Alts and mains in raids? =(

[YamahaGuy]

Back when we started SSC, we were taking peoples alts often depending what classes we had on. For example, we have enough healers so one healer took their boomer.

There was this uproar and drama because peoples alts would get raid spots in SSC, and because they'd get gear too.

Never over mains. But theres always those items where alts are the only one who could use or only tell. Including tokens off gruul at the time too. That, and alts were taken to ZA and whatnot as well.

The biggest issues.... 1) An alt going to a raid when a main is sitting out or was on time to go and 2) double gearing people. #1 happens when someone tanks one fight, then brings an alt for the next.

So to quelm all the problems and quarrel, we made the rule

>>> No alts in SSC/TK/ZA unless short that class. Gruul/Kara/Other fine.

Looking around other big raid guild policies, I see the ones on our server also say "mains with main specs." Even for ZA.

In fairness, because we institute new policy, if people wanted to SPEAK NOW and switch "main" to come forward and see if we can arrange for it. (and we did for 2 people.)

So the only alts stepping foot in progressional raids for months, are when we are short a healer or a tank. Were never short DPS or other classes.

But even that is causing big problems.

Because other people with alts (hunters, mages, so forth) are starting to insist they want to raid on their alts. And they use the alt healers/tanks going as an example of fairness.

Well recently, one T5 tank quit the guild. His hunter is our guilds 'alt' since it was added later on, after the fact. To him, its "really his original main" and his hunter couldnt go to SSC because we have 4-5 hunter mains.

This has started a chain reaction =(

An enhancement shaman with 7 peices of SSC/TK loot on their record is now insisting "hes resto" and expects to raid although we have two restos already. If not, he will probably de-guild. Most those items received had multiple tells for them too, which is pissing a lot of people off. Hes "miserable as enh" and we "cannot make him raid a certain spec"

(I dont know how someone 'suddenly' becomes miserable after all that was discussed prior, and after gearing out....)

Another tank with a partly-kara-geared boomer thinks that on fights where the tanks not needed, the boomer should be able to go.

And so on.

Theres about 10 people with multiple toons. One of our best priests asked me, "If I quit the guild on my priest, then would my alt be my main?"

At the same time, even when its "ok" to bring an alt (short a couple people... missing a tank.. or a healer) the single toon holders rally once again in uproar about fairness.

I've held my ground, and stuck to the rules we made. Alts go only if short people.

But its not keeping everyone happy. "Fair" is always an individuals opinion and I cant win on all fronts. The alt holders say the raid is "people" not about "which of their toons" and the people with only one toon arnt having it.

We told everyone in a meeting before T5 started dropping, "Each person is entitled to one progressional character as we go through SSC and TK."

The common response is "you cant make me choose between my cat and my dog." They will argue it to the death

So, im stuck. I lost a T5 tank already. And were working on LV with bigger plans. And this uprising is inciting others to take their example. I could lose 4-5 active raiders (including one tank and one healer) in one shot if their alts dont get to start going or we allow them to respec and show up kara gear n blues.

But god only knows what would happen if I did let them and the apocalypse that would occur =/

[Krymsin]

I don't see any reason people should expect the entire guild to support their desire to gear up multiple characters. This will do nothing but hold up the timely progression in my opinion for those who are wanting to move up in content.

Why not designate an "alt night" in between the days on your raiding schedule, where basically anyone can go with more relaxed requirements / loot rules and tackle appropriate content?

[mesonm]

Bah...tell them they can have one toon, and are not guaranteed to be able to come if they change toons or specs....

[YamahaGuy]

I don't see any reason people should expect the entire guild to support their desire to gear up multiple characters. This will do nothing but hold up the timely progression in my opinion for those who are wanting to move up in content.

Why not designate an "alt night" in between the days on your raiding schedule, where basically anyone can go with more relaxed requirements / loot rules and tackle appropriate content?

We tried that with gruul.

Not enough tanks n healers wanted to play their mains to make the raid possible. Too many of them have DPS alt 70s they wanna take. N too many show up in blue alts. heh.

[mesonm]

We tried that with gruul.

Not enough tanks n healers wanted to play their mains to make the raid possible. Too many of them have DPS alt 70s they wanna take. N too many show up in blue alts. heh.

