroit2000]

I realise I am skating over thin ice here but I would like some honest opinions.

Say you are giving up the game and have no intention of returning. You have a high level toon with excellent gear - lets say a mixture of Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear. A number of people in your guild are interesting in purchasing your account and will pay a not inconsiderable sum of money (lets say £250). Also imagine you are a student teacher and that £250 could make a big difference.

What do you do?

[Urbanink]

I realise I am skating over thin ice here but I would like some honest opinions.

Say you are giving up the game and have no intention of returning. You have a high level toon with excellent gear - lets say a mixture of Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear. A number of people in your guild are interesting in purchasing your account and will pay a not inconsiderable sum of money (lets say £250). Also imagine you are a student teacher and that £250 could make a big difference.

What do you do?

just make sure u get da cash b4 u give da pass :P

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I realise I am skating over thin ice here but I would like some honest opinions.

Say you are giving up the game and have no intention of returning. You have a high level toon with excellent gear - lets say a mixture of Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear. A number of people in your guild are interesting in purchasing your account and will pay a not inconsiderable sum of money (lets say £250). Also imagine you are a student teacher and that £250 could make a big difference.

What do you do?

I'd not sell the account, since it is a breach of the ToU/EULA. Account sales are not recognized by Blizzard.

[Polaba]

I'd not sell the account, since it is a breach of the ToU/EULA. Account sales are not recognized by Blizzard.

Not to be mean, Xlorep, but I think its easily understandable that she doesn't really care about that...lol.

However, I would not sell the account. Not because it breaches the ToS, but because giving up a T4/T5 toon is a BIG deal and you might regret it someday. (Also, give it to Polaba? :D)

[maladroit2000]

I'd not sell the account, since it is a breach of the ToU/EULA. Account sales are not recognized by Blizzard.

I know this, but in the hypothetical situation above the person would not really be bothered by the Eula since he has given up the game anyway. The choice is between letting the account sit inactive or letting a friend play it and getting £250 to help fund a college course.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I know this, but in the hypothetical situation above the person would not really be bothered by the Eula since he has given up the game anyway. The choice is between letting the account sit inactive and or letting a friend play it and getting £250 to help fund a college course.

So the question is whether or not to rob a friend of £250, since if/when Blizzard identifies the account as being sold (which arguably, is not necessarily going to happen), the account will be banned...

I'd still not sell the account. It is a disservice to an afore-mentioned friend at the very least (for the reason I explained). It also is not mine to sell. Any more than the Golden Gate Bridge is mine to sell.

[maladroit2000]

So the question is whether or not to rob a friend of £250, since if/when Blizzard identifies the account as being sold (which arguably, is not necessarily going to happen), the account will be banned...

I'd still not sell the account. It is a disservice to an afore-mentioned friend at the very least (for the reason I explained). It also is not mine to sell. Any more than the Golden Gate Bridge is mine to sell.

Interesting opinion. By the way, the person would be well aware of the risks - lets say it was their idea in the first place, so it cannot be called "robbing".

[Polaba]

Make sure your friend knows of the risks. Its like giving someone a dog with Malaria or something, just tell your friend the dog might die before you give him it :P

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Interesting opinion. By the way, the person would be well aware of the risks - lets say it was their idea in the first place, so it cannot be called "robbing".

It would still end up being my decision. And I couldn't go through with it, in good conscience.

[Shellar]

I realise I am skating over thin ice here but I would like some honest opinions.

Say you are giving up the game and have no intention of returning. You have a high level toon with excellent gear - lets say a mixture of Tier 4 and Tier 5 gear. A number of people in your guild are interesting in purchasing your account and will pay a not inconsiderable sum of money (lets say £250). Also imagine you are a student teacher and that £250 could make a big difference.

What do you do?
As long as I'm completely sure that I really have no intention of returning, I'd go for it.

[det]

Maladroit set up a situation that is just too tempting (you might say imbalanced or biased in one way).

It is just like the questions that were asked to people in Germany who didn't want to do the draft. "Your girlfrind is about to get assaulted and you have a shotgun, what do you do?"

I had a lv 92 toon on the D2 HC ladder when I quit. I never intended to sell any of the account or the gear and won't do it in WoW. Not because it is against any rules...I just wouldn't.

[inkmva]

Personally I'm not that straped for cash, but I do see the lure.

Allthough, being a guildmaster I've seen my fair share of people quit the game and sell of their accounts because "they where done and needed the money". Mostly all of them have leveled up another toon sooner or later, more or less embarased. It's quite amazing to watch truth be told ;).

[Naolin]

I would sell my account if I had no intention of returning whatsoever, however I would warn the buyer of the risk but really if I would quit the ToS/EULA can go shoot itself in the foot :p

[frimley]

Not particularly worried about what the ToU/EULA says (although I would bring it to said friend's attention if I were in this situation). However, at the moment - I can't foresee this:

As long as I'm completely sure that I really have no intention of returning, I'd go for it.

[Aerath]

I wouldn't sell it.

Quite simply - it's my character and I built its reputation. I'm not going to let some random nitwit (or not so random nitwit in this case) ruin its name.

And I can't help but feel this is slightly more than a hypothetical situation.

[bwirum]

I feel pretty much the same way as Aerath on this.

It's MY char. MY work. And I know that however I may feel today, that I am never going to return to this game ever again, I'm the kinda guy that may or may not change my mind in a few weeks, months, even a year or more. It would suck having to start all over then.

Not as concerned about the EULA/TOS in this particular situation as I am with the above fact. And yes, it does seem not so hypothetical to me :wink:

[YujiTFD]

My respect flying out to det, Aerath and bwirum.

All the same - it's my time, my sweat, my blood, my passion, my love at last! How can I possibly sell anything from this list? After you spent months (or even years) on nurturing your precious(sss! :) one - how can you entrust him or her to somebody else?

My WoW friend restored his chars after deleting all of them due to family troubles. He explained that he didn't want any distractions and decided to abandon WoW for good but returned. We never know what will happen in the future and saying "I'm completely sure that I won't play anymore" makes me think person is getting ready to the euthanasia or suicide, since I cannot think of anything else what can prevent playing WoW once and for all.

It's all my personal opinion, obviously :)

P.S. If somebody will offer $1 mln. for my account I might rethink the case, but it's more hypothetical situation. ;)

[Aerath]

Oh, like Yuji, I'm sure there's a price where I'd be tempted/persuaded.

However, that price isn't remotely realistic/feasible. I have no objections to becoming a millionaire overnight. :smiley:

[moopy]

The people who are saying "of course your friend will lose the account" are quite frankly talking utter horsefeathers. I know a lot of people who have given/loaned accounts to friends who have played them for the past year without problems. I wouldn't want other people driving my toons (because they're mine, damnit), but for those that don't care, it's a non-issue unless the recipient is stupid enough to buy powerlevelling etc. Of course if you suddenly hand over a full t6 toon with the illidan weapons, they're be high-profile enough that half the server will report them, but for less exceptional toons, it's a complete non-issue.

Still, I wouldn't want to do it, as they're my toons, and people are used to me driving them- I wouldn't want someone to try and group with them and get a nasty shock. Consider how friends might feel if they invite you to something and it's some random loon who isn't you, and wastes their time- I think that would be pretty annoying :)

[MixiMan]

Still, I wouldn't want to do it, as they're my toons, and people are used to me driving them- I wouldn't want someone to try and group with them and get a nasty shock. Consider how friends might feel if they invite you to something and it's some random loon who isn't you, and wastes their time- I think that would be pretty annoying :)

That made me chuckle. I just imagined RL account selling:tongue:

"Sure you can have my saturday account, but you will have to visit my Gf's mom on sundays and pay me 100$"

Weird to say the least, and it is the same way i would feel about selling my beloved toon's. I don't want somebody running around on my Mage and disappointing ( or positively surprising ) the people i group with.

