Need opinions on Moroes

[Beruen]

First, apologies if I should have necro'ed one of the other Moroes threads instead of starting another one, but most people got past this point a long time ago, so it would be some rather severe necro'ing.

My guild has just started running Kara this last weekend. We're not the best players, but we've got some competent players. We've got people that have raided before, but not many that have raided Kara before, and noone has ever tanked or lead the raid, so we're a little weak on practical knowledge. Some of us are very well geared for non-raiders, some of us could use some work.

We had 2 tanks (both prot warriors), 4 healers, and 8 DPS, and at any time, we had one healer and three DPSers benched. As far as pure DPS, all the DPSers pulled their weight, as violation listed the worst at 430 DPS, and the best at 700-1000 depending on the fight (not counting AoE fights, a holy priest doing 2000+ DPS AoEing undead doesn't count). We were more melee heavy than I was comfortable with, with one DPS warrior and three rogues compared to a hunter, two mages, and an elemental shaman.

Attumen went well the first time we did it with our game faces on. We wiped on the first attempt for two reasons. First, we couldn't keep everyone focused enough to down Attumen before the trash started respawning (stupid things like rogues that couldn't NOT scout ahead and draw aggro, etc.), so one of the spectral horses spawned and added at the start of the fight. Second, our MT didn't pick up on the clues that Attumen had spawned, so Attumen was ganking healers before he realized what was going on. Second attempt went smoothly, we didn't use a charge soaker and just healed through the charges.

Moroes was a totally different story. We got Moroes down to 7% on the second attempt, but never got him below 40% on several subsequent attempts. Wipes usually started with "Moroes gouges MT, blinds OT, ganks healer." We did have a wipe that went "Moroes gouges MT, blinds MT healer, ganks OT healer." Oddly enough, garrote was almost a non-issue, as our healers tend to be on the ball players, even when we lost one of the three healers. Where losing healers hurt was on shackles.

We're going to be trying Kara again this weekend, and I'd appreciate some feedback on the two issues we saw on Moroes. The first, as you might guess, is how to deal with the gouge/blind issue. I think we need our druid or paladin (we've got two holy priests, holy paladin, and resto druid for healers, and we bench one at a time so we don't displace DPSers) on the Moroes MT, so that we have a better chance of getting blind removed before we lose a healer. I've heard people that swear that having the OT facing 90 degrees away from Moroes lets him still hit Moroes but not get gouged, and I've heard people swear that that doesn't work. The OT is usually trying to tank one of the guests near Moroes as well, and we don't have a third tank unless we call on ex-guildies that are still friends.

The other issue is the guests. We had both healers, the MS warrior, and the Ret paladin as guests, and there's some debate on which to shackle in this case (even in the guildes I've read). The warrior and ret paladin don't go down fast and are dangerous. The healers go down the fastest, they're both capable of dispelling shackle, and the paladin healer can bubble. Because of this, we decided to try to keep the healers shackled to prevent them from dispelling the shackles. Given the lineup we had, was there a better way to deal with this? Even with two mages I don't think we could have kept one healer at a time counterspelled long enough to kill her without her breaking shackles. I'm still thinking that may be the way to go, and just plan on having the priests reshackle as needed.

I'm not sure what the specs of the rogues are, though I've heard that with the right spec, the healers can be stunlocked.

So, any advice? Sadly, the elemental shaman, one of our best DPSers, won't be with us this weekend.

[RWGreen]

The blind/gouge thing shouldn't happen very often. If the OT is calling out "blind," and it is dispelled relatively quickly, there should be a very small chance that a gouge will happen at the same time. I believe that the blind always goes on the 2nd person on threat. If that's not the case, someone can correct me. That's been my experience though.

As far as the adds go, kill the ones that go down the fastest. The clothies die easiest followed by the ret pally. Pull anyone who can dispell the shackles away from the shackles and you'll have no problems. All the adds are stunnable which is important. The shadow priest's mana burn can be a pain.

