I'm getting tired of tank elitism...(long story)

[nosoup4crr]

I recently took my level 29 twink shaman up a few notches. He's level 33, and I decide to do an SM Lib run with him. I get into a group with 2 friends, who are playing a priest and a warrior. With them were two PUGers, a mage and a warlock. The tank starts off by saying...I'm tanking. Attack the mob I'm attacking, no others.

Fine...he's had some experience. He even has a shield. I'm happy to be grouped with a tank he seems to know his role. So...he attacks the first group of 2 enemies. The lock lets a few DoT's go...the mage starts to cast. After he charges, I wait maybe a second or two, and start to move towards the group. The warrior has had about 3 or 4 seconds to lay down a sunder. I hit his mob once, crit, and I gain aggro. It's no a huge deal...I have 2400 life. We get through the two enemies. I realized I may have moved in too early, and say, "haha...sorry. Do you want me to wait for sunders?" He says, "wait for 2 sunders."

Next is another 2 mob group. He charges in...he gets off 2 sunders, then I move in. I don't cast flame shock. I attack. My WF proc's, I take off about 2/5 to 1/2 of the enemies health, which draws aggro. He yells about this. I ask, laughingly, "WF proc'ed...it happens. I'm going to steal aggro sometimes. Do youw ant me to take off WF? I mean, seriously." We continue on...he's doing everything decently. he uses sunder...he thunder claps. But, I don't ever see him use demoralizing roar. And, strangely, he taunts as soon as he rushes in. I bring it up...and he says he doesn't want the lock's DoTs to take aggro. Whatever. It's SM Lib...i'm not going to argue. This should be cake. A few groups later, my windfury draws aggro again. Keep in mind, i'm not attacking other mobs...I'm attacking his mob. He tells me to take off windfury. Knowing that this is a completely trashy order, I tell him to calm down. That it's only SM Lib, not gruul's lair (he had previous been dropping names like this to show his experience, apparently?). "If you lose aggro, it's no big deal. Just wing it." He responds, "okay...let's wing it."

In an attempt to teach a lesson to the class, he takes off his shield, switches to a two hander, and starts charging various groups. If he has the opportunity to simply attack 1 or 2 mobs, he'll choose instaed to aggro a second set of mob(s). This is fine. Our two CC classes are smart. And while he's going haywire, his friend is healing him. But, once his friend (and even the other two members of the group) are out of mana, he continue attacking enemeies. I join, after he aggroes, and ask "are you purposefully trying to die?" To which I got no response. I ended up keeping him alive in that skirmish by my own healing This continues, until he runs into loksey...no shield equipped, group at half mana, and just begins attacking. We were able to wing it...but our mage died, unfortunately. He responds with, "see what happens when we wing it?" Of course, i go off on the kid...i say that i knew he was trying to prove a point...and that i iddn't think it was possible for someone to actually be as stupid as he was acting--which I was right about. The mage and lock laugh, and say they noticed it too.

At this point, I'm pretty sure he told his friend not to heal me any longer...because I never once got healed again, even though I, on many occassions, had to heal the priest because the tank coudln't seem to master multi-target tanking.

But, we continued. We cleared the halls, and got to the sets of rooms before doan--where there are many mobs and not much space. We had some trouble here. Nearly every time we killed a set of enemies, one of them would run and aggro another group--or the priest would psychic scream (not at altogether bad times...but i woudln't have done it). We had 3 straight brushes with death...the last of which wiped us. I had repeatedly brought up the fact that our focus targets were getting away. The warrior glibly said, "yeah, I wonder why that happened." My only thought is that he believed it was my fault since I was the only one chasing those mobs in an effort to kill them before they aggroed another group--which is a bit unreasonable, considering they were always the mob he was "tanking." He would just let them run, for some reason.

I responded that it probably had something to do with his not hamstringing. To which he says it's my fault. That I have a totem to do it...and that hamstring requires him to change stances. First off...i'm upset at myself that I hadn't seen that our tank hadn't been changing stances, anyway. For as much mayhem that was going on, he should've been dropping mocking blow every time it came up on cooldown. I asked him if he really thought it wise for me to drop AoE totems in confined areas when the group couldn't control aggro, and was running from place to place. Obviously, he resisted the implication that he had done something wrong.

