Loot Denied - Post Your Stories Here

[TheConfusedCaster]

"Everyone who linked, just roll", were the last chilling, yet careless words I heard uttered from my raid leader on vent as the Helm of the Vanquished Hero (T5 helm off Vashj, boss of SSC) was rolled for. I held my roll like a carefully aimed shot, waited, then viciously punched my desperate /roll 1-100, only to see another lock beat me by a hair. "Grats *********!" (name edited out for privacy) resounded as the winning lock took his prize, a piece that would've given me the T5 set bonus. I wouldn'tve cared, in fact, I love it when other members get gear as it helps our progression, but the problem was, this specific person sucked. Yes, that's right, they blew hard. This specific person even had their raid attendance rights threatened by the very fact their DPS was so lacking they were getting worked over on the charts by ret pallies. I on the other hand, was topping the charts, and even hit #1 on the dps meters at one point. My attendance history made this fellow warlocks' surprise visits look worse than a druggies high school truancy record.

It wasn't a matter of gear either, this person had superb gear and other T5 pieces, his spec was even similar to mine, but he was generally an idiot. A moron, but a very familiar veteran and thus unfortunately, a very popular moron. No one in the loot council had the common sense to realize this person did NOT need that gear, nor the balls to actually stand up and say it. To make matters worse, this specific warlock was not allowed to raid the next day as the raid setup was arranged to maximize DPS for new content. An entire Tier 5 helm lost, and my chances slimmed even narrower by my guilds aspirations to leave Tier 5 content for Hyjal once they down Kael.

Upgrading to a Tier 5 helm as a lock wouldn'tve been too much of an upgrade from what I already had, more stam/intel and about 12 more spell damage with gems, but it was the T5 set bonus I would've achieved that made me want it, and the badass look of the helm. To make matters worse, the moron who won it decided to disable the helm graphic with the justification that it "looks better on gnomes" (I am a gnome btw).

Have any of you experienced this as well? Maybe not on a high-end raiding scale, but have you ever seen complete noobs get gear that you knew you deserved? Post your stories here.

Thanks.

[PlayThemAll]

That's one of the many reasons I don't Raid and don't do many instances any more.

[Aerath]

DKP ftw.

Nuff said.

[irogue]

Be happy for at least you got the chance to roll.

My guild loot rule number 1 is "for the best of the guild".

My shadowpriest spent 3 weeks leveling tailoring and farming mats for FSW gears after she turned 70. I also spent weeks in BGs grinding honors points to replace the rest of her green/blue gears with S1 gears. Not to mention the badge of justice from grinding heroic instances.

Many times, I had to give up my "roll" right and said congrats to the ppl who wore greens or blues because they got "greater upgrade" and it is for the best of the guild.

"For the best of the guild" also means the tanks get the loots 1st, the healers 2nd and finally the DPS.

Yep, i had to give up the right to roll for the T4 helm over the druid tank becasue it is for the best of the guild.

I don't raid anymore, and if I do, I am going to raid naked.

[Azori]

I can never find a group for anything, so haven't even got to raiding yet :p

I've just had all the old ninja problems.

[SwervinCL]

Thats why we always set the loot on master loot. 1 person decides who gets the item. Of coarse after the equiped items have been linked and or inspected. If it is a nice upgrade for more than 1 person, THEN it is rolled on.

[TheConfusedCaster]

Just for clarification: My guild does have a loot council, but the officer core is made up of healers and tanks mostly, so DPS gear is kind of moot to them. They just kind've threw a "meh, just roll" attitude at the helm in question, while it was a BIG deal for the DPSers.

[FlareCDE]

If you play for loot, expect to be disappointed frequently. I play for the challenge and the fun of playing with friends. Loot varies between being a simple byproduct and a necessary evil.

[maladroit2000]

If you are not satisfied with your guild's looting policy then either get it changed or leave the guild. Presumably you both went into the raid knowing what the rules were? Do you expect him to pass the helmet to you because you are higher on the damage meters? And what exactly does this warlock being "a moron" (in your opinion) have to do with who gets what loot?

I suggest you find a guild which distributes dps loot according to who is highest on the dps list. Oh wait...

You didn't win the hat, fair and square. I suggest you get over it.

[Leviathonlx]

I am more amazed that a guild in ssc/tk uses /rand instead of a actual loot system like loot council or dkp.

[piscene]

Maybe you could offer some tips to the sucky DPSer? No point raiding with someone and hating their playstyle. If you nicely offer some advice, and he tells you to piss off, go to the guild leaders and campaign for his expulsion.

[TheConfusedCaster]

If you are not satisfied with your guild's looting policy then either get it changed or leave the guild. Presumably you both went into the raid knowing what the rules were? Do you expect him to pass the helmet to you because you are higher on the damage meters? And what exactly does this warlock being "a moron" (in your opinion) have to do with who gets what loot?

I suggest you find a guild which distributes dps loot according to who is highest on the dps list. Oh wait...

You didn't win the hat, fair and square. I suggest you get over it.

I'm a bit intoxicated but even under the influence of captain morgans i'm a bit unsure of what you are doing here crying on this topic. The rules of my guild are pretty much up in the air when it comes to loot compared to the dkp guilds. As I said, dps gear is moot to the officers so they gave it a "meh" and let everyone roll. It's not a huge deal, we're moving onto T6 content once we down kael so i'll have a chance at Tier 6, it's just the fact that such a noob was allowed to obtain the gear that annoys me, I was wondering if others had a similar situation, move on lad.

[Twoflower]

DKP ftw.

Nuff said.

oh yes, very much so.


i was once in the position to be loot master for one of our karazhan runs. back after release when the items there werent only sought by twinks. The guild leaders had the "foresight" to only do DKP for 25man raids. Who would have thaught, i got whispers during the entire raid and most of all the next 2 hours after the raid why i gave item X to player Y who does not deserve it as much as player Z etc etc. I did it once, and never again.

