Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking?

[Maticus]

After reading the thread by Rushter (http://wow.incgamers.com/n/410685/ideal-anti-gank-mechanic) about Warhammer's plans to implement an anti-ganking system, and seeing the comments left by us WoW players, it's clear that ganking is a sensitive subject. Some players feel it is their god-given right to attack other players whenever and however they please, because it can only take place on a PvP server, where players fully understand they will be attacked from time to time, or on a normal realm if the player is flagged for PvP.

However, I can't help thinking that the majority of people hate ganking, even those on PvP servers. I know, I know, isn't that the whole point of PvP servers, to be vulnerable to an attack from members of the opposing faction at any time? But surely there's a limit on what's fair and what isn't? I bet I'm not the only person who's been leveling a lowbie alt late at night, and had to deal with a high level player from the other faction, who thinks it's really good fun to kill me repeatedly, or follow me round sapping me every 5 seconds.

Should Blizzard take steps to penalize high level players for killing players, say, 20 levels or more below them?

[det]

/hits head repeatedly against wall until brain matter dribbles out.

Seriously, hasn't this subject been discussed to death? Oh..wait..it has. Let me sum it up for y'all and save us some time:

In the immortal words of Aerath: "PvP on a PvP server? No waaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Yes, this should have been a poll.

[Maticus]

was making the poll, it's up now :D

[rgirty]

It has been handled.

You know when you create your char and there's a list of servers you can pick?

Just choose the one that says pve/normal. The issue has been resolved IMO.

If you don't want to be ganked, then don't roll pvp. You can even move from pvp to a pve server, i'm not sure how much coddling people really want.

[NOYB]

Just sounds silly to me. I'm assuming Warhammer won't have a differentiation between PvP and PvE. Therefore, it "might" make sense in that game to have an "anti-gank" system in place. In a game like WoW, where there are realms that cater to different playstyles; it's completely unnecessary.

[Moo Cow]

It should have never been the way it is in the first place.

There's absolutely no reason for a level 70 to be able to world kill a level 20.

When I played MUDs, I enjoyed choosing "the dark side of the path" where there was world PvP. But what kept it in check was that you couldn't attack anyone more than 6 levels below you.

So there was the element of danger from people in your range - but you could still deal with it. When it's a level 70 vs a 20, it's just absolutely ridiculous.

I don't agree with how Blizzard set it up in the first place. But it's way too late to change it now. I might actually play on a PvP server if they had a restriction like that.

[Maticus]

It has been handled.

You know when you create your char and there's a list of servers you can pick?

Just choose the one that says pve/normal. The issue has been resolved IMO.

If you don't want to be ganked, then don't roll pvp. You can even move from pvp to a pve server, i'm not sure how much coddling people really want.

As I've said before, I, and many others like me, picked the server I'm on because I had friends there already who I wanted to level with. If I was starting alone, I would have definitely gone PvE, and if I knew then what I know now, I might have even rolled on a PvE despite my friends being on a different server.

I heard tell of the perils of STV as I was leveling, only when I hit the appropriate level did I find the horror that was awaiting me, basically high levels going there to deliberately seek out lower level chars to gank, again and again and again.

It shouldn't be that bad, it spoils the gameplay if people don't have a fighting chance.

[Twoflower]

In the immortal words of Aerath: "PvP on a PvP server? No waaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"

nothing to add to this.

[Lothaer]

dont wanna get gank DONT ROLL A PVP SERVER.

[mesonm]

However, I can't help thinking that the majority of people hate ganking, even those on PvP servers.

So far, you are off the mark by a wide margin.

Yes: 0
No: 7

:grin:

[Ardani]

It has been handled.

You know when you create your char and there's a list of servers you can pick?

Just choose the one that says pve/normal. The issue has been resolved IMO.

QFT. I am so sick of seeing this topic hashed out over and over. You (generic "you") chose a PvP server KNOWING you would get ganked, so if you now can't handle it, please, for the love of God, roll on the server type that was designed for you and stop trying to change the way that PvP servers have ALWAYS worked for those of us who enjoy them.

If you are old enough to play WoW, you are more than old enough to take personal responsibility for your decisions -- decisions like making an informed choice to roll on a PvP server.

[rgirty]

As I've said before, I, and many others like me, picked the server I'm on because I had friends there already who I wanted to level with. If I was starting alone, I would have definitely gone PvE, and if I knew then what I know now, I might have even rolled on a PvE despite my friends being on a different server.

I heard tell of the perils of STV as I was leveling, only when I hit the appropriate level did I find the horror that was awaiting me, basically high levels going there to deliberately seek out lower level chars to gank, again and again and again.

It shouldn't be that bad, it spoils the gameplay if people don't have a fighting chance.

I'm in the same situation, exactly. Rolled on my server because of friends.

But ultimately it is my choice to stay there and be ganked, blizzard has given me multiple ways out of this. Transfer, or re-roll pve.

PvP servers should be just that, PvP. I hate gankers, i think they are some of the lowest form of gaming humanity.

But in reality, when you roll pvp your asking for this. No matter what the circumstance of rolling pvp was you do have an option to leave it.

I don't think people should behave in the ganking manner, but once again blizzard has given people 2 options to remove themselves from it.

[Chantal]

Well, most often when this discussion is brought up with pro-ganking people they reply with their age-old arguments of "roll PvE n00b", and they do provide a point. Or actually two points. The first one being that of course one could have rolled a character on a PvE server when beginning, if one at the release of the game fully understood WoW's concept of PvP (which also has changed over the course of WoW's life). The second one being the actual wording "roll PvE n00b" which I have seen repeatedly, which I find kind of funny since it comes across as an effective display of what actually drives the gankers: a feeling of superiority, being better than others even if the other parties have no way of hurting you back or defend themselves.

But still, I rolled PvP (because of friends, as described by others here). And I enjoy Battlegrounds, the occasional arena, even some mass fighting outside of KZ and the occasional random ambush. But in all these instances there is a big difference to most ganking: the levels. I don't mind PvP, but in most cases it is a case of PvL, plaver-versus-lowbies, and this is something which I *really* mind. As lvl70 you don't get to beat a group of lvl21-30 in AB, same for arenas, and with good reason.

HOWEVER, most debaters make an error in arguing that PvP=ganking. Even being on a PvP server, there would be numerous ways of preserving some type of outdoor PvP without allowing lvl70 players to harass people who are levelling. Killing low-level ganking does not equal killing all PvP on a server, although most gankers would have you believe so. I myself like the idea where you can only *initiate* combat (NOTE: I'm not excluding a right to defend oneself) with people within a certain level range from yours, and also where you completely disable the PvP flag up until say 15 levels below current level cap. But will Blizzard do something about this? Probably never. But one can always hope. Unfortunately the best way to campaign for changes I can come to think of is to start ganking full-time, so more and more players get fed up with the current system...
//Mr Carebear

[teck21]

Ganking is the way of the PvP server, and I guess that's the way it should be.

But as some have said, some kind of level restriction on who one can attack might be useful.

As with removal of terrain exploits to kill members of the opposing faction with impunity in areas like the skyguard ones. That's seriously annoying, and amazingly considered fine with Blizzard.

Hate the ganking, but I somehow would absolutely not trade my PvP status for a PvE one. The element of excitement and sometimes annoyance is actually quite enjoyable. Hmm..

[Urden]

If something is implemented, then it would blurr the lines of PVE and PVP, and suddenly the PVE-->PVP transfer issue becomes MORE an issue.

But hey, Bilizzard has nerfed everything else.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

No one likes to be ganked that's the plain and simple truth. Even those who roll PVP dont' want to be ganked. They want an exciting and challening game where you have to use more skill to get where you want to go.

Eliminating 70's camping teens who can't defend themselves will in no way make the game worse. So why not? Just because it's always been? Not logical.

One could abandon it, but that's not the point. The point is to take something good and make it better.

[rgirty]

No one likes to be ganked that's the plain and simple truth. Even those who roll PVP dont' want to be ganked. They want an exciting and challening game where you have to use more skill to get where you want to go.

Eliminating 70's camping teens who can't defend themselves will in no way make the game worse. So why not? Just because it's always been? Not logical.

One could abandon it, but that's not the point. The point is to take something good and make it better.

The difference between a lvl 70 char ganking a lvl 30-40 is not much different than a person in full vengeful s3 pvp gear ganking someone in their tailored epics.

Soon we'll see people asking blizzard to put in some kind of preventative measure that prevents people in arena gear from attacking people in non-arena gear.

Don't think this is true? Ask any spellfire/fsw wearing clothie how long they lasted against that hunter/lock/rogue/warrior or any other class who was in full s3, or s2/s3 mix a matter of seconds at best.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

The difference between a lvl 70 char ganking a lvl 30-40 is not much different than a person in full vengeful s3 pvp gear ganking someone in their tailored epics.

Soon we'll see people asking blizzard to put in some kind of preventative measure that prevents people in arena gear from attacking people in non-arena gear.

Don't think this is true? Ask any spellfire/fsw wearing clothie how long they lasted against that hunter/lock/rogue/warrior or any other class who was in full s3, or s2/s3 mix a matter of seconds at best.

You're really over reaching. And you didn't really counter my argument. You just deflected to a totally different subject.

I'm asking for one simple step that has to do with people killing greys, that's it. Again, how will making this step make the game worse? It won't. We can debate gear and epics later. That's off the table.

[Kugan]

You're really over reaching. And you didn't really counter my argument. You just deflected to a totally different subject.

I'm asking for one simple step that has to do with people killing greys, that's it. Again, how will making this step make the game worse? It won't. We can debate gear and epics later. That's off the table.

The problem is how you intend to do it. I think we can all agree that turning level 70's into chickens if they enter low level areas are out of the question :grin:. I don't want to be stuck in Outlands.

Changing it so that you can't attack grey players (or giving some kind of dishonour) also causes problems... what happens if the low levels attack you. Do you just stand there and take it?

Edit: I did like your other suggestion. But the problem also comes in: What happens if a low level repeatedly spit on you (and they will do it if you can't kill them). I'd like to just give them a whack for their troubles :)

[Ardani]

No one likes to be ganked that's the plain and simple truth. Even those who roll PVP dont' want to be ganked.

Wrong.

There are plenty of us who aren't precious about our pixels dying. I've been on voice and heard people burst out laughing as they get ganked, and that's often my attitude too. It's fun. As I said in the other thread, even getting corpse-camped can lead to good fun if you have enough social skills to make and rally some higher-level same-faction friends to your cause.

Just because you can't wrap your head around the mindset doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[rgirty]

You're really over reaching. And you didn't really counter my argument. You just deflected to a totally different subject.

I'm asking for one simple step that has to do with people killing greys, that's it. Again, how will making this step make the game worse? It won't. We can debate gear and epics later. That's off the table.

I'll explain it without the so called deflection.

People enjoy ganking, and world pvp thus they roll on pve servers.

If people didn't enjoy ganking or being ganked, they would remove themselves from it by transferring to a PvE server or rolling on a PvE server. Blizzard has given you this option.

Like it or not, WoW is a business. The business model is built around allowing players to do what they enjoy and giving people choices.

Gankers like to gank if this is removed, customers will be lost.

Gankees that don't like to gank have multiple options to remove themselves from it.

If you remove a pleasurable aspect of the game, those deriving pleasure from that aspect may stop paying to play.

Blizzard has already given players not 1, but 2 options to avoid being ganked.

However players now want to turn pvp servers into pvp servers that only allow pvp if players are of a certain level?

I'm sorry..but even the lowbie areas are protected from this, we have a small measure of this now. Designated more zones to only a certain range of players will not only remove $ from blizzard's pocket it will give the game less of a real world feel.

Back to my point.

The *grey getting killed has about the same chance as a person wearing tailored epics getting thrashed by an arena gear wearing player.

How are you going to make that fair? because believe it or not, if you care-bear the entire pvp server thats the next thing thats going to be asked for.

In WOTLK people who are on pvp servers who don't want to pvp (i still don't understand this) will point to the pvp zone and say *ALL pvp should happen there, remove pvp from the rest of the zones because it interferes with my enjoyment of the game. Then the player will back that up by saying *i don't want to roll on a pve server*

At the end of the day, blizzard gives gankees 2 choices, roll pve or xfer to a pve that should be more than enough.

If you really want to stay and play with friends then group with those friends or have some high level friends help you out. If they're worth staying on the server for surely they'll come to your aid if your being ganked that viciously.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Ok, I stand corrected, one guy likes to be ganked.

My solution was that you can't attack greys unless they attack you first. If they spit on you, spit on them back, or get on your epic mount and get out of the lowbe zone.

[rgirty]

Ok, I stand corrected, one guy likes to be ganked.

My solution was that you can't attack greys unless they attack you first. If they spit on you, spit on them back, or get on your epic mount and get out of the lowbe zone.

If you don't like it, there is a long long list of servers you can xfer to or re-roll on.

If people didn't like it they would leave, people have xferred due to ganking and will continue to do so.

Asking for ganking to be stopped on a pvp server is akin to jumping in the local swimming pool then complaining of the water being too wet.

[Kugan]

Ok, I stand corrected, one guy likes to be ganked.

My solution was that you can't attack greys unless they attack you first. If they spit on you, spit on them back, or get on your epic mount and get out of the lowbe zone.

Actually, if you look at the results, you will see that 17 people said it's fine like it is. That's more than half :laugh:

Getting out of the lowbie zone is not always an option. Sometimes I go there to watch a sunset, to drop in and say hi to a friend, or to mine. Now I have to leave.

I would prefer to be able to kill someone who annoys me (from the opposing faction). I can ignore people from my faction.

[Janfader]

I'm going to put this in the utmost realistic view of the matter:

The reason why people will say "no" are the ones who were ganked and now that they're lvl 60+ and doing their own ganking is just fine now.

People that say yes are the "carebears" or those who haven't reached a high level and are simply getting "pwned" all the time.

Yes, some of you that say no or yes have a different angle, but most of you know what I say is true.

I've already put a thread about a Police Status idea to prevent high leveled monkeys from ganking low levels.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

17 people wanted it to stay like it is, that doesn't mean 17 people like to be ganked over and over again.

PVP isn't that bad if left alone, I'm just trying to find a way to make a good thing better.

How about this. If you get ganked by the same guy three times in a row within a time frame then you get a special buff that makes you ungankable by that same guy for another set length of time? The first gank might make you laugh, but the 10th time I would assume isn't fun anymore.

Sure there's ways around it, if there's two 70's then they can take turns or something, so you get ganked 6 times. I'm just brain storming.

[xDarkDrifterx]

:banghead:

Last time I checked there are more than one server type for a reason . . .

I knew what I was in for when I rolled on a PVP server . . . no one likes being repeatedly camped (b/c it hurts my exp per hour) but that is life on a pvp server, and why you PVE people can't transfer =P

But surely there's a limit on what's fair and what isn't?

No, there's not, and there should never be, if people want fair then they can roll PVE.

[det]

You fail to notice that whatever Blizzard does, people will find ways to exploit it. Hell..I hear people say that ganking gets even more vicious on a PvE server. On a PvP server ppl have the option to KoS and mostly just go about their way. You see anyone flagged on a PvE server and it is insta-gib.

On the other hand, we have perma-flagged guilds on my PvE server who will go out of their way to stand in Questgivers, NPCs or jump in your face while you kill mobs in the hope for a AoE spell or a miss-click. Now THAT really pisses me off on a PvE server, which I chose for exactle that reason: Peace while questing.

And that is just what I mean by ppl finding ways to exploit things. If it is capped to 6 levels below you, hell..then Gank squads of 5 or 10 will be going around. If you wanna grief ppl, you find ways.

So you stay on a PvP server because of your friends. Well, stick around with them and find your luck in numbers. You love PvP but ony in BGs? Hell...by that rationale lets make all servers PvE and only fight in BGs. Oh..but wait...People whine about BG and arena imbalances as well...Can't win Blizzard, sorry.

At least on a PvP server I would argue, that it is war. Stop whining..seriously. You want to see what mindset a player on a PvP server could take? Here goes, it ain't pretty, but I am just in the mood:

"Take a look at the real world and see what war does to people. Kill them young so they cannot grow up to fight back. Gank them at lv 20, gank them long and hard and get them to re-roll on another server. I want my faction to be imbalanced and kill every newbie and low level until they are sick of it, cancel their game or transfer away from my server."

Hell..at least you can ress and play on. Not like you get looted..you don't even lose durability, just valuable gametime. Hmmm...it can't be THAT valuable, because...you guessed it...you are on a PvP server. AND YOU KNEW WHAT YOU DID WHEN YOU ROLLED THERE.

Don't tell me it is not valid to say "All is fair in PvP" because IT IS! What dou think why DHKs (dishonourable kills) have been disabled again? Not like all the whining didn't have an effect for some time and measures were introduced. Guess what? The next whining started "OMG...they hide behind Jason Lemmieux!!!!! Not fair!!!! We get DHKs"

See what I mean? Guess not or this topic wouldn't be at page 3 and growing.

Regards from a guy who deliberately rolled on a PvE server...for the very reasons that people now cry for a World PvP nerf.

[PlayThemAll]

17 people wanted it to stay like it is, that doesn't mean 17 people like to be ganked over and over again.

PVP isn't that bad if left alone, I'm just trying to find a way to make a good thing better.

How about this. If you get ganked by the same guy three times in a row within a time frame then you get a special buff that makes you ungankable by that same guy for another set length of time? The first gank might make you laugh, but the 10th time I would assume isn't fun anymore.

Sure there's ways around it, if there's two 70's then they can take turns or something, so you get ganked 6 times. I'm just brain storming.

Blizzard already has a system in place, it's called a "normal" realm.

Forgive my lack of sympathy but if you choose to play on a "PvP" server don't whine because someone elses idea of PvP is different then yours.

Level up and get some payback (or not) or transfer to a normal realm.

/rant

[Grantly]

I played on an RO private server for a long time before coming to WoW, there was world pvp everywhere but in towns and cities. The catch was that you couldn't touch somebody who wasn't within 8 lvls of yourself, a lower person can't start a fight with a higher person. It worked great, but thats not WoW.

I don't like getting ganked, but i ALWAYS get even. Having an alt hunter I find myself in zones where every monster is orange or red, and players around me are usually the same level as the npc's. So, as a 45 hunter, I quested in searing gorge where everything is high 40's and low 50's. Along comes a 52 shadow priest and ganks me, theres not much of a hope of getting even with my hunter... but i gots to get even. So I hop on one of my 70's and come kill him. And if hes no longer in the area I'll do a lap around the map on my epic mount and kill everybody I see.

I would be a sad panda if i couldn't touch him with my 70. So, I like things the way they are but its only because I have something to fall back on. If my hunter was my main I'd probably QQ all the way to 1k needles...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I believe the idea is much higher-level people killing much lower-level people who don't stand a chance. Not just party A attacking party B somewhere. "Ganking" to me has always implied a complete lack of a chance to even try to fight back, someone who has a significant edge resulting in outright overkill. And honestly, that is the #1 thing I hate about the PvP servers. I don't ming world PvP, I don't might sparring with/fighting people who are relatively matched up to me. I actually like the competitiveness of it. But what I don't like is if I wander around as a fresh level 18 character in contested territory like Stonetalon Mountains, and having some level 70 nitwit who is bored and feels like being a jerk just kill me and then continue to harass me the whole time. That, to me, isn't PvP, it is someone being the equivalent of a bully for no justifiable reason.

Personally, I wish there was a mechanic in-place to prevent this, to make it unappealing, and to prevent it from taking place. There isn't any, and in my experience, when I've tried out PvP servers, unless you happen to know some high level people who can possibly come in for an assist, people just end up mocking you for being a "noob" if you try to get help to dispatch the nuisance.

So honestly, I'd rather be on servers where I can PvP on my own terms, rather than have to live with people who have the freedom to continually be jerks and then defend it as "just part of being on a PvP server". As I've said in other threads, I see the PvP servers as "obligatory PvP", while the Normal servers are "voluntary PvP" -- I can choose to turn on my PvP tag and participate (which I often do), or, I can turn it off and prevent some overpowered nitwit with a thorn up his posterior from making it impossible for me to even get a single quest done.

And yes, I've tried PvP servers from time to time, since WoW launched. Inevitably, invariably, it always ends up like that. And, I just plain don't have the time or the patience to deal with such trash.

[Dustpile]

I know its a proud moment for some when they, as a high level, and without provocation, one shot a lower level.

That is all I have to say about that.

[Lothaer]

I know its a proud moment for some when they, as a high level, and without provocation, one shot a lower level.

That is all I have to say about that.

the reason i kill a low level whorde player when i see them is... "If the roles were reversed they'd do it to me".

my reasoning is just.

[Maticus]

The name Care Bear is being thrown around a lot. Resort to name-calling if you like, but I guess I just can't understand why people think it's fun to kill lowbies while they're leveling, even on a PvP server. By all means, killing toons around the same level would grant some satisfaction, but anything else is purely to inconvenience the other person.

Having said that, I can see rgirty's argument, that players like myself have options to remove ourselves from the situation. Unfortunately, everyone I know IRL who plays WoW plays it on the same PvP server, so I won't move. I'm just going to put up with it, because, as so many of you have pointed out... IT'S A PVP SERVER !!!1!!11

[dgrampa]

I voted yes because I think everyone should have to play the game the way I think it should be played. I don't care if I already have a choice to avoid ganking. I think everyone should be protected from ganking, even those that *think* they like the thrill of always being at risk. That type of thinking is clearly not acceptable because *I* don't think that way.

[sanderke]

I can only assume that the people that vote pro-ganking are more often on the dealing then receiving end of an epicced out 70 getting their jollies in pre-40 azeroth. That said, I'm happy you all think that way and love your PvP server so much, the less of you in WAR the better.

[det]

I can only assume that the people that vote pro-ganking are more often on the dealing then receiving end of an epicced out 70 getting their jollies in pre-40 azeroth. That said, I'm happy you all think that way and love your PvP server so much, the less of you in WAR the better.

Nope, I voted pro-ganking and I am on a PvE server. I just believe you should "eat what you ordered" as a german proverb goes.

[NOYB]

There are valid reasons for being able to gank.

Here's one. I'm in Un'Goro crater looking for thorium. Some 53 rogue walks by me (I can see him stealthed), I start mining the thorium... aggroes a Gorilla. Now the little rogue starts to mine the ore because I'm smacking the Gorilla.

On a PvP server I would have just squished the rogue like a bug. On a PvE server I have to watch him take the ore.

Just one example, but you get the idea. Killing lowbies isn't always about, "LOL I like killin' da lowbeez"! It can be a form of controlling territory.

PvP is for aggressive players that enjoy the challenge that being ganked represents. PvE is for players that don't want the threat of being ganked. They merely want to go about their quests unhindered by the opposing faction. I just think there's nothing worse than seeing someone of the opposite faction taking resources you fought for and there's nothing you can do about it.

[elsegundo]

I can only assume that the people that vote pro-ganking are more often on the dealing then receiving end of an epicced out 70 getting their jollies in pre-40 azeroth. That said, I'm happy you all think that way and love your PvP server so much, the less of you in WAR the better.my highest character is level 45. i love PvP. and ganking is fine with me. i get ganked way more often than i gank. maybe its because i play a gnome. who knows. i love it though. its fun. it not only makes me want to level more, but think of ways to gank them back even if they're a bit higher in the food chain.

I voted yes because I think everyone should have to play the game the way I think it should be played. I don't care if I already have a choice to avoid ganking. I think everyone should be protected from ganking, even those that *think* they like the thrill of always being at risk. That type of thinking is clearly not acceptable because *I* don't think that way.
huh??? i dont get what you're trying to say.