I ended up leaving after that. A few minutes before the wipe, someone put up meters. I had been doing 42% of the group's damage, and 35% of its healing. I had been interrupting spellcasts (which the tank told me not to do because it caused too much aggro) and I had been the only person controlling runaway mobs. At some point, it's not worth the effort. If this guy is running gruul's with some raiding guild...it only gives me confidence. I've enver been a part of a raiding guild--but after seeing that display, I'm confident it can't take much know-how to be able to do what he does.

[Aurum]

First of he probebly dont run Gruul as a tank since he got that alt.
And that he lets the main-target run when its got low health i have to say i do the same when tanking with my warrior witch is around the same level you seem to be (35). I realy think its up to DPS to finish the runing guy off fast or solowing him down. It dont need no tanking at that point so i think its better to start building aggro on the other mobs. I dont know if that makes me a bad tank for not stance-dancing and doing hastering.
The problem however in those low-level instances is that DPS allways start nuking before i even get 1 hit in so thats why i switch target as fast as the first runs away.

Though it realy seems like the tank you met took the run a bit to seriously because a shaman can tank one or two of those mobs without a problem in there. I have at least not yet been able to hold perfect aggro through an intire instance and i realy think its hard to run a perfect run at that low level when everyone is specced for leveling!

[Tetamesh]

The guy is kind of an idiot, imo dps should try to kill the add when it runs, but him freaking out when a shammy pulls aggro is just stupid. Hell, that place is tankable by a shammy pretty much.

[Valas Azuviir]

To be honest, I didn't stance dance that much in SM with my warrior either, then again I do use the shouts and I didn't have that much trouble keeping up the aggro focussed on me either, and even if one got away, it tended to be in bad shape with the dps being able to finish it off, or I managed to reel it in again.

Not stopping for a mana break though, is just plain foolish and that's about as light as I can put it.

[Chappy Gilmore]

The guy is kind of an idiot, imo dps should try to kill the add when it runs, but him freaking out when a shammy pulls aggro is just stupid. Hell, that place is tankable by a shammy pretty much.

I agree with this, he was just an idiot. Also a shaman could easily tank that place, my brother's guild has a shaman who offtanks in Kara.

[dwarfenhelm]

of he had mocking blow on perm cd then he was in battle stance not def stance so he could hamstring to his hearts content. it just seems to me that he was a fool.
i had same prob in strat other day with a hunter telling us about hes farming mount hyjal and how great he is on his horde char and how alliance sucks. about 10 mins he starts telling the dps warrior that if he was in def stance and stacking sunders he could hold agro easier. i pointed out the tank was a pala so no point in warrior being in def stance. then hes telling my wife how to sap mobs 3 and 4 lvls above her without being seen by dogs WTF ??
all this time the hunter is pulling every mob not letting the tank do his job so i stopped healing said idiot. after me getting fed up i told hunter that id had enough and if he didnt shut up i was leaving group. the 64 pala kicked him and we ended up 4 manning baron rivendale, as the pala was only one over 60 this was a bit of a challenge for me to keep group alive but we sorted it and finished the dungeon

[Dhoum]

I can't comment on the skills the Warrior was using as I have zero experience of Warrior tanking. As regards his general behaviour however, yes I'd say it was stupid and childish. Frankly I'm amazed that you stuck it out as long as you did ... though having other people in the group who are of the same mindset as you is always an incentive to stay.

[Twoflower]

i dont see any elitis behaviour in this ^^ normaly elitis people know what they are doing. at least to a certain degree.

[Illiana]

I think the elitism refers to the point where the warrior says that his main is doing Gruul, inferring that he knows what he is doing because his main is raiding.

Fortunately, most people are smart enough to realise that being a (high end) raider does not mean you know everything best.

And yeah, I have actually tanked SM with my shaman. No biggy. Mail and self heals help alot, with some cc it's very doable. If your overaggro would cause wipes, only then the warrior would have a reason to whine.