Well, the alts have to either have enough invested, or wipe....Its as simple as that....

But being able to take alts on main raids significantly diminishes progression....

[theseus]

I think what you need to do is sort out what issues people have from both sides of the camp, then make a ruling. Make an extended post in your guild forums explaining the rules and why they are like that. Everyone likes examples.

This way people understand the rules and how the game is played. The only issue they can have then is with the ruling nothing else. Similar to in a sport game the Referee just enforces the rules, he doesn't make them up.

Understand that most people do not think like you do, they may see what your doing as trying to make new rules or enforce unfair rules just to benefit yourself. (Silly I know but as an officer you are privy to information they are not).

For example in runs I Raid Lead I take Mains > Alts unless we need a certain role or class filled and no mains avaliable. If an alt wants in to an instance that is on farm status (eg. Karazhan) I would ask the main if they need anything, if all they need is badges I would explain that someone else needs loot so would they mind stepping out for some/all. Most decent people don't mind helping out a Guildee.

For loot Mains for raidspec get preference > alts. The Rogue alt can roll with the Holy Pally on melee DPS neckpeice.

Armor always goes to the class that can use first, so Rogue+Druid gets preference on Leather over Shaman for example.



In some cases I have stepped in and made a decision that runs contray to this, for example a Rogue alt has turned up for the past 2 weeks and been turned away, the next week he turns up again and I take him over another Melee DPS main.

Loyalty to the Guild > someone who turns up and expects to get a spot without helping out anyone else and acting rude.

I

[Twoflower]

make a difference between farm encounters and progress encounters.

for farm encounters, anyone can join with the char of their grandmother who is in greys.

for progress encounters, you pick. only geared people, only people with the right specc, the right amount of every class.

the way it sounds for you, T5 instances would fall under progress instances, and T4 and lower would fall under farm instances.

If a person with only one char has still need ( for his main ) in one of the farm instances, he gets priority over the alts. If he does not need any items out of this instance, tell him to take a evening off and enjoy himself.

If you dont have enugh people to do the instance because all a sudden everyone "looses interest" in farm instances it is time to replace some people.

[Tort]

I really couldn't imagine someone in my guild suddenly demanding to be allowed to bring their alt into a tier 5/tier 6 instance. They certainly wouldn't last very long. Like twoflower said, make a distinction between progression content and farm content. In my guild, we do allow alts to join in on farm encounter, but will still give priority of loot to mains who have been looking for a particular piece of gear for forever. We don't have problems with alts attempting to get into our progression raids because we have 30-35 core raiders who are always ready and willing to raid, so there really is never any room for extras.

[det]

We have a rogue bringing his Druid because we are lacking healing or tanking and he respeccs like 3 times a week. That druid is slowly becoming his main, and I'll be damned if that guy doesn't deserve to come. My rogue on the other hand isn't allowed to raid, we need my warlock main more.

I am not a drama queen about it...and as long as it is done not to gear alts while mains sit out the run..hell..why not?

But even if that alt (healer, OT) can fulfill a role better than a main who is sitting out (surplus dps)....take him along. Just don't take an alt over a main because you don't wanna shard loot.

[Leviathonlx]

People who want to gear up multiple characters like that usually if anything just hold a guild back from progression and especially so if they get their way. The only time I have no problem with someone gearing up a 'alt' is if they are re-rolling to that character due to a lack of that class/spec and its purpose is to help the guild. Just people who push to try to get their alts into instances where a guild is still progressing normally find they are not in a guild very long.

Just once you let someone gear up their alt just for the fun of it then you have every other member wanting their alt to get geared up.

[Twoflower]

People who want to gear up multiple characters like that usually if anything just hold a guild back from progression and especially so if they get their way. The only time I have no problem with someone gearing up a 'alt' is if they are re-rolling to that character due to a lack of that class/spec and its purpose is to help the guild. Just people who push to try to get their alts into instances where a guild is still progressing normally find they are not in a guild very long.