I tried to do it fair, taking into acount how long someone has been raiding in this group, how much of a upgrade the item woul dbe, the activity of players and every other thing i could think of. it just does NOT work.

you need one clear set of rules for everyone. The guy who bids most of the points wins the item. Over and out. If you dont agree with loot distribution, raid more and you'll get more.

and to anyone who is in a guild using one of these strange gut feeling loot systems, get out of there while you can.

[spadron]

It's a game....you rolled, you lost. You're no more deserving than him, just because you're better at the game.

[clevins]

The guild leaders had the "foresight" to only do DKP for 25man raids.


Actually I think full on DKP for Kara is overkill. We do a modifed roll system:

Loot is master loot so a silly roll doesn't accidentally win an item

anyone who wants an item with the master looter links it rolls. Default roll is 1-100. For every run where you don't win something, you gain 10 points. A run is a night, so if the run takes 2 nights and nothing comes your way on the first night, the second night you roll 10-110. This carries over run to run.

That system works great in Kara and ZA. It rewards participation but doesn't get into 'the raid will benefit more if we give that to Joe instead of Jim' issues which are, um, silly usually. It's dkp like but avoids the complexity of bidding or having to set prices and people gear up quickly. We've used the same system in Gruul a few times and I think it will be OK there and in Mag. I'm not so sure in SSC and beyond, but we'll see.

To the OP... I've lost items, but nothing like yours. It would pain me to see the Talon drop off Morogrim and lose it to a crappy player. Of course, I'd scream about the crappy player LONG before we go there... :)

[maladroit2000]

I'm a bit intoxicated but even under the influence of captain morgans i'm a bit unsure of what you are doing here crying on this topic. The rules of my guild are pretty much up in the air when it comes to loot compared to the dkp guilds. As I said, dps gear is moot to the officers so they gave it a "meh" and let everyone roll. It's not a huge deal, we're moving onto T6 content once we down kael so i'll have a chance at Tier 6, it's just the fact that such a noob was allowed to obtain the gear that annoys me, I was wondering if others had a similar situation, move on lad.

I am not the one crying in this thread.

Like I said, you lost fair and square - get over it.

[Tort]

I am not the one crying in this thread.

Like I said, you lost fair and square - get over it.

I really don't think he was crying, just explaining a situation in regards to loot and wondering if anyone else has experienced it. Your "QQ More" comments are not very helpful, so maybe you should wander off to another thread.

If a guild uses loot council (like mine does), the members of the council must know alot about all kinds of loot and which players would most benefit from it. In almost every single raiding guild I know, things like attendance, degree of upgrade, AND raid performance are always used in determining who gets loot.

Rolling off loot in a 25 man instance for a tier piece just because the loot council is too lazy to come to a proper decision is unacceptable. You should really bring your concerns to the raid leader.

It's a game....you rolled, you lost. You're no more deserving than him, just because you're better at the game.

Once again, this is wrong. Raid performance is almost always a factor in 25 man raids when a loot council is the one distributing loot. Attendance is also a big factor.

[maladroit2000]

I really don't think he was crying, just explaining a situation in regards to loot and wondering if anyone else has experienced it. Your "QQ More" comments are not very helpful, so maybe you should wander off to another thread.


His guild distributed loot according to its own rules, which he was presumably aware of. He lost and now he comes to a forum whining about it. I don't see why people should have sympathy for him - if he does not agree with the looting rules why is he still raiding with that guild?

[Marlous]

You know, if you don't fancy a person complaining about something that you find acceptable, you could always decide to just not read their thread.. let alone post in it..

[maladroit2000]

You know, if you don't fancy a person complaining about something that you find acceptable, you could always decide to just not read their thread.. let alone post in it..

Erm... this is a discussion forum and I felt like making a point.

[piscene]

i'm a bit unsure of what you are doing here crying on this topic.


I thing a number of you may have missed the fact that it was TCC accusing maladroit of crying initially, not the other way around, to which this was his reply:

I am not the one crying in this thread.


I didn't think anyone was crying, but theconfusedcaster was drunk posting in his response, which may work okay in the OT forum, but maybe not quite as well in a more logic-based discussion such as this one.

[TheConfusedCaster]

His guild distributed loot according to its own rules, which he was presumably aware of. He lost and now he comes to a forum whining about it. I don't see why people should have sympathy for him - if he does not agree with the looting rules why is he still raiding with that guild?

I was a bit drunk when I posted here last night in response to you, but it seems that even in an intoxicated state, I made the right move. You are completely deluded to what the topic is here. If this was truly a guild issue that would make or break my membership status in said guild, I would take it up with the GM and never would have posted here. I hope you read the part about the helm being only a "minor upgrade" and my desire for it resting in the set bonus and the cool look.

I am not here to scream "injustice!", I am here to share my story with others and I was curious if anyone else encountered a similar situation. I am still raiding with the same guild, and I have not even brought this up to one of them as an issue. Our loot rules involve an upgrade check, loot council, along with rolling, but as I said, our officers didn't give this item much thought.

Alas, not all loot systems are perfect, and I think that even with the many precautions my guild takes, there is always going to be a flaw, this situation is a testament to that, so what's the big deal?

Why come here lambasting me for sharing my experience? I'm not looking for sympathy, a new guild, or even the helm on this forum, i'm just sharing a story, is that too much for you to handle?


I didn't think anyone was crying, but theconfusedcaster was drunk posting in his response, which may work okay in the OT forum, but maybe not quite as well in a more logic-based discussion such as this one.

Pisces, should I have made my response to maladroit in the OT forums because I was drinking? Come on, lol. I merely explained why I was annoyed with maladroit when I posted that response.

[spadron]

Once again, this is wrong. Raid performance is almost always a factor in 25 man raids when a loot council is the one distributing loot. Attendance is also a big factor.

Not in this case, clearly :wink:

[Aerath]

Loot council = loot drama (in 90% of all cases).

Seems like this is a perfect example.

[piscene]

Pisces, should I have made my response to maladroit in the OT forums because I was drinking? Come on, lol. I merely explained why I was annoyed with maladroit when I posted that response.