[Morollan]

Frankly, unless this guy's raiding main is also a tank then he is no more qualified to talk about tanking than anyone else. Having, for example, a healer in Gruul's gives you precisely zero insight into tanking Gruul's.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

If you waited for the sunders then you did your job. That's why warriors have taunt, for those situations.

I was in an instance last night where a shaman decided to pull mobs with her stuipid chain lighting thingie and wondered why I let her die (I was a holy priest). I ended up leaving that group half way in. It's not worth a headache.

You should have left too.

[caldepen]

I get into a group with 2 friends, who are playing a priest and a warrior

I don't get it. I mean you are right, but it sounds like you were talking about the two pug'rs but you said the warrior was a friend of yours. Why did this play out this way when he was a buddy?

[Dhoum]

I don't get it. I mean you are right, but it sounds like you were talking about the two pug'rs but you said the warrior was a friend of yours. Why did this play out this way when he was a buddy?

I think the OP meant that the priest and the warrior were friends with each other, not with the OP.

[theseus]

The Tank was obviously a nub, but having said that DPS *have* to learn to control aggro. For example in our weekly Badge run of Karazhan last week I threatened to never take our Elemental Shaman ever again (I'm RL and MT), due to his continously pulling aggro. I'm a Feral Druid and like to think my threat is fairly reasonable, however watching Omen is really not that hard.

To be fair he didn't do it after that, but it makes a big difference for the whole raid if people watch their threat. Personally I preferred the whole 'wait for 5 sunders' thing before DPSing.

having said that when I get the chance to DPS I always try and maximise my DPS time :)

[Ash Housewares]

this isn't about tanks, its about one bad player


now, tank elitism is more like this...

so I'm tanking SLab with a friend of mine and 3 pugs (incidentally these pugs were friends of eachother but I didnt know them)

anyhow, this pug is a 3v3 team that really doesn't know how to PvE except for the healer who was great

so the mage is just trying to stack damage and pisses and moans when he gets aggro and something hits him, he's also too lazy to keep a mob sheeped and it gets loose and starts whacking the healer

so I'm having to deal with this crap and getting annoyed, tanks dont like their healers to be disturbed by terrible cc, so the next Malicious Instructor that comes along, I shoot to pull and he casts pyro at the same time and the mob doesn't get taunted until after it eats the mage

so yea, tanks can kill you, but honestly they shouldn't unless you earn it

your tank was awful, but what else is to be expected in SM?

and running gruuls is no big accomplishment, if the raiders are of his expertise I see why they haven't gotten any further

[mesonm]

If you waited for the sunders then you did your job. That's why warriors have taunt, for those situations.



yup...

Of course, the tank was using his taunt immediately after pulling, a stupid move....

[Ash Housewares]

yup...

Of course, the tank was using his taunt immediately after pulling, a stupid move....

I know, that drives me crazy, taunting as soon as you pull is like spamming heals on somebody with full health

[mesonm]

I know, that drives me crazy, taunting as soon as you pull is like spamming heals on somebody with full health

You mean....I should stop doing that? :grin:

[elsegundo]

i have a priest at level 40 and have been through all the popular instances for my level. i must say that even though i've played priests, i also have to study the roles of the other players as well. so in certain situations, i do have to commment on other's performaces if i find that they arent playing their character right. it seems that your tank was pretty confident he knew his class well, and knew what to do in certain situations (which he didnt) and i would have charged into anything just to prove a point. that's pretty juvenile at best, as i can only assume he has a superiority complex. i like healing in groups where people know their roles, and when things dont happen the way they should, people adapt. but we always go back to the same tactic, never go off and try to play slopily just to prove a point. on those occassions, if i can, i'd leave. if im with some friends, i'd ask the offender to leave.

but every class has a different point of view, and i think its ok for dps'ers and healers to comment on the performance of the group. heck, i didnt know how to heal for the longest until someone told me to please do not run away, either fade or run back to the tank if i pull aggro. now i never run away when mobs run at me, my first response is to take a few hits, but run back to the tank so he can regain aggro. and if that doesnt work, i'd do a fade. it takes some time and some learning. but group play is all about group play, duh!, and so i tell folks what i'd like them to do to make my life easier, and they tell me what i should do to make their lives easier and we win.

i've digressed from topic. haha. but maybe this helps. iono.