[sanderke]

Nope, I voted pro-ganking and I am on a PvE server. I just believe you should "eat what you ordered" as a german proverb goes.
I agree, but PvP != ganking.

PvP is being wary, knowing that an enemy might just be around the corner, that you'll have to be prepared for a fight or flight decision with every step you take.

What it's not is getting your head smashed in by some level 70 epicced-out social reject that gets a hard-on by killing helpless lowbies that can't fight or run away but only take stand (or rather lie) there and take it.

@ NOYB
I know there are valid reasons too but think of it this way, in return for getting to kill that lowbie 'stealing' your thorium, you in return would have been slaughtered hundreds of times by bored high levels on your road to 70.
Is that little bit of thorium worth all the harassment?

@elsegundo
If you really enjoy being ganked without being able to offer a decent fight or even the option of running away then be my guest, who am I to judge that?
All I can say is, most people are inherently opposed to being killed without being able to put up a fight.
And that's just what ganking is, preying on those that can't defend themselves.
In that context it's kinda like clubbing baby seals, only virtual.

[Ardani]

I can only assume that the people that vote pro-ganking are more often on the dealing then receiving end of an epicced out 70 getting their jollies in pre-40 azeroth.

The last time I ganked someone grey, I was level 42, and it was STV. Sure, I've killed people at 70, and even corpse camped some of them if they were especially vile critters, but none of them were grey to me. I just like the PvP server environment, and have absolutely zero sympathy for people who sign up for something and then complain that they got exactly what they knew they were signing up for.

I voted yes because I think everyone should have to play the game the way I think it should be played. I don't care if I already have a choice to avoid ganking. I think everyone should be protected from ganking, even those that *think* they like the thrill of always being at risk. That type of thinking is clearly not acceptable because *I* don't think that way.

Brilliant. :grin:

[Aerath]

yada yada yada

They have. It's called PvE servers.

/thread.

[gapid]

Whenever you initiate combat with a significantly lower level player, you should lose honor points, money, durability, reputation, etc. in exponential proportion to the disparity. This wouldn't apply if someone in the vicinity attacked you first. This solution allows you to still gank at will, but at a cost.

[NOYB]

I agree, but PvP != ganking.

PvP is being wary, knowing that an enemy might just be around the corner, that you'll have to be prepared for a fight or flight decision with every step you take.

What it's not is getting your head smashed in by some level 70 epicced-out social reject that gets a hard-on by killing helpless lowbies that can't fight or run away but only take stand (or rather lie) there and take it.


I kill someone = fair fight
I get killed = unfair!!!

Not only that, but the guy is a social reject that takes obscene pleasure in killing lowbies. Yep, that's it. You nailed the psychological profile perfectly. You should work for the F.B.I.


@ NOYB
I know there are valid reasons too but think of it this way, in return for getting to kill that lowbie 'stealing' your thorium, you in return would have been slaughtered hundreds of times by bored high levels on your road to 70.
Is that little bit of thorium worth all the harassment?


I wasn't "slaughtered" hundreds of times leveling up. I'm sensing a proclivity for exaggeration. And yes, it is my thorium. Might makes right. (Well, not on PvE servers.)


@elsegundo
If you really enjoy being ganked without being able to offer a decent fight or even the option of running away then be my guest, who am I to judge that?
All I can say is, most people are inherently opposed to being killed without being able to put up a fight.


You assume too much.


And that's just what ganking is, preying on those that can't defend themselves.
In that context it's kinda like clubbing baby seals, only virtual.

Except the baby seals on a PvP server agreed to be clubbed. See the difference?

[det]

In that context it's kinda like clubbing baby seals, only virtual.

Ahahahahahaha.... Drama Queen ^^

[mudphud]

The one change I think should be made is remove all level based chance to hit difference for pvp. Sure a 70 could still easily gank a low level but then enough low levels might be able to have an impact on a 70 possibly killing him if there are enough. Then a low level zone could have a shot at defense without having to get 70s to come in and save them. As it stands low level characters are lucky to get a single hit on a 70.

Also most people seem to refuse to acknowledge that a person might like world PvP against equal level toons but not be interested in the "PvP" of ganking in STV (either ganking or being ganked). Signing up for a pvp server you know you are going to be killed in pvp but hopefully more often in fights that you had a chance at winning not mostly ones that the outcome was never in question.

However, in my experience ganking isn't a huge problem. I have been ganked leveling my alt a fair number of times but not a huge number and rarely bother to get my 70 for help.

In short don't stop high levels from attacking anyone they want just remove level based hit chance for pvp so the low levels can at least hit back (even if their hits are weak).

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

There are valid reasons for being able to gank.

Here's one. I'm in Un'Goro crater looking for thorium. Some 53 rogue walks by me (I can see him stealthed), I start mining the thorium... aggroes a Gorilla. Now the little rogue starts to mine the ore because I'm smacking the Gorilla.

I don't see how that is ganking. Unless you extrapolate further, fighting someone for a node to me isn't ganking. Once again, there would need to be no justifiable reason for it to happen. If you can justify it, and it pans out logically, it works for me. Now, let's say you were Alliance, and you wandered into Thousand Needles. You see a Horde player level 21 or so killing a mob for his/her quest. You are level 62 or something. If you killed that Horde player, I would fail to see the justification other than for you to get your rocks off. There is no excitement (to me), if I was that Horde player. There is an annoying corpse run all because someone thought it was funny to disrupt me.

The same argument about nodes (like thorium nodes in your example) doesn't pan out... because while there are plenty of reasons for a higher level person to be getting thorium, there is very little reason for a higher-level person to be running around areas where there is no real value to be gained. The majority of Thousand Needles doesn't *have* Alliance quests... and most of them do not involve killing (other than Shimmering Flats) -- or at the very least, the killing is in a very specific location (like the wyverns). And, in those cases, I'd say it would fall under the realm of competition for resources... for the quests (since there are high-level people doing low-level quests for rep). But once again, if there is absolutely no justifiable reason for it, I find it annoying.

PvP is for aggressive players that enjoy the challenge that being ganked represents. PvE is for players that don't want the threat of being ganked. They merely want to go about their quests unhindered by the opposing faction. I just think there's nothing worse than seeing someone of the opposite faction taking resources you fought for and there's nothing you can do about it.

A little condescending in tone, but overall, I'll agree. I play on Normal (or, as I regularly put it, "voluntary PvP") servers because I don't want the nuisance of dealing with ganking. It isn't about me not being "up to the challenge" of being ganked, just that I find it a complete hassle. Especially as I might have only 1 or 2 hours to play, so I know what I am able to do in that timeframe, and ganking would prevent me from accomplishing my goals. To me, it wastes my time needlessly.

huh??? i dont get what you're trying to say.

I believe it is called sarcasm.

I kill someone = fair fight
I get killed = unfair!!!

Hardly my position on the subject. If the fight is a close match, I'll see it as fair. Or, if one side gets the drop on the other side, I'll take that into consideration as well. But, if there's 30+ levels difference, and the person initiating the fight (and killing the loser in 1 hit or so), and there is no justifiable reason for it (not competing for a resource), then it just, to me, becomes intentionally hassling someone else. Even if I did not mind being hassled in such a way myself, I couldn't just go do it to someone else, and the idea of "well, they'd do it to me if they had a chance" is basically attempting to justify your actions to yourself. That kind of reasoning fails for me.

Not only that, but the guy is a social reject that takes obscene pleasure in killing lowbies. Yep, that's it. You nailed the psychological profile perfectly. You should work for the F.B.I.

Heh... well... I personally find it a waste of time and energy, plain and simple. I don't make judgments on how other people play, or who they are. I just find ganking distasteful, and a waste. So, I don't play on a PvP server. I had a whole group of friends who joined one, but I didn't, because I found it somewhat vile and revolting. It just holds no interest to me. There is no "challenge" or "excitement" to me. There is more corpse runs, more time fighting other people, and less time to do what I'm far more interested in -- questing, exploration, and farming. If I want to PvP, I'll flip on my PvP flag, and go for it. I'll participate in world PvP, I'll jump into battlegrounds and Arena matches. I'll fight with people over nodes and mobs we're competing over. But I don't want to be bothered with the potential for being some bored player's playtoy who goes out of his/her way to waste my time.

Oh, and I voted "maybe". Because the part which bothers me, is closer to high levels killing low levels, but with certain circumstances. And it is because of those circumstances/situations, that I find PvP servers unappealing. But, at the same time, I acknowledge other people have other ways that they play the game than I do, and derive different kinds of enjoyment from it. As I don't play on a PvP server, the problems I'd otherwise face are not present, so it is inconsequential for me. But, at the same notion, I do think that maybe a review of the ideas, and potentially figuring out a clever way to reduce the unfavorable aspects (that is, those aspects of PvP servers I personally find unfavorable), while accentuating the more favorable aspects would be nice. But it is no skin off my back if it doesn't happen.

[elsegundo]

@ mudphud - totally agree. stop resisting my spells dammit!!

@sanderki - i never said i enjoyed "being ganked without being able to offer a decent fight or even the option of running away". i said i like PvP, and that ganking is fine with me. because.... its part of the game. its part of PvP. its what i realized i will probably have to deal with when i do join the PvP server. but i also know that i can also do the same things. i can also get help if i want to. im not crying about it.

@xlorep - i get it now! thanks!

[Magikhat]

Don't wanna get ganked? Roll PVE

Poll over

[Twoflower]

where is the roleplaying part in walking by someone of the other faction ( you are in war, remember ? ) and not be able to do him any harm ?

however, there is no practical way to implement some sort of gank protection. If you cannot atack the greys, they will come for you knowing that you cannot harm them. If you get a negative buff, loose reputation, get the attention of NPC's or a get dishonorable kill as in old times, people will protect their groups with a meatshield of low level chars which noone will dare to atack. happened before.

that said, i dont gank. i have 3 lvl 70's and i did not once "gank back". i believe in karma. Still, i like the thrill of walking around on a pvp server and knowing anything could happen. Sometimes i try to fight back, sometimes i just /golfclap. But this is my choice, it adds to the rather boring questing ( being the 4th and 5th toon leveling and all ).

What it's not is getting your head smashed in by some level 70 epicced-out social reject that gets a hard-on by killing helpless lowbies that can't fight or run away but only take stand (or rather lie) there and take it.



this is so ridiculous. vent your frustration elsewhere. no need to insult anyone who has better gear or a higher level than you. And it does not make us take you serious either.

[redrudy]

Get rid of it.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

where is the roleplaying part in walking by someone of the other faction ( you are in war, remember ? ) and not be able to do him any harm ?

Simple, there is an effective cease-fire on the war. Some skirmishes fire up, but there is not supposed to be direct, open combat. Familiar at all with Korea? Same kind of thing. The North Koreans and South Koreans/US Forces there are not supposed to have open conflict. They are prepared for war, and keep both sides "geared up" for it. And there are a few hotspots that break out, but for the most part, the two sides are supposed to not be openly fighting with each other.

however, there is no practical way to implement some sort of gank protection. If you cannot atack the greys, they will come for you knowing that you cannot harm them. If you get a negative buff, loose reputation, get the attention of NPC's or a get dishonorable kill as in old times, people will protect their groups with a meatshield of low level chars which noone will dare to atack. happened before.

True enough. At least, there is no practical solution from the given mindset. Re-evaluating the process from the ground up and approaching it from a completely different angle might result in a possible answer... but once again, there is the practicality problem. Which is why I remain on a Normal server.

that said, i dont gank. i have 3 lvl 70's and i did not once "gank back". i believe in karma. Still, i like the thrill of walking around on a pvp server and knowing anything could happen. Sometimes i try to fight back, sometimes i just /golfclap. But this is my choice, it adds to the rather boring questing ( being the 4th and 5th toon eleveling and all ).

I can totally understand the thrill part. I'd find that exciting. But that excitement gets utterly and completely squelched when it is that I'm ganked. It is me doing a corpse run. It is time taken away from the very limited amount of time I have available for WoW. It is someone effectively preventing me from doing what I set myself out to do for that day, slowing my progress with a particular character, and making everything a more extended timesink. For me, that outweighs any excitement potential from a PvP server.

[irogue]

I retired a 70 rogue on a PVE server and now I have 2 70s on a PVP server. The PVP server provides me more thrills than the PVE server.

I don't gank because I think it is wasting time and time is money (RL) or gold (in game)...

For low level toons, I would log on to my other toons if I got camped.

In farming area, my 70 rogue will pop out anytime when the punk is in low health...

I do find matured ppl won't gank or camp (not trying to insult anyone). What do you think?

[elsegundo]

I do find matured ppl won't gank or camp (not trying to insult anyone). What do you think?

for the most part i would agree. i wont insult anyone if they dont insult me first. i remember killing/ganking a priest killing in the same area as i was. killed her several times hoping that she'd get the picture that im in this area, if you want it, you'll have to kill me or wait. eventually she had a high level rogue kill me while i was in a fight with her. i think thats fair. but afterwards they spat on me, laughed and went away. i found her a second time hanging around the alliance base and i went after killing her again. again, the rogue came outta invisibility and killed me. not bad. all's fair. i went away for a while, quested elsewhere, then came back and found her leaving her killing area (the same area we were fighting over before) and killed her. spat on her, and went on my way. i felt that i was justified to spit on her, not because she had the rogue help her out, but because she purposely baited me twice, and spat on me. so yea, i'll insult someone if they do it first.

[irogue]

for the most part i would agree. i wont insult anyone if they dont insult me first. i remember killing/ganking a priest killing in the same area as i was. killed her several times hoping that she'd get the picture that im in this area, if you want it, you'll have to kill me or wait. eventually she had a high level rogue kill me while i was in a fight with her. i think thats fair. but afterwards they spat on me, laughed and went away. i found her a second time hanging around the alliance base and i went after killing her again. again, the rogue came outta invisibility and killed me. not bad. all's fair. i went away for a while, quested elsewhere, then came back and found her leaving her killing area (the same area we were fighting over before) and killed her. spat on her, and went on my way. i felt that i was justified to spit on her, not because she had the rogue help her out, but because she purposely baited me twice, and spat on me. so yea, i'll insult someone if they do it first.

Hmmmm.... I am too old to spit on or rofl at ppl after I defeat them...

:smiley:

[Cakes]

It goes against the entire premise of an MMO game to say "transfer servers" or "re-roll on a different server" as a viable solution.

The POINT of an MMO is to establish relationships with other players and work as a team to accomplish the goals of the game. Thus a solution that is based in either breaking or hindering these relationships is counter-intuitive, and unacceptable.

The fact is, Blizzard has built the game around the premise of establishing successful relationships with other players - the entire endgame is pretty dead without it (the percentage of level 70, unguilded, solo quest only players is guaranteed to be low). Even take guilds out of the picture, a player is still severely limited in endgame and even midgame success unless they build some rudimentary relationships with other players.

I think a penalty for world combat with other players beyond a comfortable range of levels is completely viable, and acceptable. A simple algorithm that states PvP combat attacks diminish by X% once your opponent is 10 levels or more beneath you is acceptable. This would still support battlegrounds which are on a 10 level platform already. As the gap between the higher level player and the lower level player increases, so does the damage the higher level player can inflict. This means a level 70 still has a solid advantage against a level 61, but becomes more evenly matched against lower levels. If implemented correctly, this could even work to bring all levels of players to a fair and equal combat experience in pvp. This means that the level 70 is reduced to comparable combat damage of his opponent (if a level 30 hits for 125 damage on average - so does the 70). Other factors need to be incorporated- but it would leverage the damage algorithms already in place for the game. This would not eliminate ganking as a pasttime, just level the playing field for all levels of players.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Look, the Normal servers were the first kind of servers that Blizzard made for WoW. The PvP servers were made in order to appease those who wanted "no-holds-barred" PvP where ganking freely was an option. If you don't want that, then yes, don't play on the PvP servers. And, last I checked, you could transfer a character from a PvP realm to a Normal or Roleplay realm without a problem (it is the reverse that isn't allowed).

I will have to agree with the sentiment that if you play on the PvP servers, you basically had decided to at least put up with the ganking. As I've said before, the PvP (and RP/PvP) servers are "enforced" or "obligatory" PvP. By choosing to play on one, you gave up your freedom of choice as to whether to participate in PvP or not. If you want it to be optional, or voluntary PvP, then you should have picked a Normal or Roleplay server, since that is what those servers are (I still hold that in WoW, there is no such thing as a PvE-based server, all servers are PvP-based, it is just that two of them are obligatory PvP, the other two are voluntary; if there was a truly PvE server, then ther would be no option for PvP at all, and most likely Horde and Alliance would be fully able to work together on everything).

If you are on a PvP server, you chose to be there... every choice has its consequences.

[rgirty]

The name Care Bear is being thrown around a lot. Resort to name-calling if you like, but I guess I just can't understand why people think it's fun to kill lowbies while they're leveling, even on a PvP server. By all means, killing toons around the same level would grant some satisfaction, but anything else is purely to inconvenience the other person.

Having said that, I can see rgirty's argument, that players like myself have options to remove ourselves from the situation. Unfortunately, everyone I know IRL who plays WoW plays it on the same PvP server, so I won't move. I'm just going to put up with it, because, as so many of you have pointed out... IT'S A PVP SERVER !!!1!!11

Its bullying...ganking is bullying, the world is full of bullies. People enjoy bullying others.

I hate ganking, but alas its part of the game.

[Shellar]

While I'm no fan of ganking (neither the ganker's sadictic power rush nor the gankee's masochistic guilt trip feel appealing to me), I don't think that a mechnical restriction on level range would be a good solution to this problem.

Personally, I'd just make all characters of the opposing faction display as ?? skull-bosses, regardless of the actual level difference.

[Aerath]

While I'm no fan of ganking (neither the ganker's sadictic power rush nor the gankee's masochistic guilt trip feel appealing to me), I don't think that a mechnical restriction on level range would be a good solution to this problem.

Personally, I'd just make all characters of the opposing faction display as ?? skull-bosses, regardless of the actual level difference.

Nice, but wouldn't do anything, which you know as well as I do.

I don't need to see someone's level to be able to tell what level they'd roughly be. Gear is a dead giveaway. Sometimes literally so, I suppose, in this particular context.

[dwarfenhelm]

blizzard actually gave 2 friends of mine an official warning othr day for so called ganking. the alliance did its usual and raided cross roads on a (pve normal server) and my m8s t5/6 shad priest and hunter helped sort out the alliance until they came across a mage afk and not in pvp. so they had a duel next to the mage and laid snake traps the snakes attacked the mage and after 5 or 6 traps they had killed the mage. so then for a laugh they headed to goldshire and alongside a bit of pvp they killed many an alliance with the traps then along came blizzard and warned them to stop b4 they had a temp ban.
though my mains are alliance if the people using this trick where alliance then i doubt anything would have been said and the horde would just have killed the 2 players and left it at that.
also no matter what level they are if i see a horde in pvp on the pve server then i will try my best to kill them if they come back and im still in area i will kill them again. i dont go looking for pvp fights but if players want to be in pvp then they must accept that someone will try to kill them

[Baboon]

Personally I would like a PvP server with only fair fights. That's impossible, so I'll settle for PvE now. So I'd say keep ganking like it is, a lot of people seem to like it.

[sparklebunny]

I read this whole thread and see both sides. I am a PVEer - I am not a big fan of PVP so I am happy in my "safe haven" :). I don't care for the ganking and thus don't roll on a PVP server. If they "fixed" it - and I agree it would be tough and exploits would come as quick - then maybe.

NOYB one thing to consider with your analogy of the guy stealing your vein....what if it was your own faction? Then you still get to sit there and watch him steal it...if it is the other then yeah it is territorial but if it is your own then regardless of PVE or PVP it doesn't matter. See honestly I'd be more interested in PVP sometimes if I could beat the crap out of my own faction. I tend to have less issues with Horde people then I do with my own Alliance (granted PVE server).

For the same reason that a lot of PVPers think all PVEers are "carebears" is the same that a lot of PVEers think PVPers are "bullies". If it was a fair fight - like in a battleground - and I lost sure...but if I am a level 20 and a 70 comes along and one-shots me where's the challenge?

See the same argument for ganking exists from this - well it happened to me so I am "returning the favor". It's like when that new person in general chat asks a legitimate question and all the 70s say "L2P noob"...well isn't that what he is trying to do. These were the same people who asked those same questions when they were that level and they got dumped on like that so when they get to 70 - instead of helping - they decide to be jerks to those people "because it was done to me"....it's a viscious cycle. I don't agree with ganking because I don't think it is very challenging.....but again I am on a PVE server for that same reason.

Again I am not asking for ganking to be fixed because I am sure it would be exploited, and again I am very happy on my PVE server...I just wanted to post a couple points on this issue is all.

[moopy]

To be honest, I'd be amused if they did fix it, as the sort of people who it'd annoy most are exactly the sort that I'd rather see flounce off in a sulk, as they don't add much to the quality of the playerbase. Ganking doesn't take much skill, intelligence or tactical acumen, just a fuelled-up ROFLcoptar.

Having had many fun hours playing my hordie on a PvP server, I'm quite aware that it's possible to be largely peaceful in a PvP environment, without being incapable. It's that "walk softly and carry a big stick" thing. You really do have to wonder about the stick size of those people who hang around STV trying to pick on people 30 levels below them.. :)

However, I don't see a viable way of "fixing" it, people will always behave like assclowns if they can find a way to do so. Sad but true. However, as I said, it would be amusing.

[dgrampa]

blizzard actually gave 2 friends of mine an official warning othr day for so called ganking. the alliance did its usual and raided cross roads on a (pve normal server) and my m8s t5/6 shad priest and hunter helped sort out the alliance until they came across a mage afk and not in pvp. so they had a duel next to the mage and laid snake traps the snakes attacked the mage and after 5 or 6 traps they had killed the mage. so then for a laugh they headed to goldshire and alongside a bit of pvp they killed many an alliance with the traps then along came blizzard and warned them to stop b4 they had a temp ban.
though my mains are alliance if the people using this trick where alliance then i doubt anything would have been said and the horde would just have killed the 2 players and left it at that.
also no matter what level they are if i see a horde in pvp on the pve server then i will try my best to kill them if they come back and im still in area i will kill them again. i dont go looking for pvp fights but if players want to be in pvp then they must accept that someone will try to kill them


They were warned because they were exploiting game mechanics, not because it was considered ganking.

[Janfader]

Wow, seven pages and everyone keeps going in circles about the topic.

Some conclusions and let the record show on the votes, that ganking on low levels is a problem - thus we paying subscribers want a much needed change IMO. The low level ganking is god damn problem and I'm sure most PvP players first experience on the PvP server gets pretty pisssed off. The constant bullying is a problem. Constant camping of corpses is a problem. Cry babies is a problem. Society in general in a problem... you get my drift.

[rgirty]

Wow, seven pages and everyone keeps going in circles about the topic.

Some conclusions and let the record show on the votes, that ganking on low levels is a problem - thus we paying subscribers want a much needed change IMO. The low level ganking is god damn problem and I'm sure most PvP players first experience on the PvP server gets pretty pisssed off. The constant bullying is a problem. Constant camping of corpses is a problem. Cry babies is a problem. Society in general in a problem... you get my drift.

Apparently the real problem is that people don't understand what a pvp server means.

If we're going to have this change we need to just make all servers PvE.

You know what a pvp server means when you roll on it, if you want to claim ignorance blizzard GIVES YOU THE OPTION to pay $10 and go to a normal pve realm.

