What kind of DPS should new 70s be capable of?

[Beruen]

I'm trying to get a feel for what kind of DPS I should be able to expect from guildies, to get an idea of just how bad off we are as a guild so we can have a reasonable idea of whether or not we're in a position to handle Kara. I'm of the opinion that we're not ready.

I know there are threads that talk about reasonable stats when you start Kara, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hunters knowing their shot rotations, players having effective talent trees, mages keeping spell casting going (not even /stopcasting, I'm just talking always having a casting bar going), warlocks knowing when to DoT and when to shadowbolt, etc.

There's all of three good DPSers that play often in my guild, by my standard. I don't even rate my hunter as one of those, even though there's only one other hunter in the guild that matches/beats his DPS (more of a "should be doing better" issue, the actual DPS numbers aren't bad if I include the pet). There's some DPSers in the middle ground, and then there's some that are barely above the tank, if that. One of the big obstacles to getting the whole guild Kara keyed is Grandmaster Vorpil, as depending on group composition, a lot of the time we just don't have the DPS to take him down before the adds become overwhelming.

A week or two ago, one of the shaman in the guild said she was considering going resto, and I whispered "Please don't. We have good healers, but you're one of the best DPSers in the guild." Turns out she was rather surprised to find this out, but it's true. The best Grandmaster Vorpil takedown our guild ever had was when that shaman and my warlock (one of the other toons I consider as having solid DPS) were in the group, took him down fast enough that when it was all over, we were all going "That's it? Isn't this usually a lot harder?"

On the flip side, we had an ex-guildie (one of the people that went on to raid in a different guild) fill in a DPS slot for a steamvaults run this weekend. My warlock did twice the total damage of anyone else, but when that ex-guildie wasn't mind-controlling mobs, she was doing significantly more DPS, to the tune of 200-300 DPS more.

Anyway, enough whining. My real question is, for characters that are reasonably geared (no heroic/raiding gear, minimal rep gear) and reasonably played, what kind of DPS should most of them be able to put out over the course of an instance run? My gut tells me that in quested gear, most classes shouldn't have a problem breaking 500 DPS, and 600 DPS should be possible if they're on the ball, but I'm not sure if that's realistic. I'm a bit more of an obsessive compulsive type with some theorycraft to apply, so I can't realistically expect a bunch of casual players to meet my standards, even if I think my standards are lax. We really are a casual guild, anyone that really wants to raid winds up joining another guild. On the other hand, we've had people drop out of raid guilds and join us, just because we're nice people and have fun (we've picked up a few excellent tanks and healers that way).

Our problem cases are doing less than 400 DPS, and most of our DPSers are in the 400-500 range. Blankety-blank stuck-up rogues should not be barely beating a feral tank in the DPS meters.

One thing I'd like is to get some numbers for the ranged DPS to shoot for on Dr. Boom. Basically give them instructions to load Violation, go blast Dr. Boom for a few minutes, and if you don't get at least X DPS, you need to figure out what's wrong with your gear, your attack rotation, or both. Kind of a "you must be this high to ride this ride." sign. Does that sound like a good starting point? Sure, it leaves out hit, utility, and melee, but at least it's something that some of the people can do to get an idea of where they stand.

[xDarkDrifterx]

I'm not a raider (at the moment - though I've done some of Kara) but I would think your guild name would be useful so that the raiders among us might take a gander at your peoples actual gear and class distribution from the armory.

[ChaosSaber]

My guild recently got back to progressing on Kara after several months of drama and chaos. We've basically been starting from scratch.
For everything up to the Curator (who is a DPS check) your big damage dealers should be able to output minimum 500-700 DPS at full burn after buffs. Hybrid classes may be on the low end of that depending on gear, which is perfectly acceptable. To reliably kill the Curator the window jumps to 600-800 DPS for the top artillery. This range is also acceptable for Shade of Aran if you do the "sheep halfway" tactic. You will need significantly more to pull off a sheepless or post-elemental-sheeping kill.