[Oosel]

im in that situation but with my eve online account. i played from beta 3 and have an account that started from day1 retail with over 60mill skill points. when most of what i played eve for got nerfed i started to play less and less and play wow more and more up to today when i rarely if ever play eve.

i still pay monthly for eve just to keep the skills up and get regular offers of £1k for the toon as hes one of the oldest in the game and very rich but i cant understand why i cant get past the thought of selling my account when i no longer play it

[mesonm]

I realise I am skating over thin ice here but I would like some honest opinions........

Also imagine you are a student teacher and that £250 could make a big difference.

What do you do?

Imagine that your students find out that you intentionally violated a contract...for a mere 250.

What would that teach them?

[Katrala]

I see a few sides to it...

If the person that took the account isn't familiar with that class, then the people that play with them will suffer until they learn it (if they ever do).

I've had countless PUGs where, in the middle of the instance, a "friend" will take over playing the toon. Either that or I'll hear something about, "Sorry, I'm not used to playing a priest."

Is it against the ToS to give your account name and password to someone else or just to receive payment for the account name and password?

Imagine that your students find out that you intentionally violated a contract...for a mere 250.

What would that teach them?

It would teach them that the OP is human and does things just like they do sometimes. Teachers aren't perfect, ya know. ;)

I can say that during my student teaching I recall being painfully poor - you are pretty much unable to work except on weekends (and even then you're tired since you're not used to the work and have to plan extra-hard for the next week) and you are paying the university to student teach, not the other way around!

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I wouldn't sell it.

Quite simply - it's my character and I built its reputation. I'm not going to let some random nitwit (or not so random nitwit in this case) ruin its name.

And I can't help but feel this is slightly more than a hypothetical situation.

That is a good point as well.

[Naolin]

hmm I see a lot posts saying things about ruining your characters reputation, but isn't that really a minor point if you quitting anyways? if you don't sell you dissapear into thin air and won't have a reputation at all.

Anyways for sure I would let my ingame friends know it isn't me on my account if I would sell.

[xDarkDrifterx]

Keep it. You'll be back once WoTLK is released whether you think you will now or not, if even to just sample a DeathKnight for a bit every once and a while.

[piscene]

I wouldn't let the account go unless it's been a long while since you played it, and are really sure you aren't coming back. So many people think they are going to quit, but end up returning. It would be a shame to throw away that much work, only to regret it later.

[tralkar]

It like saying, i killed him becouse im cleaning up the school of ugly kids, Its still wrong and hope you get busted..

[piscene]

It like saying, i killed him becouse im cleaning up the school of ugly kids,

I don't have the slightest idea what that means. Selling an account is like killing ugly people??? Eh??

[Zachariah]

Interesting to see what peoples reactions are, especially Oosell's post about his Eve character.

For many people, the toon IS the person and the idea of selling it is no more entertaining than selling a limb for profit. It's a reflection of your personality and all the time and effort you've put in to making it what it is. It's not a damn consumer good to be traded for filthy lucre.

And not even that much - £250 ($500) for something that took you months and months to create? Something that occupied your waking life for all those hours and you're flogging it off for half what you'll make in a week once you're a qualified teacher? Get some backbone, man - you're not fit to teach children if this is how you value your own labour.

There's a reason why people who bought their account are regarded with contempt and derision by the players who built theirs up from lvl 1.

[dgrampa]

Interesting to see what peoples reactions are, especially Oosell's post about his Eve character.

For many people, the toon IS the person and the idea of selling it is no more entertaining than selling a limb for profit. It's a reflection of your personality and all the time and effort you've put in to making it what it is. It's not a damn consumer good to be traded for filthy lucre.

And not even that much - £250 ($500) for something that took you months and months to create? Something that occupied your waking life for all those hours and you're flogging it off for half what you'll make in a week once you're a qualified teacher? Get some backbone, man - you're not fit to teach children if this is how you value your own labour.

There's a reason why people who bought their account are regarded with contempt and derision by the players who built theirs up from lvl 1.

The other side of that coin is that it is only a game and you wouldn't flush $500 down the toilet.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

hmm I see a lot posts saying things about ruining your characters reputation, but isn't that really a minor point if you quitting anyways? if you don't sell you dissapear into thin air and won't have a reputation at all.

Anyways for sure I would let my ingame friends know it isn't me on my account if I would sell.

Part of the problem of the original hypothesis was it is based on an absolute -- the idea of absolutely knowing you'll never come back to playing WoW. The thing about absolutes is.... they don't tend to work in the real world. Building a hypothetical situation around an absolute like the OP did is not a realistic, or even very reasonable presumption to make.

[inkmva]

Whenever I've toyed with the idea of selling off something like this, I've just done some simple math.

Most of my playing has been night time or in weekends, both in which I'd make about $50 an hour since it's overtime.

Multiply that by a couple of thosand hours for the toons and you'd have a silly amount of money.

Since no one will be able to compensate me what I feel my time (and hey what my boss feels this same time) is worth selling is out of the question.

Naturally, this is logic is beyond flawed but to me, so is selling my account ;).

[Oosel]

a game yes but also something you have worked hard at to build up. in some cases when you have had a strong corp/guild it can even build up real life friendships and so when the game starts to wane for you its difficult to just give it up as you have real life friends from within the game and i kid you not i feel like im somehow letting my eve friends down when playing wow...then again wow isnt viewed favourably by a vast majority of eve addicts which is a pity as both games imho are unique in their own way

[Shellar]

Actually, now that I think of it, if I was truly going to quit WoW forever, and a close RL friend was interested in my account, I'd give it away. For free.

[YujiTFD]

hmm I see a lot posts saying things about ruining your characters reputation, but isn't that really a minor point if you quitting anyways? if you don't sell you dissapear into thin air and won't have a reputation at all.

Anyways for sure I would let my ingame friends know it isn't me on my account if I would sell.

As I said earlier: you cannot know for sure did you leave forever or just having different thoughts about it, unless you are scheduled for life processes termination. We are now having WotLK announced with single Hero class (promises for more), wide-open PvP, new raids, including revitalised Naxxaramas and so on. Blizzard won't sit and wait for money income, since analysts already announced their opinion that WotLK could have lesser sales than TBC, they will promise more and fight for more.

Everquest by SOE launched March 16, 1999, 13 expansions released, "Secrets of Faydwer" scheduled for November, 13th, 2007 what makes 14 expansions up to this moment. 2008 Blizzard will release 2nd expansion only, God knows what more they can think of. My personal appetiser is Caverns of Time: WotLK will has new 80s 5-man instance, they can play with time shifts as much as they like. It's just my thoughts but...

I don't know will such comparison fit discussion, but if you're moving to another place, you can literally $hit your way out, since at the new place you'll be nice guy again?

Actually, now that I think of it, if I was truly going to quit WoW forever, and a close RL friend was interested in my account, I'd give it away. For free.
A++! Absolutely.

[maladroit2000]

Rather unsuprisingly, the hypothetical scenario in the original post is actually true, and it is me in that position. I no longer have the time to play the game, other than in the occasional 1 hour session, and won't have much time in the next two years. I'm bored with the game anyway.