The arms warrior can also be a pain. He seems to always break shackles early. Got to re-up the shackles a lot with him.

Good luck. As with most fights, experience is the biggest key.

[dwarfenhelm]

easiest way to deal with moroes is to take a dps warrior with tank gear or a feral druid in bear form. then have that person off tank the adds get the 2 casters shackled then use hunter to chain trap 1 of the other harder hitting adds. use 3rd tank to then work way through every single add and all raid dps the adds down. if your main tank has good gear then get your off tank to pull moroes and main tank to pull the prot war add (or any other melee add) then mt tanks moroes at same time as cleaving and thunder clapping the 2nd to him through the fight when moroes vanishes shield slam the add for a bit extra threat. this way 2nd tank on moroes has tons incoming rage and can keep loads of threat on moroes.
as to having blind/gouge on both tanks at same time it is very rare for that to happen and you need the tanks healer on the ball to dispel it. having a dwarf tank really helps but its not needed.
we run kara with 2 pala healers and 1 hunter in group rest are all dps class's and you will find after hes been killed 2 or 3 times you wont worry about shackles soon but until then bring a good 3rd tank along to help cc

[Aerath]

You'll always want the MS warrior shackled. Unless you don't run any priest.

He's the single most dangerous add you can have. MS on your tank when Moroes enrages is hurting. He can one-shot healers. He'll probably whirlwind in the middle of your raid etc etc.

If you have two shackles, the Retadin is a good second choice. He hurts, dispells and stuns. None of those are fun. He's a decent option for traps too.

If you are lucky and get the Prot Warrior, just have your off-tank handle him. In between Vanishes he can be killed. He mostly tickles anyway, though the disarm might make him a nuisance on a Warrior tank. Ferals couldn't care less. One advantage is that he'll break the Gouge/Blind as well by tickling your tank.

If you get the healers, just have the priests be careful about the shackles and don't stand near 'em (the shackles that is, not the healer adds). Earthbind / Frost Trap / Tank Aggro on 'em will help keep your healers alive.

Rogues can 'off-tank' (and I use the word in its broadest sense) the two priest adds through stuns and evasion.

I've been there with only a single crowd control (well, I've been there without, but that's not the point I'm trying to make) and if I had to chose, I'd put it on the MS warrior every single time.

[djboss]

[Attumen note: Have everyone get within a few yards of Attumen in the mounted phase, and there should be no more charges]

For Moroes, I'm mostly going to echo the other comments.

CC prioirty list: MS Warror -> Ret Pally -> Holy Pally -> Holy Priest/Shadow Priest. I never CC the Prot warrior, he is a (slight) rage assist for the off-tank.

My kill order is basically the reverse of the above. SPriest over Holy, due to mana burn.

If you have a BM Hunter, their pet can tank the adds. I've also had the main tank pick them up along with Moroes. Can also use a frost mage to 'kite-tank' them.

A 'trick' that may help next week: Send someone in pre-raid and check the adds - I have used Mind Vision or one of the engineering toys (Tonks?) in the past - if you don't like what you get, then leave and reform the raid with another leader. You'll get a new raid ID, and new adds. I generally used to do this with just one other in the raid, and then once happy, would do full raid invites.

Something that might help *this* week: A soft reset changes the adds. Leave the zone for 30 minutes and you get new adds, so you could go in early and see what you have. If you like them, just hang out in the zone until raid time - otherwise, leave for a while, then try again.

Eventually you won't need to play these games, but when getting that first kill there is no need to make it any harder than it has to be.

Good luck - Moroes hangs a lot of guilds up early on. You'll get him, and within a few weeks actually start enjoying the fight :wink:

[Phaerix]

It almost sounds like you have too much healing...but hard to give up healers.

We generally do the following.