Why is this so hard to understand?

If you say "i have made friends I can't leave my pvp server" then you are making the CHOICE to stay in that environment.

I cannot understand why someone making friends = blizzard has to change the entire pvp mechanic so that you don't have to take option #1 or even #2 to prevent from being ganked.

I've read every post here, and I just don't get it.

[Aerath]

Wow, seven pages and everyone keeps going in circles about the topic.

Some conclusions and let the record show on the votes, that ganking on low levels is a problem - thus we paying subscribers want a much needed change IMO. The low level ganking is god damn problem and I'm sure most PvP players first experience on the PvP server gets pretty pisssed off. The constant bullying is a problem. Constant camping of corpses is a problem. Cry babies is a problem. Society in general in a problem... you get my drift.

Eonar Normal Medium -> How can someone on a PVE server say that ganking on a PVP server is out of hand when they don't even participate on said servers ?

That'd be like me saying that PvE servers are boring like hell because there's no chance to get jumped. (Minor exception being that I do have a few chars on a PvE server which I never leveled too high for that exact reason.)

And this I feel is distorting the entire poll. People talking about stuff they apparently know bugger all about.

[moopy]

Wow, seven pages and everyone keeps going in circles about the topic.

Some conclusions and let the record show on the votes, that ganking on low levels is a problem - thus we paying subscribers want a much needed change IMO. The low level ganking is god damn problem and I'm sure most PvP players first experience on the PvP server gets pretty pisssed off. The constant bullying is a problem. Constant camping of corpses is a problem. Cry babies is a problem. Society in general in a problem... you get my drift.

We could just kill them all and let God/Bob/Vishnu/FSM/whatever sort 'em out.

However, I guess that re-instating DKs for people many levels lower would help- maybe only "proccing" if you killed the same person a few times within an hour- to avoid the "griefer lowbie" phenomenon. Remember, people will always find a way to be assclowns if you don't watch it- and this includes the sort of lowbie who wants to grow up to corpse camp lowbies themselves.

Meantime, let people rage about it. Gank my lowbies or their quest NPCs and I'll call in the cavalry. Leave me be, and I'll return the favour.


And this I feel is distorting the entire poll. People talking about stuff they apparently know bugger all about.

Come now, dearest darling Aerath. Since when has that been a factor around here? Never seen people butting in on a discussion of a t6 bossfight to tell all the participants that they're all wrong, and are noobs, and should learn from the experience gained from "raids" on Crossroads or Blood Furnace, or that they are closed-minded because they won't consider mongoose a viable hunter enchant? (Wall of text crits you for 65535 holy damage.. aaaand breathe.)

Ignorance is bliss, don't ruin the day of the blissful ones :-)

[Dhoum]

As with Baboon and Moopy, I would love to play on a server that instigated DKs or some similar penalty for ganking. Maybe the RPPvP servers could be a place for a "level playing-board" PvP game. As it is, I don't really enjoy playing on PvP at present so I stick to my gank-free RP realms.

I voted "maybe" because the key problem is with attacking greys ... I'm not really sure what any other definition would be. Folks who voted "yes", what were you thinking of in this context?

[PlayThemAll]

The game is called world of Warcraft after all?

I think they have made a decent attempt to provide environments for different playstyles. I've played on both and see the benefits and drawbacks of both.

Yes, there are some exploits being used on the current PvE servers, but for the most part they are pretty secure and provide a relaxed if not sterile playing environment. (BTW I agree the snake trap bug is lame and it's taking them too long to fix it)

I don't see getting ganked by a level ?? any different then getting stomped on by a level ?? elite. It's sometimes frustrating but I wouldn't change it for the anything. It's what makes the PvP server a challenge to level on. Being on edge and having to stay alert is what makes the game enjoyable to a lot of us. If I didn't have the constant thought that I could be ganked at any time, the game would lose all of it's challange and excitment for me.

I leveled one toon to 70 and many many toons to 30-40 on PvP servers and have never had it soo bad that I couldn't play. I think a lot of people are exaggerating how bad it is. On the few times I did get griefed, I either played an alt for a few minutes while the ganker got bored or I turned the tables and kept going after him until he got tired of killing me (if you are close to a GY this can be actually be fun sometimes)

This is like the twinks debate. neither side will concede so it just goes on and on and on and .........


Edit: To those of you so oppsed to ganking, why do you stay on a PvP server? Why continue in an environment that is so harse when there are other options?

[Elly]

I imagine it's to take part in PvP play. There's no PvP in ganking.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I imagine it's to take part in PvP play. There's no PvP in ganking.

+1 well said

[Aerath]

I imagine it's to take part in PvP play. There's no PvP in ganking.

PvP: player vs player

There is nothing said about "Equal Level vs Equal Level" or "Warlocks can't participate because they take a raid to kill".

Like it or not, even that gray is a player. As is the 70.

Whether or not they're capable players, epeen waving weenies, people in t6 who got tired, people in one piece of welfare epics, a level 19 twink vs a level 39 character in STV or whatever...

It doesn't matter.

The definition of a PvP server is: One player can fight another, of the opposing side, at pretty much all times.

[PlayThemAll]

I imagine it's to take part in PvP play. There's no PvP in ganking.

Differences in opinion. As stated before, everyone has their own idea of PvP. Personally I love the unrestriced, no holds barred version available on the PvP realms. As much as I love the game, the PvE portion is quite easy, the constant threat of the gank or being jumped is what makes the game exciting.

There's plenty or world PvP going on in PVP realms. It's not all ganking all the time. It's easy to quest for hours without being ganked and all the while partaking on the occasional PvP squirmish with people of the same level range.

I'm leveling an UD lock on one PvP server and a Human on another, levels 36 and 37 respectivly (Anderhol/Crushridge). Every time I play them I engage in world PvP with people near my level. I get ganked maybe once a session or two but not really that often. Some area's are known gank havens, such as STV, Hillsbrad and Arathi, but for the most part it's not bad. Compared to how bad it was leveling pre TBC, the old world is pretty quiet now.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

My overall problem with ganking is I perceive PvP as something akin to a competitive sport. And, when watching one, like American Football, or Rugby, the game is a good game when the two sides are relatively evenly matched. The game tends to suck when they aren't.

Ganking, that is, someone high level, like 60+, killing someone level 15 - 25, to me would be like a Rugby or American Football match between a professional team, and a team of 9-year-olds. Who is going to win is a foregone conclusion, there is no sport, no excitement in it. Participant or observer both are somewhat ripped off in th experience. That is what I tend to see ganking as... a lose-lose, dull and lifeless experience. Who cares if the higher level wins? It isn't like the lower-level person ever had a chance.

[selone_orc]

I have a 70 on a pve server and a 70 on a pvp server. I find some arguments on both sides ridiculous. Not many signed up on a pvp server to be ganked, most doing it for the risk, challenge, the world pvp etc. I levelled a pvp character basically to see how difficult it was, it wasn't btw. Saying reroll PvE is ridiculous as it it doesn't have anything to do with the poll about ganking. It's just a way to deride someone's argument without having to explain yourself.
One good point the 'pro gankers' made is if you start to make rules about high level characters not being able to go to certain zones, or not being able to attack certain people you can create certain issues.
A level 70 not able to go to STV f.ex couldn't do the fishing contest, couldn't help out a mate, couldn't level secondary skills efficiently, couldn't retaliate againt opposite faction idiot's, couldn't visit old haunts or farm certain materials.
Whilst I'm someone that is personally not very fond of gankers, I think the problem is exagerated (don't go into stv at peaktimes on your own folks) and isn't speaking that harmful (you don't lose dur or items as said). I have to stay the status quo is about right as I worry any possible changed might mess things up a bit more. The not being able to go to low level zones is an awful idea and just wouldn't work for WoW, how the hell woudl you level cooking for instance at high levels without having to make low level farming alts or buy low level charcters items.
One last point,why the hell is darkshire contested?

BTW as a point of information for me ganking is killing someone that can't effectively fight back or realistically win, thats attacking someon who is very much lower level, or very hurt or fighting mob's. It' a grey area for me whether a very well equipped 70 attacking a fresh at 70 in green's is ganking. And as a BTW wearing gladiator gear for ganking isn't as good as wearing the top end pve gear generally speaking as you do more damage in pve gear, yet survive and last worse. If you're ganking you're trying to do as much damage as possible quickly and ideally without them being able to fight effectively.

[Cakes]

I think a lot of posters on this thread misunderstand what the subject is. It is not a blanket statement trying to nerf open pvp. It is simply an attempt to level the playing field for characters of different experience levels who engage in combat.

Almost all of the anti-ganking responses are from posters who say they LIKE pvp, they just prefer a fair fight.

What's wrong with that? And why shouldn't that be a valid enhancement request?

I enjoy pvp encounters with other players of similar experience level. Even within 10 levels above me, I will give it a go and thoroughly enjoy the attempt (and rarely the win!). But when it's a pure gank (lvl 70 vs. lvl 30), there's no fun, it's pointless, and just a waste of my time. Do I cry about it? No. I understand it happens. However, would I prefer it if there could be some kind of mechanic in place that would make that encounter more of a fair fight? Absolutely!

[det]

Actually come to think of it....this topic is like 2years late. Yes, there are new players, but most people that I chat with while levelling on of my alts (I have 1 of each class) are people in a similar situation as I am. Taking a break from raiding or a lv 70 main, checking other classes out.

So in my eyes, a good deal of players who has been levelling in the last 2 years is actually levelling alts. We pretend it is just poor baby seals, innocent and all who level. But maybe it is the lv 70 who ganked YOU yesterday and now meets karma on his lv 32 in STV ;)

At least we are having a topic again where everybody can get enflamed about ^^

[Aerath]

I think a lot of posters on this thread misunderstand what the subject is. It is not a blanket statement trying to nerf open pvp. It is simply an attempt to level the playing field for characters of different experience levels who engage in combat.

Almost all of the anti-ganking responses are from posters who say they LIKE pvp, they just prefer a fair fight.

What's wrong with that? And why shouldn't that be a valid enhancement request?

I enjoy pvp encounters with other players of similar experience level. Even within 10 levels above me, I will give it a go and thoroughly enjoy the attempt (and rarely the win!). But when it's a pure gank (lvl 70 vs. lvl 30), there's no fun, it's pointless, and just a waste of my time. Do I cry about it? No. I understand it happens. However, would I prefer it if there could be some kind of mechanic in place that would make that encounter more of a fair fight? Absolutely!

Lessee - you are in STV. Bad choice, I know, but bear with me.
You start there at level 31, killing young tigers and minding your own business.
In that same STV is a bad alliance/horde, level 45 - he's questing there as well (not at all unlikely, given the quests there), spots you and kills you.

You have no chance, despite it being 'fair' world pvp and despite both being at proper place for your level.

What's the difference with the 70 who comes down to help his guildy's alt (you, at level 31) and all of a sudden can't retaliate because there's some arbitrary rule in effect stating he can't kill someone that's is lower level to him ?

Would the level 45 be restricted as well ? Despite the 31 being gray to him, both are in an appropriate zone for their level.

Should we make everything below level 50 a safe haven, not unlike Shattrath ? Why stop there ? Why not make it 60 ? Heck, why not decide to make a full server where you can avoid being attacked at all costs ?

Oh wait... :ponder:

[det]

To all of you anti-gankers, another thought just occured to me. Sometimes I am so pissed off by idiots of my own faction that I want to be able to gank THEM TOO:

[moopy]

Ganking, that is, someone high level, like 60+, killing someone level 15 - 25, to me would be like a Rugby or American Football match between a professional team, and a team of 9-year-olds.

Ok, I know it's wrong of me, but the mental image made me cackle.

det,

I always find people of my own faction more annoying, as I can read their moronic drivel. I am so with you- and many's the time I've wished that I could gank people of my own faction, possibly with the assistance of the opposite one.

[elsegundo]

If i were to encounter someone 10 levels above me, i would not want to fight him at an even level. i think it would be unfair that he's spent more time leveling to have to face someone who didnt gain the extra 10 levels to be at his level, and be able to fight in an "even" match. i think its fair that the higher level guy should have more damage, should have more health, etc. but i do not think he should be able to "resist" my spells or attacks. that would be a good PvE feature to keep low levels from entering high level zones and exploiting some game mechanic to kill mobs. that is the only thing in PvP that i would want to change. everythng else is pretty fair.

[mesonm]

I think a lot of posters on this thread misunderstand what the subject is. It is not a blanket statement trying to nerf open pvp. It is simply an attempt to level the playing field for characters of different experience levels who engage in combat.


I think YOU miss the point....Narrowing PVP to your definition is less than what happens now, which is indeed a nerf of pvp as it exists today.

[PlayThemAll]

To all of you anti-gankers, another thought just occured to me. Sometimes I am so pissed off by idiots of my own faction that I want to be able to gank THEM TOO:

I'll second that. They usually annoy me much more then the other faction. (regardless of what faction I'm playing)

[rgirty]

I imagine it's to take part in PvP play. There's no PvP in ganking.

There is when the gankee has either:

1. A main camped nearby.

2. Actual friends that will come help him out.


The same could be said about the topic people keep ignoring.

A lvl 30 char has the same chance against a lvl 70 char as a lvl 70 char in tailored epics has against a lvl 70 char in full s2/s3 arena gear.

[caldepen]

There is no such thing as ganking, either you play in a realm that allows pvp or you don't and seeing as how you had a choice at the beginning which system you preferred, to complain and whine about it now seems silly and immature. Besides you can still migrate if you think you made a bad decision. This is a none issue.

[Cooney]

World pvp is one thing, ganking etc all go hand in hand with that.

I would love if for once the guards in area's they are placed to specifically prevent ganking in those area's worked. Code them to hit for 10k, unlimited range net/shot. let them ignore los. the flying into ogrila having some douche sitting on some random spike killing you as you land is not pvp.

[Janfader]

Eonar Normal Medium -> How can someone on a PVE server say that ganking on a PVP server is out of hand when they don't even participate on said servers ?

That'd be like me saying that PvE servers are boring like hell because there's no chance to get jumped. (Minor exception being that I do have a few chars on a PvE server which I never leveled too high for that exact reason.)

And this I feel is distorting the entire poll. People talking about stuff they apparently know bugger all about.

Sighs...

My mains are on a PvE server.

I have two horde 70's on a PvP server.

Don't assume :P I've been playing this game for a long time now. Too long.

[fiyahball]

If you don't like pvp get on the carebear server please. This shouldn't even be in discussion, just because some people whine about getting ganked at low levels doesn't mean we should removed ganking. I dealt with it leveling and so did every other 70 in this game, if I re roll an alt I will happily deal with it again. Alliance vs Horde, it's the whole point of this game remove that and we might as well get joint faction questlines. Half the excitement for me is ganking 3-4 60's just in hopes that a 70 will come and help them out and make for some fun world PVP.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Well, if Blizzard wanted to revise the PvP rules for PvP servers, I personally would rather see them make a new server type, and allow PvP players to transfer their characters to it if they wanted.

I have to agree with the so-called "pro ganking" posters here, in that a blanket policy along the lines of comparing level difference, etc, is *not* the solution. In fact, there isn't a real clear, cut and dry solution.

A blanket policy is probably the worst way to affect any kind of change like this. There would need to be actually a rather elaborate set of rules to handle the solution, and it would not be an easy set of logic, but I think it is possible (as one of my specialties is simplifying/figuring out complex logic and making it effective in code, I have a good feeling that there is a workable solution).

Once again, it would not be easy, as it would be a process of constructing the conditions that would constitute "ganking" rather than those conditions which would not, compiling them together (I'm thinking something along the lines of running integrals on boolean algebra). It would take quite a bit of effort, but I think a system that would mostly function on protecting against ganking, but at the same time permitting PvP to remain as open as possible would be able to be derived from it.

Now, I also think that it probably is not very practical to accomplish this. I do think that if PvP, the excitement from it, etc, would be available, yet flat out ganking was curbed, you'd see a good number of people on the Normal servers move to those, and probably a number of the people from the PvP servers move to them as well. It is a matter of striking a balance in the mechanics. It isn't about "well, if you are 20 levels higher than you should be in the zone, or you attack someone 20 levels lower than you, etc, etc." -- because, as I said before, and other have iterated, those kinds of flat, artificial rules structures are too unconditionally restrictive. It would need to be a system that is dynamic, and flexible, taking in a number of different variables and producing a result that the system can then use to flag if something is ganking or not... which is not straight-forward, or simple.

[Shellar]

The game is called world of Warcraft after all?
Yes; however, it is still a game - not an actual theatre of war.

[clevins]

If you don't like pvp get on the carebear server please. This shouldn't even be in discussion, ...


And your immature response is why I don't roll pvp even though it intrigues me. I don't have an issue with world pvp... I do have an issue with guys stroking themselves and acting like what they do in WoW actually matters at all to their self-worth.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

If you don't like pvp get on the carebear server please.

Unnecessarily insulting and crude.

This shouldn't even be in discussion, just because some people whine about getting ganked at low levels doesn't mean we should removed ganking.

Still crude, and definitely a superior attitude as if your personal opinion on gameplay is the only valid one.

I dealt with it leveling and so did every other 70 in this game, if I re roll an alt I will happily deal with it again.

And thus, by implication, anyone else who wants to be on a PvP server, must as well, even if they don't like it? Sort of a "suck it up and get over it" sense of superiority?

Alliance vs Horde, it's the whole point of this game remove that and we might as well get joint faction questlines.

All or nothing reasoning is the sign of an extremist. You are claiming that either you accept ganking or want the complete opposite of PvP in every way, to the point of dropping the factions idea completely. When the people making arguments in this thread have all basically proposed that there definitely is a gray area in there.


Half the excitement for me is ganking 3-4 60's just in hopes that a 70 will come and help them out and make for some fun world PVP.

And thus the truth of your statements so far comes out. You feel threatened by the discussion here, because it threatens the way you personally play. Mind you, there have been points presented that would not interfere with your particular playstyle what so ever, but hey, it's better to be crude and offensive, overstating your position and talking in all-or-nothing language, because after all, the point of a forum is a shouting contest, right?

Oh wait.... it isn't.

Please, we don't need that kind of childishness here. It might be an acceptable mode of discussion on other forums, but this community tries to step up to the line and be a bit more civil and considerate if possible. Not unnecessarily offensive when the discussion was most definitely not exploding at that level of anger you presented.


For the record: I think most of the points of contention people have here, is that the term "ganking" is too vague a term, and easily interpreted a number of different ways resulting in confusion, and people are arguing for or against two potentially different things. I think the average "pro-ganking" person in this thread has a definition of the word that is not the same definition of the word that the average "anti-ganking" person in this thread has. I think that to the average anti-ganking poster here, the term is an exclusive one, about a very specific circumstance. But for the average pro-ganking poster here, it is an inclusive term, used to define a wide variety of scenarios and situations that includes what the anti-gankers here are saying.

I honestly think we're just not all on the same "sheet of music" (to use a phrase), and are arguing two separate points. I think in actuality, the problem rests somewhere between the two definitions (the exclusive and inclusive one), which both sides have presented good arguments to support their respective cases, but the arguments are not really opposed to each other as much as seems to be people think they are.

[Aerath]

And your immature response is why I don't roll pvp even though it intrigues me. I don't have an issue with world pvp... I do have an issue with guys stroking themselves and acting like what they do in WoW actually matters at all to their self-worth.

That's not it clevins - PvP server people just get fed up with the whining.

If you don't want PvP, get the hell off our server. If you do want PvP, welcome to [This Server - PvP].

This topic comes up time and time again, mostly either from someone who really shouldn't have been on a PvP server to begin with (see: OP) or from someone on a PvE server.

As the saying goes: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen".
No more no less, really.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

That's not it clevins - PvP server people just get fed up with the whining.

If you don't want PvP, get the hell off our server. If you do want PvP, welcome to [This Server - PvP].

What if I'd like PvP, but for it to be a little reasonable? What, am I just plain out of luck? "Sorry, but you only get ganking, or you don't be on a pvp server period" seems a bit strict, and a bit too much. I think, honestly, that there could be something done to improve the situation -- not necessarily changing the PvP servers as they exist now (so it isn't forcing anyone to change what they are doing) -- but a new kind of server, one that works toward having the PvP, but cutting down and hopefully removing the parts that irritate enough people to either a) complain about it while on a PvP server, or b) don't play on a PvP server because of it, but would like to be able to play on a PvP server all the same.

This topic comes up time and time again, mostly either from someone who really shouldn't have been on a PvP server to begin with (see: OP) or from someone on a PvE server.

As the saying goes: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen".
No more no less, really.

Actually, I think there is another solution. Do I think that it is necessarily a practical solution, not so much. But, I think that a solution exists. I don't necessarily think Blizzard would implement it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say "well, then it doesn't work period".

[Aerath]

What if I'd like PvP, but for it to be a little reasonable?

Welcome to the PvE servers, where you can PvP when you decide to.
BGs and Arenas are there for your enjoyment, as is the /pvp toggle.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Welcome to the PvE servers, where you can PvP when you decide to.
BGs and Arenas are there for your enjoyment, as is the /pvp toggle.

Which is why I play on the Normal servers. But, what if, I am looking for the excitement that PvP'ers rave about, but without the irritation of being ganked needlessly? I'd say it isn't unreasonable to want that. And it doesn't mean I necessarily want to play on a Normal server, but at the same time, I don't want to be the quarterback of the team of 9-year-olds going up against one of the teams of the NFL either... In other words, I'd like a server where there was support for more sportsman-like PvP.

Now, I've already explained what I mean by being "ganked". Pretty much every situation that the "pro-gankers" have presented in this thread does not constitute ganking. If there is a justifiable reason, I just plain don't see it as ganking. But, I also don't see "because so-and-so was bored" as a justifiable reason.

[Cakes]

Lessee - you are in STV. Bad choice, I know, but bear with me.
You start there at level 31, killing young tigers and minding your own business.
In that same STV is a bad alliance/horde, level 45 - he's questing there as well (not at all unlikely, given the quests there), spots you and kills you.

You have no chance, despite it being 'fair' world pvp and despite both being at proper place for your level.

What's the difference with the 70 who comes down to help his guildy's alt (you, at level 31) and all of a sudden can't retaliate because there's some arbitrary rule in effect stating he can't kill someone that's is lower level to him ?

Would the level 45 be restricted as well ? Despite the 31 being gray to him, both are in an appropriate zone for their level.

Should we make everything below level 50 a safe haven, not unlike Shattrath ? Why stop there ? Why not make it 60 ? Heck, why not decide to make a full server where you can avoid being attacked at all costs ?

Oh wait... :ponder:

The mechanic would not be ZONE specific, but level specific, just like with mobs that are higher/lower levels only in reverse.

It's pretty simple if you think about it. The 70 would not be "defenseless" in the scenario you described. The mechanic is simple, when world pvp combat damage is dealt to a player, it is appropriate to that players level.

How this is accomplished would require some pretty heavy use case scenario work by the propellerheads at Blizzard, because it would require a stat/armor debuff that is temporary and dependent upon opponent variables (which gets even more sticky if you start to look at scenarios beyond the 1v1 scenario we are describing). But that's what this thread is asking for: Blizzard to look at it and develop a mechanic to mitigate the effects of ganking.

[caldepen]

But, what if, I am looking for the excitement that PvP'ers rave about, but without the irritation of being ganked needlessly?
Something about having your cake and eating it too! If the PvP'ing is curtailed then it ruins the excitement. "Well I just want to be a little excited... but not too much that would be scary!".