These are just my observations as a Warlock who usually tops the damage meters in Kara. This is just a general guide. If you have a few dpsers who are too low you can start anyways; just give them priority on DPS drops to level the raid out. The first bosses all drop good DPS gear in some form.

If you're really low I recommend hiring some tailors for the sets (some are BoE) and running instances to get people gear. You don't need to do Heroics, but it certainly helps.

[Duke Brand]

i would say pre curator around 450 avg raid dps would get all the bosses down. Curator and beyond it's going to bump up to 600 avg raid dps on prince. Nice thing is you dont' have any enrage timers to worry about so if your dps is light you still can kill bosses as long as your healers can keep on healing.

[Twoflower]

500 - 600 DPS for DPS classes.

and i would be realy hard on your folks. If the DD's can not produce at least twice as much damage as the warrior tank during a bossfight, i wouldnt take them with me a second time.

and dont give the slackers priority on DPS drops. I wouldnt give them any loot... You can pull off 500 - 600 DPS in quest rewards and 5 man instance blues. If they have the equip, but lack the knowledge of the class, then shiny epics wont help them either. Get them to read forums, collect informations etc. Give the epics to the people who have a clue about playing their class. They will benefit more.

I know, i would be a terribly unfair guild leader :P

[clevins]

Are we talking boss DPS? DPS across the instance including trash? What? You need to define your terms a bit. Log the combat from a run and parse it with WWS, then link the parse.

On bosses all of the above figures are fine. You're not going to get that on trash from some DPS classes simply because they don't get into good rotations. For example in full epics I can put out ~800 or so on Aran if I really try... but my damage across the run might be 500ish since the trash dies too fast for my rotations to kick in (I'm a rogue).

If peoples' stats are fine, but they are underperforming, the issue could be spec or skill. If they have a good spec and are skilled, but their gear sucks, they'll be low. Gear is easy to fix. My first Kara I was in greens and blues and was undergeared for Kara... and it showed. I spent 2 weeks running instances and doing quests... and was fine in all blues.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I know, i would be a terribly unfair guild leader :P

Depends, is your guild's name <Do Whatever twoflowers Says>?

[Tollin]

Well I am interested in this as well, cause here I am level 66 warlock running the regular stuff and my SW Stats meter has me around 300-320 effective dps. I would hope that in 4 more levels, a talent respec from demonology to afflicition I can double that number?

So is that a good number for my level? Should I be higher? I mean this is for all you raider types out there. As I am getting slight pressure from my guild to get to 70 as we are very low on warlocks, the class leader is going to have to stop playing for awhile, so I get a regular raid spot as the other warlock ahead of me is moving to A team and I get on B team.

Here is my armory link. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gilneas&n=Tollin

[Polaba]

Well I am interested in this as well, cause here I am level 66 warlock running the regular stuff and my SW Stats meter has me around 300-320 effective dps. I would hope that in 4 more levels, a talent respec from demonology to afflicition I can double that number?
So is that a good number for my level? Should I be higher? I mean this is for all you raider types out there. As I am getting slight pressure from my guild to get to 70 as we are very low on warlocks, the class leader is going to have to stop playing for awhile, so I get a regular raid spot as the other warlock ahead of me is moving to A team and I get on B team.

I believe that's a very good number for a green/instance geared demo lock at 66, some 70 heroics/instances and a respec to Aff should put you well over 400.

To the OP, it is VERY dependant on gear/spec, its unrealistic to generalize a "70"'s dps without considering class, spec and gear, and even...("know-what-you're-doing-ness"?)

I actually experimented with my mage while naked (in game, as in no gear :wink:) on some 70-72 fire elementals and scored around 410-450 dps, so full dps classes or full dps specs of classes should have significantly more (2-3 times) than the tank or offtank.

[clevins]

Well I am interested in this as well, cause here I am level 66 warlock running the regular stuff and my SW Stats meter has me around 300-320 effective dps.