First, prioritize the targets -

Von'Indi
BeryyBuck
Millstipe
Drueger
Daris
Ference (last to be considered, as he's easier just to tank than kill)

Based on your usual makeup, you have two priests. Shackle the two worst targets. Keep them shackled. The shackles break very quickly, so our priests usually reshackle every 10 seconds or so.

So, you are now down to Moroes + 2.

If you have a hunter, trap the second threat target. DPS down the primary target, then switch to the secondary target. Once they are both down, keep the shackles up, and focus on Moroes.

We generally setup on the middle of the table facing Moroes. Moroes is pulled to the left side (over to where the two Valet's were) and the Trap target is pulled to the right (to where Valet's were). Healers generally stay in the middle of the table. Any spare hunter traps (after the trapped target is killed) are put between the shackles and the priests.


If you are shackling Dreuger, use a non-healing priest, and have them spam the shackle constantly - the instant stun is guaranteed to hit before you reshackle cast time finishes.


Ference can be easily off-tanked - but he should be treated as a second target, the MT and OT should maintain #1 and #2 on the threat list at all times - smack him a couple times, then use cleaves to keep some threat on him. Use the Moroes Vanish time to build a bit of extra threat to protect the healers. One healer should be prepared to clear the blind if it gets applied - have the OT call it out. Gouge + Blind can be ugly - but a rogue or mage at #3 usually buys you some time (vanish, evasion,invis, blink).

Sometimes you get a poor selection of baddies - 3 melees gets ugly. But usually, with two clothies and two melees, it should be straight forward.

Arguably the worst group is Berrybuck, Millstipe, Daris and Drueger. Daris and Dreuger will massacre clothies - Berry cleanses shackles and traps, and Millstipe burns your casters mana (and seems to love healers).

Once Moroes is down, you have a choice. You can individually burn down the remaining Adds (they generally go down pretty quick) or you can pull one of them out of the doorway (either side) and they will despawn. We usually pull them out because it's quicker - just have the tank walk backwards and kite the mob through the door.

[YamahaGuy]

Once everyone understands this fight well, you'll find you can do the whole thing sometimes with no CC or even 1 cc and it doesnt really matter.

They can be stunned. While you burn the first two. Got a rogue? Tell the rogue to "keep the skull locked up". Got a dps warrior? A bear? A paladin who can stun them?

Just burn two down nice n quick then move on to moroes.

You got 3 healers; so put 2 on tanks and 1 on the raid / garote. Lots of class/race can get out of garote or be BoPed out

Nitpick your priests about standing next to their shackled mob. It happens WAY to often.

Have your MT and OT shield slam the shackle mobs and or burn mobs, then shackle them and or burn. This saves you a lot of grief over lost healers.

Always approach it in this manner

Shield slam the burn adds or shackle targets.
Then tanks focus moroes.
DPS burns two ads down.
DPS Move to moroes.
DPS anything 'offtanked' while hes vanished.

Use these rules for your strategy

If get Shadow priest - Burn down
If get Holy priest - Burn down
If get Ret pally - Burn, CC or offtank if you really have to
If get Prot warrior - CC or offtank
If get MS warrior - Always CC

Following those rules, any four combination produces its own solution.

[Aerath]

Sunders build threat without doing damage.
Your tank can build threat with a Sunder-Mouseover-macro without ruining a shackle.

Do tell 'em to be mindful about Thunderclaps/Swipe near shackles though.

[Beruen]

Nitpick your priests about standing next to their shackled mob. It happens WAY to often.

Worse, the first try, the priests (I'm one of them) were told to pull the targets off to the left and then shackle them so they would be out of the way. And I got to shackle Daris. Yes, I was dead before I could cast shackle (he kept pushing back the cast, very frustrating). Other than that, both of us were rather on the ball about not standing too close to any mobs, CCed or otherwise.

I had to convince people that since the guests don't respond immediately to Moroes getting pulled, the priests could start to cast shackle when they hear the tank's gun cock, and get the spell off before they've gone anywhere. That worked well enough.