Just once you let someone gear up their alt just for the fun of it then you have every other member wanting their alt to get geared up.

there is nothing wrong with giving items noone needs to alts instead of disenchanting them. and that point comes faster than you think.

by the time we got to illidan and started trying him seriously, noone of our 5 mage crew needed anything any more from the first 6 bosses in BT.

so i have to disagree very much with this post i quoted.

[dwarfenhelm]

i have a t4 equiv geared tank and an almost t4 equiv hunter. my tank was always my main and if on some fights we need 4 or 5 tanks then after that boss is dead we only need 1 or 2 tanks then why shouldnt i be able to bring my hunter when the group no longer needs me on my tank.
ive come across some players that dont actually work at gearing chars up other than in bg's and i can agree that they dont deserve to bring an alt along over another member who has made the efforts to gear up.
my old guild used to treat every alt as a separate person and dkp was sorted out only for the char in an instance when a boss was killed. that way people have to think about who and what the want to raid with so they get to stand a fair chance in a dkp bidding war

[Clavina]

There are not many people in our guild who have an alt well geared enough to even raid ssc/tk. I am one and occasionally get asked to raid with my ele shaman when we lack ranged dps. When my shaman raids I understand that I won't get any gear unless noone else wants it and I really wouldn't want to 'steal' gear from mains anyway. Fortunately our guild members understand the concept of mains raiding on progress raids. We have off-days and 10-mans for alts and it works OK for us.

If I were you I would ban ALL alts from progress raids, they can't say that isn't fair. Tbh though I think your real problem may be the length of time you have been banging your head against Vashj coupled with the upcoming changes in in 2.4 (ie attunement removal). All guilds go through periods of upheaval, but if you have a solid core of people you will be able to ride it out.

[Illiana]

How does your guild distribute loot? For now I will assume you use some sort of dkp system. Maybe the following idea will work:

People who raid on their mains get normal dkp. People who raid on their alts because that specific class/spec was needed in the raid and they were asked by the raidleader to bring their alt get normal dkp (added to the total of their main). People who bring alts because they feel like it whhile the alt is not needed in any way, get no dkp. No alts should be allowed in if a main with appropriate gear/spec is willing to go and is there in time for the raid. Alts only get loot when no main wants it. There shall be no alting if that means the raid will be short on your main's class.

Want to gear up your alt? Fine, but it will have a negative impact on your main's gear progression, and it might eventually lead to you not getting invites for raids on your main because your gear is lagging behind, if you play on the alt too much.

When someone in my guild rerolls and it is not because we need the class he is rerolling to, he is treated as if he is a new trialist. So no more "guaranteed" raidspots, and he actually has to perform well in his new role in order to earn a raidspot again. If the person wants to reroll to a class that is already full, thats too bad for him really. We cannot stop him from rerolling, nor do we have any desire to tell him how to play the game, but he will not get a raidspot over our other guildies who are still doing what we recruited them for.

[mesonm]

There are not many people in our guild who have an alt well geared enough to even raid ssc/tk. I am one and occasionally get asked to raid with my ele shaman when we lack ranged dps. When my shaman raids I understand that I won't get any gear unless noone else wants it and I really wouldn't want to 'steal' gear from mains anyway.

I have a [slight] problem with being asked to bring a toon because they lack the right class mix online, and then being relegated to the back of the bus.

It isn't a loot thing....Its a fairness thing. After all, you are not bringing him by choice, and without you switching, the guild may not be able to kill the thing....

[rgirty]

Yamaha, we've been talking a long time and this is how we handle it. This may sound harsh, but this is how it is.

Alts only if its a needed class. (just as you do)

Progression T5 raids require main spec and char.

You won't bring your alt to the raid otherwise.

Thats the end of it.

The focus of the guild is to "down bosses" i assume and not to "gear up everyone's alt"

If someone is miserable with their current spec, tell them they are free to respec and play how they want but since they can't cover the same role in the raid they can't expect the same raid spot.

If they want to leave, wish them well on their new endeavors.

We've had countless druids/paladins leave our guild because we didn't have room for their boomkin/ret desired playing specs. We told them they would need to tank or heal if they wanted common raid spots (we didn't close raiding to them, but they were not given priority over pure classes).

We would make this as nice as possible... more often than not, within a week or two I would speak to them and they would be raiding as tank/healer for their new guild. Soon after a lot of them would try to come back to our guild as a tank/healer which occasionally we would allow a few of them back.

