av horde

[zXz]

Curious to find out what the average waiting time in your battlegroup for the horde is at av.

Also, if you play as alliance: have most of you given up on playing av? Or is this simply something going on in the battlegroup I'm in where, on average we have to wait for over an hour to be able to join an av bg.

[Aerath]

It's your battle group.

Some battlegroups, horde still play the pre 2.3 way, which gives honour to both sides. Queues are normal there, alliance might even win some more than they lose.

Other battlegroups, horde play as blizzard intended with 2.3 and as a result of map imbalances win 600-62. In these battlegroups, Alliance stopped queueing (no point spending 20-30 minutes to get 0 honour) and as a result, Horde are sufferering from 1hr-2hr queue times. It's affecting other BGs too, as it's not uncommon for pretty much the entire team to leave, say, AB once the AV queue pops.

[irogue]

It's your battle group.

Some battlegroups, horde still play the pre 2.3 way, which gives honour to both sides. Queues are normal there, alliance might even win some more than they lose.

Other battlegroups, horde play as blizzard intended with 2.3 and as a result of map imbalances win 600-62. In these battlegroups, Alliance stopped queueing (no point spending 20-30 minutes to get 0 honour) and as a result, Horde are sufferering from 1hr-2hr queue times. It's affecting other BGs too, as it's not uncommon for pretty much the entire team to leave, say, AB once the AV queue pops.

/agree totally

I know our battlegroup has given up playing AV. What is the point to see hordies get 500 to 600 honor points and we get 0 to 20? I have one toon with 86 AV marks and she only won 3 games (lost 75 times). My other toon got 45 AV marks and he won 2 games (lost 39 times). What would you do if you were me?

:grin:

[mesonm]

Curious to find out what the average waiting time in your battlegroup for the horde is at av.


Our waiting time (vindication battle group) is much less than a minute usually....and we lose almost all of the time unless people defend.

[memetootoo]

Oh norg. stormstrike battle group for the horde the wait time for AV is 2+ hours. When we do get it, usually we are facing a 40 man premade, so the horde have stop trying to get in as well.

[Aerath]

Oh norg. stormstrike battle group for the horde the wait time for AV is 2+ hours. When we do get it, usually we are facing a 40 man premade, so the horde have stop trying to get in as well.

Good. I hope Blizzard finally get round to sorting out the mess they made with that battleground over various changes, because as it stands it's laughable.

[Pongle]

Alliance who get 600 --> 20'd in AV are terrible and need to learn to defend.

Unfortunately they'd rather cry about map "imbalance" (i.e. horde hits their defence sooner, which should be a negative in our column) than fix their ****.

[celticshinobi]

im alliance and AV used to take mere seconds to about a minute tops to get into..now after 2.3 its gone up to 20 mins, some days 30 mins..its horrible..because i love AV lol

kind of going off on a different note, i never experienced the times when everyone would summon the elementals and the elite riders...some people said those AV's could take hours which wouldnt be cool. i liked the quick 10 min av where both sides would zerg and alliance (yay! lol) would usually win and we'd get major honor..but both sides would get tons of honor regardless of a win or a loss it seemed...at any rate..at times i like those but at times i like a good hard fight and those elementals and whatnot would add some spice..what do you guys think?

[Amiral]

if you've never really done the long AV, you've missed something.

as simple as that.
Would be really nice if there were some kind of out-ward deposit post, by say, Icewing and Tower-point. So you wouldn't have to go all the way back to base to get your air-cover going.

[Cattleya]

Our queues have jumped up. I seriously don't buy the terrain crap either. Any differences aren't enough to create a complete shutout. Stupid strategy and mass Alliance AFKers do that. (Seriously, I had one game last night where only 3 Ally players topped me for damage... and I'm a healer.)

I also had a game yesterday where the Alliance actually played as a team, both on offense and defense. It was great fun, it came down to the wire, and both teams walked away with about the same honor. So, when both teams play smart, both teams get honor. I'd love it if every game was like this, as this is really what I feel Blizzard wanted out of AV, and it does make it more fun.