[SadaraK]

Having read that wall of text I have to say that while he wasn't exactly uber-player you didn't come off altogether amazingly yourself. Its up to DPS as much as anyone to kill running adds before they get anywhere, since by the time they are running they are low on health anyway and should not be a big problem to kill.

That plus my innate preference to play devils advocate to any sitation makes me think that from his point of view you might have been an uppity dps that wasn't listening or taking the instance seriously enough (for instance its quite easy for you to downplay your agro issues and uplay his complaining, while im not saying you are doing this its basic human nature to want your own point of view understood and sympathised with, which can lead to exaguration). While many dont at that level it doesn't mean some cant, and its obvious that difference caused some strife between the 2 of you.

OT rant about DPS and Threat in general:

Oh and completely OT (this isn't directed at the OP, just came to mind because of the subject) I will comment on what I see as irritating DPS in general since someone mentioned threat generated by DPS and how it should be controlled by them. Imo what could be called the opposite of the tank taking his job to seriously (as this was in part) would be the DPS being total lazy gits, not in terms of actual damage, oh no, in terms of bothering to monitor their own threat.

I have encountered DPS people in my own raids, that when they want to 'have fun' decide that its suddenly the tanks/healers jobs to keep them alive while they go totally mental on the mobs.

To all DPS people who think thats what have fun means: It only fun FOR YOU :P. So sick of running heroics and kara runs where the DPS thinks that, since were top tier raiders, they can 'have fun' in smaller runs, which translates to the tank having to run around like a blue arsed fly after their insane agro.

./end rant :)

[Pongle]

Shamans are a huge pain in the arse to tank for, you're also easier to replace than a good tank.

Edit: Can't hamstring in def stance, so yes it is your fault.

[Tort]

One bad player, don't blame all tanks. That makes us angry, and you wouldn't like us when we are angry. ::Hulks out::

I might be a bit elitist when im not tanking for my guild, but that comes from having tanked since day one and knowing quite a bit about my class and how to tank in general. Its kinda funny really, my "elitist" attitude only shows itself when im on my alt and some idiot is tanking for us. I generally call them out, they throw a fit and leave the group, and I end up having to tank the instance to show the rest of the group how a real tank acts. Sadly this happens alot, and my hunter has almost no badges or gear as a result. :cry:\

Also, constantly stance dancing while tanking is never a good idea. You really should never expect a tank to dance into battle/berserker stance and start hamstringing, that is the job of dps to get fleeing mobs down.

And yes, shamans are HORRIBLE at pulling aggro. They are one of the very few classes that can still pull aggro from me without really trying too hard.

[Aerath]

I am thinking of nabbing my shaman some tanking gear for that exact purpose.

She got the shield from Nightbane. Missed out on the Illhoof Cloak (was too slow in rolling - expected a druid to be interested). Might just go and build her a proper set :wink:

On a sidenote - if yer lucky enough to have me tank for you, and you do stupid things like starting off with a PoM Pyro when all I've got on it is a Faerie Fire, that mob *will* eat you first before I take it off anyone else.
I've found that repairs are great for either getting people to stop intercoursing about or just for getting rid of morons.

[nosoup4crr]

i WAS chasing mobs who were running off. The other two DPS were ranged, and so had no reason to chase. Because I always pulled aggro off of the tank's mob...and because he apparently only knows to use taunt at the start of a fight, I spent most of the instance simply soloing a mob on my own and keeping track of when the healer drew aggro. He would be tanking a mob, and the two other DPS would be attacking that mob, as well. When the mob was low on health, it would start running...and I would have to stop attacking whatever mob I was concentrating on to chase. I'd frost shock if my shock was on cooldown...but half the time it was too late.

If you think that it's safer for a shaman to drop an AoE totem that has limited range and could draw aggro in those cramped rooms...as opposed to a warrior simply pressing his battle-stance button when a mob was getting to its running point, you're as wrong as he was. I'm sorry tanks haven't mastered the art of pressing pressing the 1-button. But, if a tank can't handle that, I'm not going to accept responsibility because he wants to tank on comatose mode. Seriously, hamstring has no wandering variables. It's safe...much safer than laying an earthbind totem. Hamstringing your focus is not much to ask.