If your resto shaman wants to go enhance, let him go...for another guild.

If your t5 tank wants to throw a hissy because he can't claim a spot for his hunter let him find it in another guild.

It might hurt a little, but the patch is coming things are changing. Get rid of these folks now so they don't slow you up later.

Thats my 2cp tho, i'm fairly hardcore about doing the job you actually signed up for.

I treat it like this, in the real world if you apply for a job as the janitor then get hired and after two weeks decide you aren't going to clean toilets anymore you get fired or you quit.

The same goes for the guild, those people can change spec or make an alt their main but don't expect the same raid spot.

We have a guy who's been in the guild for a year, as a holydin. Decided he didn't like it and leveled a hunter to 70 in 9 days /played. His hunter is still in kara/za other raids because we are full on dps classes.. he knew this before he re-rolled. We've talked about it a few times and I tell him repeatedly, healers are needed more often than dps. It isn't fair to all of our dps players who have been here with their main char all this time for you to re-roll and take their raid spot.

It isn't, and we don't allow it. Don't pander to a few people and be unfair to the rest of the guild.

I have personally re-spec on more than one occasion for months at a time for what the guild needs but never my own desires.

If someone is unhappy with their main, they should change it or change spec. But like my analogy above, it is like not being happy with your job leave it or find another don't expect the same raid spot.

You might have to recruit a few new people but thats how it is.

[Clavina]

I have a [slight] problem with being asked to bring a toon because they lack the right class mix online, and then being relegated to the back of the bus.

It isn't a loot thing....Its a fairness thing. After all, you are not bringing him by choice, and without you switching, the guild may not be able to kill the thing....

I suppose that is one way of looking at it and I see your point. However I just enjoy the change in pace from main tanking and enjoy doing the bosses from a totally different viewpoint. (I also like embarrassing some main chars with my dps ;))

[Leviathonlx]

there is nothing wrong with giving items noone needs to alts instead of disenchanting them. and that point comes faster than you think.

by the time we got to illidan and started trying him seriously, noone of our 5 mage crew needed anything any more from the first 6 bosses in BT.

so i have to disagree very much with this post i quoted.

I am talking about taking alts to a instance a guild is progressing in not a instance that is on farm for months. Course when my guild was farming BT/MH we never even thought of going back to SSC/TK nor wanted to. Course I thought I was pretty clear in my post I meant instances a guild doesn't have on farm and is progressing in and not a instance that was on farm for 5 months for a guild.

[Dhoum]

Your current policy (no alts on progression raids unless invited to fill a vital role) sounds fine to me. If anyone can't work with that then maybe they need to move on.

On the whole I agree absolutely with Rgirty *gasp*

[moopy]

It's pretty simple, you take well-geared mains to progression fights. Stuff needs to be on uber-farm before you can even consider alts. Hell, we clear SSC in about 2.5 hours, and even then, we don't tend to take alts. No question of taking them to BT.

Maybe when Sunwell 25 is on farm, and we're clearing BT, MH and Sunwell every week, and are just doing SSC/TK to relax, we'll have have a good enough balance of well-geared alts to be able to stream through SSC with them. However, it wouldn't be fun to take a couple of evenings to clear the t5 instances.

Also, there's a class mix issue with alts. People tend to make DPSser alts, rarely does anyone make a PvE specced/geared healer alt voluntarily. Ho hum.

[Dakiter]

The hard thing here is what you expect from your guild and their raids. Let me explain:

There is a guild on my server that has 40 members. Thats it. They allow no more and entrance into this guild is invite only. There are no alts, there are gear requirements and in order to get gear you need to be at every raid. They can do everything in the game. They have seen it all and they are seriously hardcore about it.

Then there is my guild. Its more of a casual raiding guild. We allow alts and we invite folks that we have fun with, not because of the gear they have. We have weekly raids scheduled but we dont make it a requirment to be there as RL does come into play. If your main character is completely geared from kara and you want to start bringing your alt that is fine. If its your first time raiding on this character and there is a drop you can use, feel free to roll. The only time we have stipulations on rolling for gear is when one of our regulars is missing a piece and has been showing up for months. If the item drops we will "highly suggest" that the item goes to that person with no rolls and we have never had an argument about it.