This is what I meant by defining things above. A few things:

1) Effective DPS will be lower than the regular DPS that SWS shows. It's a meh method of measuing DPS since it is influenced by whether you die in a fight, need to run around, etc.
2) DPS on trash is less important than on bosses. it's not unimportant as the trash should die quickly, but DoTs etc will usually not have their full effect.
3) What you're looking for is... what's my DPS on bosses (and high hp trash perhaps) if I push threat close to the tank and am in the fight for the whole thing?

If you're a tailor, start skilling and saving mats for good tailored gear (Spellstrike etc) and make sure you enchant/gem things. Not greens as you should replace those fast, but good blues and epics. Yes, blues. Yes, even if you're just going to have it a few weeks.

[rottentomato]

lvl 65 hunter i put out around 330-350 effective on boss fights...hoping i can get it up more when i start gearing out of my trash and into decent gear.

[swaldman]

Nice thing is you dont' have any enrage timers to worry about so if your dps is light you still can kill bosses as long as your healers can keep on healing.

Mostly true, but not for:

- Curator
- Prince
- Netherspite
- In a limited way, Illhoof. (this is more about dps being awake than having high dps, but the two tend to go together :-))

On any of these, lack of dps will kill you.

[Beruen]

Well, really, I'd like something simple just to get an idea of the scale of the issue, rather than something really precise. That's why I was wondering what kind of numbers they should be able to get on Dr. Boom. That's something people can go and play with for 15 minutes, respec or swap gear, and try again for a few minutes, to get direct comparisons. I know that's not going to be an accurate, but it's more likely to get done than if we standardize on a certain instance run with a given amount of crowd control, etc.

The warlock I described in the initial post is affliction, so I'm quite aware of how different DPS can be depending on the nature of the fight. That warlock isn't impressive on anything less than boss fights, but is unequalled within the guild on most bosses. Some fights aren't melee friendly (nor is using Dr Boom to measure DPS for that matter), some fights aren't caster friendly, etc. I accept that short of actually running Kara, any measurement is at best an estimate.

As far as that goes, I've been able to break 500 DPS on every level 70 character I've got, even the holy priest (maybe not now that she's not a lolsmiter spec). Mostly BM hunter (even without pet), feral druid, affliction warlock, holy priest. Then again, while I haven't picked up a lot of higher level instance drops, I do study what quest rewards are good, so I'd like to say that if you can't do 450 DPS on Dr Boom, then you need work somewhere, be it gear, ability rotation, etc.

[det]

Pffff..really don't worry too much...We recently did a full clear in 3:15 (everything except spiderboss). Rogue topped dps meters with 850 dps, next rogue 790, 2 warlocks with 660, mage and shammy with 600, fury OT with 475..tank and healer. It is knowing the tactics and having imba T5 tanks and healers IMHO ;)

Curator died in the first evocation..that isn't just dps, considering that people suggest 500-700 dps here in the thread for a starting group. We wiped...and wiped..and wiped when learning the fight.

If everybody can do the quests to attune without being boosted...then you should go. Just don't take people along who are no team-players.

[Tollin]

This is what I meant by defining things above. A few things:

1) Effective DPS will be lower than the regular DPS that SWS shows. It's a meh method of measuing DPS since it is influenced by whether you die in a fight, need to run around, etc.
2) DPS on trash is less important than on bosses. it's not unimportant as the trash should die quickly, but DoTs etc will usually not have their full effect.
3) What you're looking for is... what's my DPS on bosses (and high hp trash perhaps) if I push threat close to the tank and am in the fight for the whole thing?

If you're a tailor, start skilling and saving mats for good tailored gear (Spellstrike etc) and make sure you enchant/gem things. Not greens as you should replace those fast, but good blues and epics. Yes, blues. Yes, even if you're just going to have it a few weeks.


How do I go about setting up my SWS to show the correct type of DPS? I dont care about being #1 or anything like that. I care about being a major contributor to the group/raid.

The other two things I measure, and this comes from being a main healer, is how much healing am I taking? And how often if at all do I pull aggro from the tank?

[Duke Brand]

Mostly true, but not for:

- Curator
- Prince
- Netherspite
- In a limited way, Illhoof. (this is more about dps being awake than having high dps, but the two tend to go together :-))

On any of these, lack of dps will kill you.