I haven't decided what I will do yet but the main consideration in my mind is that £250. I think I might use it for a luxury I could not have afforded otherwise - perhaps I will put it towards a trip to Kiev or an electric piano I want. Perhaps I will piss it away in the pub (100 pints of Guinness!)

I am also considering giving the account to the officers in the guild - they have already offered to pay the sub. That way they get a druid with epic tank/dps/heal kit to fill out whatever spot is needed in a raid, along with 8k gold to respec with and to dip into for various needs. Also, that way they say I can come back if I want.

Either way, thanks for the opinions - it has clarified my thinking. I expected a very aggressive reaction but instead got some nicely thought out replies. Thank you.

As me for me not being fit to be a teacher because I want to sell a character I made in a computer game, all I can say is... HA.

[Polaba]

I am also considering giving the account to the officers in the guild - they have already offered to pay the sub. That way they get a druid with epic tank/dps/heal kit to fill out whatever spot is needed in a raid, along with 8k gold to respec with and to dip into for various needs.

Do NOT do that, imo, you might get cheated and the chance of the account being banned is much bigger.

[Levangoth]

Keep it. You'll be back once WoTLK is released whether you think you will now or not, if even to just sample a DeathKnight for a bit every once and a while.

Exactly what I was thinking. I have a few mates who quit well before BC came out and got sucked right back in to try the new content. Think about it, how many times have you put down a game (whether it be an MMO or not) and thought you would never play it again, only to discover that in 3 months time you pick it up again.

I do it with console games all the time. Id be so annoyed if I had lost the hours I put into it. Next time you're online check you're /played. I have never put so much time into one game, I'd be crushed. I bet you would feel the same.

[Zachariah]

As me for me not being fit to be a teacher because I want to sell a character I made in a computer game, all I can say is... HA.

Re-read and you'll see that it's nothing to do with it being a game character - it's the value you've placed on your time, which for a toon with T5 gear will be immense. Come on, £250? Think what message you're sending to people when you exchange your blood, sweat and tears for a really small amount of cash.

If your class knew all about this, they would lose all respect for you and I wouldn't blame them. Don't believe me? Tell them.

Think how many holidays you could afford if you had spent all that time working. A damn sight more than £250's worth, I can tell you. Look at your financial stements and you might be surprised to see you've already pi$$ed lots more than £250 away on drink already this year. The money will quickly be gone and you'll hate yourself for all the time you ever spent online for such a petty reward.

[piscene]

Think what message you're sending to people when you exchange your blood, sweat and tears for a really small amount of cash..

This argument only works if you think of the time spent playing as your blood, sweat and tears. I think of it as leisure time, which has a value only in my mind. It is worth a lot in terms of my sanity, but I don't value it more than that. Someone wants to give me $500 for leisure time that I already spent? Okay.

I think it's a matter of how personally you take your gaming, and the toons that you have built. Some take it much more personally than others.

[maladroit2000]

Re-read and you'll see that it's nothing to do with it being a game character - it's the value you've placed on your time, which for a toon with T5 gear will be immense. Come on, £250? Think what message you're sending to people when you exchange your blood, sweat and tears for a really small amount of cash.

If your class knew all about this, they would lose all respect for you and I wouldn't blame them. Don't believe me? Tell them.

Think how many holidays you could afford if you had spent all that time working. A damn sight more than £250's worth, I can tell you. Look at your financial stements and you might be surprised to see you've already pi$$ed lots more than £250 away on drink already this year. The money will quickly be gone and you'll hate yourself for all the time you ever spent online for such a petty reward.


That is all kind of silly. I wasn't playing the game to earn money. The choice I have now is to take £250 or not to take £250. The amount of time I have played (played, not worked!) in the past is not important.

[Shellar]

Exactly what I was thinking. I have a few mates who quit well before BC came out and got sucked right back in to try the new content. Think about it, how many times have you put down a game (whether it be an MMO or not) and thought you would never play it again, only to discover that in 3 months time you pick it up again.
If one really wants to quit this addictive habit, but does not trust his or her willpower, then selling one's account can be an effective psychological measure (sort of like burning bridges or crossing Rubicon).

[tralkar]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tralkar
It like saying, i killed him becouse im cleaning up the school of ugly kids,
Quote:
Originally posted by piscene
I don't have the slightest idea what that means. Selling an account is like killing ugly people??? Eh??

NO,... Im saying its wrong no matter what you do. If you killed someone for a reson or not its still wrong.. Like w.o.w its still wrong to sell even if the money is for school..

[Kugan]

NO,... Im saying its wrong no matter what you do. If you killed someone for a reson or not its still wrong.. Like w.o.w its still wrong to sell even if the money is for school..

You have a good point. The thought of selling my character is a bit too horrible to contemplate. Someone else going through my stuff, making my character do stuff (talk about loss of control), talking to my friends. I just won’t be able to do it.

The thought of killing ugly people is too horrible to contemplate as well… all that blood, the cleaning up that needs to be done afterwards…

Edit: A better example for you to use might be killing someone who wants to die, and who has no life worth speaking of due to illness/accidents. Although I don’t think anyone here will be in the mood to argue whether it’s right or wrong.

[theshard]

Think how many holidays you could afford if you had spent all that time working. A damn sight more than £250's worth, I can tell you. Look at your financial stements and you might be surprised to see you've already pi$$ed lots more than £250 away on drink already this year. The money will quickly be gone and you'll hate yourself for all the time you ever spent online for such a petty reward.

If anything, that would convince me to sell/quit WoW. When you start viewing the game as time that could have been spent working for more money vs a "petty reward".

However, I also would later regret selling my account. Then again, I never get rid of anything.

[Shellar]

NO,... Im saying its wrong no matter what you do. If you killed someone for a reson or not its still wrong.. Like w.o.w its still wrong to sell even if the money is for school..
Counter-point: Since I invented my account name and password, they constitute my own intellectual property that I can use, sell, give away or trade. :cool:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Counter-point: Since I invented my account name and password, they constitute my own intellectual property that I can use, sell, give away or trade. :cool:

The account name and password, sure. However, the account itself is Blizzard's intellectual property, sitting on Blizzard's servers (of course, the intellectual property argument is of questionable merit in an argument like this, unfortunately due to the weakness/vagueness of virtual property in legal situations).

Look, it honestly still falls under the "Blizzard's house, Blizzard's rules". Even if you were to hypothetically never play the game again, and therefore be legally no longer bound to the EULA/ToU, it is breaking the rules. The example that springs to mind is the friend who borrows some movies (or video games, whatever) of yours. Then, the friendship is over, and he doesn't return the movies. Is it right for him to keep the movies (effectively stealing them from you), or to return the movies back to you, even if the friendship is over?

[Valas Azuviir]

I am also considering giving the account to the officers in the guild - they have already offered to pay the sub. That way they get a druid with epic tank/dps/heal kit to fill out whatever spot is needed in a raid, along with 8k gold to respec with and to dip into for various needs. Also, that way they say I can come back if I want.


This sort of things I've seen before, and I can at least understand it. It's for the good of the guild. I can even respect such a choice, even if I might personally disagree with it.

But selling it? Nope. Doesn't fly with me.

Then again, I like to write stories every now and then, when I can find the time and the muse hits me over the head with a clue bat. I wouldn't want someone else to mess with my writings either. So, I'm most likely biased.

[Kasal]

Intellectual property. ToS. Eula. Value of your time. Reflection of your personality. Not fit to be a teacher. Like selling a limb.