Here is what ends up being the advantages/disadvantages to both of these. With the hardcore guild you will see everything. If you show up all the time you are eventually guaranteed the best gear. But your play time and spec etc etc are being dictated for you. But you should have known that prior to signing up with that guild. With the more casual guild you get to play who and when you want, but moving past certain levels of end game content maybe impossible or take a long long time.

I guess its all what you are looking for as a player or how you sell your guild to its members. Just remember the minute you make an exception, everyone will expect the same treatment.

[moopy]

If your main character is completely geared from kara and you want to start bringing your alt that is fine.

This works at a Karazhan level. Not so hot in t6 instances, where you need to have a certain gear level, or it all goes horribly wrong. The Answer(tm) is a lot easier at the more casual levels.

[rgirty]

Your current policy (no alts on progression raids unless invited to fill a vital role) sounds fine to me. If anyone can't work with that then maybe they need to move on.

On the whole I agree absolutely with Rgirty *gasp*

A lot of people agree with a lot of my posts, why do people post that they are so surprised to agree with me?

LOL

[Dakiter]

With the more casual guild you get to play who and when you want, but moving past certain levels of end game content maybe impossible or take a long long time.

Moopy, that is the reason why I said what I quoted above. If you are pushing your guild as a hardcore raid guild then you have to do it with no exceptions. A lot of people have a hard time taking their needs and wants out of a situation. Lets say your best healer has been hardcore raiding with you guys for months. They are completely geared out and now wants to play their rogue alt at the raids. But the raid is now a healer short. The problem here is that just cause the healer got everything thing need, doesnt mean everyone else did. By taking the healer out of the group you are making it very difficult for the rest of the group to advance. As a raid leader or guild master you are looking at from the point of whats best for everyone, where the individual player often looks at it as whats best for them.

Again, if you want to be a hardcore raiding guild then there should be no exceptions. If you are all geared well enough maybe you say alts are welcome for Kara or Daily Heroics but for the the T6 and such raids it has to be your primary characters.

[clevins]

rgirty pretty much nailed it. But no one has addressed the priest's question to you Yamaha - "If I gquit on my priest is my rogue my main..."

Here's how we deal with that - if your main leaves, your alts leave. YOU, the person, are a part of the guild. If you decide you don't want to be part of us any longer, fine. But then none of your toons can stay. We do this *precisely* to prevent what that priest is doing - take one class that's geared out of the guild and gear an alt up. And when that alt is geared? right... more often than not, they'll leave.

Some people view the guilds as a means to gear - when they have the gear, they leave.

[mesonm]

Here's how we deal with that - if your main leaves, your alts leave. YOU, the person, are a part of the guild.

I've had it work the other way....I joined a guild on my mage, and they accepted that he would be my main....I then asked if my [better geared] holy pally could join, and they said "Sure! And she will be your main...right?"...

When I said no, that my mage is still my main, they said "Cool....you joined on your mage...".

Raiding was a different story....From the very first raid, it was clear that they preferred my pally, and I could not raid on my declared main....because the guild always wanted me to use my better [full kara, some pvp gear also] geared character.

We soon parted company.

That was long ago...I don't even have time to raid much anymore...

[Dhoum]

A lot of people agree with a lot of my posts, why do people post that they are so surprised to agree with me?

LOL

Well mostly it's Paladins who are surprised. :tongue:

[moopy]

meson,

I had something a bit like that pre-tbc. I joined a guild with my hunter, who was well-geared by the standards of that guild, always cranked out more DPS than anyone else. All was rosy for a while, I did great in raids.. Until the day when they were a healer short. I offered to bring my priest.. I was asked if she was well-enough geared for ZG. "Oh, I think it'll be OK", I replied casually.

Snap forward a bit, to the end of the raid- where my heavily-geared priest had (predictably) outperformed all the other healers without even breathing hard. Cue the friction. Grumble.

So they were happy to have me as a hunter, and their best DPS, when that's all they knew. All of a sudden, they have the hots for my priest. No-one stopped to consider why I wasn't playing priest. The fact was that I had healing burnout from Naxxramas, and wanted my game time to be a chance to relax, and to enjoy a nice change of pace.