I realized afterward that we didn't tell the paladin that the blind was a poison and could be cleansed (the druid sat out Moroes) and that keeping the MT/OT unblinded was as important as it was. I still think that was our biggest problem, and I think making that point will help a lot this week.

I'm hoping to get both healers, the prot warrior, and any of the others as a fourth, I think given our lineup we can handle that. Shackle the other and one healer, OT the prot warrior, burn the unshackled healer, then burn the shackled healer, switching the prot warrior to shackle status. Without needing the hunter to trap anything, we can drop a trap between the shackles and the priests to give us more time to react.

Sunders build threat without doing damage.
Your tank can build threat with a Sunder-Mouseover-macro without ruining a shackle.

Do tell 'em to be mindful about Thunderclaps/Swipe near shackles though.

Ooh, excellent point, I didn't know that you could use sunders that way. These are the kinds of tricks we need to learn. I knew that distracting shot had the same effect, but I didn't know that the warriors had something that would do the same.

[Geboran]

Instead of shackling, you could bring two Holy specc'd paladins and have them chain fear using their Fear Undead ability on non-shackled adds. They can also stun them temporarily before re-fearing them.

Two paladins = two removals of Garrotes from clothies (and their Divine Shield for Garrotes that happen on them).

It's pretty common to burn two (2) adds before focusing on getting Moroes killed while keeping the other (2) adds either shackled/chain feared/stunned.

[Aerath]

No need to switch shackles.

Moroes vanishes every so often - just take out the prot warrior when he's gone.
Just saves ya from standing around looking stoopid for 10-15 seconds.

[Beruen]

Well, two slight changes. One of the guildies that pays attention to the patch notes thinks that Moroes blind isn't cleansable anymore. I know that regular rogue blind was changed to a physical attack a few patches ago, but I haven't checked to see if that changed it's cleansability. Can anyone confirm this one way or another? I'd hate to harangue the other two healers about cleansing blind if it's not cleansable anymore.

The other thing is that we won't be rotating healers this weekend, the other priest went shadow, so we're down to priest/paladin/druid. A good thing in my opinion, since we didn't have one before, and our 7% wipe was because I went OOM, if I remember correctly, though it does mean that our one run for the week is getting capped at 4 hours. We were in Kara almost 5.5H in one sitting last weekend, and as the one healer that didn't get rotated out, my nerves were shot for the whole weekend (old fart, not used to needing to focus that intently on entertainment for that long).

[clevins]

Pretty much what Yamaha said. Kill one or both casters. Shackle 2, chain trap 1 if you only killed one at the start of the fight. Have moroes being tanked away from the CCed mobs so tanks can use Thunderclap, rogues can Blade flurry etc.

If he gouges and blinds the tanks, well.... Some classes can deal with it (rogues and evasion, priest and PW:S). Casters should be away from him - that extra second might allow the gouged player to recover him. Or not, and someone dies.

[djboss]

One of the guildies that pays attention to the patch notes thinks that Moroes blind isn't cleansable anymore. I know that regular rogue blind was changed to a physical attack a few patches ago, but I haven't checked to see if that changed it's cleansability. Can anyone confirm this one way or another? I'd hate to harangue the other two healers about cleansing blind if it's not cleansable anymore.

When I tanked it last weekend, I know for a fact that it was cleansed off of me, and when I healed the fight earlier this week, I don't recall the tanks complaining about it ever sticking around for nearly the full duration.

[Shellar]

If your MT is a warrior or a bear, your best option is, indeed, to ensure that a) no one surpasses him *and* the OT on the threat meter and b) Blinds are cleansed/abolished immediately. Apart from that, just hope that your tanks are the first ones to get Garotted (DoT ticks break gouge/blind).

