Endgame MVP

[Tikki]

I very rarely ask questions regarding endgame, since I'm under the impression of "don't ask a question until you know a little bit about it"...but my curiosity is to strong today.

After reading several threads today regarding end game raids, and valuable classes, I'm left with a feeling that I've under estimated the value of class selection and corresponding spec selection.

For those that raid frequently, what is the most valuable class to have in your group (including their spec)?

Is it fair to say that once you reach 70, and are fairly geared up, some classes are almost always going to be favoured to have in a raid than others? Or in the end, are all classes and speccs needed equally?

I'm hesitant to ask this question because I know so little about end game content, and I'm sure there are tons of underlying factors...perhaps not!

[det]

Protection warrior are always needed in raids :)

But so are holy and shadowpriests, resto shamans, resto druids, feral druids (there are several 3-4 tank fights) and then you need your dps. Leo is best done with a tanking lock and so is one of Kael's adds. Mages tank the mage at King Maulgar. Hunters for MD. Paladins to heal and even to OT or AoE tank.

You could say every class is needed. Some fights favor ranged dps, others melee.

But with "endgame" you might as well say heroics. If properly geared, a fury warrior can tank a heroic, but really it is the point where you want a protection warrior and a healing specced...erm...healer (druid, shaman, priest or paladin)

[irogue]

I very rarely ask questions regarding endgame, since I'm under the impression of "don't ask a question until you know a little bit about it"...but my curiosity is to strong today.

After reading several threads today regarding end game raids, and valuable classes, I'm left with a feeling that I've under estimated the value of class selection and corresponding spec selection.

For those that raid frequently, what is the most valuable class to have in your group (including their spec)?

Is it fair to say that once you reach 70, and are fairly geared up, some classes are almost always going to be favoured to have in a raid than others? Or in the end, are all classes and speccs needed equally?

I'm hesitant to ask this question because I know so little about end game content, and I'm sure there are tons of underlying factors...perhaps not!

I have not done much and only raided in Kara (cleared) and TK (once). Here is what our guild usually had:


In Kara, 2 healers (pally/druid/priest) and 2 tanks (warriors/durids).

Shadow priests (me) were always welcome to the raid (crowd control and mana regen).

Warlocks were needed to fight shade in Kara and Void Reaver in TK (crowd control).

The other DPS classes might have to fight for the rest of raiding slots...

[Twoflower]

prot warriors of course.

and the most important class in my group would be a shadow priest. bye bye mana problems :D

but good players is more important than class composition in raids. Every class can bring value to the group. In every spec. Players who dont know their char on the other hand always drag a raid down, no matter what they play.

[Tikki]

twoflower: I have to agree. In the end it would really depend on the competency of the player, rather than their class.

From what I'm gathering, priests of any spec are almost ALWAYS welcome to a raid group, as well as fury warriors.

Where do hunters, mages, and rogues fall? Are they sought after? And warlocks? irouge you mentioned that they're needed for Kara and TK, would they still be a highly sought after class aside from that?

[det]

Healthstones, wipe recovery, taxi service, raise raid damage by a decent amount with CoS and CoE, lower damage to entire raid by 5% with SE. Can buff group with stamina. Can be on top of damage meters with mages, rogues hunters. We take 3-4 of them to TK.

Not sure where we CC at Voidreaver (we certainly do it before VR on the trash) and we are pretty much essential to SoC for AoE damage on:

Hydross, Morogrims murlocks, party mobs in Kara, Illhoof imps, Solarian adds, Solarian trash etc...etc..etc...

Plus we are pretty good kiters for the striders at LV and can help with CoEx to slow them even more.

In Instances we can seduce for CC and BF with a warlock is a piece of cake. We CoT and banish at Magtheridon's channellers..hell, yeah. You want warlocks.

[mesonm]

Most important? Tanks and healers...usually.

Can't go without those, ever. But, with those, you can often form different group makeups from the available dps. Some of thise groups will be GREAT, while others may not succeed at all.

But, if you don't have enough tanks, or enough healers, you won't even begin.

[Aerath]

Most classes and specs (not all, mind you) are highly sought after in raids.

Even 'hybrids'. A group of 5 rogues will do damage. But put a single Shaman in there who drops a windfury totem for them, and the combined package of 4 rogues + 1 shaman will be far greater than 5 rogues.
But, put a single rogue vs a single shaman and likely the shaman will get murdered on the damage meter.