If your going to put it in those terms on any boss having a lack of dps can kill you. Prince I have seen 4min kills and I have seen 15 minutes kills. Netherspite can feesibly go on forever.....all you really need is one good dps in the blue beam and competent people to pick up the other beams and your good to go. The only one I even remotely agree with you on is Cruator. If you don't have the dps the orbs will stack and you'll be screwed.

[inkmva]

A bit off topic, but for netherspite, green beam should not be ignored by rogues either, it's a good place to stand around after having the blue debuff ;).

[Aerath]

If your going to put it in those terms on any boss having a lack of dps can kill you. Prince I have seen 4min kills and I have seen 15 minutes kills. Netherspite can feesibly go on forever.....all you really need is one good dps in the blue beam and competent people to pick up the other beams and your good to go. The only one I even remotely agree with you on is Cruator. If you don't have the dps the orbs will stack and you'll be screwed.

Netherspite has a 10minute enrage timer, so no... he can't go on indefinitely.

[swaldman]

If your going to put it in those terms on any boss having a lack of dps can kill you. Prince I have seen 4min kills and I have seen 15 minutes kills. Netherspite can feesibly go on forever.....all you really need is one good dps in the blue beam and competent people to pick up the other beams and your good to go. The only one I even remotely agree with you on is Cruator. If you don't have the dps the orbs will stack and you'll be screwed.

OK... to be more specific,

- On Curator, insufficient dps will lead to you being overwhelmed with orbs - as you mention.

- On Prince, insufficient dps will lead to you being overwhelmed with infernals, particularly in phase 3.

- Netherspite has a 10 minute enrage.

- Illhoof : Chains.

Of course, on any other fight you will die if your healers go OOM before the end - but the ones above are the ones in Karazhan were lack of dps will kill you before this point.

[Ash Housewares]

I just look at their gear and watch them to see if they know how to play, never did much number crunching

RE: Vorpil

if I ever wipe on that fight its because the tank moved him too quick and outran the dps

but honestly if a guild run is having trouble with that fight you've got problems to look into as you are, I've pugged it sooo much the last week or so and the only bad runs were when the tank sprinted out of dps range

[clevins]

Another way to put this is, if your DPS has good gear/stats they'll be able to put out plenty of DPS if they're good players. For example:

A combat sword rogue with 1400AP, 175hit and 20% crit will be just fine. The same rogue with 1000AP, 75hit and 18% crit will not be. Yes, the latter rogue can, by playing very well, compensate for their lack of stats... but given that the better stats are easy to get, you go get them. If someone refuses to get gear to that level (which is all blues, no epics) then they aren't going to be a a good raider. Gear is the easy part - if someone won't do that....

[Ash Housewares]

Gear is the easy part - if someone won't do that....

yes, it can show their commitment

if they have no enchants and their sockets are empty... etc.

[Woodlander]

To the OP: I hate to nit-pick but when you mentioned that the hunter's damage wasn't that bad 'if you include his pet' touched a teeny nerve. IMO hunter DPS should *always* include the pet, if you didn't then noone would every spec BM for raiding (and they do, many, many of us). Most of the fights in Kara are pet friendly (with exceptions like Maiden) and the dps is great.

[Beruen]

To the OP: I hate to nit-pick but when you mentioned that the hunter's damage wasn't that bad 'if you include his pet' touched a teeny nerve. IMO hunter DPS should *always* include the pet, if you didn't then noone would every spec BM for raiding (and they do, many, many of us). Most of the fights in Kara are pet friendly (with exceptions like Maiden) and the dps is great.

Understood, and I agree that the pet DPS should be considered, it just isn't easy to measure using Dr. Boom. I'm being hard on myself in this case, as I'm one of the two hunters with the best DPS in my guild, and yes, I'm the BM spec'ed one of the two. It's more that I think there's room for more DPS and better pet management, especially in my case. Despite this, even with pets on passive/follow, those two hunters put out more DPS than many of our other DPSers.

I'm also glad to hear that most of the fights are pet friendly.