Actually, what you did was accuse him of crying, which really made no sense whatsoever. He told you to 'get over it' and you replied by saying that he is crying? What? That, my friend, is OT.

I understood your initial post in the spirit in which it was intended, which is why I offered some advice that I though might be helpful. It was your follow up that steered this topic out of control.

[TheConfusedCaster]

Actually, what you did was accuse him of crying, which really made no sense whatsoever.

I understood your initial post in the spirit in which it was intended, which is why I offered some advice that I though might be helpful. It was your follow up that steered this topic out of control.

I was drinking, I repeat, I was drinking. I mean come on, this is the internet, people need thicker skin. Some........comes to my thread and starts talking crap about how I should just "deal with it" whilst overlooking the main point of the thread, and so my response, because I had a few drinks and told him to stop crying, somehow "steered it out of control"? If something like that is too much for one to handle i'd hate to see how they perform in real life.

[Burntmeat]

Drinkin´ is bad mmmkay?

[TheConfusedCaster]

Drinkin´ is bad mmmkay?

I should do a commercial, "Tired of forum trolls? Want to really say what you think about pointless responses? Have a shot or two, then hit the boards!" :D

[Felix Niebuhr]

Jealousy is such an ugly thing.

[TheConfusedCaster]

Jealousy is such an ugly thing.

I'm not really jealous. This specific warlock sounds like that cartoon character "Which way did he go george?" on vent, his spec looks like it was done by a child through fingerpaint, and his dps blows. We're moving onto T6 content and we're going to down vashj some more so i'm not wallowing in grief, it wasn't a huge upgrade, just looked cool and the set bonus rocks, it would've benefited the raid more if it went to me.

[det]

In reply to the question of the OP, no..I never had loot denied. We use dkp for 25 man and straight roll for 10 man. Also the 10 man groups are with friends 95% of the time and pretty consistent. People will pass or roll with common sense. Sometimes people have been embarressed that loot was "forced" upon them (otherwise it would have been sharded).
Maybe I am just a lucky guy, but in 2 years raiding there was very little "bad blood" in raids. Just now we took a a shadowpriest along who was a friend of a friend and with a lot of blue gear. She won Staff of infinite mysteries and was already very happy. Then the offhand from NB and Mindblade from prince. (because everybody else had it or better)

Seeing her so touched and leaving the raid very happy was a good feeling.

[Govadina]

That’s why I don’t go to parties since level 31, only BGs cause they are the most fun.

[det]

Cannot agree here...twinks, afkers, honor farmer, PuGs - unless you only do BGs with a team of friends.

[SirBazturd]

Loot success here.....

I afk for half of the raid. We kill the boss and I use my +1 to roll ring to beat out another warlock who busts his ass at raiding. New helm for me!!!!!!




Anyway...at some point everyone gets "screwed" for loot. It all depends on the point of view of the person who got it as opposed to the one who didn't. Even with DKP, I had a dude tell me "you are so lucky you are here to get those."

[moopy]

Seeing her so touched and leaving the raid very happy was a good feeling.

Yeah, we've done that quite a few times- lovely to see an alt totally pimped in one clear, or a friendof the guild.

We took a pally with us at one point, and tonnes of plate dropped plus other useful bits- but none of them the one or two items that people were there for (mindblade, gun from opera etc). She protested every time when we offered her more gear, none of the guildies needed it. It took some effort to quiet her protests and re-assure her that we didn't really need the void crystals- but I swear we geared her up with purples for every tree by the end. She had never seen past curator or so, and seemed to be having lots of fun. we had to work to reassure her that we didn't consider her healing output as a sign of "slacking", as she was trying defiantly to keep up with people wearing full tier 5. You have to admire her bloodymindedness.

I think it was a huge morale boost for everyone, for whom KZ is usually just a boring badge run- and our guest enjoyed seeing the instance cleared end-to-end with one-shots. Everyone came out happy.

[det]

To abreviate Karazhan as "KZ" is disquieting for me :shocked:

[moopy]

Me too, and I'm the one doing it!

It's all the fault of that old "can't pug KZ" video. I found myself doing it, saying KZ in the american manner (to rhyme with "lazy"). Gah!

Anyway, the video in question is pretty amusing, been posted here, but what the heck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnMRynchdTY

[mesonm]

well, my story is a "loot denied" story, but not one that occurs very frequently....and it only loosely qualifies as loot denied....

My guild does SSC, and is now on the last boss...Thus, my pally heals for raids. I've only been a member of the guild for two weeks, and have not gotten any loot from it. But that isn't where the story is....

In Kara this weekend, some of us were allowed to take alts, with the express understanding that mains > alts. I only wanted gloves for my mage, and of course an COMPLETELY pleased to have mains get loot first...np...Kara is fun, and I'm having a great time.

First drop...The gloves....I get them....WOOT!!! Next three drops, I get nothing...big deal...A trinket drops, and I get it...WOOT!

Pants drop (I think...) and I whisper the Raid leader the item that would be upgraded, with a note that says, "I've already gotten things, please give them to anyone else...".
The raid leader does indeed hand the item to someone else, and APOLOGIZES to me for not being able to give them to me....HUH? I was happy to be there, and have already received TWO items in kara.....and HE apologizes to ME.

Then, a random BOP drops, and its a Fire damage belt...He asks if anyone wants, and we say no, that we are all frost...He give it to me anyway, saying, "If you ever go fire, maybe this will come in handy...".

WOW....

[YamahaGuy]

Sorry OP I guess we've done the same thing =( but less of an item.

Lurker dropped the caster PVP ring with armor, spell damage and resilience. Its not a PVE worthy item really, and the officer system couldnt accomodate it or decide where it should go or "who deserved" a PVP item.

The best canidate imo (of course!) would have been my arena partner pally, since we actually DO arena for the SAKE of arena, and not just go lose 10 games a week to get some nice gear. But that would be A) Biased and B) obvious favoritism

There are a select few others I know love battlegrounds that I would have also been happy to see get it.