Rogues get far better the more buffs they get and debuffs are on the target. So you need people to buff them and debuff the target. A Warrior sundering the target for less armour on the boss with help them. A Blessing of Might will help them. etc etc.

Similarly, Mages do awesome damage. Until they run out of mana. So, put a Shadow Priest in their group and all of a sudden they get mana returning. That same shadow priest will also help increase the Warlocks' damage - making them even more desirable. That same warlock can help the mage damage with Curse of the Elements.

Moonkins provide a crit aura - Paladins get mana back from crit heals. Mages do more damage from crits. Their Insect Swarm might help keeping the tank alive. Their Faerie Fire makes the boss easier to hit, helping melee.

Etc etc.

However, most of those are redundant beyond the first. A second shadow priest isn't going to help the warlocks anymore to improve their damage beyond what the first one provided. Another moonkin isn't going to help the melee, or their group.

A good hunter and a good rogue will destroy the damage meters. That's why they're brought on board. As well as a few occasions where people need class skills (e.g. Rogue interrupt, or the hunter using the Legendary Bow on the Kael'Thas fight).

Etc etc.

Hope this helped a bit :)

[Tikki]

Thanks guys :)

I've gathered this

- healers and tanks are a must have in any raid groups. Which classes make them up is is dependent on the raid and group
-Every class/spec is needed/welcome, therefore making almost all classes/specs valuable in end.
-I'm not going to have to start a new toon to ensure that i'll be a valuable and wanted player in a raid-I just need talent and HEART!

Thank you for the information. I must say, not having played end game content, when you hear things about it, it becomes intimidating.

I always (and most likely wrongly) assumed that as a priest, you were a sure win into any raid group. But then today I was reading a thread on here that made me think "hmmm...". I appreciate you informing a newbie like myself :)

[clevins]

tikki,

I'd slightly disagree with the 'most specs' part of the above... There are some specs for each class that are better for raiding while others are better for PvP. For example as a rogue you can choose one of 2, maybe 3 main specs. But there are other fun specs that gimp your damage a lot. Yes, you CAN raid with them, but you're hurting your ability to do damage which is the reason you're chosen for raids. LIkewise, you can do funky specs that are off the beaten path... but you're unlikely to do as well with those as with one of the recognized builds for the class you play.

More important than class and spec though, is grouping experience. Run instances as you level up and get used to the role you want in 5 mans. If you want to heal, heal. If you want to dps, do that, etc... but raiding is, esp in Kara, much the same as five mans in some basic ways - letting the tank get aggro, how to react if the tank loses aggro, how to heal a group ( you might need to let the one dps die to save the tank in a given fight... but you might NOT... how do you tell the difference?), etc etc...

Raiding guilds often ask/demand you spec a certain way... more casual guilds don't. You might not clear BT with the latter... but you can go a long way - we're starting SSC and beyond soon and we're nothing if not casual... :)

[irogue]

You also have to consider the "number" factor. We had about 20 hunters in my previous guild and 4 to 6 in the other classes. In the current guild, we have rogues, warriors and paladins in teens and the other classes are around 6.

The kara run is a 10 man raid so after 2 healers and 2 tanks are filled, there are 6 slots for DPS classes. Whom do you pick? 1 or 2 out of the 20 hunters get to raid...

[Tikki]

clevins: thanks for clearing up.

I suppose when it comes to specs it's less of a worry, since you can always change your spec.

In terms of class, irogue and others make a great point- supply and demand.

So, should someone be worried about the class they choose and their ability to do endgame raids? I say this because my main is a lock, and and I'm concerned that I won't be 'needed' for endgame raids (or to say it differently, it'll be difficult for me to get in them).

[irogue]

No worries – every class is needed in one way or another as many implied in the previous posts.

As long as you finish the kara key chain quests and gear up yourself out side of the raids through professions (tailoring*), heroic or battle grounds, you guild sees you self-motivated, respectable and valuable to the guild. You will be invited definitely.

Endgame raids do offer you lots of entertainment such as team work, accomplishment, fat epic loots… However, I am kind of tired of raiding myself because you have to raid for 4 hours straight 3 days a week. Not to mention the drama for the epic loots. I tend to do more BGs or arena games atm because they are short and you can always take a break whenever you need it. The rewards are also as nice as some of the raid loots.


Tailoring*
Frozen Shadoweave robe
Frozen Shadoweave shoulders
Frozen Shadoweave Boots

[Shellar]

prot warriors of course
Or prot paladins.