So, basically, the Alliance needs to over that they can't get a bunch of super quick honor by forcing a race to the end bosses, and enjoy the BG for what is was made for. However, more seem to have decided that sitting AFK or not queuing at all is the better option. It sucks. I can live with the queue times, since I can find other things to do while I wait. What really kills me is that now if I want to see any PvP in there, I'd have to go the the Ally starting cave and kill off AFKers. :tongue:

[Aerath]

Alliance who get 600 --> 20'd in AV are terrible and need to learn to defend.

Unfortunately they'd rather cry about map "imbalance" (i.e. horde hits their defence sooner, which should be a negative in our column) than fix their ****.

Map imbalances would not matter... if the reinforcements weren't around. Downing a bunker and a captain leads to a 200 reinforcement lead which alliance won't swing around. The major imbalance is the horde entrance position. Horde reaching SH/Balinda before Alliance do is somewhat of a give away.

"fix their defense" ? You're forgetting something - both sides are PUGs.
Compare what horde do vs what alliance do.
Horde zerg Balinda. Who do Alliance zerg ? Galvangar.
Horde zerg SH. What do Alliance zerg ? IB is damn hard to zerg with some people defending it as it can only be approached from one way.

The play is the exact same on both sides for the most part.

There's a 23 page on the Elitist Jerks forums about the new av. Both Alliance and Horde agree that the new map and setup is borked.

Anyone talking about 'strategy' is talking out of their rear. You're not going to grab 40 morons and mesh them into a cohesive unit. You have more success teaching cats to enjoy the shower instead of clawing your eyes out.
The best you can do is grab a few non-morons and do something that makes a difference whilst the nitwits zerg nilly-willy.

[Amiral]

"fix their defense" ? You're forgetting something - both sides are PUGs.
Compare what horde do vs what alliance do.
Horde zerg Balinda. Who do Alliance zerg ? Galvangar.
Horde zerg SH. What do Alliance zerg ? IB is damn hard to zerg with some people defending it as it can only be approached from one way.


somewhat incorrect IMO, horde zerg SH + bal ->, alliance zerg galv -> IB ->
which means alliance get more people to IB, tohugh slightly later.

[Aerath]

somewhat incorrect IMO, horde zerg SH + bal ->, alliance zerg galv -> IB ->
which means alliance get more people to IB, tohugh slightly later.

IB has its chokepoint before the GY + Tower.

SH has its chokepoint at Icewing Bunker or even later, at SP.

//edit: Oh well, it's all nice n dandy, but doesn't ultimately make the difference why people stopped queueing. Alliance had the advantage earlier (for whatever it was worth), but horde kept playing as they got as much honour out of it. When alliance/horde/murlocs do not get any honour out of playing a BG, they don't queue anymore. Simply put, people don't play AV because they love it so much more than the other BGs. They do it because they get honour for it. Remove the honour component and noone will be queueing up for it.

[Pongle]

Alliance hit IB late on offense, and they just flat out DO NOT DEFEND in bg9.

The way to win is to send 5 or so to ib tower (ideally mostly melee/healing) then skip past ib to FW.

Horde is pretty much sending 5-10 to the ib choke (and if 20 can't handle 10 there, the 20 sucks) and taking advantage of the fact that to get 20 there alliance will only have 10 on defense due to afkers really it's the alliance own fault at the moment ;(

[Aerath]

What alliance ?

No alliance is queueing on BG9. All you see is people desperate for marks and a number of AFK Bots.

Anyone with half a brain stopped queueing because they weren't getting honour. It really is that simple.

[Imraath]

hrm... 188honor for a 10min match or 0 honor in a 40min match... Why would I bother queuing for AV when all I get is a team full of afk bots?

[Zachariah]

Well, on my battlegroup AV matches go like this (I am Horde):

Very quick queue times, lots of matches up.

Horde side sticks to pre-2.3 mentality: Zerg Balinda then rush to Van, capping whatever you come across on the way. Hope that no Alliance nips back to ruin those caps, though this often happens.

At this point it usually goes one of two ways.

1) Alliance side has done the same and is all trying to kill Drek. Seems to go about 60-40 to Alliance when this happens and depends on who got towers (Marshals) out of the way first. On rare occasions a super-geared tank can make it very easy for us. Alliance tend to win more this way because the changes have not altered the fact that it is still much easier for Allies to zerg Drek than for Horde to zerg Van.