We decided to let casters/pallies who Arena / PVP to roll for the ring, and one of our worst contributing members who rarely shows, cant stay till end of the raid, doesnt log in on time for attendance, and hardly pvp's at all got it.

I saw the winning result and regretted agreeing to that decision, but once the roll was made, it would be even worse to "renig" on the decision.

It should have gone through the standard process, send tell for item, have your <name><tell> listed in o-chat, compared against "last loot" date, how many items this period, and verified required attendance rating.

So, we all learn I suppose.

[alliancefever]

two words HEALING PANTS!

[Illiana]

As a bit of background information, I am an active raider in a guild that currently has Mount Hyjal on farm and is missing the last 4 bosses in Black Temple.

I am attending 3 25 man raids per week (we do 4, I can't attend the raid on Sunday evening), and we use DKP. Somehow my warlock is still using the Spellstrike hood. It's a great tailored item, no doubt about that - but I really feel I ought to have gotten it upgraded by now.

We have always had the tendency to reschedule instance runs to Sunday evening as soon as we have the entire instance on farm. So when the time came when we killed Vashj, I got to attend 2 kills before the raid was rescheduled to Sunday - so no t5 token for me.

Now we have managed to kill Archimonde, and of course the Mount Hyjal raid is now moved to Sunday, so my chances of getting the t6 headpiece token are slim.

Mind that I am not complaining about the rescheduling, I am merely saying this to explain the reasons why I won't be getting my hands on a t5 or t6 headpiece token any time soon.

Anyways, the fifth boss in Zul Aman drops a great headpiece, Hood of Hexing, which would be a very big upgrade for me. Sure enough, it dropped for us the other day. I am overjoyed. The only other caster who could be interested in it is a shadowpriest, who does not raid at all but is a friend of the raidleader. We roll. I loose. Bye bye upgrade. :shocked:

I lost the roll fair and square, but it was still annoying as hell!

[Aerath]

Consider doing Arenas.

s3 hat should be a whopping upgrade over your current one.

[Morollan]

his spec looks like it was done by a child through fingerpaint

his spec was even similar to mine

Was your spec also done by a child through fingerpaint then?

[snowieken]

Was your spec also done by a child through fingerpaint then?He will probably claim that "similar" is the operative word here.

But I would still think you "pwned" him. :grin:

[Echosnare]

I think the only time its really happened to me was when we downed karathress in a guild i was in a while back. There were 2 mages who were bidding on the tier 5 legs against me. One deliberately bid low because the other had done the same on the VR head (they were RL friends) and i think there was an /o channel argument about whether I should be allowed to bid having been in said guild for 2 weeks. I Bid everything I had and I'd had 100% attendance. Next time T5 drops "could you please not roll so i can get set bonus". Its a joke, massive upgrades for me (still using blue legs to this day) and I was still raping them on the meters.

I think loot council systems dont work - the only thing that works is tiered DKP systems imo. If you raid the **** you can roll on the drops.

[Naolin]

we roll even in 25 man (3 bosses in SSC down and 2 in TK) never had any issues, Tanks have priority on gear (tanking gear) which is quite well normal I think seeing they are the most gear dependant guys/girls in the raid.
We do have a bit of an unwritten code, if you win an item and you roll on another item you need and there is another person rolling that needs it and didn't get anything yet you kindly pass (if you win the roll that is) works like a charm and does build some good team spirit tbh, to each his own I guess I played with DKP too which works fine too.

[irogue]

It's a game....you rolled, you lost. You're no more deserving than him, just because you're better at the game.

/QFT
/agree
/cheer

[TheConfusedCaster]

Was your spec also done by a child through fingerpaint then?

It's very obvious that you disagree with something i've said and are responding with this trivial straw in-lieu of an actual reply but I will respond nevertheless. His spec is similar to mine in the sense that he's specced in the same tree(s). However, his points are allotted in a very messy fashion. For example, talents half-filled that should be maxed out. More than one point in some talents that do not require such.


Snowieken wrote: He will probably claim that "similar" is the operative word here.

But I would still think you "pwned" him.

It's very obvious you are still seething from our past drama, i've left it behind, but if you'd like to drag it up here, i'm all for it. I was not "pwned" simply because a random detractor attempted to point out a technicality that I have now clarified. This troll-esque comment of "pwning" was unnecessary, I am smelling hypocrisy from the last time I was lambasted for using the term "pwned" etc.

[Morollan]

It's very obvious that you disagree with something i've said and are responding with this trivial straw in-lieu of an actual reply but I will respond nevertheless. His spec is similar to mine in the sense that he's specced in the same tree(s). However, his points are allotted in a very messy fashion. For example, talents half-filled that should be maxed out. More than one point in some talents that do not require such.

To be honest your whining about losing a perfectly random loot roll to someone you feel superior to doesn't really deserve a response so I just thought I'd point out the contradictory statement you made for a laugh. You know, for ****s and giggles.

[mesonm]

My guild went to SSC last knight, and killed five bosses...I was happily surprised to receive TWO pieces of gear....

To give you some background, we have only recently gotten this far, and have only killed bosses four and five twice.

These guys are the opposite of a gear denied story, at least for me. After I received the new tier 5 gloves, they enchanted them for me.

[Janfader]

That's one of the many reasons I don't Raid and don't do many instances any more.

100% agreed! Maybe one of the reasons why I'm starting to vent. I had been ripped (or felt ripped) off too many times now with my main. :wave: But, that's because I'm in the raid as a supporter (outsider).

[TheConfusedCaster]

To be honest your whining about losing a perfectly random loot roll to someone you feel superior to doesn't really deserve a response so I just thought I'd point out the contradictory statement you made for a laugh. You know, for ****s and giggles.

Nothing I said was contradicting. The fact you lack the mental acuity to differentiate "similar" and "exact" is not my problem. I already clarified that the little technicality you were picking at was nothing.

This thread is not a whine, it's an experience I felt like sharing as well as an invitation for others to do the same. If I wanted to "whine" I would bring it up with my guild, not a forum of strangers.