The other point is people are blowing it way out of proportion its not like we are in a sea of gankers on PvP realms! Occasionally while questing I get drilled. OMG now I have to run back to my corpse, which takes less time than it does for me to take a leak.

[elsegundo]

i honestly would rather see new content, more variety in gear, crafts, and other things to make this game more in-depth and added quests and mobs to desolate areas of azeroth, than to have to wait while they change the whole PvP structure. i think its fine the way it is. there's nothing broken about it.

[Aerath]

Blizzard [should] look at it and develop a mechanic to mitigate the effects of ganking.

They have. It's called leveling to 70 and gearing up.

Xlorep - what you are suggesting reminds me of watching a Horror movie... with your eyes closed because you can't take that much excitement. And someone else to tell you when it's fine to look again.
Fairly pointless in my opinion, apparently not in yours.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Something about having your cake and eating it too! If the PvP'ing is curtailed then it ruins the excitement. "Well I just want to be a little excited... but not too much that would be scary!".

No, I want the excitement, not the annoyance. As I said, there is no excitement in being killed by someone which you never had a chance against at all, at least in my experience. Equally, there is no excitement in killing someone who never had a chance against me either. There is no thrill, there is no pleasure. It just is a waste of time, to me, period. It is nothing like what you are claiming here, it is not the condescending "Well I just want to be a little excited... but not too much that would be scary!" statement. I fail to see how it even remotely is exciting to spend my time doing a corpse run because I got one-shotted by someone from the other faction for apparently no reason other than that individual was bored.

The other point is people are blowing it way out of proportion its not like we are in a sea of gankers on PvP realms!

Once is more than enough for me. Just has to happen once, and I switch off the PvP servers, because they basically let other people waste my time just because they are bored.

Occasionally while questing I get drilled. OMG now I have to run back to my corpse, which takes less time than it does for me to take a leak.

If you have but 1, maybe 2 hours to play WoW at most, every second becomes precious. Getting ganked (and then frequently in my experience camped) wastes my time. It is a nuisance that I much rather do not want to deal with at all. I like the ability to go in the game, and get certain things done with my time. When that is taken from me, and I am unable to accomplish the goals I set out for myself, it gets annoying. Doubly so when it is caused because of some other player being disruptive.

I play WoW to enjoy myself, to unwind after a rather full work and school schedule. It is how I relax. Being constantly frustrated because someone decides to make it his or her mission to harass me because that person is bored and seems to derive some kind of perverse pleasure in making it difficult for me (griefing in my book) doesn't exactly lend itself to being a time for me to unwind.

Now, once again, I personally wouldn't want to change the existing PvP servers. I'd rather see a new kind of server be implemented. But, I don't honestly think that is likely to happen, so I am relegated to playing on a Normal server, which at least is a voluntary PvP system, unlike the obligatory PvP system found on the PvP and RP/PvP servers, it affords me the opportunity to be able to PvP on my terms, rather than dealing with the annoyance. It isn't an optimal position for me, I'd rather have more of the excitement, it is just the annoyance exceeds the excitement for me on the PvP servers. I don't like playing the game just to get someone else's rocks off.

Xlorep - what you are suggesting reminds me of watching a Horror movie... with your eyes closed because you can't take that much excitement. And someone else to tell you when it's fine to look again.
Fairly pointless in my opinion, apparently not in yours.

Which is completely and utterly missing the entire point of what I am saying. Explain to me how getting one-shotted by a bored level 70 when you are questing in Stonetalon is even *remotely* exciting or fun? Explain how it isn't a complete and utter waste of time? I just don't see how it could be exciting. Now, I can understand the PvPers who like that sort of thing, would disagree, but once again, what I am suggesting does nothing to affect how they are playing the game. It just provides another option for people. How is providing another option even remotely bad? Esp given WoW's population?

i honestly would rather see new content, more variety in gear, crafts, and other things to make this game more in-depth and added quests and mobs to desolate areas of azeroth, than to have to wait while they change the whole PvP structure. i think its fine the way it is. there's nothing broken about it.

I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment that it is fine the way it is or that there is nothing broke with it. There are enough people who complain about it which would, to me, seem to imply there is something wrong. But, at the same time, I know that realistically, it is probably not practical to work on fixing the problem, and it would probably take considerable manhours to do such a thing. So, like you, I'd rather see new content and development on the game, rather than sit around and wait for a change that *might* fix the parts of PvP I don't care for. But, despite that, I do like intellectual exercises and sort of dreaming up an ideal situation/solution based on my personal opinion on what I like or dislike about PvP. Which is all I've posted here ;) And it isn't like someone can realistically sway me from what really is my opinion on the subject.

[odinsnephew]

I'm a world PvP player all the way with players of a similar level :)

Scoreboard tonight:

4-3........but the damn horde elf loladin who /waves then waits until im almost dead? Nasty but effective and to be expected..........afterwards I tracked another 3 down and showed no mercy but fought *ahem* as fairly as I could ofc. I love it!!

Killing lower levels? Bizarre springs to mind. I struggle to really understand the point apart from the basic primeval instinct of defending your territory/resources/cash etc from the "enemy" who in this case are the Alliance/Horde. I normally gladly give them a helping hand if they ain't rude :wink: and help the little mites on their way ;)


Corpse camping? Again bizarre and possibly even more so? Strange way to spend an evening in my opinion "lol".

There's enough resources for everyone and loads of similar level zones so if you get ganked and dont like it.....try another. There are a multitude of options available to numerous too mention and already discussed.

PvP = obviousness mentioned a thousand times already.

To the world PvP'ers, I salute and respect you :)

Edit: And apologies if I put this in the wrong one of the current threads regarding this ;)

[Twoflower]

Edit: And apologies if I put this in the wrong one of the current threads regarding this ;)

we need more threads about this. there are so many people out there who have not yet shared their view, which surely is completely unique. After all we are all like snowflakes.

write novels as long as you want, blizzard will do what they want to do.

[clevins]

oh nvm...............

[caldepen]

I fail to see how it even remotely is exciting to spend my time doing a corpse run because I got one-shotted by someone from the other faction for apparently no reason other than that individual was bored.
You are right, thats not exciting. Trying to complete a quest while avoiding that is whats exciting. Keeping an eye out while running through Feralas is whats exciting. Seeing a red over the horizon and going to over to check them out without getting too close is exciting. Trying to run to a guard in Moonglade and draw the ganker into them is exciting.

[det]

I don't think anyone wants to tell you it is exciting to get ganked.

I suppose after 3 years on a pvp server, all you folks who stay there have weighted the reasons pro and con...and the pro won over the "It is soooo annoying to get ganked"

Again ( I know I repeat myself) DHKs (as countermeasure against killing NPCs and low levels) have been introduced AND removed.

Hell..Introduce that "you can't touch anyone 6 levels below and above you" mechanics and see people come here in 2 months and whine about that being "the worst idea ever because it opened up the exploit xxxxx "

Of course NPCs 6 levels above and below you are untouchable as well...and hey..why not make mobs 6 levels above and below you untouchable while we are at it. It's a fantasy game..let's live in the way of cautious pvp. Caring PvP. PvP where we all respect each other as human beings and only kill each other on equal grounds for a better world.

/sarcasm off

[caldepen]

And one thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned in their crusade to stop ganking is that killing low level toons is not the only way to gank. 15 minutes ago I had one mob sleeping, one mob frozen and beating on a third, when out of the blue I get sapped and zapped. Even though he was of the same level as me the fact that I was half health, juggling three mobs and my pet was otherwise occupied, I would consider this a form of ganking as well. Do you want Blizzard to address this as well? I know I don't even though it happened to me.

[sparklebunny]

Obviously Blizzard is not going to fix it anytime soon. Xlorep I think entails the sentiment - it would be nice to not be ganked by higher level toons but there is no truly effective way to do and thus neither he nor I are on PVP servers. We're not denigrating the PVP server player responses but this hardline "don't like it get out" is also reinforcing the stereotype that PVEers have about PVPers.

Again...I would be more interested in trying a PVP server if I didn't get ganked by people 40 levels above me where I have no shot at all to defend myself. If it was by someone near my level and I died well then shame on me. That's all that Xlorep is saying and I agree with him. But as the PVPers have said if you don't like the PVP server gameplay as it stands currently don't roll on it - and I have not.

There are 10 million people playing this game and 10 million different versions of what is fun and not fun and what is fair and not fair....all this forum is for is discussing ideas not denigrating someone who disagrees with you.

[zane411]

could be possible to make it so they can only engage you in combat when your not already in combat with an NPC. At least then your not getting gang raped by npcs and some numbnuts.

[cigawoot]

If you hate ganking, reroll or transfer. PvP servers are called that for a reason.

[Torik]

could be possible to make it so they can only engage you in combat when your not already in combat with an NPC. At least then your not getting gang raped by npcs and some numbnuts.

That has it's own problem of someone just engaging mobs as they run through a an area and thus avoid the PvP.

I really cannot see a way to code rules into place that would eliminate ganking without:

1. creating new exploits that can get around these rules
2. severly curtailing legit PvP

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

And one thing that I don't think anybody has mentioned in their crusade to stop ganking is that killing low level toons is not the only way to gank. 15 minutes ago I had one mob sleeping, one mob frozen and beating on a third, when out of the blue I get sapped and zapped. Even though he was of the same level as me the fact that I was half health, juggling three mobs and my pet was otherwise occupied, I would consider this a form of ganking as well. Do you want Blizzard to address this as well? I know I don't even though it happened to me.

Yet again, I fail to see how that is ganking. That is part of being on a PvP server. That, to me, would be 100% completely acceptable, because it is a PvP server. The level 70 running around and killing level 20's to get his or her rocks off, that isn't, in my book. In a lot of cases, escape really isn't an option, half or more of the classes have some kind of speed advantage at higher levels, not mentioning mounts that can easily be used to run people down. Would you really be all that thrilled at the notion of going to watch a boxing match between a professional boxer and a toddler? The low level character has as much chance against a level 70, as a toddler does fighting a professional boxer.

Obviously Blizzard is not going to fix it anytime soon. Xlorep I think entails the sentiment - it would be nice to not be ganked by higher level toons but there is no truly effective way to do and thus neither he nor I are on PVP servers. We're not denigrating the PVP server player responses but this hardline "don't like it get out" is also reinforcing the stereotype that PVEers have about PVPers.

Again...I would be more interested in trying a PVP server if I didn't get ganked by people 40 levels above me where I have no shot at all to defend myself. If it was by someone near my level and I died well then shame on me. That's all that Xlorep is saying and I agree with him. But as the PVPers have said if you don't like the PVP server gameplay as it stands currently don't roll on it - and I have not.

There are 10 million people playing this game and 10 million different versions of what is fun and not fun and what is fair and not fair....all this forum is for is discussing ideas not denigrating someone who disagrees with you.

Agreed. it would be nice if people didn't have to result to insulting forms of speech and attacking the opponent, rather than addressing the issue.

[caldepen]

be all that thrilled at the notion of going to watch a boxing match between a professional boxer and a toddler?

That sounds awesome! But seriously, the fact that you define ganking differently than others shows that it is too grey a subject to tackle. A solution that appeases you may not satisfy others. There are plenty of people who do count being attacked when you are at low health as ganking.

[det]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ganking

Funnily pretty much all entries are related more or less to WoW ;) ...and it does include "hurt one's feeling" according to dictionary.com

Which makes it a broooooaaaaaaad term.

[odinsnephew]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ganking

Funnily pretty much all entries are related more or less to WoW ;) ...and it does include "hurt one's feeling" according to dictionary.com

Which makes it a broooooaaaaaaad term.

That link kinda hurts my eyes Det :)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

That sounds awesome! But seriously, the fact that you define ganking differently than others shows that it is too grey a subject to tackle. A solution that appeases you may not satisfy others. There are plenty of people who do count being attacked when you are at low health as ganking.

Which has been exactly what I have been saying this whole time. I believe there is no practical solution to the problem. I don't think Blizzard should devote the manhours to make something workable. I do think there is a problem, to be sure, which is why I don't play on a PvP server, period. I believe that if people find it a problem, they can show their dislike by not playing on the PvP servers. I definitely don't think that if a solution was found/figured out, that it should in any way be applied to the existing servers, but rather be something used for a new kind of server, that way those who like the situation on the PvP servers, can remain on them easily enough.

That said, I did offer my own opinion on what I personally would find possibly acceptable to fix the problem. I did not offer it as something I expect Blizzard would do, I just more or less was running through an intellectual exercise... by thinking of what it is I particularly dislike about the PvP servers, and how I'd like the idea changed. As such, it is my opinion, neither fact, nor what I'd expect anyone else agreed with. However, disagreeing with it, and being condescending & attacking me for what my opinion is does not promote debate, it just helps drag something into a flamewar.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ganking

Funnily pretty much all entries are related more or less to WoW ;) ...and it does include "hurt one's feeling" according to dictionary.com

Which makes it a broooooaaaaaaad term.

Exactly. As I said, I think for the most part, people are arguing apples and oranges here. They aren't arguing or getting all up in arms over the same thing, on either side of this discussion. I can't even guarantee that people who are on the same side of the issue/debate, are necessarily thinking of the same thing.

[Janfader]

I think what needs to happen is another a thread posted by a Blue God stating what the "ganking" term is in clear WoW terms that we can all revote on. Lock this up and ty again, because travelling around in a circle is not fun - like being ganked.

[Icefrost]

One of the most fun things that ever happened to me on the PvP server I play on, was back when I was some 40ish leveling up like anyone else and get jumped by a level ?? horde. I hit travel form and make a run for it.
30 seconds later I'm stealthed a nice but visible distance away from him, laughin my rear off as the poor guy runs in circles, spamming his AoE all over the place hoping to catch me with it.

15 minutes later the same happens again, except this time there are two of them. Regardless, same result. :cool:

I vote "no".

[bpmtrain]

It's part of the game. I'm sure people will enjoy ganking at level 70 when they get there. Nothin like a little tough love to a noob to get em to hate the opposite faction :]

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

It's part of the game. I'm sure people will enjoy ganking at level 70 when they get there. Nothin like a little tough love to a noob to get em to hate the opposite faction :]

lemme guess, didn't bother to read the thread? lol

[clevins]

We really need to remember to lock the door leading from the official forums to here. They keep getting in....

[Leviathonlx]

I don't even want to attempt to get into the argument of whether it should be punished or not as quite frankly neither side of the arguent would ever give in.

Personally I rolled on a PvP server 3 years ago fully knowing what I was coming into. It does get annoying when I get ganked on one of my alts but I know that if the person bothers me enough I can log onto one of my 70's who I have parked nearby for payback.

The forums lately though do seem to be turning into a extension of the official forums :P

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Careful, people here lately seem to take offense to the notion that the official forums are bad. I got a tongue lashing for daring to suggest it.

[sparklebunny]

Just want to clarify for those who are following this thread:

the anti-gankers - notably Xlorep - have an issue with one part of ganking - the ganking of low levels by level 70s with absolutely no reasonable chance of fighting back or surviving. We also a) understand this is a part of a PVP server and thus are on PVE servers and b) there really is no way to fix the issue. If you are at half health engaged with three mobs and an opposing faction comes along and one shots you then I at least have no issue with it. That's part of a PVP server. I'd probably try a PVP server if there was a way to avoid the level 70 running around STV one-shotting lowbies "because he was bored" or with the "they did it to me when I was that level" mentality....that's just bullying. It is interesting on a couple of the Warhammer forums I have read a lot of people....in a pvp-centric game!....are happy that there is a chicken mechanic if you attack a lowbie toon.

Again we are not on PVP servers. Honestly there is not a good solution nor should Blizzard really look into it at the expense of other aspects of the game. it is just a point we have noted as to what our biggest annoyance is with PVP....and yes because of that annoyance we rolled on PVE servers :).

If I ever try a PVP server I know full well what I am getting myself into and because of that I doubt I ever will. If they introduced a fair mechanic to the game to prevent lowbie ganking by high levels I'd consider it but I doubt it would happen.

[dgrampa]

... We're not denigrating the PVP server player responses but this hardline "don't like it get out" is also reinforcing the stereotype that PVEers have about PVPers...

Trust me when I tell you that PvPers do not care what you think about them or what stereotypes you or anyone else label them with.

And hardcore gankers? The ones that you all hate so much? You know the ones that camp lowbies until they log out? They are only fueled by your tears. Every complaint they generate on the forums is like a badge of honor they wear with pride. This whole thread is filled with their trophies.

...
Agreed. it would be nice if people didn't have to result to insulting forms of speech and attacking the opponent, rather than addressing the issue.

There is no issue.

Which has been exactly what I have been saying this whole time. I believe there is no practical solution to the problem. I don't think Blizzard should devote the manhours to make something workable. I do think there is a problem, to be sure, which is why I don't play on a PvP server, period....

There is no problem.

Just because some people, or even a lot of people, don't like the way something is, does not mean there is a problem. From the first moment these types of concerns popped up, Blizzard has stated that it is part of the game and they have no intention of even trying to change it. It is Blizzard's game and they don't think it is a problem.

It is only an issue or problem to people who don't realize that their opinion, in this case, does not mean anything. At this point you might as well say 'I think gravity is unfair because it hurts when I fall down. We should discuss ways to change the way gravity works."

You have your options to avoid ganking.

[det]

Trust me when I tell you that PvPers do not care what you think about them or what stereotypes you or anyone else label them with.

And hardcore gankers? The ones that you all hate so much? You know the ones that camp lowbies until they log out? They are only fueled by your tears. Every complaint they generate on the forums is like a badge of honor they wear with pride. This whole thread is filled with their trophies.


Just talked to a RL friend of mine. We both play on a PvE server. He came back from a BG game and flew over Terrokar He is a lv 70 Paladin in full epicced S1 gear and whatever else BGs give you. He saw a flagged lv 63 hunter below him. Pondered for a moment. Thought "What the hell", landed and killed him.

Now while this sounds like a typical ganking situation (higher level, better gear), it also was free honor and before you jump to stereotypes like in the quote above, I know my friend to be a caring family father in reality and not some psycho in the way that some of you like to paint gankers.

I am sure the ?? Alliance attacking Kargath who killed me when I tried to sap him wouldn't be considered a "ganker" by you? I attacked him first (ok, he attacked the guards first), still he had no honor in killing me, no trouble and continued to one-shot the entire town....

[Ardani]

Just want to clarify for those who are following this thread:

the anti-gankers - notably Xlorep - have an issue with one part of ganking - the ganking of low levels by level 70s with absolutely no reasonable chance of fighting back or surviving. We also a) understand this is a part of a PVP server and thus are on PVE servers and b) there really is no way to fix the issue.

Can't speak for others, but myself, I've no issue with those on PvE servers explaining why they are on PvE servers and what it'd take to get them onto a PvP server. You made the right choice, and moved to the server type that suited (or at least best suited) your desires.

The thing I dislike, and the thing that I believe is drawing most of the fire here, are the people who are on PvP servers, have made an informed choice to be on PvP servers, and continue to make that choice every day by remaining on PvP servers instead of taking one of the avenues available to them (rerolling or PCT) to change their situation, and yet cry about how said servers work.

If you stick your hand in a fire and then complain about how it burns, don't be surprised if the most sympathetic response you get is "Stop sticking your hand in it, then."

[sparklebunny]

Again not looking for a reason to go to the PVP servers guys....just stating my reason why I am not on there...

Det, see the thing is the 63 is a "green level" mob and he would still get XP and honor - that's not the ganking we're talking about. It's when it would be a level 23 mob with no hope that is what we were discussing.

Lastly I know Blizzard won't change it, and I honestly don't think there is a reason to. Because if you do that it becomes a very slippery slope. PVP server attendance is just fine and to change that kind of mechanice 3 1/2 years later would be counterproductive.

Dgrampa - I must have missed the PVE "carebear" stereotype PVPers use to describe anyone who doesn't PVP or says anything negative about PVP....it's a two way street there :).

[det]

Though honestly that 63 never would have stood a chance. Attacked from the sky by an epicced 70 while he is questing in what most likely is greens? He was as dead as any 23 would have been ;)

And an attacker could have ganked, ganked, ganked and corpsecamped him like a lv 23. He would have ruined his game and all, hindered his questing.

I think I was just trying to show how fuzzy that line is that some ppl want to draw.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Though honestly that 63 never would have stood a chance. Attacked from the sky by an epicced 70 while he is questing in what most likely is greens? He was as dead as any 23 would have been ;)

And an attacker could have ganked, ganked, ganked and corpsecamped him like a lv 23. He would have ruined his game and all, hindered his questing.

I think I was just trying to show how fuzzy that line is that some ppl want to draw.

But it *was* an honorable kill. It yielded honor, and therefore the notion of ganking simply does not apply. Once again, there was a point, a reason for it (getting honor). If the same level 70 went and killed a level 40, I'd see it differently, because there would have been no point, no purpose to it. However, in this situation, you are talking about something that is fundamentally part of being on a PvP server.

The thing I dislike, and the thing that I believe is drawing most of the fire here, are the people who are on PvP servers, have made an informed choice to be on PvP servers, and continue to make that choice every day by remaining on PvP servers instead of taking one of the avenues available to them (rerolling or PCT) to change their situation, and yet cry about how said servers work.

While a condescending attitude, I do have to agree with the sentiment. There is a choice. These people could easily have *not* picked to play on PvP servers.

[piscene]

While a condescending attitude, I do have to agree with the sentiment. There is a choice. These people could easily have *not* picked to play on PvP servers.

And this is, in a nutshell, why Blizz does not need to do anything about ganking. I stopped playing on my PvP server because the ganking was too much for me. I am much happier on my normal server.

If you choose to play on a PvP server, you have to accept that these things will happen. It is part of the game. If you don't like it, switch servers or reroll.

[det]

Okay..I am splitting hairs here and just keep returning to this thread...because it is like a train wreck. You HAVE to watch. Or a sore tooth. You HAVE to touch it ^^

"GANKING: An imaginary means of killing someone 'unfairly' in WoW.

Ganking, by definition of the game is quite impossible, because killing people of the enemy faction in any way, even if looked down upon is the object of the game.

If ganking wasn't the intention of the developers, it would be taken out. Plain and simple."

It is one of the definitions. It is a definition that suits me. But since (as said before) there is no universally acclaimed definition of this term, we will be going in circles.

[clevins]

Well, Det, your definition isn't even a definition. It's couched as such, but it's mere;y someone saying that you can't gank. And, of course, you can. After all, a 70 vs 70 fight isn't ganking, a 70 vs 32 fight is. The grey areas are the issue and all you need to do is draw a line somewhere and say "this is ganking, the other side of the line isn't."

We could construct a definition that would allow the construction of a bunch of rules to prevent it. That's not the hard part actually. The hard part would be all the whining about that definition, the whining that there are new restrictions in place at all and the subsequent exploiting. It's one of the issues with retrofitting new restrictions onto an existing scheme - there's a whole set of expectations that have been built up, people have dealt with the situation and, after awhile, it's very hard to change. Changing this 3 months in would have been easy. 3 years in and it's almost impossible not for technical reasons, but for cultural ones.

[det]

My definition is possibly not a definition because I can't even find the word in a german-english dictionary. So different people try to make explanations as what to "ganking" is.

[dgrampa]

... After all, a 70 vs 70 fight isn't ganking, a 70 vs 32 fight is...

A 70 can gank another 70. Some 70 is out farming and after a tough pull is down to <10% health. A rogue ambush crits the farmer. This is 100% defined as a gank. On the flip side, a full party of level 32s can also theoretically gank a level 70 out farming. So you cannot propose a solution that is level-based. It would not work.