My goodness, maladroit, the reaction might have been more muted had you openly contemplated having sex with an aardvark.

Just a thought: what if she had said she was thinking of giving it away? Does that change things? If so, then all the above arguments are hogwash and hypocrisy, because now we're just talking about the exchange of a sum of money and nothing more.

If it doesn't, then we're saying that Blizzard would rather have you shut down the account for good rather than have someone else take up the monthly payments. Or that if your hands have ever played a toon, then no one else should ever be allowed to touch it. Period. Ever.

Either way... it may be a well-intended argument, but I daresay it ain't a logical one.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

IJust a thought: what if she had said she was thinking of giving it away? Does that change things? If so, then all the above arguments are hogwash and hypocrisy, because now we're just talking about the exchange of a sum of money and nothing more.

Doesn't change a thing.


8. Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items.
Blizzard does not recognize the transfer of Accounts. You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Blizzard owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Program. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service. Blizzard does not recognize any virtual property transfers executed outside of the Game or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell items for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game.

Pretty cut and dry.

If it doesn't, then we're saying that Blizzard would rather have you shut down the account for good rather than have someone else take up the monthly payments. Or that if your hands have ever played a toon, then no one else should ever be allowed to touch it. Period. Ever.

Exactly. Or rather, if you are the name that is on the account, nobody else should touch that account, period, ever. Blizzard's house, Blizzard's rules.

[Primed]

I've already put my number down. $2500 US. Anything less, nope. Anything Higher, yep.

Chances somebody will pay that much for my account? 0.

[Kasal]

I know, I know. It's the will of the individual against the Blizzard covenant we give ourselves over to. It's an old conversation, and you are, of course, right on the money. For the record, I am well familiar with the terms of the contract.

Personally I will never sell gold, I will never buy gold, I will never level up for a third party or have a third party level up on my behalf. Ad infinitum. But I'll be damned if I won't let my 10 year old fart around with my hunter for an hour a couple of times a week, or sell off an old main's gear and send the gold to a friend so he can buy his epic flying, or tell an OP who has contributed maybe $1000 to Blizzard's coffers she can't transfer her toon to someone else who can enjoy it.

You call it anarchy. I call it common sense.

[irogue]

Doesn't change a thing.



Pretty cut and dry.



Exactly. Or rather, if you are the name that is on the account, nobody else should touch that account, period, ever. Blizzard's house, Blizzard's rules.

Darn! I need to report more than half of ppl I met in WOW because they allowed their family members (spouse/sibling/kids/parents) or RL friends to play on their account.

Wait. I need to report myself because I let my nephew to play on my account for 2 hours 9 months ago.

[Katrala]

If you consider the game to be "work," and calculate hours based on your normal job, then why do you play?

You put effort into the game, you get out enjoyment. If you're putting in more effort than enjoyment you're receiving, you need to quit playing. Otherwise, you're even.

And I can promise you that most kids would more than understand. :)

[cyradis2003]

In honesty I would say she should think very very hard about whether she will ever want to play again. I would also say that she should in good conscience also give over control of the email address on the account IF she decides to sell/give away the account. If you can't do that then it really would be a matter of time before they lost it to Blizzard.

Real life issues have to come first. The account was not bought and leveled as a product to sell but now that it is leveled it has a value. If I was in dire financial straits I might think hard about selling my account if it would mean making my rent or car payment that month. Some times things we love as a hobby wind up being worth something, it was not the original intention but in some situations you do what you have to do to get through. If that means selling a gaming account to pay for a college course then really I don't think it is my place to judge your actions EXCEPT that the question was posted on a hellfire and brimstone anti-cheating forum. The answer has to be don't sell it because that is the stance these forums take on rule breaking.

If I was going to rob a bank I wouldn't discuss it with an off duty cop beforehand.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

But I'll be damned if I won't let my 10 year old fart around with my hunter for an hour a couple of times a week, or sell off an old main's gear and send the gold to a friend so he can buy his epic flying, or tell an OP who has contributed maybe $1000 to Blizzard's coffers she can't transfer her toon to someone else who can enjoy it.

Actually, your 10-year-old falls into the one exception to that rule, there is an exception for children/parents in the ToU/EULA.

What do you mean by "...tell an OP who has contributed maybe..."

[Kasal]

Actually, your 10-year-old falls into the one exception to that rule, there is an exception for children/parents in the ToU/EULA.

What do you mean by "...tell an OP who has contributed maybe..."

I was referring to how much the original poster must have spent in monthly fees over the course of the toon's lifetime. My math ($1000) might be a bit off, but the point of my argument is the same.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I was referring to how much the original poster must have spent in monthly fees over the course of the toon's lifetime. My math ($1000) might be a bit off, but the point of my argument is the same.

Ahh, you meant the original poster when you said OP in that phrase. Gotcha.

However, with that argument, I'm not going to tell the OP that he/she can transfer the account. I will point out the rules, and explain that personally, I'd not do it, for any number of the reasons that people here have presented in this thread. However, when it is all said and done, it is the OP's personal decision to do so. I have seen a lot of people regret making the decision to sell their WoW (or other subscription-based) accounts, only to eventually, even a year or so later want to pick the game (or other service) back up again, only to have to start completely from scratch.

And it is important for me to point out, yet again, that if the OP does choose to sell the account and plans on never playing WoW again to boot, in the end, the OP (seller) is not held accountable to the EULA/ToU. The buyer is, however.

[unbdm]

to argue the rules is silly, Blizz is very clear with their rules. that said, it's a silly game, if I was done, and somebody wanted the toon, I would sell it.

I would feel bad about my in game friends that would have to deal with the new owner... I would warn the friends I trust, and could catch on line, and I would likely gquit before turn over.... but hey, it's basicaly free money since you're done anyway.... I would never let anyone play my toon, for the reasons mentioned by moopy and others... the toons are so personalized I wouldn't want somebody on my account... but if I'm done... vio con dios

Best Regards,
Barry

[Katrala]

NO,... Im saying its wrong no matter what you do. If you killed someone for a reson or not its still wrong.. Like w.o.w its still wrong to sell even if the money is for school..

You're trying to compare apples and oranges.

First off, one is actually illegal. The other not. The moral value placed on taking a life can't be compared with violating the terms of service of a video game. If someone violates the rules of this forum repeatedly, they will be banned (I'm assuming) and although coming on the forum and flaming, spamming, etc. is seen as bad manners and disrespectful, it's not illegal and the wrongness is a gray area. Same with Blizz (except on their forums..).

I'm sure that Blizz's main purpose in asking that accounts not be bought or sold was to cover their own rear ends! If they say it's not allowed, then no one who is scammed can come back and hold them accountable whatsoever. I feel that their main emphasis is that they don't want anyone using any aspect of the game to earn money in RL.

If I'm not home and my husband needs an item from me, he'll log into my account and send it or trade it to his character. Is this against ToS? The way it sounds, having anyone access your account or know the account information other than you is considered to be against the rules.

[dgrampa]

...If I'm not home and my husband needs an item from me, he'll log into my account and send it or trade it to his character. Is this against ToS? The way it sounds, having anyone access your account or know the account information other than you is considered to be against the rules.

Burn the witch! Burn the witch! :laugh:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If I'm not home and my husband needs an item from me, he'll log into my account and send it or trade it to his character. Is this against ToS? The way it sounds, having anyone access your account or know the account information other than you is considered to be against the rules.