[Morollan]

Nothing I said was contradicting. The fact you lack the mental acuity to differentiate "similar" and "exact" is not my problem. I already clarified that the little technicality you were picking at was nothing. Snow - you were right.

This thread is not a whine, it's an experience I felt like sharing as well as an invitation for others to do the same. If I wanted to "whine" I would bring it up with my guild, not a forum of strangers.

I wouldn'tve cared, in fact, I love it when other members get gear as it helps our progression, but the problem was, this specific person sucked. Yes, that's right, they blew hard.

No one in the loot council had the common sense to realize this person did NOT need that gear

An entire Tier 5 helm lost, and my chances slimmed even narrower by my guilds aspirations to leave Tier 5 content for Hyjal once they down Kael.

have you ever seen complete noobs get gear that you knew you deserved?

No, not whining at all. Not in the slightest. But if you lack the mental acuity to recognise that in your own writing then that's not my problem.

[Baboon]

Raiding is not about getting items earlier then your guildies imo ;)

[TheConfusedCaster]

No, not whining at all. Not in the slightest. But if you lack the mental acuity to recognise that in your own writing then that's not my problem.

Nice job in proving that cutting and pasting out of context quotes in order to grasp at straws is not an argument/pwnage/proof of contradiction. How does posting bits and pieces of my story somehow prove that I am "whining"? A) The story was posted here to invoke a response via more stories from others with the same experience B) My guild has SSC on farm status so we will be killing vashj again C) I never expressed the incident to be a huge loss, in fact I stated it was only a minor upgrade.

So by posting my in-game raiding experiences here and asking others to do the same, I am somehow whining?

http://blogs.business2.com/photos/uncategorized/emperor.jpg

[Morollan]

My quotes were hardly out of context and yes you are whining. No matter how much you try to hide behind the "I just wanted to share my experiences" thing, it's a whine. Pure and simple. Some other guy got stuff that you think you're entitled to because you think you're a better player. Tough. Grow up and get over it.

[TheConfusedCaster]

My quotes were hardly out of context and yes you are whining. No matter how much you try to hide behind the "I just wanted to share my experiences" thing, it's a whine. Pure and simple. Some other guy got stuff that you think you're entitled to because you think you're a better player. Tough. Grow up and get over it.

It's very ironic here seeing as how you are accusing me of whining whilst whining about the alleged whining, pretty self-defeating huh? The fact remains that the purpose of this post was to share a story, and encourage others to do the same. As I said, if this was an issue/whine it would not be on these boards. Do you honestly think i'd take up a guild issue that's worth involving officers on the unofficial WoW forums before my own guild? I have not only proved that this is not a whine by clarifying my motives/intentions, but the threads' yielded results are also a testament to its purpose in the form of many people coming here and replying with their own stories.

I don't "think" i'm a better player in the story described here, I know I am. That may sound arrogant or egotistical, but i've played WoW from the day of its release and I can safely say I have enough experience to judge another players skill/performance in a raid environment.

Try again.

[Morollan]

Why would I waste my time arguing further with someone who is, by his own admission, arrogant and egotistical, and will therefore never ever accept that they may be wrong?

[TheConfusedCaster]

Why would I waste my time arguing further with someone who is, by his own admission, arrogant and egotistical, and will therefore never ever accept that they may be wrong?

I said that my statement may "sound" arrogant and egotistical whilst clarifying that it was merely the result of an experienced observation. How is that an admission? Would you like a barrel of hay to go with that strawman argument? Is this the same flawed logic that makes sharing a story somehow a "whine"?

[Morollan]

Your own posts confirm your arrogance and ego. It comes across very clearly in your writing. The content of your story confirms that it's actually a whine, as very clearly shown by the quotes that I made, entirely within context, in my earlier post.

[TheConfusedCaster]

Your own posts confirm your arrogance and ego. It comes across very clearly in your writing. The content of your story confirms that it's actually a whine, as very clearly shown by the quotes that I made, entirely within context, in my earlier post.

Your quotes were not only out of context, but they also mis-portrayed the purpose of my post. You conveniently skipped over the fact this piece was not important to me, along with the main idea of the post in order to cherry pick my words into your own false presumptions.

If a player is performing poorly on the DPS charts to the point where they are playing a main DPS class and are being outdpsed by almost everyone in the raid whilst their gear is not an issue and they show lack of knowledge by making their talent allotment a mess, I can safely say they do indeed "suck at WoW". This isn't "egotistical" or "arrogant", it is merely an experienced observation, and this same player can improve in the future if he puts effort into it.

My story, again, is not a request for pity or an attempt to "whine", it is a shared experience that is being used to encourage others to share their own experiences. You can "whine" that i'm "hiding" behind this reasoning all you like, but it's the main idea of my post.

[Morollan]

Your frequent references to this individual as a 'moron'. Your comments that they 'suck'. That they are a 'noob'. That their spec is childish. That they have a comical voice.

Your oft-stated opinion that you are a superior player. Your comment that someone dared to wander into 'your thread' and 'start talking crap'. The idea that being a better player somehow entitles you to loot that someone else won under the system that was in place in your guild and that had presumably been agreed to before hand.

You still deny being arrogant?

Anyway, what was initially meant to be a light-hearted comment appears to have pricked your ego greatly and the thread has now dissolved into nothing but ad hominem argument - for which I apologise to the moderators for my part in - so I'm out of here.

[TheConfusedCaster]

Your frequent references to this individual as a 'moron'. Your comments that they 'suck'. That they are a 'noob'. That their spec is childish. That they have a comical voice.

My observation of their low level of intelligence and comical voice are personal observations whilst my observations of their gameplay (the observations that lead me to the conclusion that their gear acquisition did not benefit the raid) were based on experience.


Your oft-stated opinion that you are a superior player.

My frequent mention of my own skill as compared to this individual was not stated for an ego boost, but strictly used as a gaming comparison, which also relates to the topic of who could most utilize the gear in question.


Your comment that someone dared to wander into 'your thread' and 'start talking crap'.