All that is required to define a 'gank' is that someone took advantage of someone else's vulnerable state, where the vulnerable one had a very low (or non-existant) chance of fighting back. It is part of human nature for some people to take advantage of vulnerable targets. Therefore, the only way to remove 'ganking' would be to remove all situations in which someone would be vulnerable. This is the solution the anti-gankers are looking for and it is already implemented with PvE servers.

I am baffled as to why this thread even exists. Might as well have been another twink thread. Or gold-selling. Maybe we can just start one catch-all poll thread asking if people should be allowed freedom of choice to do anything in-game that takes away from someone else's gaming enjoyment. That way we can direct anyone debating ganking, twinking, farming, etc. to said thread and those of us sick of seeing the same tired old arguments can avoid it like the plague.

[det]

On the other hand it is 14 pages long within a couple of days. So this topic does burn on some people's mind.

Nothing like some good arguments (and a few bad ones) flying back and forth. ("Oi gawts eleven kay posts to reach" )

.....other than that I agree (and have tried to elaborate on it) a "gank" can happen in many ways. Yes you can theorize that a lv 70 in greens at least has a fighting chance against 1 or 2 epicced attackers...to which I theorize that a lv 23 could get support by his lv 70 guild mates and retaliate. As we have heard here, people actually do that...some even gank lowbies in the hope that some high levels show up.

[TPMdm]

Changing the world pvp mechanics on PvP servers at this point in time would be like getting off the zeppelin to Undercity and seeing it attacked by an AT-AT

[clevins]

I am baffled as to why this thread even exists.

Because people wanted to talk about the subject.

That way we can direct anyone debating ganking, twinking, farming, etc. to said thread and those of us sick of seeing the same tired old arguments can avoid it like the plague.

And yet you posted here.... hypocrisy ftl... don't want to read about the topic? Then... don't. :rolleyes:

[solance]

i rolled pvp because i liked the idea of fighting others. keyword = fighting

no fighting in lvl 70 vs 30

the facts...

fact 1:
a lot of people who post on this forum gray-corpse camp, so we get a lot more people defending that with the brilliant "you rolled pvp n00b" I play on a pvp server and you dont get too many defending that stuff in general chat in stranglethorn. The very notion that you could take away their 4 hours a night killing people 30-40 lvls below them is offensive.

fact 2: Most of those who CAMP lowbies (not just kill and move on) are not good against others their lvl so they do what they do and they will get very upset (see posts) when you suggest that maybe they should not kill the SAME lvl 30-40's over and over.

fact 3: the system will not change so we have to just deal with it. most of those who do the 4 hour gray corpse camp fests are the most vocal and most paying members of the wow community and their rights will be preserved.

[HandofDread]

In the immortal words of Aerath: "PvP on a PvP server? No waaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!"

Listen if your going to join a PVP server you have to know what your getting into.

At the same time how are you going to implement an anti-ganking measure???

So if your a level 70 and engage in pvp on a PVP server YOU are supposed to be penalized?

And if you play on a PVE server and are a lowbie and attempt FLAG for PVP against a lvl 70 what does that say about you?

[Ardani]

While a condescending attitude, I do have to agree with the sentiment. There is a choice. These people could easily have *not* picked to play on PvP servers.

True, that probably was a little condescending, but nothing pushes my *****y button like people who won't take responsibility for their decisions. :wink: Let me rephrase that to "refuse to accept the results of their choice".

[dgrampa]

On the other hand it is 14 pages long within a couple of days. So this topic does burn on some people's mind...

Which is exactly why I wrote that even though many people don't like the way things work, that does not mean there is a problem that needs fixing.

Because people wanted to talk about the subject.

Which is why I suggested the catch-all thread.

And yet you posted here.... hypocrisy ftl... don't want to read about the topic? Then... don't. :rolleyes:

Do you know the definition of hypocrisy? I didn't pretend to be something I'm not. I posted here because, as Det pointed out, this thread is like a train wreck.

i rolled pvp because i liked the idea of fighting others. keyword = fighting

no fighting in lvl 70 vs 30

the facts...

fact 1:
a lot of people who post on this forum gray-corpse camp, so we get a lot more people defending that with the brilliant "you rolled pvp n00b" I play on a pvp server and you dont get too many defending that stuff in general chat in stranglethorn. The very notion that you could take away their 4 hours a night killing people 30-40 lvls below them is offensive.

fact 2: Most of those who CAMP lowbies (not just kill and move on) are not good against others their lvl so they do what they do and they will get very upset (see posts) when you suggest that maybe they should not kill the SAME lvl 30-40's over and over.

fact 3: the system will not change so we have to just deal with it. most of those who do the 4 hour gray corpse camp fests are the most vocal and most paying members of the wow community and their rights will be preserved.

Those are some great facts you have there. They fit perfectly in this thread.

[Dhoum]

Maybe we can just start one catch-all poll thread asking if people should be allowed freedom of choice to do anything in-game that takes away from someone else's gaming enjoyment. That way we can direct anyone debating ganking, twinking, farming, etc. to said thread and those of us sick of seeing the same tired old arguments can avoid it like the plague.

Do you know the definition of hypocrisy? I didn't pretend to be something I'm not. I posted here because, as Det pointed out, this thread is like a train wreck.

So either this thread isn't going over the "same tired old arguments" or you're not sick of them or you were ... well ... not being entirely truthful.

It's a bit like a PvP server, you don't want to look at the discussion? Don't read the thread. Please stop whining about how it's a rubbish thread whilst continuing to read and add to it. If it is as pointless and rubbish as you say then it will die its own, natural death. It will die a damn sight quicker if you stop fanning the flames.

For those who say "roll PvE n00b" well, I did. I really enjoyed being on a PvP server when fighting (or sometimes not) people of a similar level. If I was beaten then I got to think about what I did wrong, if I won then I got to feel good about myself, far more than if I'd beaten a same or higher level PvE mob.

Being ganked, however, gave me no enjoyment at all. My definition of ganking is pretty straightforward, if your opponent is a grey con then it's a gank. Nothing more, nothing less. So I got sick of Boss-cons jumping me and killing me while I was trying to quest and/or fight a level-appropriate player. Having got royally tired of this behaviour I did, indeed, re-roll on a Normal RP server and am enjoying it very much. I do miss world PvP though, BGs just don't come close. Flagging as PvP, incidentally, just opens you up to the same problems as exist on a PvP server with none of the benefits ... so I don't bother.

In conclusion, a gank-free server (by my definition) would be an absolute blessing and I'd roll on there in a heartbeat. Until then I'll just stay on normal servers and visit here to read about sado-masochists saying how cool it is to gank and be ganked.

[Ardani]

Until then I'll just stay on normal servers and visit here to read about sado-masochists saying how cool it is to gank and be ganked.

Yeah, anyone who doesn't share the same interests as you is a "sado-masochist".

:rolleyes:

It was nice to see so many reasoned responses from people on PvE servers about this issue, but there's always gotta be one, hasn't there?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Gankers are like the kids who get a giggle out of frying ants with a magnifying class.

[Dhoum]

Yeah, anyone who doesn't share the same interests as you is a "sado-masochist".

:rolleyes:

It was nice to see so many reasoned responses from people on PvE servers about this issue, but there's always gotta be one, hasn't there?

How would you describe such behaviour then? There is no gain to ganking, no honour, no exp, no loot, nothing. Very occasionally there may be a contested ore node or something but that, I would suggest, is far less common than "motiveless" ganking. Furthermore for the ganked player, there is a corpse-run with nothing to show for it, no lessons that can be taken away, an effective reduction in exp and loot (since you are missing out on time that you could be collecting these things).

To say that you enjoy ganking can surely only be because you either enjoy causing discomfort or inconvenience to others, or you enjoy receiving such treatment. No other description seems quite so apt.

But if you object to such labels (gosh, it's nothing like calling people "carebears" ... what was I thinking?) then point out to me how my logic is flawed and I'll stop using it.

[Ardani]

There is no gain to ganking, no honour, no exp, no loot, nothing.

The gain lies in this elusive quality called "fun". Ganking's not my thing, in general, but I am capable of recognising that it's okay for people to have different interests from me without getting bitter about it.

As for the gankee, you know, nearly every time I've been ganked it's been in such a tense or amusing way that it was well worth the 30 second corpse-run (a real imposition on my day, that) for the laughs. To be a masochist is to take pleasure in one's own pain. My computer game character "dying" is hardly what I'd call a painful experience.

But you know, I'm not trying to convince you to like ganking. It's fine for people to have different interests. What I take issue with is your apparent inability to apply that principle yourself, and refrain from slapping immature labels on people just because they find enjoyment in something that you don't.

[Dhoum]

The gain lies in this elusive quality called "fun". Ganking's not my thing, in general, but I am capable of recognising that it's okay for people to have different interests from me without getting bitter about it.

Bitter? The only thing I'm bitter about is being consistently labelled (by association if not directly) a "carebear" when I enjoy a good fight as much as anyone ... against opponents of similar level.

As for the gankee, you know, nearly every time I've been ganked it's been in such a tense or amusing way that it was well worth the 30 second corpse-run (a real imposition on my day, that) for the laughs. To be a masochist is to take pleasure in one's own pain. My computer game character "dying" is hardly what I'd call a painful experience.

Your experience is different to mine then, you are most fortunate. The number of times that I was ganked in an entertaining manner for me was, definitely, in the minority ... in fact of the countless times I took a dirt-nap at the hands of a ?? character I can recall only one instance when it was in any way amusing. Also your definition of "masochism" is, I'm afraid, rather narrow ... masochism can stretch anywhere from enjoying pain to enjoying humiliation, with an awful lot of stops in-between. My personal enjoyment of the game is not derived from fighting things I have no hope of defeating (I don't voluntarily attack boss-con mobs in PvE) and I find corpse-runs or the wait for rez-sickness to clear tiresome and, well, not exactly pleasant. To gain pleasure from that which is generally considered unpleasant is, surely, a form of masochism.

But you know, I'm not trying to convince you to like ganking. It's fine for people to have different interests. What I take issue with is your apparent inability to apply that principle yourself, and refrain from slapping immature labels on people just because they find enjoyment in something that you don't.

What? I have, I think, given reasonable arguments why I think that the enjoyment of ganking can be seen as sado-masochistic. Your assumption that I find that description in some way repugnant, unacceptable or "dirty" reveals rather more about your own intolerances than they do mine.

[Gravnar]

Well ganking is unfair. It completly ruins the fun of the game when a level 70 comes into a low level zone and kills everyone and the guards can not even stop them. You just have to wait until a level 70 comes to help you. It ruins the fun of the game. I could understand all of your arguments of "It is a pvp server." Yes it is a pvp server but it is one sided when a level 70 goes to ashenvale and kills all the level 20 people. I was stuck there for about an hour before i decided to log off once. There was a person camping where the spirit healer is and other camping the dead bodies. Nothing we could have done. It completly ruined the fun of playing.

[NOYB]

Yes it is a pvp server but it is one sided when a level 70 goes to ashenvale and kills all the level 20 people. I was stuck there for about an hour before i decided to log off once. There was a person camping where the spirit healer is and other camping the dead bodies. Nothing we could have done. It completly ruined the fun of playing.

You have a terrible faction if one person is able to hold a whole zone hostage for more than an hour.

Roll horde. We don't take that kind of nonsense. ;)

[Icefrost]

You have a terrible faction if one person is able to hold a whole zone hostage for more than an hour.

Roll horde. We don't take that kind of nonsense. ;)

And if he is horde? It's not like Ashenvale wouldn't be a 20+ zone for them too.

[NOYB]

And if he is horde? It's not like Ashenvale wouldn't be a 20+ zone for them too.

I doubt the story is even true to begin with. There may be "some" credibility to it, but people tend to exaggerate when it comes to ganking stories.

It's just typical of fresh 20 in Astranaar experiencing world PvP for the first time.

Besides. Splintertree doesn't get camped. It does get attacked, but retaliation is usually swift and furious. Orgrimmar is a short flight. Darnassus on the other hand... Does anyone even go there?

[elsegundo]

a lot of people do not understand the concept of "fair".

[Tollin]

We have a saying in the Navy; "Choose your rate, choose your fate!"

IF in the Navy you dont like your job you first signed up for, well don't re-enlist at that same job, change it. THere are numerous ways to do that.

I started off on a pve server, after hitting level cap of 60, i wanted to try my hand at PvP server. First time I was ganked I logged off and never returned to that toon. I tried it out, didnt care for it and that was that.

You will know by level 20-30 if you like getting ganked or not. IF not, dont keep playing on that server, roll on a PvE server and be happy.

[dgrampa]

So either this thread isn't going over the "same tired old arguments" or you're not sick of them or you were ... well ... not being entirely truthful.

It's a bit like a PvP server, you don't want to look at the discussion? Don't read the thread. Please stop whining about how it's a rubbish thread whilst continuing to read and add to it. If it is as pointless and rubbish as you say then it will die its own, natural death. It will die a damn sight quicker if you stop fanning the flames.

For those who say "roll PvE n00b" well, I did. I really enjoyed being on a PvP server when fighting (or sometimes not) people of a similar level. If I was beaten then I got to think about what I did wrong, if I won then I got to feel good about myself, far more than if I'd beaten a same or higher level PvE mob.

Being ganked, however, gave me no enjoyment at all. My definition of ganking is pretty straightforward, if your opponent is a grey con then it's a gank. Nothing more, nothing less. So I got sick of Boss-cons jumping me and killing me while I was trying to quest and/or fight a level-appropriate player. Having got royally tired of this behaviour I did, indeed, re-roll on a Normal RP server and am enjoying it very much. I do miss world PvP though, BGs just don't come close. Flagging as PvP, incidentally, just opens you up to the same problems as exist on a PvP server with none of the benefits ... so I don't bother.

In conclusion, a gank-free server (by my definition) would be an absolute blessing and I'd roll on there in a heartbeat. Until then I'll just stay on normal servers and visit here to read about sado-masochists saying how cool it is to gank and be ganked.

I said I'd avoid the catch all thread, not this one. I'm not whining, I'm thoroughly enjoying some of the rediculous ideas and suggestions being tossed about. :thumbsup:

[Aerath]

a lot of people do not understand the concept of "fair".

And/or refuse to understand that 'fair' is not at all tied to a level difference.
(See: level 19 BG twinks vs normal level 19 toons, or see full vengeful lvl 70 warlock vs green geared lvl 70 druid.)

And I honestly wonder what PvP server people rolled on - all those crying foul make it seem as if you have to wade through the level 70s all queueing up to gank your poor li'l alt.
I honestly can't remember the last time an alt of mine was killed by a level 70 and I've leveled plenty.

It seems to me as though the PvE servers are far more vile in that manner, with people trying to trick others to flag or abusing exploits like the snake trap.

[det]

Actually what Aerath said is the drift that I caught when I went to another forum and asked about PvP and / or ganking experience.

People were pretty cool about it.

I add some quotes here:

"Well when I was on a PvP server a lot of people who ganked lowbies were doing so for 1 of 3 reasons.

1) When they were a lowbie they were ganked, the **** keeps falling down ^^

2) The person being ganked killed the lvl 70's alt or one of their friends, revenge job.

3) They're bored and want to get this lowbies lvl 70 friends to come and play"

And:

"There used to be an Alliance guild who would gank and camp you - but they would also attack you if you were level 50, 60 or even higher level.

That is the way pretty much of that realm - of course you will get ganked a bit, it's part of the playing on a PvP realm http://bnet-gat.com/forum/Smileys/default/grin.gif

It doesn't mean these same people will leave a lvl 70 alone - because if they do they will get attacked themselves!

In most cases it is the person who attacks who wins - so it is in everyones interest to hit that smash opponent player to dust button 1st even if you don't think you can win, otherwise you are more likely not to win http://bnet-gat.com/forum/Smileys/default/wink.gif

Does that make sense?

Also don't forget that many low level players are there to suck higher level players in so the stealthed rogue sitting there can eat you for breakfast"

[odinsnephew]

Posts 159 & 160 QFT.

I cant say it any better myself ;)

[mesonm]

That is the way pretty much of that realm - of course you will get ganked a bit, it's part of the playing on a PvP realm

I contend that there is more ganking on PVE realms....At least, that is my experience, having one high level PVE-server character, and several high level PVP-server toons.

[piscene]

I contend that there is more ganking on PVE realms....At least, that is my experience, having one high level PVE-server character, and several high level PVP-server toons.

Okay, you lost me there. How can you get ganked on a PvE server? And how could it happen more than on a PvP server?

[det]

I must admit that I don't understand the meaning of "content" here :)

I do know what the noun "content" means and what "to be content" is....but do you agree or disagree here?

BTW..what you quoted from my post is actually a quote from a friend who plays on a PvP and a PvP realm. She was talking about her PvP realm :)

[Janfader]

There are some replies that Blizzard will never change the fact of ganking for whatever reasons... This is quite untrue due to recent studies of on-line/internet "bullying" taking place - IMO and is a serious matter. I'm sure Blizzard has been appoarched at seeing a fix for this - hence the topic of thread.

Ganking in my world of defination in WoW is:

a) One who constantly bullies another of the opposite faction by corpse camping - not allowing a fair fight upon resurrection.
b) One who is low leveled who doesn't stand a chance of a fair fight to that of a higher lvl which constantly harrases a low level character - resulting in mutliple kills in a short time frame.
c) Using game mechanics to unflag a PvE status to PvP i.e snake traps.

Solutions:

a) 1 min PvP immunity buff after ressurection to get "self" buffs, HP/Mana back to full - summon pet etc... may not interact with anyone/anything for that duration. Cannot aggro, attack/be attacked, buff any one in that allotted time frame.
b) A buff much like in Warhammer (the chicken buff on the high level)... This of course only applies to the "zone" their in. In this case if a high level'd PvP toon waltzes into a lower level zone will be chicken buffed as per the zone lvl range. If the low level enters a high level area/zone he is game. This also applies if the low lvl toon attacks the pvp'd toon. The chicken buff would also grant immunity to the "ganker" so that the lower levels could not harrass him.
c) Something Blizzard should fix ASAP IMO.

[PlayThemAll]

Ganking
"Ganking" is the term used to describe getting killed by another player without having much of a chance to fight back or escape. This usually occurs in the context of being overpowered by several enemy players, by a player of a significantly higher level, or while in a vulnerable state such as being low on health or while fighting a monster. On your career in a PvP realm, ganking will be a common occurrence, particularly while leveling.

As defined on the Official WoW site.


Game play is what World of Warcraft is all about, and Blizzard strictly enforces the rules that govern game play. Blizzard considers most conduct to be part of the Game, and not harassment, so player-killing the enemies of your race and/or alliance, including gravestone and/or corpse camping, is considered a part of the Game. Because the Program is a "player vs. player" game, you should always remember to protect yourself in areas where the members of hostile races can attack you, rather than contacting Blizzard's in-game customer service representatives for help when you have been killed by an enemy of your race. Nonetheless, certain acts go beyond what is "fair" and are considered serious violations of these Terms of Use. Those acts include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:

1. Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs" to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;
2. Conduct prohibited by the EULA or these Terms of Use, including without limitation that conduct prohibited by Section 2(C); and
3. Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Program.


Part of Blizzards Terms of Use. Something every player in the game agreed to when creating an account.

I'm not sure what else can be said

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Wow, people are still going in circles here.

[PlayThemAll]

Wow, people are still going in circles here.

Yeah, but I'm bored at work. :wave:

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Yeah, but I'm bored at work. :wave:

+1

The wow statement says what is. This thread is about what it could be or should be. Looking at the results, more people want to do something about ganking than leave it be. So will WoW make a game to please the people or will they try to force us to accept it?

[elsegundo]

There are some replies that Blizzard will never change the fact of ganking for whatever reasons... This is quite untrue due to recent studies of on-line/internet "bullying" taking place - IMO and is a serious matter. I'm sure Blizzard has been appoarched at seeing a fix for this - hence the topic of thread.

Ganking in my world of defination in WoW is:

a) One who constantly bullies another of the opposite faction by corpse camping - not allowing a fair fight upon resurrection.
b) One who is low leveled who doesn't stand a chance of a fair fight to that of a higher lvl which constantly harrases a low level character - resulting in mutliple kills in a short time frame.
c) Using game mechanics to unflag a PvE status to PvP i.e snake traps.

Solutions:

a) 1 min PvP immunity buff after ressurection to get "self" buffs, HP/Mana back to full - summon pet etc... may not interact with anyone/anything for that duration. Cannot aggro, attack/be attacked, buff any one in that allotted time frame.
b) A buff much like in Warhammer (the chicken buff on the high level)... This of course only applies to the "zone" their in. In this case if a high level'd PvP toon waltzes into a lower level zone will be chicken buffed as per the zone lvl range. If the low level enters a high level area/zone he is game. This also applies if the low lvl toon attacks the pvp'd toon. The chicken buff would also grant immunity to the "ganker" so that the lower levels could not harrass him.
c) Something Blizzard should fix ASAP IMO.

i disagree. your suggestions essentiall turn every PvP server into a PvE server. best solution: roll pve.

[Torik]

+1

The wow statement says what is. This thread is about what it could be or should be. Looking at the results, more people want to do something about ganking than leave it be. So will WoW make a game to please the people or will they try to force us to accept it?

Thing is people do not really want Blizzard to just 'do' something about ganking, they want them to 'solve' the issue.

Ganking is so ill defined and complex an issue that I really do not see a 'solution' that will not cause its own slew of problems.

[NOYB]

Ganking is fine. The people that don't like it, don't belong on PvP servers. Simple as that.

If you want to run around without the danger of being ganked. Roll PvE.

"I want to fight other faction players." Type /pvp

"I might get ganked"! So just challenge them to a duel.

"LOL. Duels aren't PvP." I agree.

"I want the thrill of being on a PvP server without the risk of ganking." Ever considered that World PvP just isn't for you? There's already battlegrounds and arena. Shouldn't that be enough? Why do carebears want to take away other people's fun to satisfy their own whimsical demands of how things, "should be"?

[rgirty]

Ganking is fine. The people that don't like it, don't belong on PvP servers. Simple as that.

If you want to run around without the danger of being ganked. Roll PvE.

"I want to fight other faction players." Type /pvp

"I might get ganked"! So just challenge them to a duel.

"LOL. Duels aren't PvP." I agree.

"I want the thrill of being on a PvP server without the risk of ganking." Ever considered that World PvP just isn't for you? There's already battlegrounds and arena. Shouldn't that be enough? Why do carebears want to take away other people's fun to satisfy their own whimsical demands of how things, "should be"?

This says it all.

[PlayThemAll]

+1

The wow statement says what is. This thread is about what it could be or should be. Looking at the results, more people want to do something about ganking than leave it be. So will WoW make a game to please the people or will they try to force us to accept it?

Blizzard already made a game; they clearly stated the rules for said game; people accepted the rules for said game and they still whine about it.

I never would have started playing the game had they not had the PvP realms available at the time. So yes, I'm going to be a little defensive when people start crying for nerfs to the aspect of the game that I find the most exciting.

Edit: After 18 pages I think the one thing we can all agree on is that both sides of the issue disagree. :thumbsup: :laugh:

[Xanaver]

LOL Are you actually serious.

To Those of you who are against PVP Combat Roll on a darn PVE Server. For the rest of us actual PVPers we know its part of "Growing up" Grow some or re roll.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

LOL Are you actually serious.

To Those of you who are against PVP Combat Roll on a darn PVE Server. For the rest of us actual PVPers we know its part of "Growing up" Grow some or re roll.