That depends, because legally, a married couple is typically perceived as a "single entity" for most things, if memory serves, so I'd guess there is a bit of leniency in that (there was a huge debate/discussion on the caveats/exceptions to the rule of nobody other than the account holder is supposed to use the account).

[Valas Azuviir]

If someone violates the rules of this forum repeatedly, they will be banned (I'm assuming) and although coming on the forum and flaming, spamming, etc. is seen as bad manners and disrespectful, it's not illegal and the wrongness is a gray area. Same with Blizz (except on their forums..).


We do permaban regular posters, if need be. We might prefer not to, and we'd rather re-educate folks as to the proper form of conduct here.

However, sometimes it can't be helped. Sometimes, it's a matter of cost vs benefit and if the cost is too great, then out the door you go.

And as for their actions here being unlawful, that would depend upon the exact message they left. But that's something the Admins are better informed about than me.

[piscene]

I'm sure that Blizz's main purpose in asking that accounts not be bought or sold was to cover their own rear ends! If they say it's not allowed, then no one who is scammed can come back and hold them accountable whatsoever. I feel that their main emphasis is that they don't want anyone using any aspect of the game to earn money in RL.




Exactly. If Blizzard allowed account transfers, then you could legally sell your account to a poweleveler (for $1), and then legally buy it back at level 70 (for $1000), so of course account transfers are not allowed. The abuse would be horrible.

However, if the buyer of the account realizes the risk in knowingly breaking the rules by accepting someone else's account, then they accept that risk, including the risk that the account could be banned.

[Pharoahe]

Interesting to see what peoples reactions are, especially Oosell's post about his Eve character.

For many people, the toon IS the person and the idea of selling it is no more entertaining than selling a limb for profit. It's a reflection of your personality and all the time and effort you've put in to making it what it is. It's not a damn consumer good to be traded for filthy lucre.

And not even that much - £250 ($500) for something that took you months and months to create? Something that occupied your waking life for all those hours and you're flogging it off for half what you'll make in a week once you're a qualified teacher? Get some backbone, man - you're not fit to teach children if this is how you value your own labour.

There's a reason why people who bought their account are regarded with contempt and derision by the players who built theirs up from lvl 1.

:rolleyes: talk about over reaction. yeah he has no backbone because hes selling a game character :rolleyes:

I love my character & would never sell her. But i know in a year or 2 i will quit WoW and probably never play again. Ill look back on it as a fun time but will i lack backbone because i quit a game? :rolleyes: If you no longer play the game it doesnt really matter...lol @ saying someone isnt fit to teach children, hes not a murderer. calm down.

Re-read and you'll see that it's nothing to do with it being a game character - it's the value you've placed on your time, which for a toon with T5 gear will be immense. Come on, £250? Think what message you're sending to people when you exchange your blood, sweat and tears for a really small amount of cash.

If your class knew all about this, they would lose all respect for you and I wouldn't blame them. Don't believe me? Tell them.

Think how many holidays you could afford if you had spent all that time working. A damn sight more than £250's worth, I can tell you. Look at your financial stements and you might be surprised to see you've already pi$$ed lots more than £250 away on drink already this year. The money will quickly be gone and you'll hate yourself for all the time you ever spent online for such a petty reward.

not everyone sees this game as the biggest thing in the world. for me its a fun time (/played 30 days on my main since May). Blood, sweat and tears? this isnt the iraq war.

say you spent £1000s on collecting comics & it was your passion & you loved it. but 5 years down the line, you have a family & a new life & the passion is no longer there. Would you sell your collection for a few thousand to do something with the money that could help your family or keep the comics rotting away with no desire to read them? if i decided to sell my comics is not lacking backbone, its moving on. People move on...im not gonna keep something for the sake of nostalgia alone if it can be better served by selling, even if i put my blood, sweat and tears into it.

I wouldnt sell my account because i feel strongly about my character, however the analogy applys. to say hes not fit to teach children is laughable.

[unbdm]

That depends, because legally, a married couple is typically perceived as a "single entity" for most things, if memory serves, so I'd guess there is a bit of leniency in that (there was a huge debate/discussion on the caveats/exceptions to the rule of nobody other than the account holder is supposed to use the account).

I'm not sure that legal precident for maried couples applies to blizz TOS/EULA.
In my opinion the application described is clearly in violation of Blizz rules. The allowance they make (as you know well, I've heard you quote it many times) is for children. However I agree, not only would that be hard to ban for (i.e. would take a confesion practicaly), I doubt they would even want to go after that type of situation.
I'm actually shocked how many people access each others accounts though... and they actually even talk about it in the in game chat channels...

When my kids have friends over, I let them creat a toon on my account so they can play together. They never get past level 7 or so... I'm willing to take that risk, and bottom line, I'm paying for three accounts, if Blizz wants to target me, go ahead. If anything, they are getting free advertizing from us pumping my kids friends up on the game; probably half of them end up buying the game... But I understand why the rules are there, and I'm cool with it... I would be ticked if they banned me for it, but then again, it's just a silly game in the end... a silly game I get caught up in, but it is what it is...

Best Regards,
Barry

[Valas Azuviir]

say you spent £1000s on collecting comics & it was your passion & you loved it. but 5 years down the line, you have a family & a new life & the passion is no longer there. Would you sell your collection for a few thousand to do something with the money that could help your family or keep the comics rotting away with no desire to read them? if i decided to sell my comics is not lacking backbone, its moving on. People move on...im not gonna keep something for the sake of nostalgia alone if it can be better served by selling, even if i put my blood, sweat and tears into it.


Those comics are your property, you have the right to sell them.
The account and the characters contained within are not your property and you therefore lack the right to sell them.

So your own analogy is flawed in that sense.

And besides, it's not uncommon to use own's own comic book collection to "infect" the kids with the same passion. They'll learn more from the X-Men and Spiderman series than they could ever do from say American Idol or something like that.

[bwirum]

Those comics are your property, you have the right to sell them.
The account and the characters contained within are not your property and you therefore lack the right to sell them.

So your own analogy is flawed in that sense.

And besides, it's not uncommon to use own's own comic book collection to "infect" the kids with the same passion. They'll learn more from the X-Men and Spiderman series than they could ever do from say American Idol or something like that.

Not flawed at all, since whether or not it's against the eula is not the emphasis of the previous post. The point being that not getting back what you've actually put in makes you a meager and shallow person not fit to teach kids. What a crock of !#¤.

Get a grip Zach, we're talking about game time. Even if I personally wouldn't sell my account (well, not for £250 anyhow, but I sure have a price too) I sure as hell don't look down on the guy that does just this. I'd be more inclined to leave it in my guilds hands actually, since that would leave me the option of coming back.

It's not murder we're talking about.

[swaldman]

- If I were planning to quit the game permenantly, I might well want to ensure that I couldn't go back to it (if I was afraid of its addictive nature). Some people in this situation delete their characters, but selling the account is another way of addressing this.

- I would never sell to somebody who wasn't fully aware of the risks

- I would be reluctant to sell in any case as, although I'd try to tell most people ingame who knew me, there would undoubtedly be some people who thought it was still me (I realise that this arguably doesn't matter because I won't be there, but it feels wrong)

- However, offered enough money, I would sell. I doubt that anybody would ever offer me enough for my toon, but hey :-)

[inkmva]

I have to agree, some people really needs to rethink their moral standpoint when comparing murder to selling an account.