People, eh?

[rgirty]

rgirty pretty much nailed it. But no one has addressed the priest's question to you Yamaha - "If I gquit on my priest is my rogue my main..."

Here's how we deal with that - if your main leaves, your alts leave. YOU, the person, are a part of the guild. If you decide you don't want to be part of us any longer, fine. But then none of your toons can stay. We do this *precisely* to prevent what that priest is doing - take one class that's geared out of the guild and gear an alt up. And when that alt is geared? right... more often than not, they'll leave.

Some people view the guilds as a means to gear - when they have the gear, they leave.

I have a one line policy that deals with this, i'll give it to you here.

"if the guild is not good enough for your main, it isn't good enough for your alt"

Thats it.

[Urden]

Something like this can easily cripple a guild. You find out who is petty and who is sincerely there to help the guild.

Alts do slow progression down once your at the higher level stuff, but in my guild, only one officer has a single character. The guild leader, 3 officers and about 5 of us members all have multiple 70's and a few have 3 or more (I have 4 70's - 3 that raid). They key is the alts jump in when we don't have the right class mix up.

If the alts don't sub in, then you have the wrong class mix up and it can be a costly night of progression. Members with single toons don't seem to appreciate that AT ALL. The funny thing is those of us with multiple toons genuinely want to progress the guild, we try to run as much as possible and will take what ever toon is needed. Sometimes they get gear, sometimes they don't, its no different then if you pugged the spot to the proper class so you can progress!

Its all about leadership, sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, which means booting people who create drama. If you've progressed there are people who are willing to step in their place. You can gear them up as long as they can make the runs.

[clevins]

Something like this can easily cripple a guild. You find out who is petty and who is sincerely there to help the guild.

Alts do slow progression down once your at the higher level stuff, but in my guild, only one officer has a single character. The guild leader, 3 officers and about 5 of us members all have multiple 70's and a few have 3 or more (I have 4 70's - 3 that raid). They key is the alts jump in when we don't have the right class mix up.

If the alts don't sub in, then you have the wrong class mix up and it can be a costly night of progression. Members with single toons don't seem to appreciate that AT ALL. The funny thing is those of us with multiple toons genuinely want to progress the guild, we try to run as much as possible and will take what ever toon is needed. Sometimes they get gear, sometimes they don't, its no different then if you pugged the spot to the proper class so you can progress!

Its all about leadership, sometimes you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, which means booting people who create drama. If you've progressed there are people who are willing to step in their place. You can gear them up as long as they can make the runs.

All of that is fine... as long as those people with alts realize that those alts will only raid *if it is needed to progress*. The situation you've described doesn't hit the hot buttons of people with only one raiding toon - alts taking spots from mains and alts demanding to be run regularly to gear up.

If a spot is empty, then no one's main is being bumped.. but if it's not, taking the alt is effectively holding 2 spots for that person - one for their main, one for their alt. No, sorry, pick one. Willing to bring your alt to help out? Fine, but it will ONLY go if 1) we don't need your main and 2) we do need your alt. The issue with this, of course, is that the alt needs to be reasonably geared for the instance.

Which brings us to the gearing issue. People want to gear up their alts. Now, if the alt is brought to fill an open spot, fine. But people should NOT expect to bring their main, get the drops it needs, then bench that toon and start bringing the alt for the drops that IT needs. The idea is to move on, not spend time getting people's alts geared. Expecting people who only have mains to do runs so your alt can get drops is... um... self-centered.

Finally, if your raid regularly finds itself without some classes needed for the raids you're doing there's another way to solve that - recruit those classes.

[Elsu]

People who want to gear up multiple characters like that usually if anything just hold a guild back from progression and especially so if they get their way. The only time I have no problem with someone gearing up a 'alt' is if they are re-rolling to that character due to a lack of that class/spec and its purpose is to help the guild. Just people who push to try to get their alts into instances where a guild is still progressing normally find they are not in a guild very long.

Just once you let someone gear up their alt just for the fun of it then you have every other member wanting their alt to get geared up.