2) Alliance side has split and is defending Van and the graveyard outside (Horde almost never seem to do this). This seems to tip the balance in Horde's favour in the games I've played, as the Allies then don't have the firepower to quickly take down Drek while Horde can usually win out against the defenders now that the npc's in their base aren't so much of a problem...except when they are ;)

Overall it does seem much more even than before the patch, where it was a joke if you were Horde. I can see how uber-teams and pvp gods would complain things are wrong but for us mere mortals it's made a tiresome grind a lot more fun thanks very much.

[Aerath]

Horde side sticks to pre-2.3 mentality

That says it all - why you got instant queues and why alliance wins.

Zerg vs Zerg, alliance have a good chance.

Be glad, because it means you don't have the same problems some of the battlegroups have.

[Twoflower]

i dont know, we still win quite a few AV's on my battlegroup.

Allianze does what they always did, defend the bridge in the base while some few go and try to capture the horde base. It is more of a defense vs defense battle nowadays. I think pre 2.3 horde didnt realy try to defend as they do now.

[mesonm]

Just did preform AV's this weekend, using a mod that allows people to queue sort of as a group.

We won ten matches in a row....Quite a bunch of fun!

[Clavina]

In EU Rampage battlegroup both sides play to the new rules.. ie destroying bunkers then downing the general. The win/loss ratio is about 50-50 depending on the amount of idiots and afk bots on the team. As horde, my wait time is between 30secs and 3mins.

[BIGBEN]

I'm on Kul Tiras, horde - and the wait time is less than a minute. I've probably played 100 av games the last 3 weeks, and the games are really different.

In the good games, almost noone defends, and the game is over in about 10 minutes. Win/loose ratio is about 50-50, giving us 200-500 bonus honor.

Worse case scenario, alot of people defend, meaning the game can last 30 mins, where everyone is mad at each other, no matter if you win or loose, since your getting so little honor pr hour.

I fail to understand how defending can result in more honor pr hour, than just go all offence. Going all out, will result in a short game = more honor to everyone.

[mesonm]

I fail to understand how defending can result in more honor pr hour, than just go all offence. Going all out, will result in a short game = more honor to everyone.

In a ten minute losing game, you might get 200ish honor.

In a premade, you can win with all towers and 640ish honor in around 15 min. We did it many times earlier in the week, in 12-14 min.

[xDarkDrifterx]

Most on my server have given up on AV completely and you still hear "BAN AV" in trade. Though the times in my battlegroup are still less than two mins (you usually get a que in a min or less).

It's rough to ride all the way across the zone only to come up to a wall of horde who are all already dismounted, positioned, buffed each other up, totems laid, etc etc at the bottleneck near SH GY and Galv when you have alliance people saying "why bother buffing up? we're just gonna loose" and they don't buff anyone. Non-pvper's get owned continuously, so they just don't go anymore. This might actually be good for the rest of us that enjoy it and know what's up, know to defend, etc.

The thing is - people don't like one big turtle. Yes, if played correctly it may not be a turtle, but there's too many people that don't work together, listen, or pvp well (that's why some people only did AV before the change - because they suk at pvp - AV gave those people a chance at some honor). Also the chance of a turtle (though this change was to partially stop turtling) is greater now than it ever was. So, now it's mostly people forming premades (for BG's other than AV) with required resilliance or stat levels, and others just form up with no requirements or still go with pugging it, but less and less people play AV. The only good thing is that it's filtering out those that can't read some strategies online, pvp, listen, learn, or defend. I'm looking for the AV premades where everyone knows wtf is going on - which is hopefully coming soon. They need to allow "join as group" for AV.

[Cattleya]

@BIGBEN: The problem here is that you (and it sounds like your teammates) are looking at things purely from an honor per hour standpoint. What ever happened to having fun in the battleground? :wink:

In the AVs I'm in it's about winning while keeping our towers standing and killing as many Alliance players as we can in the meantime. In fact, with the longer queue times we have now, people really want more of a fight they can enjoy rather than a quick 600 honor. The good news is, the people that queue up on the Alliance during the day seem to be pretty on the ball now and we get some good fights. (The "boycott" is weeding out the honor farmers, it seems.) I'll take a good fight with 300 bonus honor for 30-40 minutes over 600 honor in 15 minutes where you never see an enemy player.