Thanks to oh-so-sweet patch 2.3 which boosted both the paladins' survivability and the warriors' threat generation (capped expertise FTW), both classes can tank 95% of all endgame encounters with equal ease.

[clevins]

Tikki,

Locks can do incredibly high damage if they're geared, specced and played well. Add in some CC (banish and enslave) and you're fine.

[Justinledwards]

Locks are great in kara, gruuls lair. It'll be a little while before you get past that probably. So don't worry about it :D

[teck21]

Much as tanks are needed in raids in theory, I think one will find most recruitment threads from serious or semi-serious raiding guilds focusing on healers. Maybe one one thread in ten on my realm forums are looking for tanks, and when they do, it's usually some newly formed guild that does zerg recruiting just to get numbers up, and they usually don't last long.

One of the main reasons is that the role of a/the tank is so important that guilds tend to have a core group of well-geared tanks. And when one or more of them decide to leave tanking or the game, they frequently get another member of the same class to respec to tanking to take over.

That's not to say a tank couldn't get into a serious raiding guild, it's just harder to prove to a guild that you're capable of filling their tank slot, especially gearing up for it. PVP purples are useless for tanking mainly. Any guild with a fair bit of progression will almost certainly want a full or close to full Kara geared tank, which itself involves raiding. I can't speak for other realms, but on mine, there aren't many, if any Kara pugs yet.

That's because these members who take over often have picked up enough gear from past runs to have an effective tanking set, and know the fights, and known to be dependable.

Simply getting a tank from outside (not including established tanks from other guilds who lleft for whatever reasons) offers no guarantee at all that the new tank brings along all these qualities.

Guilds are by far much more willing to recruit healers from outside evrytime they need new ones.

As for DPS classes, I personally feel that any dps class is over supplied. Same reason why 5-mans are always looking for tank and healer and only sometimes looking for a dps member of a certain class and/or spec.

[Aurum]

I think its different from server to server what is needed. However i think as a lock you will get into a raiding-guild if you just got yourself some good gear.
It might however be harder to get the pre-raiding, pre-heroic gear if you ask me. If you dont have alot of friends that is kind and willing to run you through normals that is. But then again if you have tailoring you can make yourself some realy nice gear.

Just play the charracter you find most fun. Sure you will probebly have it easyer finding 5 mans with a tank/healer but it wont be as fun in the long run playing a char you realy didnt like as mutch as your main!

[Baboon]

There isn't a class that's left out of a raid. There are some classes that will be asked to spec something in particular.

I think these are pretty common:

shaman: most likely a resto

warrior: most likely prot

priest: surprisingly, often asked to be shadow. But unless a guild has loads of other healers, plenty room for holy

paladin: most likely holy

druid: most likely resto, sometimes tank

The DPS classes don't have issues really, rogues are highly popular later on (BT), Mages do fine, warlocks are great at everything (what else is new) and hunters are decent too.

[Tikki]

Thanks for all the information guys.

I was getting concerned about the benefits of rolling a lock when it came to end game (it's questionable if I'll ever see it since I'm painfully slow!). It's great to know that a lock, if geared correctly, can make an excellent contribution to an endgame group.

Over time, I've noticed that on the server I play on, most people are requesting healers and tanks for end game content. aurum, I like your comment about the different servers, because it really highlights the different factors that play into endgame content.

I suppose in the end it's really how well you play your class, and a bit of luck. I must say that I think I'll have a lovely group of people helping me out on my server :)

Thanks for the info guys :)

[Naolin]

It can be intimidating to join an endgame raiding guild, but 3 weeks ago I made the jump myself and applied (as a rogue) for an endgame raiding guild and lookie now I made it through the trail period and am now a normal member. Its not that hard but it can take some time.

[Twoflower]

Or prot paladins.

Thanks to oh-so-sweet patch 2.3 which boosted both the paladins' survivability and the warriors' threat generation (capped expertise FTW), both classes can tank 95% of all endgame encounters with equal ease.

there are some encounters where you need a warrior, that s why i said warrior. RoS or Illidan come to mind.

[Aerath]

there are some encounters where you need a warrior, that s why i said warrior. RoS or Illidan come to mind.

Paladins can block as well - so should be able to deal with Shear.

I think it's a bloody screwy mechanism to keep Druids from tanking him.

At least with Kael'thas you can ignore the shield and just brute force him with enough health to soak one pyroblast.