[dwarfenhelm]

thunder clap slows movement by 40% so why cant tanks use that as mob health goes down. i tend to keep TC on all mobs im tanking and if one breaks it dont break fast giving the ranged time to kill it.
but really in SM unless your running with a group of 70's alts you can bet that most of the group have little knowledge of how to play by lvl 30 in a group. with my first char SM was my learning curve and i spent days in that place trying to get a drop i was after, at the end i was a fairly confident tank but still didnt actually learn how to tank until i was running BRD.
and as to OP that moans about agro pulls in kara badge farms when im doing this i hardly ever stop unless healers are under 50% and just chain pull mob after mob and dps unloads at a silly rate. we have the odd silly wipe due to this but it makes a dull raid fun

[Morollan]

I might be a bit elitist when im not tanking for my guild, but that comes from having tanked since day one and knowing quite a bit about my class and how to tank in general. Its kinda funny really, my "elitist" attitude only shows itself when im on my alt and some idiot is tanking for us. I generally call them out, they throw a fit and leave the group, and I end up having to tank the instance to show the rest of the group how a real tank acts.

I'm not sure why you've put elitist in " " as your post seems to remove any doubt that may have existed as to whether you are or not. Calling out a tank is stupid. Offer advice by all means but winding up the tank serves no purpose other than you not ending up doing the run on the character that you wanted to do it on.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

You also get crappy tanks at lower levels because people don't tank as prot (unlike me who is all prot or all holy).

I never come out of def stance, but if a guy is running and the DPS didn't slow them then I can use a concusive blow to stun them for the kill.

[Tort]

If you think that it's safer for a shaman to drop an AoE totem that has limited range and could draw aggro in those cramped rooms...as opposed to a warrior simply pressing his battle-stance button when a mob was getting to its running point, you're as wrong as he was. I'm sorry tanks haven't mastered the art of pressing pressing the 1-button. But, if a tank can't handle that, I'm not going to accept responsibility because he wants to tank on comatose mode. Seriously, hamstring has no wandering variables. It's safe...much safer than laying an earthbind totem. Hamstringing your focus is not much to ask.

Hamstring does have wandering variables, believe it or not, including a massive drop in rage. Its ridiculous to ask a tank to switch to a dps stance when there are other party members who are much better at stopping mobs from running. Shamans have grounding totem and frost shock, locks have CoR, mages have a wide range of frost skills, other classes have stuns. Constantly switching stances- say it with me- severely reduces the amount of rage a tank has to tank with.

I have never been asked to switch stances when a mob gets low and start spamming hamstring. I will always use the skills available to me, including warstomp and concussion blow, to stop runners from running, but asking me to give up my lifeblood to make a lazy dpsers job easier is unacceptable.

thunder clap slows movement by 40% so why cant tanks use that as mob health goes down. i tend to keep TC on all mobs im tanking and if one breaks it dont break fast giving the ranged time to kill it.


Thunderclap does not reduce movement speed, it reduces attack speed. There is an aoe shout that reduces movement speed, but it is too deep into the fury tree for most prot tanks to grab.

I'm not sure why you've put elitist in " " as your post seems to remove any doubt that may have existed as to whether you are or not. Calling out a tank is stupid. Offer advice by all means but winding up the tank serves no purpose other than you not ending up doing the run on the character that you wanted to do it on.

Im not sure what is elitist about calling a tank out after he wipes the raid multiple times due to incredibly stupid mistakes. Calling out a tank is not stupid. We tanks have alot of responsibility, and if our mistakes are wiping the group then we need to do something about it. Calling out means notifiying the tank that he is doing something wrong and asking him to correct that. 90% of the tanks I call out have egos the size of Kalimdor, and immediately throw a fit and leave group. If you want to get anywhere in this game, from a pve perspective, you need to learn to keep your ego in check, accept criticism, and learn from your mistakes.