Yes, I need the honor, but I'd rather have fun getting it than just grind it out. Fortunately, I don't think I'm alone in this on the horde side in my battlegroup. Yay for PvP-heavy battlegroups. :grin:

[Aerath]

People needing 75k honour for a couple of alts each would probably beg to differ.

[Cattleya]

People needing 75k honour for a couple of alts each would probably beg to differ.

Well, just keep in mind, some of us still play for fun and not just for the purple pixels. :wink:

[Clavina]

Well, just keep in mind, some of us still play for fun and not just for the purple pixels. :wink:

The 'fun' of BG's evaporates very quickly after the millionth run. I'm a prot warrior normally and I go to AV *only* to get honour for my vindicators and S1 gear so that I'm competitive in my arena team. For me a fast lose is far superior to a slow win, I go to arena for fun.

[Aerath]

Well, just keep in mind, some of us still play for fun and not just for the purple pixels. :wink:

If I want fun, I'll go somewhere where I'm not surrounded by 39 ignoramuses.

In the Arena you can count on your team players at least being there and hopefully being competent or at least good friends.

Yet, to play Arena, you have to go grind out items from BGs which most of the people who played for a while have seen countless times.

I quite enjoy the odd Battleground. But, similar to enjoying an instance run, I don't quite enjoy running the same instance 40-50 times a day. Which, essentially, doing BGs boils down to. Games are more similar the more numbers are involved, so AV in that way is the 'worst' of them all.

[rottentomato]

av really irritates me on my realm...there are so many premade groups that i end up queuing up and getting in in less than a minute, but then its a 15 minute game where we get no honor because there are 20 afkers in the cave, and the other 20 are split trying to defend and trying to attack against 40 alliance that just dominate with 15 defenders/25 attackers...just not quite the same anymore. i miss the old runs where it was zerg bal/van and see how fast you get there and down the two of them for that 200 honor... 10 minutes at 200 honor > 30 minutes and getting 0-60 honor on a loss or 15 minute premade twice with 0 honor... i'll take my 600 honor anyday in 30 minutes over 0 honor in 30....and when i end up playing 6 or 7 games winning one for 200 honor taking 2 hours, it makes me wonder why im not farming eye of the storm to get my gear so i can arena and actually enjoy myself

[Cattleya]

It seems like the real solution here for Blizz is to allow arena points to be used as an alternate form of payment for the honor gear or something along those lines. Perhaps the really problematic change with 2.3 was the S1 gear for honor making people feel like that had to grind honor before they could do arena.

Personally, arena doesn't do much for me. I suppose you can think that the fact that I enjoy battlegrounds makes me naive, nooby, or brain damaged. It still doesn't change the fact that I do enjoy them. :smiley:

[Aerath]

It seems like the real solution here for Blizz is to allow arena points to be used as an alternate form of payment for the honor gear or something along those lines. Perhaps the really problematic change with 2.3 was the S1 gear for honor making people feel like that had to grind honor before they could do arena.

Personally, arena doesn't do much for me. I suppose you can think that the fact that I enjoy battlegrounds makes me naive, nooby, or brain damaged. It still doesn't change the fact that I do enjoy them. :smiley:

How many battlegrounds have do you done by now ? Have you even hit exalted on one character ? (Let alone 2, before the massive rep boost and AV changes ?)

And people don't *feel* like they have to grind honour. It's a necessity. Without honour gear (essentially s1 as the blue gear is lightyears behind) you are nothing but a road bump. So both beginners and veterans need the honour - when the new season arrives, you need a new necklace + ring + belt + boots + bracers and perhaps that new trinket.

I really would appreciate Blizzard detaching Arenas from the need of BG gear.

[mesonm]

I really would appreciate Blizzard detaching Arenas from the need of BG gear.

I welcome the inverse.....which is to give people the opportunity to earn the arena gear using honor.

I don't arena, but love BG's.

and, since with the preform AV mod we can do preform AV groups, we win almost all games within 15 min.