I've been playing WoW for almost three years.. Are you saying that I should not be allowed good gear for an "alt" because some noob that has only been playing three months has just made level 70 does not have a complete set of epics for his or her first character yet?

[sparklebunny]

I think Rgirty (applaud) hits it on the head. I think the rules of my guild are very similar to his - we are currently halfway through SSC.

In my guild:

Your main was who you were recruited on and the toon you will be expected to bring to raids

If you have an alt and you are requested to bring it then you have a right to roll on the gear as if it was your main....because the raid leader asked you to bring said toon.

If you decide to bring an alt of your own volition or change your spec without the permission of your class leader then you will be reset to the bottom tier of gear as if you brought a new toon in....and we rather you didn't change and if you do consult your class leader.

It boils down to this - raiding guilds are about progression....they are not about gearing up alts. If people are there to gear up toons and want to bring it based on "what they feel like" then our guild is not for them. You bring what you applied for. Gear is to augment your progression not be the reason for your progression or interest in raiding. I know WoW is a gear-based game but it does not need to be the driving force.

[clevins]

I've been playing WoW for almost three years.. Are you saying that I should not be allowed good gear for an "alt" because some noob that has only been playing three months has just made level 70 does not have a complete set of epics for his or her first character yet?

If you're in a progression raid guild.. yes. But in that case you wouldn't be playing with a new 70 of course. Unless your alt is newly 70... in which case you're both equal. You're not entitled to anything because you've been playing 3 years.

Sparkle... you wouldn't happen to be pacific time and need a rogue, would you? :wink:

[Leviathonlx]

I've been playing WoW for almost three years.. Are you saying that I should not be allowed good gear for an "alt" because some noob that has only been playing three months has just made level 70 does not have a complete set of epics for his or her first character yet?

If your in a progressing guild no I don't feel you should bring your alt in to take gear over a main who will help progress the guild. Course thats a entirely different thing all together. And really how long you have been playing the game means nothing and I see why you feel you would be entitled to more then. Course I know of no guild who would let a alt go to a raid and get gear over a main.

[Elsu]

What is the point in continuing to play one character for several months if it has all epic gear and has and little if any chance to improve on what it has?

What if my main was a Warrior and my alt was a Priest? Would I be exempt from this rule if your guild needed Priests?

I enjoy helping others gear up their character, but if that is all I am allowed to do in your guild, it would not be long until I would be looking for another guild...

BTW, what size guild are we talking about? A smaller guild might NEED players to have more than one well equipped character, while a larger guild may have so many players that some would have to take turns running instances.

[Elsu]

If you're in a progression raid guild.. yes. But in that case you wouldn't be playing with a new 70 of course. Unless your alt is newly 70... in which case you're both equal. You're not entitled to anything because you've been playing 3 years.

I do not understand "progression raid guild". Please explain.

I do not feel that I should be entitled to anything JUST because I have been playing for three years, but I do not believe I should be restricted for that reason either.

I put the same effort into my new Alt as the newbie puts into his or her new Main and I feel that my character should have the same chance for upgrades as their character. My character should not be restricted just because it is an Alt. BTW, how will you know that it is an alt if I do not tell you?

[rgirty]

What is the point in continuing to play one character for several months if it has all epic gear and has and little if any chance to improve on what it has?

What if my main was a Warrior and my alt was a Priest? Would I be exempt from this rule if your guild needed Priests?

I enjoy helping others gear up their character, but if that is all I am allowed to do in your guild, it would not be long until I would be looking for another guild...

BTW, what size guild are we talking about? A smaller guild might NEED players to have more than one well equipped character, while a larger guild may have so many players that some would have to take turns running instances.

What you are saying is ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!

A guild is about we.

Guild progression is only as strong as your weakest player.

Once you have everyone on a level playing field in regards to gear, then the guild will start downing new bosses and you can get new shiny purple items to mouseover on your char screen.

Or you can do what 23849203843 people do that share your attitude you can post this in guild chat

"This guild can no longer provide my char with new loot,so i'm going to guild hop to another guild that has better progression. I don't want to stay and help the rest of you gear up to my level, I want to go somewhere that the hard work of learning new bosses and gearing to the next level has already been accomplished. Thanks for the epix BAI!!"