Was that truly necessary? Please, can you try to make a response which is not blatantly offensive and crude?

[det]

Hnarffff..for many it boils down to what he said...and it is actually emphasised every few posts.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

There is such a thing as being civil in the response though. There is the "I don't care that what I say affects anyone else, so I can be as crude as possible" method, or there is tact and politeness, understanding that there are people with an opposing viewpoint to yours, if for nothing else, than to make your point without inciting flames.

[Aerath]

There is such a thing as being civil in the response though. There is the "I don't care that what I say affects anyone else, so I can be as crude as possible" method, or there is tact and politeness, understanding that there are people with an opposing viewpoint to yours, if for nothing else, than to make your point without inciting flames.

To be blunt - does it make a difference ?

PvE carebears ignore the PvP answers anyway whether they're well-mannered or outspoken. They want PvP servers to turn into their own opinion of PvP, which clashes radically with those who actually *did* roll on a PvP server.

[rgirty]

There is such a thing as being civil in the response though. There is the "I don't care that what I say affects anyone else, so I can be as crude as possible" method, or there is tact and politeness, understanding that there are people with an opposing viewpoint to yours, if for nothing else, than to make your point without inciting flames.

Remember when I said this place is becoming more and more like the officials and i was told that was "incorrect" in not such nice wording...

Well, read thread after thread my friend..

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

To be blunt - does it make a difference ?

I think it does. Civility in an open discussion helps move the discussion. Incivility and crudeness results in very rapid progression to inflamed emotions and anger, the discussion rapidly crashing and burning, and the topic ignored.

PvE carebears ignore the PvP answers anyway whether they're well-mannered or outspoken. They want PvP servers to turn into their own opinion of PvP, which clashes radically with those who actually *did* roll on a PvP server.

I'm sorry, but the word I highlighted is just flat out insulting. I've mentioned this before. It is not only incorrect, it is plain rude. It is, more or less, a direct insult to the people who don't play your particular way, which appears to be PvP. It trivializes the position of someone in a position like mine.

The PvP'ers who have shown tact, of which there have been a number here in this thread, have had well-thought out responses. Just because the two sides are well, in disagreement, that doesn't mean that it is open season to throw out insults, lest the discussion is sidetracked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem) and becomes an out right flamewar, the thread locked, and the discussion dismissed.

Honestly, from what I've seen, it has not been people who are on Normal/RP servers that want the PvP servers to change, those posts, like my own, have rather been suggestions to a new kind of server all together, one that may be appealing to us... all speculation, and for the most part nobody has said it has to happen, or even was likely to happen. Just ideas tossed around.

Then there are those, who like the OP seem to be on the PvP servers, and are complaining about the ganking. Those of us on the Normal/RP servers have basically held the position that the PvP'ers in support of ganking have held -- such people should probably transfer their characters to a Normal/RP server, or roll up a new character on one. And, in fact, those particular people with the view of how bad ganking is on the servers and how hard it is for them personally.... have fallen into the minority and mostly left this thread.

The third group are the "pro-ganking PvP'ers" who think there is nothing wrong with it, and in fact, ganking is completely acceptable and part of the PvP experience. Some have had considerate responses. Others just rudely insult people from the other two groups with crude statements. The funny thing is it seems there are people in this group who are confusing the first two groups as being one in the same, when the Normal/RP players and the pro-ganking PvP'ers both hold a very similar position on this all. AND, the Normal/RP'ers are not, for the most part, suggesting to change the existing PvP mechanics or dynamics existing on the PvP servers at all.

Basically, it seems, from what I've seen, the pro-ganking PvP'ers are defending themselves and their playstyle, in an aggressive way, against people who are really not even disputing them on it at all... people who agree that people who don't want to be ganked, should very well not be on the PvP servers. But these same people also have made suggestions about what would need to be different to make PvP acceptable to them... not as an attack on the PvP realms, just more that they don't play on the PvP realms, and what would need to be different to make them interested in playing on a PvP realm would be... of course, not implying or suggesting changing the PvP realms at all, but rather making a new kind of realm entirely that handles that mechanic.

There is, once again, no reason for the outright hostile attitude presented. This is a discussion forum, and on such a system, people, y'know.... discuss things. I fail to see how people discussing things is in any way something to be so offensive or hostile about. It is especially needless when the point of discussion does not impact you or how you play in the slightest.

[rgirty]

My 14 year old brother was having a nightmare one night in which he woke up screaming "carebear, carebear"

We mocked him endlessly.

*true story

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Remember when I said this place is becoming more and more like the officials and i was told that was "incorrect" in not such nice wording...

Well, read thread after thread my friend..

I'll agree that it seems the quality of people who have joined this forum system has gone down, that doesn't mean we should just throw in the towel and call it quits. I'm always wanting this community to retain the maturity and responsibility it has had. And for the most part, it has.

[rgirty]

I'll agree that it seems the quality of people who have joined this forum system has gone down, that doesn't mean we should just throw in the towel and call it quits. I'm always wanting this community to retain the maturity and responsibility it has had. And for the most part, it has.

Finally someone who can see things other than flowers and sunshine.

I'm still here, even tho I often give myself long breaks to post on other boards.

It isn't the quality of posters, its the restriction of posting and the invasion of the ad placement coupled with the layout that keep me away for a few days at a time.

Oh well /derail off now.

[det]

I don't mind being called a carebear, I really don't.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I don't mind being called a carebear, I really don't.

I do, but then again, I absolutely hated that show, and pretty much everything about it. I also remember when the term was coined in EQ... at the time, it seemed fitting, because the "carebear" servers, there was quite literally no PvP, and everyone could be allies -- Dark Elves, High Elves, Humans, Trolls, Ogres, etc. Those were the PvE servers, strictly PvE, no PvP at all. Even so, I did not care for the term "carebear" much, because it seemed to be used in a self-superiority context, a very derisive term used to mock PvE server players. Since I have a hard time swallowing that the Normal and RP servers are PvE (that is, strictly PvE and not PvP), but rather they are voluntary PvP servers, I find the term carebear even more offensive and incorrect.

[Aerath]

This is a discussion forum, and on such a system, people, y'know.... discuss things. I fail to see how people discussing things is in any way something to be so offensive or hostile about. It is especially needless when the point of discussion does not impact you or how you play in the slightest.

I have little problem with those offering the idea of making new servers. I take issue with those rolling on a PvP server and then crying because they can't deal with it - and then suggesting the server (rule set) should be changed.

I do feel that such a PvP-lite (for lack of a better term) server as you suggest would be an exercise in futility. For every possible 'rule' you wish to create, I can come up with at least one exploit.

[NOYB]

Even so, I did not care for the term "carebear" much, because it seemed to be used in a self-superiority context, a very derisive term used to mock PvE server players. Since I have a hard time swallowing that the Normal and RP servers are PvE (that is, strictly PvE and not PvP), but rather they are voluntary PvP servers, I find the term carebear even more offensive and incorrect.

I think the issue is you take the term too much to heart. Maybe you have a *snicker* "tender" heart *snicker*. :)

Relax man. You're running the risk of taking things way too seriously when you get offended by being labeled a carebear. It's not like some guy on the street is going to identify you as a player on a normal realm. Heck, I have toons on PvE realms, because my wife prefers them. Whenever we play together, that's where I am. Do I care that I'm playing on a carebear realm? Not at all. It's just a game. No one really cares what your realm preference is.

I can see it now: Job application. Please check which realm your toons are on. PvP or PvE.

"Bill get a load of this. This guy has a rogue on a PvE realm. 'LMAO, what a noob carebear. I'll bet he's ghey.'"

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Makes no difference. I don't care about what people on the street thing with regards to this, I'm not in discussions with them here. I'm in a discussion with people here, and for an open discussion to take place, then all parties need to not be making derisive statements at the other party, but instead focus on the actual topic at hand.

[NOYB]

That's the problem. When the best argument you can come up with is, "The PvP players hurt my feelings. Therefore, they must be wrong on this issue, because everyone is supposed to be nice in video games." Then, you don't have an argument.

PvP players don't have a superiority complex. You have an inferiority complex.

This whole discussion reeks of Political Correctness. It's like insisting that crippled people be called handi-capable or differently-abled. As if merely using a different term makes them less crippled. It doesn't. It just comes across as pointless feel good speech.

A carebear by any other name is still a carebear.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

That's the problem. When the best argument you can come up with is, "The PvP players hurt my feelings. Therefore, they must be wrong on this issue, because everyone is supposed to be nice in video games." Then, you don't have an argument.

And if that is what you got from my statement.... wow, you completely and utterly failed. I don't care for the term carebear. Now, that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual point of the discussion that has been going on here whatsoever. It was more a sidetrack than anything. Don't go reaching conclusions that were neither given, nor implied.

PvP players don't have a superiority complex. You have an inferiority complex.

Never, ever, ever said PvP players had a superiority complex. I said that the term "carebear" is derisive, and is typically spoken from a position of superiority over others. There is a difference. And it isn't a subtle one either.

This whole discussion reeks of Political Correctness. It's like insisting that crippled people be called handi-capable or differently-abled. As if merely using a different term makes them less crippled. It doesn't. It just comes across as pointless feel good speech.

A carebear by any other name is still a carebear.

The term carebear is insulting. Plain and simple. Some might have decided it isn't, but that doesn't make it less insulting. Especially as I do PvP, I just am not on an obligatory PvP server, I'm on a voluntary one. I get to decide when I want to fight or not, rather than having others make the decision for me like on a PvP server. Carebear honestly doesn't fit with WoW, because there are no pure PvE servers in this game.

[NavySEALBrian]

I'm surpised no body mentioned a key point. In PvP, it is player VERSUS player. Now, let's think about this logically. If A fights B, and B can fight A, then it is versus. But it goes a little deeper at the same time. If A can fight B, B can fight A, but A has 100% of winning, then it's not versus. That is called victimizing. Now, for all those that state being ganked is what PvP is all about, you would be technically wrong. What you are considering PvP should really be called PkV (Player killing Victim).
Now, I had been ganked, and this being on a PvE server. I go to Undercity on my hunter just to get a token from Elder. I went there just for a token, wasn't bothering the Horde what so ever, and some ?? prick mage had to cast 3 spells on me. The fact that it took him 3 spells is pathetic in and of itself, but him camping my corpse was more pathetic. Well, anyways, I die another time, but that's the last I saw of him as I had jumped onto my main, and was considering to going there and laying his face on the floor as many times as I could. I had my hearth and bubble ready should anything happen. But I barely even got onto the boat before I logged off and logged back onto my hunter. At which point he was gone, and I had logged off right by my corpse. I ressurct and run for the entrance. Two players attack me, one who was 1/3 of my level. What did I do? I froze him with my trap, and ran from the other with my the aspect of cheetah on. Neither of them were worth shooting my ammo at or losing durabilty on my weapons. And for those that say you lose nothing for being ganked, you are morons. Ever wonder how you get repair bills by doing BGs all day? Anyways, I'm running through Western Plaguelands, still on my 37 hunter. Everything is ?? and I'm still tagged because of being in Undercity. Two Blood Elfs are riding behind me. A 70 paladin in tier gear and some mid 50s priest. The paladin had respect (or maybe has the brains to realise ganking greys gets you nothing)and didn't even bother going for me, but the **** with her just HAD to gank me. It's bad enough I had to die two more times from ?? mobs going for 2 tokens in WPL, but seriously, gank a lowbie because he's doing an event? Can it get any more pathetic. I rolled my toons on a PvE realm, because I know PvP realms are full of rejects who have so much time on their hands that they log triple and quadruple digit played days on their toons and go around killing lowbies for kicks. It wasn't my fault the Elder was in UC, nor was it my fault that Blizzard made it so you are automatically tagged in the city. Seriously, do they have to tag EVERYONE? I couldn't imagine what a 37 hunter could do in a city other than die from one hit from a guard. Ganking a lowbie is pathetic in the first place, but ganking one doing an event quest or in ?? territory is even more pathetic.
Although it was more interesting with my paladin, him being 70. I was able to collect all 50 tokens without problems. That includes the elders in UC, Orgrimmar, and Thunderbluff. Not one player attacked me, it was only the guards that did anything to me, and I didn't even lose half my life by the time I got to the Elders and back out. Even better when I was doing laps in UC because I didn't know where the Elder was, a 70 orc actually showed me. Even if he had attacked me, I would have fought him. It would have been a fair fight, somewhat, considering I was still in 60 PvP gear and holy specced. But at least I wasn't ganked, nor could I being 70. Neither do I normally go killing tagged lowbies. The only exception would be if they decided to fight me for whatever reason. I had one incident where there was a 60 warlock, and I was 60, who I guess was running lowbies through Dead Mines, but it was near the back exit. He was tagged, so I went for him, killed him off, and his party members were attacking me, now I'm near death from fighting the warlock, and even though they were doing crap damage, it's not something you want when you are about to die. So I kill them off, but only once. Well they reserected after they lost their tags anyways, but I wouldn't have bothered ganking them had they been tagged.
Now, about this whole ganking business, I do believe its should be restricted. Not because it's out of hand, not because I think so. It's all because the game is no longer is PvP. As I stated before, it's more like "Player killing Victim." Would people always play games they always won, or always lost? Definetly not, unless you struggle at winning but manage to win anyways (being pro) or struggle to win but end up always losing (unlucky or slightly disadvantaged). You want COMPETITION, which is not being ganked by some loser who has no life because he has so much free time from smooching off his parents and living in their basement at the age of 40. If you die but you put up a good fight, you would be pissed for dying (or bored waiting to resurect) but appreciate the fact that you still put up a good fight. That's what PvP is all about. PvP FTW, but PkV FTL. They should restrict players from killing "grey" players. Or, make an interesting debuff where if you do kill a lowbie, you can't kill another player, but another player can still kill you. It lasts until you get killed by another player.
See, and the problem is, ganking happens on PvP realms, but also the PvE realms. And all the people who say ganking should be allowed, and call the anti-gankers carebears and telling them to go play on PvE realms are just morons. I did roll on a PvE realm, but I'm still getting ganked! And it's even worse problem when you don't tag yourself intentionally. Auto attacks can get you tagged when assholes jump in front of you. I had one problem when I was dueling, but there was a tagged horde near me. The duel was just about to start when I prematurely pressed the Judge spell, only to switch my target, the person who I was dueling but yet didn't turn attackable, to the tagged horde. Just great, I have all the goblins in Gadgetzan jump me because of a stupid interface flaw. Although it wasn't a gank, this is stuff people do to others. They have the other person accidently tag themself only to then gank them. The problem of ganking NEEDS to be fixed.

[det]

Wall of text crits you for 12 732 damage! You go blind.

Ahhhh...Carebears was a show. Didn't even know that...guess that is why I have no associations whatsoever with the "title"

[caldepen]

Wall of text crits you for 12 732 damage! You go blind.
I love that! I laugh everytime!
The only thing I would accept as a rule change is that traps, mage stuff, entangle and such don't get resisted as much. That would give lowbies a fighting chance to get away. I think it makes sense that the chance to resist effects should only be higher for mobs. For PvP the percentage to resist should be all the same. You still couldn't kill a 70 but it would at least give you an opportunity to spit on him and run!

This would also make world battles more fun because low guys could have input as well.

I am just picturing a 70 in one of my freezing traps with spit dribbling down the ice in front of his face!

[Aerath]

Wall of text crits you for 12 732 damage! You go blind.

Ahhhh...Carebears was a show. Didn't even know that...guess that is why I have no associations whatsoever with the "title"

Had to dig in my memory as well, but it's a bunch of pink fluffy toy bears with an icon on their tummy who can shoot rainbows from said icon.

How anyone can object to being compared to a pink toy bear shooting rainbows is beyond me :ponder:

wallofpants

Hold a second - someone complaining how he got killed while in enemy territory ? :hanky:

Just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier.

[dgrampa]

Wall of text snipped but to sum it up:
Killing grays isn't fair and it makes me really upset. This one time, as alliance, I strolled right in to a Horde capitol city, and they blew me to bits over and over. Like at least 3 times. I couldn't believe what was happening and it made me so angry. So I decided I should get my 70 and roll back in there and get my revenge...in the middle of UC. But then I decided not to, and you'll never guess what? They killed me again on the way out. So yeah, killing grays is really unfair and makes me really upset. So we should change the rules even on a PvE server because it is still unfair.

Yes, god forbid completing an event should be any sort of challenge.

Pro tip: Navy SEAL isn't the best name to choose if you are going to get upset about anything that poses a challenge.

[NOYB]

Never, ever, ever said PvP players had a superiority complex. I said that the term "carebear" is derisive, and is typically spoken from a position of superiority over others. There is a difference. And it isn't a subtle one either.


This reminds me of Bill Clinton at his investigation, going on about the definition of "is." What you're saying is the same thing as people having delusions of grandeur. So no, there isn't a difference.

Hey, even carebears fought back from time to time. Ever see them do a carebear stare? OP! Nerf Carebears!

Really, Darkhelm, get over it. There's no such thing as "voluntary PvP." It's like being in the military during wartime, stationed stateside. Yeah, you can tell everyone you served during "the war." It just comes across as being disingenuous. Might as well show them your papercut war wounds while you're at it.

Does PvP happen on PvE servers? Sure. Is it the same? No. If you get to take your flag off, it's not the same. End of discussion.

[det]

Yes, god forbid completing an event should be any sort of challenge.

Pro tip: Navy SEAL isn't the best name to choose if you are going to get upset about anything that poses a challenge.

Come to think of, even on a PvE server one of the most impossible quests must be to return Hercular's rod to his grave in Sothshore. ?? guards for you even at lv 37 or so, when the quest turns green.

Yeah right. So at least I can chose not to do this quest.

....................................

Sticky this thread so we can have fun with it even in 2 years time.....

[NOYB]

They made the quest much easier. (Probably all the carebears dying to the guards.) ;)

[Dhoum]

This whole discussion reeks of Political Correctness. It's like insisting that crippled people be called handi-capable or differently-abled. As if merely using a different term makes them less crippled. It doesn't. It just comes across as pointless feel good speech.

Some terms are offensive to the people those terms are used to describe. Some of those terms are racist, some sexist, some homophobic and some, like the term you used above demeans people with disabilities. These terms don't usually describe their subject very well and are used, generally, to specifically belittle.

Whilst I agree that there may be aspects of the much-maligned "political correctness" that has shot itself in the foot; I am grateful that, as a society, we seem to have largely grown out of thinking terms like "******", "cripple" or "faggot" are cool. Indeed, such terms now cause most people to react negatively to the use of the term ... sadly you do not seem to be "most people".

The argument that you seem to be making is that it's ok to use a demeaning or insulting term to describe someone; and that when someone calls you on using that term and asks you to stop using it you cry "political correctness gone mad!" as if it's their fault that the term you chose to use is an insult, not yours.

That's the problem. When the best argument you can come up with is, "The PvP players hurt my feelings. Therefore, they must be wrong on this issue, because everyone is supposed to be nice in video games." Then, you don't have an argument.

Except that what you've described doesn't seem to me to be the content of the majority of arguments in favour of a new rule-set. The argument actually seems to be more along the lines of "I would like to play on a server where world PvP rules strongly discourage combat where the higher-level character cannot gain honour, but where world PvP between characters of similar level can happen at any time." If the best counter you can come up with is to call us by a demeaning name then I'm afraid that you fail ... epically.

Honestly, from what I've seen, it has not been people who are on Normal/RP servers that want the PvP servers to change, those posts, like my own, have rather been suggestions to a new kind of server all together, one that may be appealing to us... all speculation, and for the most part nobody has said it has to happen, or even was likely to happen. Just ideas tossed around.

...

There is, once again, no reason for the outright hostile attitude presented. This is a discussion forum, and on such a system, people, y'know.... discuss things. I fail to see how people discussing things is in any way something to be so offensive or hostile about. It is especially needless when the point of discussion does not impact you or how you play in the slightest.

The above Quoted for Truth.

Now where we could be having a really good discussion about how this hypothetical server-type might work, instead the majority of people who are on the pro-gank "side" seem to be interested in telling us to "roll PvE". So you don't miss it again Xlorep and I are on normal/RP servers, but we are rhapsodising about a type of server that both of us would enjoy playing on if it were available. We both enjoy world PvP, we both dislike dishonourable kills ... why is that such a tough concept to grasp and why does wanting a fair fight mean that you should feel free to insult us?

[Aerath]

[...] we are rhapsodising about a type of server that both of us would enjoy playing on if it were available. We both enjoy world PvP, we both dislike dishonourable kills ... why is that such a tough concept to grasp and why does wanting a fair fight [...] ?

Let this bit sink in please:
There is no single way to make a rule set where fights will be fair. None.
The *closest* thing you can get is one twink duking it out vs another twink in a battleground.

Worded slightly different, but as a solid wisdom states - if you pick a fair fight, you picked the wrong time.

//edit: Correction - there is a way to make a server where fights will be 'fair'. In fact, that's what Blizzard are doing currently with a Tournament Arena server. However, that does not include any world pvp.

[caldepen]

However, that does not include any world pvp.

BOooooorriinnggg...

[Dhoum]

Let this bit sink in please:
There is no single way to make a rule set where fights will be fair. None.
The *closest* thing you can get is one twink duking it out vs another twink in a battleground.

By my definition (see earlier posts) any fight in which all contestants stand to gain honour if they win is "fair" for the purposes of this discussion. I am well aware that there would be other issues that may qualify as "ganking" by some definitions but I think I've made my conditions fairly clear ... I'd like to start from a position of it being impossible or extremely disadvantageous for a character to initiate PvP combat against another character who would not yield honour if defeated.

One solution I can think of is to make opponents who would yield no honour "blue", deliberately attempting to circumvent this would invoke GM wrath in much the same way as other exploits are treated on normal servers.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Let this bit sink in please:
There is no single way to make a rule set where fights will be fair. None.
The *closest* thing you can get is one twink duking it out vs another twink in a battleground.

Worded slightly different, but as a solid wisdom states - if you pick a fair fight, you picked the wrong time.

//edit: Correction - there is a way to make a server where fights will be 'fair'. In fact, that's what Blizzard are doing currently with a Tournament Arena server. However, that does not include any world pvp.

Ok, but because of that, that means nobody can speculate on what they personally feel would be fair? People can't throw ideas together, and possibly latch onto each other's ideas to develop a better one?

Since you claim there is no way to make it fair, therefore all discussion on the topic should simply cease. Intellectual exercises and open discussions just get in the way of your personal viewpoint, correct?

I find it ironic that on this forum, people are attacking others for daring to voice their opinions on this subject, and the frequent retort used, rather than anything really clever, or any kind of actual response, is to ridicule them and tell them to basically shut up because they don't know what they are talking about. Your position seems to be one where you believe you know what PvP is, and isn't, and anyone else who dares to suggest anything different is not only wrong, but seems to be fundamentally stupid. You are entitled to your opinion, but so are those who may not agree with you.

PvP is, to me, like an electronic form of a sport. And as such, I believe it should be sporting -- the closer the fight, the more exciting and thrilling it is. When one side completely overwhelms the other side, there just is plain no fun in it for me, I don't care if I'm either party or an observer off to the side. the best fights are the ones that are relatively fair. Where strategy and tactics come into play, where both sides can demonstrate their capabilities above and beyond mechanical differences like levels. Honestly, I would love to see a server designed that caters more to that. I have some ideas on it, they are rough, and definitely not perfect. But it seems that the very concept is abhorrent to you in every way, and you feel the need to attack anyone who thinks otherwise. I fail to see how my opinion on what I'd like to see in such a server in any way hurts you, your playstyle, or anything else like that. Unless you believe that flocks of people will evacuate your PvP server for it, and therefore you wouldn't be able to play as easily the way you want to -- but if that is why... then maybe there is something wrong with the PvP servers as they stand after all. But, if there is no concern that people would leave the PvP servers in droves, I fail to se how discussion of a different kind of server, on a completely intellectual level can result in such vehement angst on your part.