[Recklaw]

What is your mod name? Where did you get it?

[mesonm]

What is your mod name? Where did you get it?

Can't recall exactly....but if you go to the normal mod sites and put in *hint, hint* preform AV, you'll find it.

I do not believe I'm allowed to link to competing mod sites, or I would tell you exactly.

[Aerath]

There's a couple

Lightqueue or Stinkyqueue should do the trick.

[korl]

I am playing an UD rogue level 60, beginner PvP-er, started BG-s about 1 month ago, to give you an idea of how much I did BG-s lately: I got the HWL sword, I am capped on AV and AB marks and currently farming the 27k honor needed to get the S1 level 70 swords. I have about 12k honor accumulated right now.

I have read many materials about BG strategy, got a thick printout with maps, strategies and whatnot. After all these BG-s played, my conclusion is: just go for the kills, whether your team wins or loses. There is a complete chaos, and total gankage, in the last 100 or so matches I kept track of honor bonus points and honor gained when we win and when we lose, and If i get in a lot of kills it almost doesnt matter if we win or lose, I still get about the same honor: 300-ish. On a beautiful game when we win with a huge margin, I get maybe 400-500 honor, but that is rare.

I wish I had the chance to play on an organized group and actually get to use the strategies that I read about. Until then, I just go in for the kills, sad but true. Basically, the same as the whole WoW: a lot in the game is meant for meaningful group play, but you end up doing a lot of solo stuff.

[LunarSolaris]

As AV stands right now, I'll have nothing to do with it on my battlegroup.

I find it humorous that so many horde keep saying that the tide changed because "alliance suck" and "alliance don't defend". While there is some truth to these statements, it comes far from explaining the drastic shift in AV and the horde dominating in some battle groups. It's not a simple solution.

All I can say is that at least on this level it's poetic justic to some extent to see horde have to wait up to 2+ hours in queue when alliance once had that type of wait.

Until something changes with the current AV, it can die in a flaming ball of poo.

[BIGBEN]

I'm playing horde on Reckoning, and the wait time is normally less than a minute, highest I've ever seen it is 3 mins.

The AV games are really different.

We have what I would like to call the good games, where both groups go offensive, trying to complete the bg. Alliance probably wins 60%-40%, but because these games last around 10 mins each, and giving 200-500 honor, it's great honor pr hour, and good fun.

Then we have the bad games, where one or both groups decide to defend. I think horde have a better win %, but these games can last up to 30 mins, which ofc is very little honor pr hour. And these games can really get my piss going,...I try to persuade my fellow hordies to join in on the attack, and sometimes I just leave after 15 mins, because I can see that this isn't getting anywhere. I then fish, grind, check ah, whatever for 15 mins, and join a new - hopefully fast game :)

I can't say I enjoy AV much, but perhaps I've played to much. I dinged 70 3-4 weeks ago, and I grinded aprox 173.900 honor since then + ALOT of marks :)

That's around 7K honor on average, and I play the games, I don't afk them :P

[irogue]

As AV stands right now, I'll have nothing to do with it on my battlegroup.

I find it humorous that so many horde keep saying that the tide changed because "alliance suck" and "alliance don't defend". While there is some truth to these statements, it comes far from explaining the drastic shift in AV and the horde dominating in some battle groups. It's not a simple solution.

All I can say is that at least on this level it's poetic justic to some extent to see horde have to wait up to 2+ hours in queue when alliance once had that type of wait.

Until something changes with the current AV, it can die in a flaming ball of poo.

I was lucky to pug in a premade from Mal'ganis Alliance.

We won 627 - 0.

OMG. The first time in my life after 400+ AV marks (2 characters).

In AV, horde can win easily by defending in the beginning and force us back to the bottle neck (SPGY). Alliance can win but we have to organize and fight much harder to win.

I was in the offensive groups so I only remember the first 4 groups:

Group 1 & 2 take FWGY. Group 2 stay at FWGY until it cap. Group 1 advance to RHGY and cap. Group 3 & 4 follow Group 1&2 but fall back to cap IBGY after FWGY is taken.

I am sure that the other 4 groups were defending and blocking horde somewhere and I wish I had written it down (I did not know that I was going to win).