[clevins]

tikki,

Remember, too, that endgame can mean very different things. Karazhan can be endgame to some whereas the Black Temple is being farmed by others. I can't remember what level you are or what your guild is like, but it will take you some time to progress past Kara and the heroics.

If it's something you're interested in, though, I DO think you should focus on levelling to 70 (if you're not now). If you're 70 too close to the release of Lich King you won't really spend much time at the current endgame. Most people won't want to raid Kara and try to kill Curator again when there's new content and the gear at 72 will make Kara stuff look underpowered.

[rgirty]

The first optional class needed is a shadowpriest.

You must have tanks, healers, dps (which can be composed of many many classes, from druid tanks to warriors, pally tanks and every class that can heal.)

The most needed non big three class is a shadowpriest.

Tanks and healers are typically more in demand than dps as well.

[irogue]

tikki,

Remember, too, that endgame can mean very different things. Karazhan can be endgame to some whereas the Black Temple is being farmed by others. I can't remember what level you are or what your guild is like, but it will take you some time to progress past Kara and the heroics.

If it's something you're interested in, though, I DO think you should focus on levelling to 70 (if you're not now). If you're 70 too close to the release of Lich King you won't really spend much time at the current endgame. Most people won't want to raid Kara and try to kill Curator again when there's new content and the gear at 72 will make Kara stuff look underpowered.

/QFT

It is expected that green items in Northrend will be better than current Tier 4 equipment. (http://www.wowwiki.com/World_of_Warcraft:_Wrath_of_the_Lich_King)

:smiley:

[mesonm]

The kara run is a 10 man raid so after 2 healers and 2 tanks are filled, there are 6 slots for DPS classes. Whom do you pick? 1 or 2 out of the 20 hunters get to raid...

Note that he mentions two healers and two tanks, then we pick to fill the rest...

Thus, two healers and two tanks get to go....ALWAYS.

On my server, there are LOTS of rogues and hunters. So, chances are that they won't go alot.

[Shellar]

there are some encounters where you need a warrior, that s why i said warrior. RoS or Illidan come to mind.
That's why I said 95% instead of 100.

[clevins]

Note that he mentions two healers and two tanks, then we pick to fill the rest...

Thus, two healers and two tanks get to go....ALWAYS.

On my server, there are LOTS of rogues and hunters. So, chances are that they won't go alot.

A popular misconception. The fact is you don't raid with your server, you raid with your guild. If Tikki is in a guild with 7 other raiding locks when she hits 70 that might be an issue. But the general lock population doesn't really matter... her server could be stuffed to the gills with locks... the issue is how many are good, how many raid and how many are in her guild.

At one point we had 10 people who could reasonably tank or offtank Kara. We were running 2 groups... so we had 4 spots. I ran the second group and had 4 tanks for 2 spots. I usually barely made the dps slots. Go figure...

Now, there ARE a lot of rogues and hunters... the question is how many are good. You want to be a very good X whatever X is. If you're a 'lock and you know your class and have a good spec you'll be hitting one bar. If, soon after you hit 70 you invest in the Frozen Shadoweave pieces and the Spellstrike pieces you'll be showing you're serious about advancing yourself.

[Naolin]

On my server, there are LOTS of rogues and hunters. So, chances are that they won't go alot.

there are a lot of rogues and hunters on my server as well, but we only have two active rogues (four in total) and four hunters in my raid groupe.
So that doesn't really mean a thing. Hell druids are pretty rare, but we seem to have more of those then pure dps :p

[Wintrow]

Rogues and hunters are the typical "hard to get a spot" class. Not because of how useful they are (or aren't) but, like someone before me mentioned, because there are a lot of them.

Rogues and Hunters both bring high and reliable dps to the table, so there's certainly more than one place for them...

[moopy]

Rogues and hunters are the typical "hard to get a spot" class. Not because of how useful they are (or aren't) but, like someone before me mentioned, because there are a lot of them.

Bah, you posted what I was going to- what he said :)

Still, good rogues and hunters who can safely push their dps to true endgame limits and know the theorycraft inside-out are rare. The problem is standing out from the crowd enough to let people know that you are that good.

The main thing is that if you're raiding with a class, you'll be playing it a lot, so you might as well enjoy it. You have to learn it inside out, and display near-virtuousity in all aspects, so it might as well be something that suits you. If you are smart enough, and play well enough, any class is a good raider- you "just" need to find a you-shaped hole.