I hear talks of high horses and what not ;)

[Zachariah]

I apologise for not making myself clear. I'm not against the selling of the character per se, but the value he has assigned to it. I too have a price, but of course it's a ridiculously large price which nobody in their right mind would pay, because I place a high value on my time and effort and it pains me to see someone value theirs so low.

All I'm saying in the end is: Maladroit2000, don't sell yourself so cheaply.

[bwirum]

Fact of the matter is that you won't see people paying out of their teeth for an account unless you're a T6 + full MGlad geared awesome superman. From what I've seen and / or heard £250 sounds like a perfectly good price. The value of my car isn't $60k just because I'd like to have that much for it when I sell it. It's less than half that because that's what the market is willing to pay for it. Eula or no eula, it's a business transaction like any other.

[Valas Azuviir]

Eula or no eula, it's a business transaction like any other.

So are selling stolen property or sub-letting an apartment without the approval of the landlord. :tongue:

[swaldman]

So are selling stolen property or sub-letting an apartment without the approval of the landlord. :tongue:

The former is a criminal offense, and as such doesn't compare.

The latter is in breach of contract, and I guess breaking the EULA is too (? not sure of the legal status there).
But the penalties for the former are going to be getting evicted, and possibly sued for damages, vs the penalty for the latter being getting banned.

Perspective is a wonderful thing :-)

[Valas Azuviir]

The former is a criminal offense, and as such doesn't compare.

The latter is in breach of contract, and I guess breaking the EULA is too (? not sure of the legal status there).
But the penalties for the former are going to be getting evicted, and possibly sued for damages, vs the penalty for the latter being getting banned.

Perspective is a wonderful thing :-)

Well considering some folks felt that the principle behind the selling the comics equalled selling the accounts, I thought I could have some fun with that thought too. :grin:

But seriously, for some reason folks think that because they played and paid for the account, they have the right to do whatever they want with it.

Ignoring the fact that the whole construction is no different from renting an apartment or leasing a car. You are allowed to do what you want, within the contract you agreed upon. So no painting the car a neon-pink colour, because you think it cool, whereas it was originally an olive green.

Not your car, you don't have the right to paint it without the approval of the leasing company.

No, you can't put in a hottub into your appartment without the permission of your landlord. Doesn't matter if it enhances the value of the property, you need his/her permission first, or indeed you'll end up paying damages.

Now technically, Blizzard can bring a breach of contract suit against someone for the breach of the EULA. Thing is, sometimes judges have ruled in favour of them, sometimes against them. In short, no sure fire guarantee that you don't end up with the wrong judge, whereas there's so much jurisprudence with regular contracts, that even if he made a bad decision, you can easily have it overturned on appeal.

Then there's the cost factor of bringing suit against those who breach the EULA, rather unlike the single plaintive in the case of the car or apartment mentioned above.

Still doesn't change the fact that both are contracts and that neither party can unilaterally change them and expect them to apply to the other party without their consent. That's the main reason why every time we get patched, you end up having to read through the ToS and related material again, to once more confirm that you agree with Blizzard's stipulations and still want to play under them. If, you do not agree, then you simply have to click the reject button and not play any more.

No different from your landlord deciding that XYZ has to be done, and it being significant enough changes, that the lease will have to be redone.

[Ash Housewares]

NO,... Im saying its wrong no matter what you do. If you killed someone for a reson or not its still wrong..

but what if I was just trying to save them from 10% durability loss??

[Kodonn]

The former is a criminal offense, and as such doesn't compare.

The latter is in breach of contract, and I guess breaking the EULA is too (? not sure of the legal status there).
But the penalties for the former are going to be getting evicted, and possibly sued for damages, vs the penalty for the latter being getting banned.

Perspective is a wonderful thing :-)

So are half-truths. :wink:
If you want to be technical, the current penalty that is enforced by Blizzard, for breaking the EULA by selling your account is banning.
That doesn't necessarily mean that it's NOT also illegal, only that no one has been prosecuted for it yet.

Last time I checked, selling something that doesn't belong to you is a criminal offense in the US. Trying to hedge around the obvious by claiming that someone is only "selling their time that they put in", really doesn't hold any water in a court. (Sort of like claiming you put in a lot of time and work to steal a car, therefore you "earned" it.)

The car lease is a good analogy. You pay for the use of the car, that's it. You don't own it. You can't take it into a shop and "pimp it out" with a lot of parts and paint (even if you pay for those) and then sell it.

We lease time on Blizzard's servers to create a character to play with and gear it up in any way we choose within the limits described by Blizzard. But in the end, it's all still Blizzard's property, so trying to sell it or even giving it away, is still equivalent to stealing. It's not yours to give.

If you want to continue paying your subscription fees and let a friend play on your account, then at least you are only breaking the EULA, and not doing anything technically illegal.

[Pharoahe]

Those comics are your property, you have the right to sell them.
The account and the characters contained within are not your property and you therefore lack the right to sell them.

So your own analogy is flawed in that sense.

And besides, it's not uncommon to use own's own comic book collection to "infect" the kids with the same passion. They'll learn more from the X-Men and Spiderman series than they could ever do from say American Idol or something like that.

your missed my point entirely, well done.
I was not debating the legal standpiont at all and stated i would never sell my account.

My point was replying to the fact that the OP was called not fit to teach children just because hes selling a hobby in which he put alot of effort. the legal side was not brought up in this side of the debate. many people have a passion for things at one point in their life, but then move on & often sell thier previously prized possessions. it does not make them a serial killer

[Polaba]

Just pointing out a little something...

The account and the characters contained within are not your property and you therefore lack the right to sell them.

Technically they are. Despite the fact that people pay a monthly fee to play World of Warcraft, they originally paid $20 for the game, thereby the account key, thereby the account. It was his 20 bucks, so it's his account. And he does have the right to sell it for more than he paid for it, because he simply improved the account's quality by leveling up characters. Essentially, he would be getting 500 bucks for the 20 digit code that he originally paid 20 dollars for (the account name/password).

Let it be known that I don't under any circumstances support what this guy is considering, $500 isn't even close to the amount of work I've put into any one of my accounts, and the amount of money that I consider compensating for my accounts is completely unrealistic, I'm simply pointing out that technically it is his account, and therefore he can sell it if he wants (even though its a stupid decision).

I might get flamed for this view, but

Perspective is a wonderful thing :)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Technically they are. Despite the fact that people pay a monthly fee to play World of Warcraft, they originally paid $20 for the game, thereby the account key, thereby the account. It was his 20 bucks, so it's his account. And he does have the right to sell it for more than he paid for it, because he simply improved the account's quality by leveling up characters.

Let it be known that I don't under any circumstances support what this guy is considering, $500 isn't even close to the amount of work I've put into any one of my accounts, and the amount of money that I consider compensating for my accounts is completely unrealistic, I'm simply pointing out that technically it is his account, and therefore he can sell it if he wants (even though its a stupid decision).

Technically, the account isn't the property of the player. The account resides on Blizzar's servers, and is effectively "leased" by permission from Blizzard. The software itself (the physical disks) are the property of the player in question, but without access to an account the disks are effectively as useful as a set of coasters. The account is leased, and paid for on a monthly basis, the game disks, box, and other hardware that came with it, but the account is technically Blizzard's.

[Polaba]

I wasn't referring to the physical disks, I was referring the the account keys that come with them, which allow you to even play the game.

[dgrampa]

I wasn't referring to the physical disks, I was referring the the account keys that come with them, which allow you to even play the game.