I raided gruul for 8 months knowing I would never get a piece of loot from there.

Other people obtained many many items which pushed into SSC when we started seeing new bosses in ssc/tk i did get some new items.

But if I would have taken the approach of "you nubs can't get me any lootz" this would have never happened.

Helping others is often just a lengthy way of helping yourself.

[clevins]

I do not understand "progression raid guild". Please explain.

I do not feel that I should be entitled to anything JUST because I have been playing for three years, but I do not believe I should be restricted for that reason either.

I put the same effort into my new Alt as the newbie puts into his or her new Main and I feel that my character should have the same chance for upgrades as their character. My character should not be restricted just because it is an Alt. BTW, how will you know that it is an alt if I do not tell you?


First off, let's make sure we're on the same page. To me a progression (or hardcore) raiding guild is focused mainly around raiding. Playing alts, helping sub-70 members, PvP etc are all much less important. A progression guild will usually raid AT LEAST 3 nights a week and usually 5 or more. They want to move through raids... to kill new bosses and move to new , more difficult raid instances. A so-called casual raiding guild raids as one of its activities but isn't focused on it as the overwhelming activity of the guild. All of the stuff I just mentioned - PvP, playing alts, helping sub-70s - is much more a part of this type of guild's life. When I say 'raiding guild' below, I mean the progression type.

If you apply to a raiding guild with a given toon for a role, then as far as the guild is concerned THAT is your main. What you consider your main and alt isn't important. This might be the third 70 you have and to you, an alt... but to the raiding guild you just joined it's your main. It's the reason you were accepted into the guild.

Now let's say you like the people and want to move your other toons into the guild. They say "sure, cool." That does not mean "Of course we'd love to gear up all of your toons." The point of any raiding guild is to make progress... to move past the boss they're on to the next one, to move past the current instance to the next one. It's not for people with multiple 70s to cycle in all of their toons.

There's always going to be a tension between people who have alts they love to play and raiding... but that's part of the decision to join a raiding guild in the first place. You're deciding to focus on one toon in one guild for enough time to help the raid make progress. If you don't want to do that.. don't app to a raid guild. None of what we're talking about here applies to casual raiding guilds which, I think, is the better place for people who want to raid on multiple toons.

[frimley]

This is how it works in our guild.

We consider ourselves a progression raid guild. We have about 33-35 raiding members. Currently raid 3 nights a week, attendance is mandatory (obviously there's some flexibility but a high attendance is expected). Our raid set up is 4 tanks, 4 melee dps, 10 ranged dps, 7 healers. Everyone signs up, and then there is a strict and fair rotation system. Because of this everyone is pretty much at a very similar gear level. On the odd occasion where the raid make-up needs to change slightly, mains will respec rather than bring alts.

And that's it. Really pretty simple. We're currently 5/9 in Black Temple.

Alts gear up in optional raids to Kara (and sometimes Gruuls), but even our optional ZA runs tend to be mains only.

[Ash Housewares]

@OP

your guild has weak leadership that allows people to get away with incredibly selfish behavior

people think theyre entitled to raid spots and it seems to me things need to get strict, if its getting to the point where someone might quit, just give them the boot now and save the drama

clear out the trouble makers now and make sure everyone who stays knows why the people got kicked - that selfish alt gearing is just going to lead to idling or falling behind instead of to progression

people need to be more concerned with what the guild needs that day, and be willing to take either of their characters if they have more than one


in my guild, it seems only the officers have multiple raiding characters, and they take which one is needed, not which one they want loot for

people respec all the time if we're short healers, a boomkin and feral both went resto to help out

our raid leader rolled a shammy because the shammies we had were total flakes

these people are trying to help the guild not help themselves, and that message needs to go out to your members, that they need to grow up, get the raids done, and not get all mopey about their alts gear, let kara, za, and other t4 raids gear up their alts, if the alt is a needed class it will find its way in, but honestly, you don't get anywhere hopping between toons, you gotta find your raider and stick with 'em


for the record, I have one 70 alt, who is not geared enough for raids, but I'm working on his gear and if it ever gets good enough that he's not a burden I might try and bring him along if needed, but I would never be forceful about it because they would shut me down, because the leadership is stern but fair