(A paladin MT completely trivializes the gouge issue by recasting Blessing of Sacrifice on the OT)

[Beruen]

Thanks for the advice all. We managed to keep our game-faces on for Attumen and Moroes, and while we slipped a little on Maiden, we got it back on and got her down. Flush in our victory, we headed off to the opera. Lets just say Roar fed well tonight :grin:

[clevins]

Roar is a fun event. The key things are to run AT ONCE when you're REd Riding Hood and to run along the wall. People cut corners (usually in front of the partial wall prop in the back right corner) and that gets you killed. Rogues can Vanish and hunters can FD but they have to stay down until they are no longer Red Riding Hood.

[Aerath]

That'd be the Li'l Red Riding Hood / Big Bad Wolf.

Roar is the Wizard of Oz event, for requires a couple specifics or decent tanks/healers.

[clevins]

Posting when VERY tired... ftl.

Roar... also a fun event. In fact, I wish there were more things like the Opera event in TBC.

[dwarfenhelm]

best and safest thing to do with roar is get the tank whos about to take on tin man to shield slam roar as soon as hes free then get a lock to keep him feared. as long as the tank grabs a bit of agro if fear is resisted he goes to tank not lock giving the lock a chance to recast without wiping your group.

[Justinledwards]

Shaman poison cleansing totem, cleanses blind, if the shammy is in the same group as the MT and OT

[Beruen]

best and safest thing to do with roar is get the tank whos about to take on tin man to shield slam roar as soon as hes free then get a lock to keep him feared. as long as the tank grabs a bit of agro if fear is resisted he goes to tank not lock giving the lock a chance to recast without wiping your group.

Yeah, our most experienced Kara guildie (he raids regularly on a toon that isn't in our guild, but that guild stopped running Kara, so he's with us to gear up to get past Kara) said that that was the best way to do it. Unfortunately, we were down a healer or two by then (it was getting late), and the only raid-geared and keyed warlock we've got is one of my alts, which would have meant giving up one of the two last healers still on.

If we had been up to one more try, we were probably going to bring in all three rogues to try a rotating blind on Roar, but at that point, we were already fairly fried, and everyone was just happy that we made it so much farther than we did the week before.

[Cerberus]

I'm guessing the reason Roar is a beast is an attempt to make some use of forgotten hunterskills. I'd take a lock anyday for the fearing, but a hunter can fear him as well if your lock goes down or if you don't have one.

[Katrala]

When we have extra druids in the group, we just pull as many adds as we can to Moroes and have a swipe-fest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/beccamillott/WoWScrnShot_010408_221309.jpg

Other than that, we have been having 2 tanks tank an add with Moroes (prot warrior if he's around,) with DPS handling the clothies. We always try to bring in 2 CC, but sometimes only have 1 and have to make do.

[Dakiter]

We did this last night easily with what everyone has said.

Cloth dies first, prot second while we had a shadow priest shackle and babysit the arms and me trapping the holy. Once the fist two targets dropped we took out the trap and concentrated on moroes while keeping the last mob shackled (I would place a trap between the shackle and the priest incase of a break for any reason).

It was a one shot for us.

[dwarfenhelm]

glad to hear we can offer some good advice once in a while :)

[rubberdubbie]

When we have extra druids in the group, we just pull as many adds as we can to Moroes and have a swipe-fest.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/beccamillott/WoWScrnShot_010408_221309.jpg

Other than that, we have been having 2 tanks tank an add with Moroes (prot warrior if he's around,) with DPS handling the clothies. We always try to bring in 2 CC, but sometimes only have 1 and have to make do.

On the left side of your screen where you have your raid members displayed..what unit frame addon is that?

[clevins]

That looks like XPerl or one of the Perl derivatives

[Justinledwards]

I've used fear beast on rawr. Problem is 20s fear with 30s cooldown. Need a psychic scream or 2 in between while waiting for CD. I've had fear beast resisted once as well.

I've tanked all the adds on moroes as an enhancement shammy and as an elemental shammy.