[Dhoum]

I am forced to agree that it is the job of DPS to take care of runners. As a Shaman, if you know that a mob is likely to run then it is your job to keep a Frost Shock primed and ready or to drop an Earthbind Totem. I'm afraid that, while your tank was undoubtedly an ass, your failure to deal effectively with runners wasn't down to him.

Have you never found, while soloing that buffing totems (like Strength of Earth) can draw aggro on nearby mobs? If for some reason you haven't, I can assure you that such is the case. So either you choose not to use any totems in Scarlet Monastery or use Stonegrab among other totems in order to help the group. I've used totems of all kinds (including Stonegrab) there a number of times (in all wings) without incident.

The only time I don't consider myself on active runner-control duty is when I'm healing the group ... and even then chances are I'll swap in a Stonegrab just to help the DPS classes out a bit.

[Tort]

Oh I forgot about Earthbind totem. :grin:

To be honest, Shamans are really one of the best classes to deal with runners. If you have a shaman in your group and you are still demanding the tank deal with runners, something is very wrong.

[moopy]

I am forced to agree that it is the job of DPS to take care of runners. As a Shaman, if you know that a mob is likely to run then it is your job to keep a Frost Shock primed and ready or to drop an Earthbind Totem. I'm afraid that, while your tank was undoubtedly an ass, your failure to deal effectively with runners wasn't down to him.

..unless the tank has heard of "hamstring". A good tank is a master of multitasking. Better that everyone is keeping an eye out for runners- it being hamstrung, earthbound and frostshocked is better than no-one bothering.

Crap tank too, btw. Starting with taunt=fail.

[Burntmeat]

..unless the tank has heard of "hamstring". A good tank is a master of multitasking. Better that everyone is keeping an eye out for runners- it being hamstrung, earthbound and frostshocked is better than no-one bothering.

Crap tank too, btw. Starting with taunt=fail.

So the tank have to possibly drop all rage to put hamstring on a mob (talents question), when its clearly easier for a dps to use frostshock, earthbind, kidney shot, slowing poison, hammer of justice. Hell even a rank 1 frostbolt does wonders. When i tank, its really up to dps to deal with runners while, that allows me to build additional threat on the next dps target.

[elsegundo]

I dont know why the warlock wasnt casting curse of recklessness when mobs start to run away. i do that in every instance im in where the mobs run at low health. even though they may get extra attack power, its better than them running to get two fresh new mobs.

i can see how the mage wouldnt be able to stop them, since they have frost nova, which is limited to proximity. on my mage, if the runner is running my way, i do a quick lv.1 frost nova to stop them from running. on my hunter i usually just drop the frost trap in the middle of the melee when mobs are about 50% dead. this saves me mana on concussive shooting and can slow everyone in a large radius. maybe tossing an earthbound totem in the area a little before the guy starts to run would help. this requires watching his health, but its better to be proactive than reactive. there's many ways to slow a runner down, and you're not the only one with those skills. perhaps the other guys should also learn to be helpful and not just pew pew pew everything.

[Tort]

I'm starting to wonder if some of the people in this thread know anything about rage and how it functions.

If I'm tanking only one mob, then of course im gonna switch stances and hamstring, because i won't immediately need all that rage i lost. If i am tanking multiple mobs, I will never ever switch to arms, lose all my rage, lose my threat on the remaining mobs, and start bloody hamstringing. Especially with a lock and a shaman in the group. Really, how much more ridiculous can you get?

Your tank was horrible though, and like I mentioned I have no tolerance for lousy tanks. You can blame him for taunting at the beginning, which is a complete waste of a good taunt, and you can blame him for being a jerk in general, but please don't expect him or any other tank to do your job for you.

[jschild]

Judgment of Justice from a Paladin is also a wonderful thing.

If they never run, you don't have to worry about runners.

[Tort]

Judgment of Justice from a Paladin is also a wonderful thing.

If they never run, you don't have to worry about runners.

Judgement of Justice is great, and so is Hammer of Justice. A holy Pally can throw up a HoJ at the right time and barely interrupt his heal cycle, its one of the more versatile stuns in the game.