That key only allows you to set up and activate an account. Once the account is set up you don't need the key any more. If you sell or give away your account, you don't need to turn over the key, it is worthless.

[Polaba]

But the key allowed you to originally make an account - even have access to the game.

[Valas Azuviir]

your missed my point entirely, well done.
I was not debating the legal standpiont at all and stated i would never sell my account.

My point was replying to the fact that the OP was called not fit to teach children just because hes selling a hobby in which he put alot of effort. the legal side was not brought up in this side of the debate. many people have a passion for things at one point in their life, but then move on & often sell thier previously prized possessions. it does not make them a serial killer

I understand the pov you were trying to bring across.
I pointed out however, that the analogy you used was flawed, because there's another aspect involved (namely the legal side) which you didn't address.

If, you were to say something like: I'm allegic to cats, and that's why I don't like them and it's also the reason why I don't like dogs.

You don't like cats, because you are allergic to them. Fine.
You made no mention of being allergic to dogs, so the allergy to cats has no bearing upon dogs and cannot be used as a motivation to dislike dogs.

While both cats and dogs are mammals, and while both are pets. They're also different and cannot fully be compared on a 1 to 1 basis.

Oh and Poloba, you might want to brush up on both EULA and ToS.

Sections 3A and B of the EULA (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/eula.html) in addition to section 1, paragraphs A, B, E, section 9 and section 15 of the ToS (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html). Note that these are the EU version, language and locations of the relevant sections will be slightly different in the US counterparts.

Remember that bit I mentioned before about it being a contract?
Well, consider that 20 bucks a good behaviour bond or something similar. Can't quite think of the proper term and have run out of time right now to ponder it properly.

[bwirum]

Your out-pointing (yes, I constructed that word) is flawed Valaz. Try to keep the different aspects of what people are talking about here from eachother.

"I think your position on guncontrol is flawed, since you didn't take the rainforest into consideration." - Sounds kinda silly, no?

And the 20 bucks is simply payment for the media.

[Pharoahe]

I understand the pov you were trying to bring across.
I pointed out however, that the analogy you used was flawed, because there's another aspect involved (namely the legal side) which you didn't address.

If, you were to say something like: I'm allegic to cats, and that's why I don't like them and it's also the reason why I don't like dogs.

You don't like cats, because you are allergic to them. Fine.
You made no mention of being allergic to dogs, so the allergy to cats has no bearing upon dogs and cannot be used as a motivation to dislike dogs.

While both cats and dogs are mammals, and while both are pets. They're also different and cannot fully be compared on a 1 to 1 basis.

Oh and Poloba, you might want to brush up on both EULA and ToS.

Sections 3A and B of the EULA (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/eula.html) in addition to section 1, paragraphs A, B, E, section 9 and section 15 of the ToS (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html). Note that these are the EU version, language and locations of the relevant sections will be slightly different in the US counterparts.

Remember that bit I mentioned before about it being a contract?
Well, consider that 20 bucks a good behaviour bond or something similar. Can't quite think of the proper term and have run out of time right now to ponder it properly.

I was merely stating the fact that it is utterly stupid to suggest that someone is not fit to teach children because of this. I dont see how your or my analogy changes this fact.

[Zachariah]

Actually you were merely stating your opinion, as did I. Please don't try and claim it's a 'fact'.

[unbdm]

lol… and presidents that have inappropriate relations with interns shouldn’t be kicked out of office…

or, perhaps cheating in a video game should go on your permanent record...

[Pharoahe]

Actually you were merely stating your opinion, as did I. Please don't try and claim it's a 'fact'.

yeah and in my opinion you have to be crack to be labeling him not fit to teach children.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I wasn't referring to the physical disks, I was referring the the account keys that come with them, which allow you to even play the game.

You purchased the key, yes. The key provided access to the account, which is a monthly subscription, effectively leased. You *could* sell the key to someone else afterwards, but it does them no good (and the key itself is part of the "physical components" of the game which was purchased). The key is used once. It is effectively like getting a ticket to a sporting event. After you have used the ticket, does it make sense to sell the ticket (when there is no more value associated with it)? Selling the account key after you have made an account is the same kind of thing.

[Kasal]

I find it amusing that people will so vigorously argue exclusive ownership of their characters, when in order to play the game you have to accept an agreement which states you have no such ownership.

I think the frustration for many is a result of having to accept that agreement if we want to participate in the game. Which, after countless hours of time and maybe a few hundred dollars in subsciption fees, doesn't even allow us the option to bequeath the account to another rather than let it die - unless of course we are prepared to break the "law".

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I think the frustration for many is a result of having to accept that agreement if we want to participate in the game. Which, after countless hours of time and maybe a few hundred dollars in subsciption fees, doesn't even allow us the option to bequeath the account to another rather than let it die - unless of course we are prepared to break the "law".

If by "law" you mean "License Agreement", which is what is accepted in order to play. However, if the individual in question has no intention of playing again, that person is technically no longer bound by the constraints of said agreement. The buyer, on the other hand, is bound under the terms of the agreement, and it really is a case of "buyer beware" -- because if Blizzard discovers that the account is not being played by the original person who was on that account, Blizzard is more than willing (able, and is typically highly motivated) to ban that account permanently.

The seller however, is basically doing nothing that has the potential of getting any legal repercussions, because, once again, the seller is no longer held under the EULA/ToU. Of course, the seller might fall under something from the DCMA, depending on the circumstances, and get nailed that way. But the DCMA is also very poorly worded, and easily interpreted multiple ways. It also is typically interpreted in favor of the developer/producer, in this case, Blizzard. But, it tends to get very expensive to fight in the court/legal systems.

I'm reminded of a line from Fight Club:

"A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."

Only, instead, it most likely is this:

"Take the number of World of Warcraft accounts, A, multiply by the probability of those accounts being sold/traded from one person to another, B, multiply by the average costs of court/litigation actions, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is more than the cost of turning off the accounts and loss of revenue from the monthly subscriptions, Blizzard doesn't prosecute."

[cyradis2003]

lol… and presidents that have inappropriate relations with interns shouldn’t be kicked out of office…


cough cough ... senators texting dirty messages to little boys ... cough cough

Bill Clinton's lucky day when that story broke, swept a lot of moral high ground away with it, at least his page/intern was of legal age.

[Valas Azuviir]

Your out-pointing (yes, I constructed that word) is flawed Valaz. Try to keep the different aspects of what people are talking about here from eachother.

"I think your position on guncontrol is flawed, since you didn't take the rainforest into consideration." - Sounds kinda silly, no?

And the 20 bucks is simply payment for the media.

I was merely stating the fact that it is utterly stupid to suggest that someone is not fit to teach children because of this. I dont see how your or my analogy changes this fact.

Bwirum, gun control and the rain forest do not have a direct connection.
Cats and dogs by way of them being both mammals and pets do have a common denominator. Collecting comics for a hobby and playing WoW for a hobby, again a common denominator.

But collecting comics and playing WoW are as different from one and other as cats and dogs are. With the comics, you are actually dealing with personal property. With WoW you are not. So whereas, it is allowed for you to sell the comics (they are your property afterall), it is not allowed to sell the WoW account.

Now whether or not Maladroit is unfit to teach kids. That I don't know, don't know him/her personally and his/her posting habits, haven't left either a very negative or overtly positive impression. S/he just is, for lack of a better term.