I know I am not immune to forum trolls coming here to flame me because they have nothing better to do, but I am more than happy to respond, as you can see here :)


The idea that being a better player somehow entitles you to loot that someone else won under the system that was in place in your guild and that had presumably been agreed to before hand.

Incorrect, being a better player as a DPS class in comparison to another DPS class entails that I will do more DPS than said person, thus overall raid progression would benefit from my possession of the item rather than an individual getting it whom is denied a raid spot due to their low dps.

If you took the time to actually read my post instead of trying to find loopholes that aren't there, you'd notice that I mentioned my guilds loot policy failing as the council is made up of mostly tanks/healers and the T5 helm was a non-issue. It still is a non-issue, as I clarified that it was a minor upgrade and I will have many more chances to obtain it.

You still deny being arrogant?

I fail to see how my observations in this regard make me "arrogant" by your standards.


Anyway, what was initially meant to be a light-hearted comment appears to have pricked your ego greatly and the thread has now dissolved into nothing but ad hominem argument - for which I apologise to the moderators for my part in - so I'm out of here.

A specific mod that I have a bad history with used your comment as ammunition against me, thus I responded. The ad-hominem started in the form of calling me a "whiner"/stating allegations of "whining"/"pwned", and the rest fell in place.

[Dhoum]

All I'm hearing now is "wah wah wah wah wah!"

With a side-order of whine.

Confused, you are upset because people are suggesting that you should either complain to your guild or keep quiet. You lost a roll, life sucks, deal with it. Leave your guild, terminate your account, whatever ... but reading about it is becoming boring, so keep it to yourself eh?

[TheConfusedCaster]

All I'm hearing now is "wah wah wah wah wah!"

With a side-order of whine.

Confused, you are upset because people are suggesting that you should either complain to your guild or keep quiet. You lost a roll, life sucks, deal with it. Leave your guild, terminate your account, whatever ... but reading about it is becoming boring, so keep it to yourself eh?

"People"? You are and Morol are two of the very few people who have came here with negative comments, the majority have been positive and others have shared their stories as well. I'll ask you to take your own advice, if you don't like it, don't read it. No one forced you to click on this thread or read my topic, you weren't "rick rolled" to this point, lmao.

Going off on some big rant on how I should quit WoW or get mad at my guild when I already said it was a minor upgrade that i'll have a ton of chances on again shows you need to re-read my post.

[maladroit2000]

"People"? You are and Morol are two of the very few people who have came here with negative comments, the majority have been positive and others have shared their stories as well. I'll ask you to take your own advice, if you don't like it, don't read it. No one forced you to click on this thread or read my topic, you weren't "rick rolled" to this point, lmao.

Going off on some big rant on how I should quit WoW or get mad at my guild when I already said it was a minor upgrade that i'll have a ton of chances on again shows you need to re-read my post.

Erm, you are staying in your guild after this? You're asking for it to happen again..

[TheConfusedCaster]

Erm, you are staying in your guild after this? You're asking for it to happen again..

Yeah i'm staying in my guild after this. "This" was not a big deal. I don't know what part of "minor upgrade" you don't understand. This was not a whine or an attempt to declare "injustice!", it was the story of a raiding event, it happens quite frequently in even the best guilds, and I was wondering if anyone had similar stories.

[maladroit2000]

Yeah i'm staying in my guild after this. "This" was not a big deal. I don't know what part of "minor upgrade" you don't understand. This was not a whine or an attempt to declare "injustice!", it was the story of a raiding event, it happens quite frequently in even the best guilds, and I was wondering if anyone had similar stories.

You spend several paragraphs saying the person who won the loot "sucked", "blew hard", is "a moron" and a "noob", among other unpleasantries. This is major whining. You clearly had no real interest in hearing about other peoples' stories - you made the post solely to tell us about what happened.

I repeat, get over it! :grin:

[TheConfusedCaster]

You spend several paragraphs saying the person who won the loot "sucked", "blew hard", is "a moron" and a "noob", among other unpleasantries. This is major whining. You clearly had no real interest in hearing about other peoples' stories - you made the post solely to tell us about what happened.

I repeat, get over it! :grin:

My remarks on the person involved are in no way correlated to the purpose of this post. The sole motivating factor for the creation of this post was to encourage others to post similar stories. If I didn't have an interest in other stories, I would not have posted here.

I repeat, there is nothing to get over :)

[piscene]

Good lord, can we just lock this nit-picky *****-fest already? This is ridiculous.

[Twoflower]

it was the story of a raiding event, it happens quite frequently in even the best guilds.

not realy. good guilds have good organisation, and therefore a good loot system. IMO your loot system leads to complicated dramas, which is somethig a good guild leader would prevent.

[RioteR]

I've never seen quotation marks used so much in my life. I'm imagining a bunch of middle-aged balding fat guys arguing in nasally nerdy voices and doing the quotation marks thing with their two fingers every 5 seconds.

Its actually quite comical.

[TheConfusedCaster]

I've never seen quotation marks used so much in my life. I'm imagining a bunch of middle-aged balding fat guys arguing in nasally nerdy voices and doing the quotation marks thing with their two fingers every 5 seconds.

Its actually quite comical.

I'm 21 fyi, and my gf says my voice is hot ;)

[maladroit2000]

I've never seen quotation marks used so much in my life.

Try reading a book?

[selone_orc]

As a reply to the original point theres always going to be 'loot issues' whether using /rand, loot council, dkp( bidding and fixed) etc. I've been in dkp guilds and now lead a loot council guild, it has flaws, but so does dkp. We haven't had that much loot drama but it does happen(and did with dkp). The feeling or belief that using dkp solves drama I heavily contest, lots of guilds have qualifiers to dkp whether it be the one with the most dkp wins and then a but (but not if its a main tank or whatever and the but causes the issue)
A resto druid getting 2.5 in aq 40 was one of the 'loot travesties' i remember mainly because it had been agreed that dps would get prio and then they reversed that decision mid loot.