[DrOsmius]

So the tank have to possibly drop all rage to put hamstring on a mob (talents question), when its clearly easier for a dps to use frostshock, earthbind, kidney shot, slowing poison, hammer of justice. Hell even a rank 1 frostbolt does wonders. When i tank, its really up to dps to deal with runners while, that allows me to build additional threat on the next dps target.

As a priest healing at those levels, I considered it one my duties to watch the next likely runner, be in range, and have a hair-trigger Mindflay reaction to slow them down and/or help with the final kill.

I'll throw my vote into the "runners are everyone BUT tank's job" category. Yes, they CAN...no they shouldn't have to.

[jschild]

Yeah, as Ret, I have 2 short time stuns (and one only works on humaniods), but when used at the right time, cause alot of trouble.

JoJ is the single best thing fjor a pally to use in instances with lots of runners. Beware any paladin who doesn't use it. They probably don't know what they are doing.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If the tank is in defensive stance (which he should be), then the tank isn't going to be able to easily hamstring. That said, my warrior has piercing howl to slow things down, but that's a talent choice.

[RioteR]

I have a sort of OT question.

Wouldn't shamans be very capable tankers, even in some high level instances? I don't know anything about high level content, lvl 55 being my highest level ever (and that was a rogue, so obviously I know nothing of tanking really).

But it seems like its viable, because Shamans wear mail, a decently high armor, and can use shields. But the big thing about them that I see as useful as a tank is self-heals. Not only would this make sure your health stays up high, but healing actually draws agro of mobs around you doesn't it? so you simultaniously making things easier for the group healer, and effectively holding agro. And maybe I'm wrong, but in many situations wouldn't the healing make up for the lack of armor gained by having a plate-wearing class?

[elsegundo]

i also think that, as the other healer in the group, the OP could have done 35% of the heals no problem. it helps the priest out. also, if he's doing 42% of the damage, then congrats. im not sure how this really pans out between the two dps'ers, but it looks like he did most of the damage. actually it seems like he was doing as much damage as the lock and mage combined. good output, but i simply think that even though you all have your own style or technique of playing, suggesting something to someone can come across the wrong way. i would just adapt instead of pointing out flaws. yes, i would probably not use windfury. or wait for the third sunder instead of the second. that's if he's doing three sunders. and of course, the main tank is not always the main assist. when taking on multiple mobs, i always ask who the main assist is. sometimes it is the tank. sometimes is the melee dps. just communicate more and talk things through. anyway... gtg. hope this helps.

[mesonm]

But the big thing about them that I see as useful as a tank is self-heals.

Well, if you consider that the shaman would have aggro, it isn't clear to me how you think they would heal themselves...Heals are casted, rather than instant cast....Thus, the spells would be interrupted alot.

Sure, Shaman can tank easier stuff, but why would they? They are build for dps and heals, in different talent specs....

And, since there are plate wearers, and also high armor droods, those seem to be better for tanking...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Shamans, like hunters, can potentially off-tank. But mail armor won't cut it in high-level instance, and forget about heroics or raids.

[Aerath]

Shamans, like hunters, can potentially off-tank. But mail armor won't cut it in high-level instance, and forget about heroics or raids.

I definitely wouldn't go advice it, but this does remind me of what happened to a guildy the other day...

She was complaining how she couldn't get a group to SL for her li'l resto shaman's kara pre quest.

Another guildy hopped on LFG, spotted some people who were looking for members and apparently were already on their way in SL.

Quick invite later and a trod over to realise they had a Holy Paladin, Enhance (or Resto Shaman, not sure bout their spec at the time), another Resto Shaman, a Hunter and I think a Warlock. And no tank.

The Enhancement shaman slapped on a shield and Frostshock tanked Murmur...

So, it's possible - just not something you want to repeat every day :grin:

[Imraath]

SM is the learning ground... You're messing with a guy who's trying to come to grips with one of the harder tasks in the game. Sure, he might have been a jerk but then I've never seen a story told straight when there is agro between two or more members in a bad group.

I don't know why they didn't just kick you from the group and replace you with one of a dozen other dps'ers waiting in line? (That's tank elitism!)