This doesn't change the matter that s/he'd be giving off a bad example to his/her students with these types of actions. Hey, if the teacher need not abide by the rules, why should the students? :wink:

Hence, why I can somewhat understand the position that some deem him/her unfit to teach kids, may not agree with it, precisely because of the aforementioned lack of knowledge that I have with regards to the further behaviour of maladroit, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the reasoning.

Just as I can understand your reasoning that what you do in a hobby need not reflect on a person's work-life..

Just as I can understand the reasoning of giving the account to the guild, because they've become dependant upon certain of the characters. While this is still a violation of the ToS and therefore subject to the same penalties as with the actual sale of the account, there at least is an aspect of making a sacrifice for the greater good as opposed to pure self-enrichment.

Sometimes humans do bad things for the right reasons. Doesn't change the fact that their actions were bad and that they should therefore be punished, but that the reasoning behind the actions throws a different light on the case. As opposed to something as simple as greed, which seldomly paints a pretty picture.

This is my view on this whole discussion. You lot are allowed to disagree with it. Just as I disagree with some of the statements you have made. However, you will voice said disagreement nicely, even to one and other, when you disagree on certain aspects of your differing views. I point to Commandment 1.

On a side note, Kasal.
That's why Xlorep also mentioned the grey area with regards to spouses.
It's fairly common in a number of the European nations, that if one spouse were to die that all money still outstanding to the deceased (like say a lottery win), all debts and most contractual agreements will be taken over by the surviving spouse.

So if Jack and Jill were married, had a little son known as Bob and Jack had made an account for Bob, under Jack's name (which as one of the legal guardians he was entitled to do, see the ToS mentioned before), then the argument could be made that after Jack had died, that Jill would become the new contractually obligated person instead of Jack. Because she'd still be a legal guardian of Bob and Bob is allowed to play on the account, considering he's a minor.

The ToS does state that certain parts may not be valid, if they are in direct contradiction with the laws as they exist in the nation of residency of the "customer". Not a direct quote by any means, but a close enough paraphrase. Section 19 for those interested (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html) And possibly section 15 of the EULA.

It's also why I said most contracts, because some have dissolution clauses in case of death, or simply because Jill is unable to comply with the contract, like say Jack having a contract with the local sperm bank to produce X amount for them each month. :tongue: )

It would be interesting to see what the type of ruling would be with a case like this, purely from a social-historical / legal pov.

Additional side note to Xlorep.
They do provide a way for the customers to dissolve the contract in the ToS. Section 16 (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html) As well as in the EULA, section 6.

[dgrampa]

...because if Blizzard discovers that the account is not being played by the original person who was on that account, Blizzard is more than willing (able, and is typically highly motivated) to ban that account permanently...[/I]

Yes I'm sure Blizzard is highly motivated to stop people from paying them $15 a month simply because they are breaking a general 'butt-covering' clause.

Not that you'll ever read this...:wink:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Additional side note to Xlorep.
They do provide a way for the customers to dissolve the contract in the ToS. Section 16 (http://www.wow-europe.com/en/legal/termsofuse.html) As well as in the EULA, section 6.

True enough, doesn't affect my statements :)

[bwirum]

Bwirum, gun control and the rain forest do not have a direct connection.
Cats and dogs by way of them being both mammals and pets do have a common denominator. Collecting comics for a hobby and playing WoW for a hobby, again a common denominator.


Rain forests and gun control are both demonstrated for/against. You can find a common denominator for anything and you trying to still reel in that silly argument when you so blatantly argued on flawed terms is just ... well, silly. I suggest you read back on what you actually answered to and what you wrote.

[maladroit2000]

Now whether or not Maladroit is unfit to teach kids. That I don't know, don't know him/her personally and his/her posting habits, haven't left either a very negative or overtly positive impression. S/he just is, for lack of a better term.

This doesn't change the matter that s/he'd be giving off a bad example to his/her students with these types of actions. Hey, if the teacher need not abide by the rules, why should the students? :wink:

Hence, why I can somewhat understand the position that some deem him/her unfit to teach kids, may not agree with it, precisely because of the aforementioned lack of knowledge that I have with regards to the further behaviour of maladroit, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the reasoning.


I've finished playing a computer game and someone offers me cash to let them carry on where I left off. In my opinion "selling" an account is no worse than selling a second hand computer game, book or dvd. In those cases, while the physical item itself belongs to you, they are usually worth only a few pennies in themselves. What people are actually paying for is the work and creativity that has gone into producing the product - what right have you got to sell this and keep the proceeds? Likewise, I believe it is actually illegal to record programs from the television - I think it falls under intellectual property laws (that certainly used to be the case in the UK). However, in all these cases people do not bat an eyelid, even though the original artist/creator has not been paid for his work. When selling an account, the creator of the game, Blizzard, may actually get paid more in the form of a subscription fee when an account is sold on instead of abandoned.

How many teachers are there alive who have not recorded a TV show, or purchased a second hand book? And I am certainly not going to impose my own version of morality on my pupils (or any other children for that matter, including my own). Reasoned debate and an impartial education will allow them to make up their own mind.

[bwirum]

Very well said Mala, and yes, it is actually illegal in Norway too to record anything from broadcast TV. Regardless of this even the distribution companies themselves sell tuners with digital hd recorders in them...

[dgrampa]

What the heck is wrong with recording a tv show? Assuming you aren't redistributing it, but only recording to watch at a later time, where are the damages?

I would think the 'artist' or whoever would be happy that the consumer gets to watch his/her show that they would have otherwise missed. The only poeple hurt by this scenario I suppose would be advertisers, since you can just skip the commercials. But I don't think that renders recording tv shows immoral. :ponder:

[unbdm]

any thread that quotes Fight Club delivers....

[unbdm]

What the heck is wrong with recording a tv show? Assuming you aren't redistributing it, but only recording to watch at a later time, where are the damages?

I would think the 'artist' or whoever would be happy that the consumer gets to watch his/her show that they would have otherwise missed. The only poeple hurt by this scenario I suppose would be advertisers, since you can just skip the commercials. But I don't think that renders recording tv shows immoral. :ponder:

well, that's up for debate.... I'm pretty sure the feature to automaticaly skip comercials was banned (through law suite) from television recording devices.
(thinking back to replaytv product around 5 years ago.... but I'm really not up to date on this stuff... I was back then because I was buying equipment).

[selone_orc]

Not for a small amount of money, no.

[maladroit2000]

Not sure if anyone remembers this thread but in the end I decided not to sell my account but to give it to my little brother. He pays the subscription and is levelling his own warlock and plays my lvl 70 druid in pvp and I still use the account to mess around on the auction house to make gold, something I enjoy more than actually playing the game properly. Seemed like a nice solution to me.

[spadron]

It's exactly the same from a moral/legal standpoint, but you're down £250 quid :)

I would've sold it.

[Clavina]

Some people are taking this way too seriously. Op should sell the account and then ninja it back with the account recovery service and then sell it again.

[Mincemaker]

I won't sell my account to anyone, not even my guildmates. Why? Because my character is I, and I am my character. And the fact that I play in a RP-PVP server only serves to enforce that fact, seeing that I put quite alot of myself into my character. I find selling my character to anyone to be akin to selling my identity. What's gonna happen if some day, someone else sees my character and wonders why he is behaving the inverse of how I usually roleplay him? Or worse, he starts doing things I wouldn't do and gave my character, and by extension, myself a bad rep?

If I am not planning to return, I'm going to do my guildmates some charity and just shard all my items and give them away instead. Then delete my account.

But in reality, there is always a chance that I will come back anyway, so my account, and all my characters, with all their equipment, will be left as it is.