Why is it so wrong for someone to have a different point of view than yours? I can see making a counter argument supporting your point of view, and possibly even describing what you see as a failure of the other one... but why the apparent anger against those who may have that different point of view? Especially in a game that caters to a wide array of tastes?

[Aerath]

Ok, but because of that, that means nobody can speculate on what they personally feel would be fair? People can't throw ideas together, and possibly latch onto each other's ideas to develop a better one?

Since you claim there is no way to make it fair, therefore all discussion on the topic should simply cease. Intellectual exercises and open discussions just get in the way of your personal viewpoint, correct?

Feel free to come up with ideas. I'll feel free to shoot them down.

[rgirty]

By my definition (see earlier posts) any fight in which all contestants stand to gain honour if they win is "fair" for the purposes of this discussion. I am well aware that there would be other issues that may qualify as "ganking" by some definitions but I think I've made my conditions fairly clear ... I'd like to start from a position of it being impossible or extremely disadvantageous for a character to initiate PvP combat against another character who would not yield honour if defeated.

One solution I can think of is to make opponents who would yield no honour "blue", deliberately attempting to circumvent this would invoke GM wrath in much the same way as other exploits are treated on normal servers.

You would also have to use gear to decide if this yields honor or not.

A fresh 70 in tailored gear I assume would give honor to a 70 in arena gear.

A 70char in s3 arena gear would take out a 70 with 6khp in tailored gear in 2 shots, only 1 more shot than required to gank someone 30 or 40 levels below him.

Got a fix for that too?

[NOYB]

To be totally fair to everyone, all the time, makes either no holds barred, or no danger at all. There can be no middle ground. A middle ground insinuates some type of refereeing going on.

I can see it now. "Mr. GM, these guys jumped me while I was farming primals. This is in no way a fair fight. I was merely minding my own business and *BAM* killed for no reason whatsoever. I believe those guys owe me an apology for interrupting my grinding session."

"Hmmm.... I see you agreed to roll on a PvP server." "Yes, but I wasn't ready and they outnumbered me 2:1."

"That is tragic. I'll give them a talking to in a very unpleasant tone. I'm sorry they violated rule 23 section b on voluntary PvP."

--

What you guys want is someone to walk up to you and slap you across the face with a white glove announcing a challenge. Whilst waiting patiently for you to prepare yourself and draw up some rules of engagement. That's not world PvP. It's dueling/ARENA. If that's what you want so bad, it's there for the taking. Go get it.

[NOYB]

Some terms are offensive to the people those terms are used to describe. Some of those terms are racist, some sexist, some homophobic and some, like the term you used above demeans people with disabilities. These terms don't usually describe their subject very well and are used, generally, to specifically belittle.


Look. This is World of Warcraft. Not Candy Land. If being labeled a carebear is deeply offensive, you have no business being on a PvP realm - at all. All that is in store for you is anguish.

The term I used, "cripple" wasn't originally meant to demean. Can it be used to offend? I'm sure it could, but a person could use anything to demean if used in the wrong tone. Then of course there's people that are hyper-sensitive to any and everything. Things have got to the point that you can't even mark a child's test with red ink, because it has unpleasant connotations. :rolleyes:

[Dhoum]

I think I've made what I want abundantly clear ... what is puzzling me is the way in which the simple idea I am raising for discussion is somehow being turned by some members of the pro-ganking fraternity into something else entirely.

I am talking about the level of honour as it currently stands. If you want to discuss something else then by all means go right ahead but please don't accuse me of something I have neither said nor even insinuated.

What you guys want is someone to walk up to you and slap you across the face with a white glove announcing a challenge. Whilst waiting patiently for you to prepare yourself and draw up some rules of engagement. That's not world PvP. It's dueling/ARENA. If that's what you want so bad, it's there for the taking. Go get it.

If that was what I wanted then, curious though it may seem, that is what I would have said I wanted.

Throughout this discussion I have very specifically used the words "World PvP" ... this isn't because I liked the way it looked on the page, it is because that is what I meant. Now please try to respond to the points that are being made without recourse to putting words into my mouth or using derogatory terms. If you really can't manage to do this then I would suggest that any attempt at an adult discussion with you is doomed to failure.

[dgrampa]

Ideas:

Make it so high levels can't attack low levels.
FAIL - Low levels can now gang up on high levels.

Make it so high levels can't attack low levels unless the low levels attack the high levels first.
FAIL - Low level healers can now heal the other low levels while the high levels cannot do anything to stop the healers.

Make it so high levels receive debuffs when entering low level areas.
FAIL - You can no longer help low level guildies with their quests.

What are you going to do about a 5 man party of 70s who gank a single 70 out farming before they zone in? What about a 25 man raid that ganks a 5 man party? What about a 70 that ganks another 70 when he is low on health from farming? What about a 70 toon that ganks another toon he vastly out-gears and is a natural counter-class to said victim? What about a 70 who ganks a 61? All of these situations feature victims who have as small of a chance of surviving as a 20 who is ganked by a 70. Surely you believe that this behavior is also unfair and must be addressed? Some people have said that if someone receives honor points from the kill then the behavior is justified. Well then what about the 24 people waiting for a half hour for their 25th to log on that kill the same 5 70s over and over at the summoning stone, thereby delaying the victims' entire raid from starting on time? They are getting no more honor after a few kills.

People aren't bashing others in this thread because they feel threatened. They are pointing out that these ideas have been hashed out before. Many times. They are pointing out that some people need to think about their ideas before posting. Maybe even do a little research and find out why their idea was shot down 1000 times already.

Also, it seems some anti-gankers are getting the terms 'ganking' and 'corpse-camping' confused.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Feel free to come up with ideas. I'll feel free to shoot them down.

You haven't been shooting them down, you've just ranted about how the ideas were basically stupid. With nothing supporting your claim, other than the impression that your way is the only right way. Honestly, that is not conducive to an open debate or discussion. It is an attitude I'd expect on the Official Forums, however.

Look. This is World of Warcraft. Not Candy Land. If being labeled a carebear is deeply offensive, you have no business being on a PvP realm - at all. All that is in store for you is anguish.

Not on a PvP realm. How many different ways can I stress it -- I AM NOT ON A PVP REALM. I play on a Normal realm. That said, I have proposed ideas which I think would make a realm which allows more open PvP appealing to me. So far, the only things I've seen as a counter to it is "that won't happen" -- which, in my initial statements, and regular points of discussion, I've made abundantly clear that I am certain they wouldn't happen, but that does not mean I can't at least discuss the concept on an intellectual level.

The term I used, "cripple" wasn't originally meant to demean. Can it be used to offend? I'm sure it could, but a person could use anything to demean if used in the wrong tone. Then of course there's people that are hyper-sensitive to any and everything. Things have got to the point that you can't even mark a child's test with red ink, because it has unpleasant connotations. :rolleyes:

Ok, so because anything can be used to offend, therefore might as well just go ahead and remain offensive, because there is no way to please everyone :rolleyes: That is a serious cop-out.

Now, like I said before, I don't think that what I'd like to see as adjustments to PvP are practical -- that is, I think it would be more trouble than it is worth. As such, I do not play on a PvP realm, period. I don't complain about ganking, as I don't have to worry about it, and I believe that if someone has a problem with ganking and plays on a PvP realm, that person is getting what he/she signed up for on a PvP realm. It is permitted in Blizzard's rules for PvP realms, there is no doubt. If someone has a problem with it on one of those realms, there are two (well, maybe three) options available: 1. transfer your character(s) to a Normal or RP realm; 2. Make a new character on a Normal or RP realm; 3. Suck it up and move on. On these points I completely and utterly agree with the pro-ganking PvP'ers who have posted in this thread. I completely concur, and totally believe that is the position which Blizzard's own rules and policies supports.

That said, I don't play on a PvP (or RP/PvP) realm. Because I find it incredibly irritating and a complete waste of my time and energy to be in a situation where someone 30+ levels higher than me can go around and kill me, for no other reason needed than because the person was bored and saw a red tag over my head. There is, to me no challenge in such a situation. There is no excitement, there is no thrill. All there is, is me getting killed, and making yet another annoying corpse run that wastes my time. What a few people here say is "no big deal" -- the corpse run -- to me, personally, is. I really dislike corpse runs, and being one- or two-shotted by someone 30+ levels higher than me because the guy is bored means I get to make yet another corpse run, and waste more of my time. Time which is, for me, very limited. I might have 1 hour to play. I know I can do a quest or two in that time, so I push myself to do that. Instead of being able to complete what I set out to do, I spend my time making a corpse run because someone got their rocks off on killing me. Yeah, that's just a great feeling.

Because of that I don't play on a PvP realm -- it is not worth my trouble. Hey, if people like that scenario, and being part of it, great. It just is not my thing. Everyone's entitled top their particular playstyle I say, and I am not here to try to convince people who are die-hard pro-ganking that my way is superior to theirs or any such nonsense. I'm just expressing my opinion on the subject, and my reasons for not being on a PvP server. As that is my main reason for not being on a PvP server, I then can speculate on what kind of changes to the PvP system I might personally find acceptable, on a new kind of realm altogether -- since, once again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and playstyle, and I would not want to intrude on the people who enjoy the existing PvP servers.

Like I said before -- while I think that the level difference is the main problem, unfortunately, it is a conditional situation. BECAUSE I am positive there are situations where a high-level would be justified in killing a low-level person. These justified situations are what I believe makes this an impractical scenario, because getting the mechanics to function to be able to identify these situations correctly would be a monstrous proposition at best, and completely unwieldy. As such, I totally do not think that Blizzard could, in all practicality, implement it, nor would I want them to spend any manhours making it happen. I am not proposing otherwise. All I've done is an intellectual exercise, a sort of "what if?" scenario if you will. Since I don't think it is a practical solution, or even want Blizzard to spend time on it, telling me that it is stupid and won't ever happen because of X reason or Y reason is a pointless exercise -- since I already had stated that was the case. "Shooting it down" for reasons of practicality does no such thing, the impractical nature was already conceded before I started.

So, please stop with the going around in circles about the parts I already conceded. I merely was expressing what I personally would find a good solution to make a server that has open world PvP more appealing. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Aerath]

You haven't been shooting them down, you've just ranted about how the ideas were basically stupid. With nothing supporting your claim, other than the impression that your way is the only right way. Honestly, that is not conducive to an open debate or discussion. It is an attitude I'd expect on the Official Forums, however.

I haven't shot anything down as there hasn't been anything posted yet to shoot down.

All you stated was that you would be able to come up with a system and a way to set the rules to where you would enjoy the PvP-lite server.

I've yet to see you post said system, and thus haven't been able to shoot it down yet.

[rgirty]

You have or will have the following options.

BG's- available on all realms.
Arena- available on all realms.
PvP zone w/siege engines and such- available on all realms.
World PVP - available on PVP realms.
Arena realm - self descriptive
No world pvp - available on PvE realms.


Seriously, is that not enough? Pick what you want to do and where. Don't try to marry a pve and pvp server by muddying the rules about who can attack who.

[Dhoum]

Make it so high levels can't attack low levels.
FAIL - Low levels can now gang up on high levels.
WIN - Low levels attacking high levels flag themselves for PvP ... same as they do now on normal servers.

Make it so high levels can't attack low levels unless the low levels attack the high levels first.
FAIL - Low level healers can now heal the other low levels while the high levels cannot do anything to stop the healers.
WIN - Characters healing or buffing someone in PvP combat flag themselves for PvP ... same as they do now on normal servers.

Make it so high levels receive debuffs when entering low level areas.
FAIL - You can no longer help low level guildies with their quests.
Not one of my suggestions and actually I agree with you. It makes little sense to me that a level 70 suddenly becomes (effectively) a level 20 when entering a level 20 area.

What are you going to do about a 5 man party of 70s who gank a single 70 out farming before they zone in?
Nothing, that's World PvP.

What about a 25 man raid that ganks a 5 man party?
Nothing, that's World PvP.

What about a 70 that ganks another 70 when he is low on health from farming?
Nothing, that's World PvP.

What about a 70 toon that ganks another toon he vastly out-gears and is a natural counter-class to said victim?
Nothing, that's World PvP.

What about a 70 who ganks a 61?
Nothing, the 61 is green so it's a legitimate kill.

All of these situations feature victims who have as small of a chance of surviving as a 20 who is ganked by a 70. Surely you believe that this behavior is also unfair and must be addressed?
I would disagree with you about your first point. As to your second point the answer is ... not for the purposes of this discussion, no. I have no experience of World PvP at higher levels (outside of the PvP dailies ... and honestly I don't think they count as World PvP) so such a discussion is not one I'd care to embark upon with any confidence. That being said, I see no reason why my "if it's grey to you then PvP cannot be initiated against it" cannot work for cases of corpse-camping every bit as well as it may do for ganking.

People aren't bashing others in this thread because they feel threatened. They are pointing out that these ideas have been hashed out before. Many times. They are pointing out that some people need to think about their ideas before posting. Maybe even do a little research and find out why their idea was shot down 1000 times already.
A thousand times and you haven't addressed the first two items on your list yet? Who were you discussing this with? A brick wall? Something tells me you might be exaggerating just the tiniest bit. By the way, please feel free to refer back to these thousand discussions if I raise any points that have been specifically discussed (note I use the word "discussed" there) and resolved before.

Also, it seems some anti-gankers are getting the terms 'ganking' and 'corpse-camping' confused.
What leads you to believe that? I am certainly not confused and I don't think that I have made any comments that might lead you to draw that conclusion. Please feel free to point out where this is the case.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I haven't shot anything down as there hasn't been anything posted yet to shoot down.

All you stated was that you would be able to come up with a system and a way to set the rules to where you would enjoy the PvP-lite server.

I've yet to see you post said system, and thus haven't been able to shoot it down yet.

That would be because at most, the idea is nebulous, as I have stated. It is nothing that I can simply define, because, yet again it is not a clear-cut or easy solution, I have a very general, "high-level" view of it, but the details are not something I have had the time or inclination to hammer out.

You have or will have the following options.

BG's- available on all realms.
Arena- available on all realms.
PvP zone w/siege engines and such- available on all realms.
World PVP - available on PVP realms.
Arena realm - self descriptive
No world pvp - available on PvE realms.


Seriously, is that not enough? Pick what you want to do and where. Don't try to marry a pve and pvp server by muddying the rules about who can attack who.

Why does it hurt for me to speculate and/or dream about a different kind of server? How does this, in any way, harm you? Why is the very idea so troubling that you have to condemn it wholehartedly with almost fundamentalist zeal?

[det]

The chances of coming to a consensus in this thread or actually creating a "fair" pvp environment are as high as Palastinians and Israelis making a peace treaty.

[PlayThemAll]

Why does it hurt for me to speculate and/or dream about a different kind of server? How does this, in any way, harm you? Why is the very idea so troubling that you have to condemn it wholehartedly with almost fundamentalist zeal?

I think the basis for resistence is the premis of the thread "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking?". The title alone implies that changes should be made to the existing system, which a lot of players are opposed to. While some posts were specifically referencing the possibility of something new, many were flat out cries of nerfdon to the existing PvP environment.

Personally I have no problem with a new server type if thats what people want. I just don't like the idea of nerfing the existing PvP realms.

[dgrampa]

WIN - Low levels attacking high levels flag themselves for PvP ... same as they do now on normal servers.

FAIL - 5 19 twinks now gain the ability to not only gank a 30, but ensure that they get the first shot(s) in.


WIN - Characters healing or buffing someone in PvP combat flag themselves for PvP ... same as they do now on normal servers.

FAIL - see above.


...

I would disagree with you about your first point.

So you think a 5 man team has a shot against a 25 man team? Or 1 70 has a shot against 5? Or a level 70 at 10% health has a realistic shot against that 70 rogue stealthed right behind him? I am curious as to why you disagree? Please elaborate.

...

That being said, I see no reason why my "if it's grey to you then PvP cannot be initiated against it" cannot work for cases of corpse-camping every bit as well as it may do for ganking.

See FAIL above.


A thousand times and you haven't addressed the first two items on your list yet? Who were you discussing this with? A brick wall? Something tells me you might be exaggerating just the tiniest bit. By the way, please feel free to refer back to these thousand discussions if I raise any points that have been specifically discussed (note I use the word "discussed" there) and resolved before.


What leads you to believe that? I am certainly not confused and I don't think that I have made any comments that might lead you to draw that conclusion. Please feel free to point out where this is the case.

So you think this is a new idea? You think I am exaggerating and this topic hasn't been breached at least a thousand times on the official forums alone, let alone here and every other WoW forum? I am not going to hold your hand and teach you how to use the internet. If you really think I am exaggerating, do your own research.

[Aerath]

That would be because at most, the idea is nebulous, as I have stated. It is nothing that I can simply define, because, yet again it is not a clear-cut or easy solution, I have a very general, "high-level" view of it, but the details are not something I have had the time or inclination to hammer out.

Beg pardon - but, if you can't even put it in words for yourself, let alone in writing on these forums... how on earth am I supposed to shoot holes in something that does not even exist ?

--

Det, I feel that's a really bad example. They have a better shot at reaching an agreement.

[PlayThemAll]

FAIL - 5 19 twinks now gain the ability to not only gank a 30, but ensure that they get the first shot(s) in.

This can happen now. I've taken down a 30 @ full health with a single 19 twink.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

The chances of coming to a consensus in this thread or actually creating a "fair" pvp environment are as high as Palastinians and Israelis making a peace treaty.

Not even looking for a consensus, because I know that it won't happen. Some people like ganking, others don't. It is a matter of opinion, and as such, people are going to have widely diverse opinions on the subject. The whole idea of a consensus I think was abandoned on page 3 or 4 of this thread.

I think the basis for resistence is the premis of the thread "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking?". The title alone implies that changes should be made to the existing system, which a lot of players are opposed to. While some posts were specifically referencing the possibility of something new, many were flat out cries of nerfdon to the existing PvP environment.

Personally I have no problem with a new server type if thats what people want. I just don't like the idea of nerfing the existing PvP realms.

Well, the thread's title, and the original ideas were proposed by someone who is playing on a PvP realm and had a complaint. I believe that was basically, and quickly dealt with and resolved with the idea of what options are currently available to handle the situation. Such comments more or less stopped about halfway through the thread.... the discussion moved onto other ideas related to the original topic.

[dgrampa]

This can happen now. I've taken down a 30 @ full health with a single 19 twink.

Right, but on the magical server we are discussing, a level 30 toon out leveling would be a sitting duck with no chance to fight back against a roaming pack of bored twinks waiting in queue.

[PlayThemAll]

Right, but on the magical server we are discussing, a level 30 toon out leveling would be a sitting duck with no chance to fight back against a roaming pack of bored twinks waiting in queue.


Yes, but they made the choice to roll on the new PVP-Lite realm. :grin:

But I see your point, people will find ways around just about anything. Just look at how people find exploits and such on the existing Normal realms.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Yes, but they made the choice to roll on the new PVP-Lite realm. :grin:

But I see your point, people will find ways around just about anything. Just look at how people find exploits and such on the existing Normal realms.

If the notion that people will find ways around just about anything and how to exploit the rules is a justifiable reason to never try to implement a rule to begin with, then why bother with any rules on a server whatsoever? Why not just say "t'hell with it all", and open up all the server code and let players just do whatever they want? Wanna make it to level 70 instantly? Why not. After all, people will find exploits to level faster anyway. Wanna be able to kill anyone whenever you feel like it? Why not just let everything be one-shot kills all the time. after all, people will figure out a way to exploit the rules and get around them anyway. Might as well give everyone max gold. Heck, just do away with gold entirely... after all, people will just buy it anyway. Make everything free in the game. Yep, that's a solution.

</sarcasm>

I think in the end, it is an intellectually dishonest approach to the problem.

[odinsnephew]

*pokes head in to see if anything different is mentioned*

No, same old nonsense ;)

edit: I see more nonsense mentioned regarding people flagging on PvE servers tbh. Why do people on PvE servers either let themselves (yes I do know it happens in certain circumstances) get flagged for PvP or entice others subversively to encounter peeveepee?? I think the latter should reroll and reap what they sow and leave the PvE people alone ;)

Move along, nothing to see here folks.

[PlayThemAll]

If the notion that people will find ways around just about anything and how to exploit the rules is a justifiable reason to never try to implement a rule to begin with, then why bother with any rules on a server whatsoever? ...

I think in the end, it is an intellectually dishonest approach to the problem.

Intellectually, when making a change one must weight the cost/time needed to implement the change against the benefit of the change. Will the changes presented really be an effective means to end end or will the abilty of people to circumvent them make them pointless to implement.

The fact that people will find ways around things should not prevent changes but it does need to be taken into consideration.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Intellectually, when making a change one must weight the cost/time needed to implement the change against the benefit of the change. Will the changes presented really be an effective means to end end or will the abilty of people to circumvent them make them pointless to implement.

The fact that people will find ways around things should not prevent changes but it does need to be taken into consideration.

Which I understand, but that was not what was being presented. Instead, it was "because people can exploit this thing, there should be no rule for it anyway".

*pokes head in to see if anything different is mentioned*

No, same old nonsense ;)

edit: I see more nonsense mentioned regarding people flagging on PvE servers tbh. Why do people on PvE servers either let themselves (yes I do know it happens in certain circumstances) get flagged for PvP or entice others subversively to encounter peeveepee?? I think the latter should reroll and reap what they sow and leave the PvE people alone ;)

Move along, nothing to see here folks.

There are situations on the Normal and RP servers which can be exploited to get flagged. There are a couple quests which force you to be flagged (like in WP I know of one for horde and one for alliance), but those are minimal. There is an exploit using a hunters' snake traps to make them attack someone from the other faction without the hunter getting flagged. And there is the ever so pervasive and irritating problem which quickly just gets someone doing this to me reported in a heartbeat, where someone from the opposing faction flags himself, and proceeds to stand in your way to get you to accidentally target him rather than the mob you were fighting, or he sees you are doing something that targets multiple opponents, and he flags himself to make your ability target and hit him (flagging you) -- I have seen it happen with Cleave on my Warrior recently.

There are numerous ways people will exploit the system. Of course, pretty much everything I described above is reportable, and the person finds him or herself at the business end of a banstick, as I have no tolerance for such idiocy.

[odinsnephew]

There are situations on the Normal and RP servers which can be exploited to get flagged. There are a couple quests which force you to be flagged (like in WP I know of one for horde and one for alliance), but those are minimal. There is an exploit using a hunters' snake traps to make them attack someone from the other faction without the hunter getting flagged. And there is the ever so pervasive and irritating problem which quickly just gets someone doing this to me reported in a heartbeat, where someone from the opposing faction flags himself, and proceeds to stand in your way to get you to accidentally target him rather than the mob you were fighting, or he sees you are doing something that targets multiple opponents, and he flags himself to make your ability target and hit him (flagging you) -- I have seen it happen with Cleave on my Warrior recently.

There are numerous ways people will exploit the system. Of course, pretty much everything I described above is reportable, and the person finds him or herself at the business end of a banstick, as I have no tolerance for such idiocy.