[sparklebunny]

There is no good way to do it...what works for one guild doesn't work for another. My guild is made up of like-minded people who formed our guild from our previous one because we wanted to raid and see endgame and the focus of the original guild was of a more social aspect. Thus many of us knew each other either in game for a long time or were RL friends.

We have a simple system that works as we have Gruul's on farm and are working on Mags and have our eyes set on SSC and beyond. We have a requirement of 66% attendance, that puts you in tier 2 if you make it, tier 1 if you don't. If a tier item drops those in tier 2 roll and the winner gets it. If no one from tier 2 can use it then the tier 1 guys get it. This rewards attendance. Other non-tier items are free for whomever can use.

In our KZ runs we tend to lean towards mains. However my friends and I have several 70 alts and will run them with some mains from our guild. I brought my hunter in the other day and an item dropped that one of our rogues could use. Since he was a main and I was not on my shaman I passed to him. That tends to be the general consensus and works well. I am sure we will have our issues but I consider myself lucky that we have not had a lot of drama. Most of us are here to see the content and get better gear, but also see our friends do as well. Many a time there is "are you sure you don't want it?". It is nice to see.

And to the poster who noted they brought friends in and helped I have had that occasion as two friends of mine from my old guild (who cannot devote the time to raid) came with us on an alt run of KZ and got gear and it was a) awesome to see them get it and b) let them see the whole place. One of them I have known two years and seeing him get his paladin helm was as exciting as when I got my shaman helm.

[Cembrelise]

I'm at 53 right now.

Looks like I have a lot to look forward to . . . ehhh

/sigh

[Marlous]

I just experienced my own little hair-tearing 'loot denied' event.. please hear me out and let me know if I'm justified in my thinking. Either way, I just need to rant a bit. :weep:

Maraudon, 4 people. Myself (49 Dwarf Rogue), bf (50 Gnome Mage), friend and guildleader V (70 Human Mage), and D (48 Human Paladin), who is V's neighbour and also in our guild.

It's a run from hell. The three guys use VoiceChat, I don't because I don't have a headset available. The bf is sitting a few feet away so I can half hear what people say - if I strain my ears - and am half understood if I yell something over my shoulder. Not ideal, especially if you have people who aren't listening to you. Especially when you've been telling them a hundred times to no avail that no, the 1st Khan isn't in the middle of Maraudon, he's at the beginning - and no, we won't reach the purple section if we go down there, we need to go up this ramp - and no, you need to FILL the vial first at the ORANGE section before you can start healing those plants! Ergh.

So, the group is an unorganised mess. We've got a mage who thinks he's so good that he can boost us and doesn't wait for all of us to be done with the mana break - he just goes on ahead. I don't need MBs so I help out, but it always ends up with him blowing away all his mana and needing - yet another! - drink, slowing the whole party down. However, sometimes he doesn't seem to manage and then it comes to the paladin to heal.. except that he is so preoccupied with fighting that he forgets to heal. We get 2 wipes before we even finished the orange section, and he's had to ressurrect all three of us at least once (including the 70 mage). I'm lucky to have vanish and a few healing pots, or I'd have died at least 3 times.

Okay, so here comes the crucial bit. Suddenly a Flurry Axe drops. It's the first epic (purple is epic, right?) item I've seen drop since I started playing, and it's a BoE to boot! Whoa! Auctioneer says that it's worth well over 300g on my server, so I'm sitting there with my jaw dropping on the keyboard. Wanting to make sure that this is being done fairly, I want to discuss it with the rest. Just as I'm about to turn around to the bf, I see the paladin press need. o.O

While I can understand that a paladin uses a one-handed axe, and that it's a pretty damn nice weapon to use, I'm fuming. He's been needing one-handed maces, two-handed axes, and two-handed maces left right and center, so it's not as if he's in dire need of an upgrade. But what irks me more, is that he never bothered to ask. Okay, it's a guild run. And as far as armour goes, we have no competition there. But it's a freakin' BoE, and worth hundreds of gold!

The rest of the instance is ruined for me, and it doesn't help that he also lets us run all through the orange section again because he's positive that the Khans respawn and don't require an instance reset. The bf gets miffed because I'm grumbling about D's nerve, and after we're finally done (after 5 ungodly hours, I must add) we both had it up to here.

Any thoughts, please? I'm thinking of never doing an instance with D again, just like I would've done with anyone else. I'd even put him on /ignore if he wasn't in my guild (it's a very small one, more a bit of a friends' club). Plus, he's the neighbour (and apparently friend) of V, who is in turn our friend. I wouldn't want to offend V just because I feel wronged about a stupid axe. But I'm grinding my teeth so hard that I almost need dentures.

[Burntmeat]

I'm at 53 right now.

Looks like I have a lot to look forward to . . . ehhh

/sigh

I have atually seen more loot drama during leveling, than during endgame. More ninja´ing, whining etc.

[TheConfusedCaster]

The paladin in question is already guilty of violating standard loot procedures by hitting need without prior discussion. All items (rare and above) should be rolled for according to need, and passed upon from the beginning. It sounds like your encounter was lacking a great deal of communication (although that probably falls in with the physical lack of communication via not having access to a headset). While it's true that the paladin was the only player who could use the axe, it still should have been discussed.

[Zachariah]

I disagree strongly on this - where rare BoE drops are concerned, especially with people you don't know so well, EVERYONE should need.

The reason is simple: Everybody needs gold, and that's what those rare drops are. If you're going to use the item personally, then it represents gold you saved now you don't have to buy it. For everyone else it's gold from selling it which you can then spend on a different choice item. The fact that one or more of the party members will actually wield/wear it straight away is irrelevant.

And everyone should definitely NEED, not greed, which prevents someone accidentally pressing need (yes...it was an accident...honest...).

So in Marlous' situation above, the drama would simply have been avoided by she and everyone else following the pala and pressing 'need' as well, as you have just as much a right to that gold as he did.