Hhmmmm this annoys and strangely interests me equally. Why on a PvE server is someone trying to flag another player? I dont really understand the concept. Why are they not on a PvP server? I can only presume that is what they call "griefing". I thought those on PvE/RP servers quested and did the dungeons with a fair bit of bg's if they are that way inclined? With a healthy dose of RP for those guys/gals too :grin:

I have no problem with either types and I just wish people could enjoy their own game dagnabbit!!

Edit: From my own perspective - Ganking on a PvP server happens im afraid and as much as some may dislike it and I sometimes do :shocked: we will just have to suck it 'cos they ain't changing it. Just get the bastards back ;)

Peace to all :flowers:

[xDarkDrifterx]

Now, I had been ganked, and this being on a PvE server. I go to Undercity on my hunter just to get a token from Elder. I went there just for a token, wasn't bothering the Horde what so ever, and some ?? prick mage had to cast 3 spells on me. . . . . . . . . .

The real question is why were you flagged? If you weren't flagged this wouldn't have happened, and you wouldn't have felt the need to write a wall of text about it.

[elsegundo]

in pvp servers there are ways to bypass flagging in or around the "safe" zones.

go into a newb zone and stand over someone's kill.
hunters in gagetzan shoots you, feigns death, resets aggo.


happens.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Hhmmmm this annoys and strangely interests me equally. Why on a PvE server is someone trying to flag another player? I dont really understand the concept. Why are they not on a PvP server? I can only presume that is what they call "griefing". I thought those on PvE/RP servers quested and did the dungeons with a fair bit of bg's if they are that way inclined? With a healthy dose of RP for those guys/gals too :grin:

My only answer to why someone would do this is, because they feel they are entitled to do it, the whole "because they can". Another popular strategy, but can be easily avoided is trying to tempt people into attacking what seems to be a defenseless target.... like some level 30 sitting in the southern end of stranglethorne vale flagged as PvP. If someone takes the bait and attacks, then that flagged level 30's big level 60+ friends come jump out and gank the person who tried to fight him, then stealth, turn invisible, or otherwise go and hide again, letting their pvp flags drop, and then they put the level 30 back out as bait, to repeat the process. Happens all the time, but like I said, it is pretty darned easy to avoid.

I'll say it again, there is no PvE servers in WoW. The only difference between the PvP and Normal/RP servers is that on a PvP (and RP/PvP) server, you volunteered to go into an obligatory PvP situation, where once you are in there, you have no choice but to deal with PvP situations, and all the positives and negatives associated with it. If you don't like it, you leave the server. On the Normal/RP servers (that people often misnomer as "PvE" realms), the PvP is voluntary -- you can choose to participate, or not. And, you take all of the positives and negatives associated with that as well.

On Normal & RP Realms, there is:
Questing
Dungeons (normal/heroic/raiding)
Battlegrounds
Arenas
World PvP

On PvP & RP/PvP realms, there is:
Questing
Dungeons (normal/heroic/raiding)
Battlegrounds
Arenas
World PvP
Ganking

Now, there is a certain amount of excitement and thrill in not knowing whenever an attack might happen, constantly needing to be watchful and keep an eye on your surroundings in a PvP and RP/PvP server that doesn't necessarily exist as much on the Normal and RP servers.

But, mechanically, both kinds of servers offer virtually the same kinds of things. I've regularly participated (on both sides) in world PvP.... whether I'm on the winning side or losing side is not important, it just is plain fun. I've defended and fought for Halaa, or the towers in EP... heck, just ran around and fought other players in STV or Desolace. You'd be surprised how many others will flag and jump into the fray on a Normal or RP server if they start seeing others flagging themselves. I can remember the grueling work defending Tarren Mill back in the day, and how on my server, the Horde would regularly win *that* fight, despite being outnumbers 2:1 or 3:1 constantly.

The Normal and RP servers offer PvP, but they are on each player's terms, it does offer a bit more of a competitive, and semi-fairness to it most of the time. But, there is the loss of the excitement of not knowing if someone is hunting you to attack and kill you at any given moment. That, I will concede.

Honestly, I'd love if there was a way to fuse the best parts of both kinds of servers together into a new server design. Now, when I proposed that, people instead mocked or berated the notion, not understanding what I was presenting. Honestly, I know it isn't for everyone, but it was strictly an intellectual exercise. While I do think it may be possible to have the excitement of PvP servers while dealing with the irritation of people who just look for the easy kill and don't bother fighting people closer to their own level... there is a HUGE difference between possible and practical. That is why it was strictly an intellectual exercise.

[Aerath]

The real question is why were you flagged? If you weren't flagged this wouldn't have happened, and you wouldn't have felt the need to write a wall of text about it.

He was *alliance* in a *horde* capital city.

That will automatically flag you.

He made the conscious decision (I'd hope so) to go there.

And Xlorep, I thought better of you than trying to argue with a slippery slope fallacy.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

And Xlorep, I thought better of you than trying to argue with a slippery slope fallacy.

What slippery slope are you referring to?

[Aerath]

What slippery slope are you referring to?

"Oh noes ! They will exploit PvP guidelines - why not just abandon everything !?"

That one.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

"Oh noes ! They will exploit PvP guidelines - why not just abandon everything !?"

That one.

Actually, I was using hyperbole, not using a slippery slope as any kind of justification:

Right, but on the magical server we are discussing, a level 30 toon out leveling would be a sitting duck with no chance to fight back against a roaming pack of bored twinks waiting in queue.

But I see your point, people will find ways around just about anything. Just look at how people find exploits and such on the existing Normal realms.

I was merely expanding upon that train of thought, pointing out how if taken to an extreme, it is just as bad. I tend to make it a point not to reply to dgrampa any more, as a safety precaution, but the train of thought initiated from a reply I saw PlayThemAll made.

[Janfader]

i disagree. your suggestions essentiall turn every PvP server into a PvE server. best solution: roll pve.

Dude, I have no clue on how my ideals would lead to being a PvE server... I do roll on a PvE server most times however do play PvP from time to time. My suggestions are regarding the question to this thread.

Ganking is an issue - let the record show. What will Blizz do about it? Let's them decide.:idea:

[elsegundo]

There are some replies that Blizzard will never change the fact of ganking for whatever reasons... This is quite untrue due to recent studies of on-line/internet "bullying" taking place - IMO and is a serious matter. I'm sure Blizzard has been appoarched at seeing a fix for this - hence the topic of thread.

Ganking in my world of defination in WoW is:

a) One who constantly bullies another of the opposite faction by corpse camping - not allowing a fair fight upon resurrection.
b) One who is low leveled who doesn't stand a chance of a fair fight to that of a higher lvl which constantly harrases a low level character - resulting in mutliple kills in a short time frame.
c) Using game mechanics to unflag a PvE status to PvP i.e snake traps.

Solutions:

a) 1 min PvP immunity buff after ressurection to get "self" buffs, HP/Mana back to full - summon pet etc... may not interact with anyone/anything for that duration. Cannot aggro, attack/be attacked, buff any one in that allotted time frame.
b) A buff much like in Warhammer (the chicken buff on the high level)... This of course only applies to the "zone" their in. In this case if a high level'd PvP toon waltzes into a lower level zone will be chicken buffed as per the zone lvl range. If the low level enters a high level area/zone he is game. This also applies if the low lvl toon attacks the pvp'd toon. The chicken buff would also grant immunity to the "ganker" so that the lower levels could not harrass him.
c) Something Blizzard should fix ASAP IMO.

Dude, I have no clue on how my ideals would lead to being a PvE server... I do roll on a PvE server most times however do play PvP from time to time. My suggestions are regarding the question to this thread.

Ganking is an issue - let the record show. What will Blizz do about it? Let's them decide.:idea:

then i suggest you re-read what you've typed. first off, ganking is not a problem. read post #166, the post right after yours. they tell you that you WILL get ganked, have fun. any form of giving someone immunity is essentially turning them PvE, on a PvP server. with that one minute, they can do their buffs, run to safety, etc. this is not the essence of pvp. also, in your sense of the word, "fair", you seem to overlook something very important. a lower level cannot fight a higher level in any "fair" basis. you need to re-evaluate your definition of fair. its totally fair if a high level kills a lower level in one or two hits. totally fair. the higher level is expected to hit harder. the lower level has less health, less armor, weaker spells. in the real world if you get hit by a guy who works out, plays football, and wrestles, for example, its totally FAIR that he will kick your butt if you're nothing more than a couch potato. learn what fair is. its not putting everyone in an equal playing field. its rewarding everyone with the same rewards for the things that they have done.

and quite honestly, if you think warhammer's chicken policy is great, then play warhammer. and if you think that its unfair that higher level players can gank you, then play PvE. no one is stopping you. blizzard has made most servers PvE. i dont know what else to say... its not a matter of, learning to play, but more a matter of knowing what you're getting yourself into, rolling PvP with both eyes open, as the saying goes.

i know i've come across a little crass. sorry for that. but im sick of people complaining about this and saying blizz please fix. there's nothing to fix. there is no problem really. the only problem is in the people complaining.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

first off, ganking is not a problem.

Just to nitpick, he said "issue" not "problem". As in, it is something that is hotly contested quite a lot, with people on both sides of the fence. As such, it is an issue. Now, it also is acceptable according to the rules for PvP servers, but that doesn't make it any less an issue.

[elsegundo]

Just to nitpick, he said "issue" not "problem". As in, it is something that is hotly contested quite a lot, with people on both sides of the fence. As such, it is an issue. Now, it also is acceptable according to the rules for PvP servers, but that doesn't make it any less an issue.

i see. got it. but he did give a list of possible "solutions". when do we need solutions? when there's a problem. thats how i see it.

in any case, this "issue" of ganking should be dealt with in-game. the gankers abide by the rules of the game as much as those who do not gank. i find that people take real-world mentality into a game that's not meant to really reflect the real world. in the real world we're able to call the cops if someone mugs us (can that be the real world equivalent of ganking?), but in WoW, we only have our faction to rely on. There's no GM that will come to our aid when we're ganked, no fairness police to say that the ganker's spells are too powerful and then nerf him, and no game mechanic that will keep us from being ganked if we go off into contested territory. I think those who roll pvp should know what they're getting into before they decide to join, or at least know that its a possibility when they do try it out to see if it suits them.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

i see. got it. but he did give a list of possible "solutions". when do we need solutions? when there's a problem. thats how i see it.

in any case, this "issue" of ganking should be dealt with in-game. the gankers abide by the rules of the game as much as those who do not gank. i find that people take real-world mentality into a game that's not meant to really reflect the real world. in the real world we're able to call the cops if someone mugs us (can that be the real world equivalent of ganking?), but in WoW, we only have our faction to rely on. There's no GM that will come to our aid when we're ganked, no fairness police to say that the ganker's spells are too powerful and then nerf him, and no game mechanic that will keep us from being ganked if we go off into contested territory. I think those who roll pvp should know what they're getting into before they decide to join.

And the circle continues.

Issue: Ganking.

Pro: There is no problem.
Con: There is a problem, here's what we don't like about it.
Pro: There is no problem, suck it up, or don't play on PvP servers.
Con: What if there was another kind of server that addressed our concerns?
Pro: There is no problem, your concerns are a joke.
Con: Look, I am certain there is a problem, this is why. And, the solution I think would possibly be this.
Pro: There is no problem.

et. al.

From what I'm seeing there has mostly been a complete and utter shut-out by a good number of the "pro-ganking" people in this thread that anyone or anything "anti-ganking" is not only wrong, but there is no issue, and those who think there is an issue are being childish. It is a very, very... stubborn and a bit condescending attitude that has been taken from what I've seen.

The funny thing is... it almost seems like the pro-gankers are set on an extreme defensive position through this whole thing, almost like they are backed in a corner, as if the very notion that someone may not like ganking but likes PvP is a dire threat to how they play. There has been such a knee-jerk backlash against those who have raised any concern about ganking, it is incredible.

What anyone, personally, may think is or isn't the problem with ganking honestly does not change the validity of another person's opinion on the subject. Blatantly shooting down the other side really isn't an effective mode of discussion on a topic like this, once again, it just gets people riled up. And, the discussion will continue to circle, repeat, and go on ad nauseum.

Is it not possible for people to express whether or not they like or dislike ganking, whether or not they think it is a problem, without being jumped on by the other side?

If you think there is nothing wrong with ganking, great! If you think there isn't a problem great! I'd say express your opinion, on it, but maybe try not to be so.... overly-critical of opposition. So this topic can possibly come to an eventual close without the circle repeating yet again...

[Janfader]

i see. got it. but he did give a list of possible "solutions". when do we need solutions? when there's a problem. thats how i see it.

in any case, this "issue" of ganking should be dealt with in-game. the gankers abide by the rules of the game as much as those who do not gank. i find that people take real-world mentality into a game that's not meant to really reflect the real world. in the real world we're able to call the cops if someone mugs us (can that be the real world equivalent of ganking?), but in WoW, we only have our faction to rely on. There's no GM that will come to our aid when we're ganked, no fairness police to say that the ganker's spells are too powerful and then nerf him, and no game mechanic that will keep us from being ganked if we go off into contested territory. I think those who roll pvp should know what they're getting into before they decide to join, or at least know that its a possibility when they do try it out to see if it suits them.

I provided solutions as in the thread's main question "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking?"

I have said yes and provided some feedback only because there are more people voted against it - as per vote poll.

Be assured the games that support internet-interaction are being asked to do something about internet bullying. Ganking would fall heavy on internet bullying. :thumbsup:

And what's fair regarding a lvl 70 vs anything lvl 60 or less??? Yeah ok.

[rgirty]

I'm not pro ganking.

I don't think there is a problem.

Can you wrap your head around that?

*braces for a multi quote post"

[odinsnephew]

I'm not pro ganking.

I don't think there is a problem.

Can you wrap your head around that?

*braces for a multi quote post"

Agreed. In one line too ;)

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

I'm not pro ganking.

I don't think there is a problem.

Can you wrap your head around that?

*braces for a multi quote post"

yep, completely understandable. Multi-quotes from me happen when someone crams a number of points into a single response, and I feel each point needs to be answered independent of the other. And, I personally hate having one large response to one large quote where the response is addressing something I have to scroll up to figure out what it is responding/addressing.

[NOYB]

PvP elicits pretty strong feelings. Even in a completely "fair" fight, people are bound to get upset. If I'm stealthing around an area and spy someone even a few levels higher than me, I can frequently kill them without them being able to do much about it. To me, that's a gank.

Ganking is an important part of world PvP. When you start creating rules of engagement you remove a large part of the thrill. Some of the most memorable experiences involve reversing a gank or hunting down the ganker and taking revenge. Hell, I've reveled in being the target of several epiced out players seeking revenge on me for ganking their guild member. It's thrilling to sap their buddy and own the snot out of the guy they came to help, then vanish without a trace.

Have there been times that I was decimated by someone 20+ levels higher? Sure. I don't mind it at all though. There's almost always people willing to help, and if not I dust myself off and get over it. Every dog gets his day.

World PvP is fine as it is. Changing it around only dilutes the experience.

[elsegundo]

I provided solutions as in the thread's main question "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking?"

I have said yes and provided some feedback only because there are more people voted against it - as per vote poll.

Be assured the games that support internet-interaction are being asked to do something about internet bullying. Ganking would fall heavy on internet bullying. :thumbsup:

And what's fair regarding a lvl 70 vs anything lvl 60 or less??? Yeah ok.

i see. i know what you're saying. but even though your solutions may help in the ganking department, it destroys the whole meaning of PvP. in short, you're trying to solve a small problem by destroying the whole system.

now i know what you're thinking about when you call for fairness. but that is simply not fairness. to me, what you're suggesting of doing would cause a lot of unfairness to happen. i think what you're looking for is equality, and not fairness. there is certainly the ability to be equal, but it doesnt mean that two people, when they meet in combat, are equal, nor should they be. as much as bliz tries to make every class balanced, not all classes are, on an equal level, with equial gear, etc.

the best game to play if you want everyone to have a fair start would be... streetfighter. in that game, everyone starts when the fight officially begins, everyone has the same amount of health, and everyone's damage is dependent on his moves and combos. there is no handicap unless you set one. this is not that type of game, and to call ganking unfair, though, true to a certain degree, would only lessen the game experience for those who actually do enjoy the ability to gank and be ganked.


And the circle continues.

Issue: Ganking.

Pro: There is no problem.
Con: There is a problem, here's what we don't like about it.
Pro: There is no problem, suck it up, or don't play on PvP servers.
Con: What if there was another kind of server that addressed our concerns?
Pro: There is no problem, your concerns are a joke.
Con: Look, I am certain there is a problem, this is why. And, the solution I think would possibly be this.
Pro: There is no problem.

et. al.

From what I'm seeing there has mostly been a complete and utter shut-out by a good number of the "pro-ganking" people in this thread that anyone or anything "anti-ganking" is not only wrong, but there is no issue, and those who think there is an issue are being childish. It is a very, very... stubborn and a bit condescending attitude that has been taken from what I've seen.

The funny thing is... it almost seems like the pro-gankers are set on an extreme defensive position through this whole thing, almost like they are backed in a corner, as if the very notion that someone may not like ganking but likes PvP is a dire threat to how they play. There has been such a knee-jerk backlash against those who have raised any concern about ganking, it is incredible.

What anyone, personally, may think is or isn't the problem with ganking honestly does not change the validity of another person's opinion on the subject. Blatantly shooting down the other side really isn't an effective mode of discussion on a topic like this, once again, it just gets people riled up. And, the discussion will continue to circle, repeat, and go on ad nauseum.

Is it not possible for people to express whether or not they like or dislike ganking, whether or not they think it is a problem, without being jumped on by the other side?

If you think there is nothing wrong with ganking, great! If you think there isn't a problem great! I'd say express your opinion, on it, but maybe try not to be so.... overly-critical of opposition. So this topic can possibly come to an eventual close without the circle repeating yet again...

thats not entirely true. i have seen those who are pro-ganking and have added comments. as im trying to do, which is determine what exactly is "fair" and maybe we can go on from there. but its great to have two sides, each with their own reasons, and each with their own responses to the other's defenses. i dont mind getting riled up too much as it helps me think about why i hold the point of view that i hold, and i do try to attack the arguements and not the arguing party. hopefully that keeps things civil.

what can i say as a pro-ganker? i hate getting ganked but i like to gank. i think its a great part of the game and should not be changed. i do, depending on my mood, avoid battles with the enemy sometimes. i do get frustrated sometimes, so i know how some people feel about getting ganked. its just that i know that i can complain about it and all that, but i do realize that all's fair in my pvp realm. and if, to an enemy, im red, i very well could be dead.... and vice versa.

anyway, i've said it before but i think that ganking is a issue that needs to be addressed by the respective factions. i rolled alliance for a reason, and if a horde is ganking a lowbie somewhere, and i can do something about it, i go and help. eventually the ganker leaves. or, if i cant help and i keep dying while i try to help out, i'll either call for help or just give up and let them have this fight. we move on. its not a whole lot lost really. anyway i dont know where im trying to get with this. but well now you see what im trying to convey.

/use coffee

[rgirty]

PvP elicits pretty strong feelings. Even in a completely "fair" fight, people are bound to get upset. If I'm stealthing around an area and spy someone even a few levels higher than me, I can frequently kill them without them being able to do much about it. To me, that's a gank.

Ganking is an important part of world PvP. When you start creating rules of engagement you remove a large part of the thrill. Some of the most memorable experiences involve reversing a gank or hunting down the ganker and taking revenge. Hell, I've reveled in being the target of several epiced out players seeking revenge on me for ganking their guild member. It's thrilling to sap their buddy and own the snot out of the guy they came to help, then vanish without a trace.

Have there been times that I was decimated by someone 20+ levels higher? Sure. I don't mind it at all though. There's almost always people willing to help, and if not I dust myself off and get over it. Every dog gets his day.

World PvP is fine as it is. Changing it around only dilutes the experience.

LOL the experience of rogue who rarely if ever gets ganked while doing all the ganking is a disturbingly ridiculous thing to read.

If everyone were given a racial, a spell or ability that would allow 100% stealth removal you would hear no end of rogue QQ when they were the ones actually getting ganked.

This post is epic.

[Aerath]

LOL the experience of rogue who rarely if ever gets ganked while doing all the ganking is a disturbingly ridiculous thing to read.

If everyone were given a racial, a spell or ability that would allow 100% stealth removal you would hear no end of rogue QQ when they were the ones actually getting ganked.

This post is epic.

Open combat log.

Get out of dodge whenever the words: '[name] gains stealth' or '[name] gains cold blood' appear.

I've reversed the tables on a wanna-be ganker plenty of times simply by keeping my eyes open.

Humans have Anti-stealth.
Warlocks have Anti-stealth.
Mages have Anti-stealth.
Druids *have* stealth.
Warriors have some mediocre anti-stealth and aren't afraid of rogues anyway.
Hunters have anti-stealth.

In fact, I think the only classes which have a problem with rogues ... would be priests and shamans.

2 out of 9. Geez.

[det]

Well, here is a guy who twinks himself, plays a class with aspects that suits him and kills people above his level. It is not like rogues are totally out of controll imba, with humans having perception or stealth detection goggles available.

So why shoot him down..all he says that even in the case where he kills higher levels, sombody will yell "unfair"..as ppl yell "unfair" when warlocks use HS in a duel....etc. That post is just another facette in the debate how hard it would be to agree on terms that make fights "fair"

[pianodwarf]

Hhmmmm this annoys and strangely interests me equally. Why on a PvE server is someone trying to flag another player? I dont really understand the concept. Why are they not on a PvP server? I can only presume that is what they call "griefing".

Yes, griefing is exactly what it is. A basic fact of life is that lots of people are jerks. A slightly more obscure fact of modern-day life is that, in the face of online anonymity, many people consider themselves free to be jerks -- or, if they're already jerks, to be even bigger jerks than they were to begin with. You're shocked by the revelation, I'm sure. :wink:

If you've ever played any online game in which (unlike WoW) opposing factions can communicate with each other, you'll see the effect of online anonymity on jerkdom much more clearly. While I admit I'm sometimes annoyed at not being able to speak to members of the opposing faction (like the time I wandered into Undercity with my night elf by mistake as a noob and couldn't explain what I was doing there to try to avoid getting killed), I admit I can understand Blizzard's decision.

The "lots of people are jerks" thing is the reason that restrictions on PvP, regardless of how they're implemented, are unlikely to accomplish what anti-gankers are seeking. As you rightly point out, even on Normal servers, griefers find ways to kill non-PvP flagged players. If they can do it on Normal servers, they can certainly do it on PvP servers. (To paraphrase Robert Frost, "Oh, jerkdom will out. It cannot be contained.") There are a lot of people out there who are both smart and juvenile, and technological restrictions won't coerce them into behaving like adults. If anything, they'll regard them as a challenge and pride themselves on figuring out how to behave like jerks anyway. The first person to figure out that snake-trap exploit is probably still laughing his head off every day.

I'm still fairly new to WoW and haven't tried a PvP server yet. Based on my past experience with a number of different online games, I doubt that I ever will. My own take on PvP is basically the same as my take on chess, or, indeed, games in general: players should feel a responsibility to be sportsmanlike. However, while sportsmanship is usually the prevailing attitude in chess (note: "usually", not "always"!), it seems to be the exception in PvP, whether it's WoW, online Halo, or even the good old-fashioned text-based MUD. But at least on WoW Normal servers, you still have dueling and arenas. Combat there is sportsmanlike, even though there are almost certainly those who wish it could be otherwise. I'd be willing to bet ten million dollars that there are griefers out there who have tried long and hard to think of ways to grief the arenas.