This is not applicable to Guild raids, obviously - there, you just have to trust that your loot master makes a responsible decision. Case in point, Magtheridon dropped the healing shield I had been lusting after for weeks, but since I had the Light Bearer's Faith shield our healadin got it even though he was inexplicably carrying an almost-as-good caster dps shield. I felt bad because it seemed like he was being rewarded for not having optimal gear, but the raid is better off for it and I get first dibs on subsequent drops.

[Illiana]

Whenever something blue or purple drops when I am in a pug, the first thing I do is check if it's Bind on Pickup or Bind on Equip. If it's BoE, I will always hit need. If other people accidentily picked greed and don't get to roll, I'll happily let them do a /roll afterwards, so they still get their shot at the free cash. It's the only way to prevent stuff from getting ninja-ed.

In guildruns though, I'd have hit greed. Then again, my guild members would have all hit greed as well, so we'd all be rolling for the free cash regardless. :wink:

[piscene]

I think it all comes down to communication. There isn't really a right or wrong way to do it, there is just the method that the party has aggreed upon for this particular instance. Especially when it comes to guild runs, there should be guidelines set up on how to handle this type of situation.

Honestly, I may have handled the situation just like the pally figuring that its an item I can use, I am going to need it. But then again, I almost never look to see if its BOE or BOP. I think I'll start noticing now.

[TheConfusedCaster]

I disagree strongly on this - where rare BoE drops are concerned, especially with people you don't know so well, EVERYONE should need.

The reason is simple: Everybody needs gold, and that's what those rare drops are. If you're going to use the item personally, then it represents gold you saved now you don't have to buy it. For everyone else it's gold from selling it which you can then spend on a different choice item. The fact that one or more of the party members will actually wield/wear it straight away is irrelevant.

By using this logic, we can also conclude that every rare/epic in every instance (even 25 mans) represents "gold" as it can be disenchanted into a profit even if it isn't BoE. Everyone needs gold, but we don't run instances for gold (unless you're doing the heroic daily), we run them for items, and that is the objective. If a player who contributed to the acquisition of that item by investing his time in the group could use it as an upgrade, it should rightfully go to him/her, even if it's a BoE green. If more than one player sees it as an upgrade, they should then roll off, but this should always be based on need, not greed or gold.

The fact that a party member will actually use/wield the gear instantly is not irrelevant at all, especially if you're in a guild and that users need-based acquisition contributes to the efficiency and overall strength of the guild itself for future runs.

And everyone should definitely NEED, not greed, which prevents someone accidentally pressing need (yes...it was an accident...honest...).

Some guilds who trust each other use this method, but in PuGs, the rule has always been to greed roll green BoEs and pass on all BoE/BoP epics/rares. This has been the case ever since Scholomance was considered "phat lewt".

So in Marlous' situation above, the drama would simply have been avoided by she and everyone else following the pala and pressing 'need' as well, as you have just as much a right to that gold as he did.

The problem in Marious's situation was not necessarily the undesired outcome, but rather the various flaws in planning that lead to said outcome. There was no pre-established loot system, and if there was, it was not communicated efficiently. The Paladin was the only person who could use the item and would have morethanlikely received it anyway, however, the issue resides in the paladins handling of the situation via smashing the need button when most people passed.

The class specific need for an item will always come before the greed or gold potential of an item, this is why we don't DE every piece that drops just because it could possibly yield gold.


This is not applicable to Guild raids, obviously - there, you just have to trust that your loot master makes a responsible decision.

In the above examples I also explained why it was not applicable to guild raids, or even 5 man guild-runs. But this does not give one the excuse to disenfranchise and shaft a contributing party member by taking something he/she can use and greeding it for gold.

[Zachariah]

I was only referring to pugs, which is why I said "This is not applicable to Guild Raids". In pugs, you have no idea what the other people will do. You might have cast-iron pre-arranged rules which everyone has agreed to, and STILL someone decides to be an asshole and need an item when everyone else has greeded.

My system eliminates this possibility and makes sure nobody feels uncertain about what to do in the rare chances there is a BoE epic drop. Where it's BoP you just have to hope that when an item you genuinely need drops and you're the only one who can use it, that nobody decides to be an asshole and rolls need on it too. Once again, for clarity, this is for PUGS only.

In a raid, there will be a master looter and these problems won't arise. In 5-man guild runs there will (or should be) friendly concensus on who gets what.

[TheConfusedCaster]

I was only referring to pugs, which is why I said "This is not applicable to Guild Raids". In pugs, you have no idea what the other people will do. You might have cast-iron pre-arranged rules which everyone has agreed to, and STILL someone decides to be an asshole and need an item when everyone else has greeded.

My system eliminates this possibility and makes sure nobody feels uncertain about what to do in the rare chances there is a BoE epic drop. Where it's BoP you just have to hope that when an item you genuinely need drops and you're the only one who can use it, that nobody decides to be an asshole and rolls need on it too. Once again, for clarity, this is for PUGS only.

In a raid, there will be a master looter and these problems won't arise. In 5-man guild runs there will (or should be) friendly concensus on who gets what.

When I do pugs I usually state the rules beforehand and wait for them to be agreed upon. I think if it's stated beforehand that if a BoP epic drops, it will be rolled for, there will be no confusion.

[Marlous]

I think that the suggestion to roll all need when it's a valuable epic item is one I'll take to heart - I should've pressed need just like the pally and have a face-off. But when I talked with V (the guild leader) on the phone the day after and told him of my rage the night before, he said that it was just how that guy was. He appreciated that I didn't say anything because he didn't want to start a fight with his neighbour, but he understood my annoyance and frustration. He himself was miffed about D not healing when he should have, costing V some 13g repair costs because of him dying.

In a pug I try to agree on loot distribution beforehand, but 90% of the time I'm among people who are glad to have a full group and rush in without discussing anything. If I stay behind because I want to discuss stuff I either won't be answered, or people are like, 'yeah whatever'. That annoys me, and I've sometimes given up and just went ahead, hoping that there wouldn't be any blue BoE drop.

I almost wish there were standard loot rules, that applied to anyone in general (should they decide otherwise amongst themselves).. it would make WoW life so much easier. :tongue: