Gear the only thing that matters?

[GameyHarp]

I have been playing wow for about 2.5 years. The first raiding guild I got into was because of a pretty long and intensive interview in vent. I haven't done much BC end-game content and was interested in doing so. I applied for a few guilds and took a good 20-30 minutes to fill out the application for each guild. The only responses that I got from all the guilds was a one line reply saying basically I didn't have the gear necessary. I can understand how the guild might not want people that aren't willing to work for your gear but, most of the guilds I app'd too were only in grull's and I have 3 pieces of T4 and the rest are heroic and pvp gear. Does anyone else notice that the only thing that seems to matter these days when applying to a guild is your armory link?

[Dakiter]

That and experience.

There was a recent personality conflict with the leadership of our guild and they decided to go their separate ways. This broke up the guild. Right now there are 5 of us that are very close and we are all guildless. We are raiders and the number of options we bring is insane.

Level 70 T3/T4 Resto Druid x 2
Level 70 T3/T4 DPS Warrior
Level 70 PvP/T3 MM Hunter
Level 70 Kara-Epicced BM/Surv Hunter

Amongst these 5 are also the following:

Level 70 T3 Shadow Priest
Level 70 D3 Prot Warrior
Level 70 Kara Epicced Druid Tank
Shaman/ProtWar/Mage all on their way to 70.

We are lucky because we bring so much to the table. If you are a new player trying to get into an end game guild, ask them if you can raid with them a little and if they are disappointed they will pass on you.

Also do instances and heroics. The people you meet will notice you are unguilded and you will probably have a few guilds to choose from.

[mesonm]

Does anyone else notice that the only thing that seems to matter these days when applying to a guild is your armory link?

Actually, I submit that it also depends on your class, and maybe even your spec.

A healing pally can get into guilds that are in content that is a bit above them....A tank might also, if there are decent healers in the guild.

Unfortunately, DPS classes overlap much more, and it is often hard to accommodate lower geared [newer] folks.

I do find it curious that a guild in Gruul's seems to be picky....But, it may just be that they have enough of your class, and would only take you if you were at the top end.....

Don't let it get you down...there are plenty of guilds to get into....You'll find one.

Try to match your raiding experience with theirs, and you'll find a match.

[Dakiter]

On a side not to my suggestion to meet people doing instances and heroics, this is alos a great way to meet people that you may or may not enjoy guilding with. I dont care if they are the greatest guild in the world. If you dont enjoy the folks then its just no fun.

[Ardani]

Gear's not the only thing that matters (to a good guild; to a bad one, it may well be), but it is the first hurdle to be crossed, and it can't be ignored. There is a limit to how flexible any guild can be on their members' gear, and what flexibility exists will generally be granted to people that the guild higher-ups know, where their attitude and aptitude have been gauged over time. If you're a relative stranger to them who is applying over their website, then you can probably expect to be held to the strictest standards. PvP gear can give the wrong impression, even if it's serviceable (although I do think that stuff like the Vindicator's healing necklace can be quite lovely in PvE).

If gear was cited as the only reason for your rejection, and the guild is approachable, I would suggest you ask if they will reconsider you should you work to improve your gear from Karazhan and badges. If the answer's yes, then making the changes and re-applying can give a positive impression of your determination to improve. Also, if you've been playing for as long as you have then it probably goes without saying, but don't apply to more than one guild at a time -- many of them really don't like that. :smiley:

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I wouldn't join any guild through application. You just know those guys are going to be all snooty.

[frimley]

Umm, how would you apply then? And how do you suggest guilds recruit?

[Dhoum]

I wouldn't join any guild through application. You just know those guys are going to be all snooty.

I would think very carefully before joining a guild that didn't require some form of application ... and that's at any level of the game.

[Twoflower]

I wouldn't join any guild through application. You just know those guys are going to be all snooty.

haaaahaha

try getting into a serious raiding guild whibout a application.

but maybe you are right. all guilds that take the game serious may look "snooty" to you.

I would think very carefully before joining a guild that didn't require some form of application ... and that's at any level of the game.

exactly.

i wouldnt wann ajoin a guild which just takes anyone, no matter how they play, what reputation they have, what ingame goals they have etc...

[moopy]

I wouldn't join any guild through application. You just know those guys are going to be all snooty.

KEK!

The application process is a good first-level idiot filter. It tests that people can pay attention, and follow instructions. It's also a crude test of the applicant's command of your guild's chosen language. This is vital, as people need to be able to communicate well under time pressure.

High-end guilds need to be "all snooty" because one total idiot in the raid can be the difference between a fast clear and a whole night wiping. The application process is a good opportunity for the applicant to set out what their aims are, and sell themselves somewhat. After all, you're going to spend a good few hours playing with these people, it's wise to try and find a good match in terms of experience, attitude and ability.

It's very true that a proper endgame guild may seen "all snooty" to someone with a few days /played at 70, no enhants on their mostly green/blue gear and a strange spec. It''s equally true that those running those guilds are looking for people who can keep up and not ruin the fun of everyone in the raid with poor play- due to lack of skill, gear or anything else. It's wise to apply to guilds around your level of experience and gear, as refusal often offends.

To the OP:

Gear is really important. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, there are hard limits on your abilities, be you tank (HP/avoidance/aggro generation), DPS or healing. A lot of bosses have enrage timers, and so the raid needs to be able to put out enough damage, or it's a wipe. A tank with 12k HP isn't going to be any good tanking Illidan, a healer with 500 +heal isn't going to keep a tank group alive on the big trash waves in Hyjal, et cetera.

Good gear doesn't make a good player. Good gear enables a skilled player to actually do well. A skilled player without the gear is just going to be beating their heads against the wall. A skilled player in good gear can move mountains. Actually itemising sensibly to get truly killer performance is a skill in itself sometimes, too.

You can't tell how good a player is when they're applying x-realm. You read the app, look at the gear, and get them in for a trial to see for yourselves how good they are. They might suck, they might not. However- if they are massively undergeared, you know right from the start that they can't keep the pace in your raids. That simple.

[Valas Azuviir]

Umm, how would you apply then? And how do you suggest guilds recruit?

I suspect he's thinking of the situation where you get an invite from a member of a guild, because of mutual PUG experience. If the cooperation is good and things go smooth in the runs, because of the teamwork displayed, well, why not invite such a person to your guild.

Sometimes you click with folks straight away, other times you don't and it'll take more time.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking. When you see something in the guild recruitment channel just send a whisper. Or if you know a friend who likes his guild join that way.

If you get an idiot in the guild kick him. If he's wearing greens tell him "Hey you're wearing greens, get some better armor and you can come" No need to boot that guy. Unless you're all "snooty".

[mesonm]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking. When you see something in the guild recruitment channel just send a whisper. Or if you know a friend who likes his guild join that way.

If you get an idiot in the guild kick him. If he's wearing greens tell him "Hey you're wearing greens, get some better armor and you can come" No need to boot that guy. Unless you're all "snooty".

So, you advocate that the guild recruitment channel is a better place, because (I guess) no snooty guilds go there? ;)

Or, maybe guilds use that channel because they don't have the resources for a guild website [and maybe guild bank, tabard]....but they are ready to start kara, for sure...)

And yes, I jest....

[Super Sneaky Steve]

No, you can still get a snooty guild through the channel, but if you have to apply and meet their standards then you're pretty much garanteed a snooty guild.

Maybe you'll be subserviant and bow down to the snooters to get a good spot in a raid, but I won't. They can kiss my butt!

[theshard]

So, you advocate that the guild recruitment channel is a better place, because (I guess) no snooty guilds go there? ;)

Or, maybe guilds use that channel because they don't have the resources for a guild website [and maybe guild bank, tabard]....but they are ready to start kara, for sure...)

And yes, I jest....

If you don't have a guild bank, you are not ready to start Kara.

[mesonm]

If you don't have a guild bank, you are not ready to start Kara.

Yes, that was the 'jest' part.

No, you can still get a snooty guild through the channel, but if you have to apply and meet their standards then you're pretty much garanteed a snooty guild.


Actually, I view the application process as being two-way....They have to meet my standards also....

Merely being a guild that clears SSC is a small part of it....Having good people with decent chatter is also a part.

[GameyHarp]

Just seems that now adays in WoW long vent conversations with a GM or an officer when applying to a guild have been replaced with an armory link. Makes me a sadpanda :*(.

[moopy]

Just seems that now adays in WoW long vent conversations with a GM or an officer when applying to a guild have been replaced with an armory link. Makes me a sadpanda :*(.

Yeah. Paid transfers are a blessing and a curse. You end up recruiting people before you can ever play with them. At that point, the only vetting that you can do is to read their app, look at their armory page, and chat with them. No more trials by fire, as used to be the case. On the other hand, you get to join guilds with the sort of progress that suits your level- even if your current server lacks good options.

However, it all comes down to gear- it's the only thing you can be 100% sure of, that people can't lie about.If the gear isn't close to good enough, they will need carrying for some time- and if you're looking for someone to contribute solidly at your play level, that's a problem. It's not the only factor that makes someone worth having- it's just the only one that you can trust 100% before they join. For all you know, they could have bought their toon just a month earlier, of course. This will only become obvious after a few raids, sadly.

All guilds have their aims- where they are, where they want to be. Generally, raiding guilds are looking for people to help with these, not people who need a piggyback for a long time before they're any use. Them's the vagaries.

Of course, a good guild will read your app, look at your armory, and then want to chat with you- if they don't, be suspicious.

[frimley]

Maybe you'll be subserviant and bow down to the snooters to get a good spot in a raid, but I won't. They can kiss my butt!

I'm guessing you don't want to see the end game content.

[Twoflower]

No, you can still get a snooty guild through the channel, but if you have to apply and meet their standards then you're pretty much garanteed a snooty guild.

Maybe you'll be subserviant and bow down to the snooters to get a good spot in a raid, but I won't. They can kiss my butt!

i realy dont understand your attitude. there are 10 000 players per server. Just because a guild does not want ANYBODY and is selective, they become snooty ?

lemme tell you about guild management. If you want your guild to be solid, you need to have clear goals. Pve, PvP, roleplaying, casual chatting, some even want erotic roleplaying. Take anything you like. But you need to have goals. If you invite everyone that comes along, you will have people mixed up. Alot of the people will leave again because the guild does not go in the same direction as the players.

The typical example is people gearing up and then leaving for "better" guilds who are further in raid progression.

This causes alot of disapointment for guild leaders. If you build up a good player pool, gear them up, work on relationshihps etc only to see 5 people leaving again as soon as they have the items the can get, you get pretty frustrated.

All in all, both sides need to get to know each other. the guild needs to know if the player is the right person, and the player needs to know if the guild has the same ideas. This can only be done trough a serious application, followed by some serious talk on teamspeak, playing together for some time, and finaly a trial membership.

Anything else is just betting with bad chances.

Now if you want to be independent and your own boss and all that yadda yadda, enjoy it. But it does not make everyone snotty just because they care about a ingame community.

[Ash Housewares]

to be fair we are snooty

but... yea... this childish act isn't gonna get you into an endgame raiding guild, if thats what makes us snooty in your eyes, then so be it


I'll tell you how I got into my raiding guild (which was working on TK & SSC at the time)

basically waited til they were recruiting my class, whispered the GM, talked for a sec, said I had my tailoring epics and kara loot, that I would be online at raid time, and I was in


so it helps if they need you, if you're a rogue and theyve got 4 or 5 rogues, and your gear isnt any better than what theyve got, then theyll pass, could be as simple as that

[moopy]

No, you can still get a snooty guild through the channel, but if you have to apply and meet their standards then you're pretty much garanteed a snooty guild.

Maybe you'll be subserviant and bow down to the snooters to get a good spot in a raid, but I won't. They can kiss my butt!

Hmm, a guild is "snooty" if they want you to actually answer a few questions about yourself as a player, and where you'd fit in a raid, and if asked to do so, you'll throw a little strop and invite them to kiss your butt?

Oddly, getting an inkling of why any even moderately well-run guild that cares about the quality of its raids doesn't want you :-)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Oddly, getting an inkling of why any even moderately well-run guild that cares about the quality of its raids doesn't want you :-)

Doesn't want me? You don't know anything about me. Or do you watch me play through my window at night? :grin: Creepy!

[Janfader]

I had the same problem finding a good guild (lots of people, raiding etc..) with my main lock. It took me a lot to get into the guild.

1. I was told no - same reason as you.
2. I constantly ran instances with two/three of the members of the guild I wanted in with showing them my skill etc... all being a nice guy and all.
3. After a month and getting some gear I was invited as only (back up when needed). I ran Kara 5 times since then - no drops at all as I was the new guy - which was fine by me.

The guild now has 4 raiding locks including myself, however the other three have been with the guild much longer than myself and actually play twice the time I do and have great gear. I see why I'm the forth man in, and don't really care to be honest as I run dailies everyday with that guild and hope to get more experience in Kara/Gruul.

GL

[Xmcdaniel]

I have been playing wow for about 2.5 years. The first raiding guild I got into was because of a pretty long and intensive interview in vent. I haven't done much BC end-game content and was interested in doing so. I applied for a few guilds and took a good 20-30 minutes to fill out the application for each guild. The only responses that I got from all the guilds was a one line reply saying basically I didn't have the gear necessary. I can understand how the guild might not want people that aren't willing to work for your gear but, most of the guilds I app'd too were only in grull's and I have 3 pieces of T4 and the rest are heroic and pvp gear. Does anyone else notice that the only thing that seems to matter these days when applying to a guild is your armory link?

I've found that just like anything in life, it's "who you know" that will get you places. Leverage your relationships. Heck, my guild is 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and we take in-game friends and guildie alts in quest blues in there and on our Kara farm nights.

On the contrary, if we don't know the guy applying from adam and he's applying to a guild at our level of progression in greens and quest blues, it screams to us "hay guise can I join and u can carry me to epix" type of person...someone who doesn't want to actually work for their gear. And quite honestly, probably someone who won't be very committed to progression.

It's fairly easy to gear up in WoW if you know the right people. If you don't know anyone, theres a lot of solo stuff that you can do (i.e. pvp, rep, crafting, badge reward) to gear yourself up and make yourself attractive to a raiding guild.

[moopy]

It's fairly easy to gear up in WoW if you know the right people. If you don't know anyone, theres a lot of solo stuff that you can do (i.e. pvp, rep, crafting, badge reward) to gear yourself up and make yourself attractive to a raiding guild.

Given that quite a few bits of badge gear are now t5 quality, this is more true than ever (add some s2 or weapons, and you're styling, unless you're a tank). Having decent, well-enchanted, sensibly-gemmed gear, knowing your stuff, and not being a prat are flying starts.

[Xmcdaniel]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking. When you see something in the guild recruitment channel just send a whisper. Or if you know a friend who likes his guild join that way.

If you get an idiot in the guild kick him. If he's wearing greens tell him "Hey you're wearing greens, get some better armor and you can come" No need to boot that guy. Unless you're all "snooty".

LOL my guild requires and application and we are completely laid back. I think you have the wrong idea about what an application really is. If we didn't have an application process and just took anyone, the guild would fall apart in a matter or weeks, I can promise you that.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

LOL my guild requires and application and we are completely laid back. I think you have the wrong idea about what an application really is. If we didn't have an application process and just took anyone, the guild would fall apart in a matter or weeks, I can promise you that.

I'm not saying a guild has to take everyone, just that I won't submit myself to an application process. When I want to join a guild I give them my list of demands. I tell them I want first string and I want a decent title. If they don't want me then that's fine. It's ok if they ask me what kinda gear I have.

What I wouldn't stand for is what Janfader puts up with. He's basically the guild weenie(a B word would be more accurate), because he allows it, or doesn't care, however you want to look at it. I demand respect and I get it, because I take nothing less.

So again I offer my rump to the snooters!

If my guild isn't the best guild ever then that's fine. I'll turn it into the best guild ever with leadership, skill and friendship.

[Meds tbh]

This is near the exact opposite of other games I've played - there they take people on knowledge, skill and personality - gear is absolutely the last concern as they help the good people get better geared.

Weird how things differ across games.

[Ash Housewares]

When I want to join a guild I give them my list of demands.

do you do this often?

[Dakiter]

List of demands? o.O

I have one thing that I ask when being considered, can I raid with you guys once? That is more for me to see how they do things then for me to show off. I know what I have to do and I will do it, but I have have seen some very high level guilds run some very poor raids.

[mesonm]

I'll turn it into the best guild ever with leadership, skill and friendship.

Provide examples where you've done that....I'd be interested in seeing your results.

Of course, given your statement, you've joined only one guild in the game, made them the best, and you are now likely the GM....True?

Enjoy!

[Ash Housewares]

This is near the exact opposite of other games I've played - there they take people on knowledge, skill and personality - gear is absolutely the last concern as they help the good people get better geared.

Weird how things differ across games.


well, theres a minimum requirement that gear can help to answer

if you come along will you survive?
do you know how to properly gear your character?
are you commited enough to have geared your character reasonably well?
are you going to contribute or just coast along and loot&scoot?

if looking at gear eliminates these potential negatives, then the next issue is need, perhaps they don't need someone of your class, you'd be stuck behind four better geared players and never get to contribute, best not to accept you and let you find a better place then

the gear is just the introduction, once past that we get to see what kind of skill and personality you have

[Twoflower]

Provide examples where you've done that....I'd be interested in seeing your results.

Of course, given your statement, you've joined only one guild in the game, made them the best, and you are now likely the GM....True?

Enjoy!



yes he is the gm of nihilum now...

[Super Sneaky Steve]

yes he is the gm of nihilum now...

My guild will be better than them, but it takes time. A work in progress.

It's still better to hold your head up high and be respected than to be the guild gimp.

[Xmcdaniel]

I'm not saying a guild has to take everyone, just that I won't submit myself to an application process. When I want to join a guild I give them my list of demands. I tell them I want first string and I want a decent title. If they don't want me then that's fine. It's ok if they ask me what kinda gear I have.

What I wouldn't stand for is what Janfader puts up with. He's basically the guild weenie(a B word would be more accurate), because he allows it, or doesn't care, however you want to look at it. I demand respect and I get it, because I take nothing less.

So again I offer my rump to the snooters!

If my guild isn't the best guild ever then that's fine. I'll turn it into the best guild ever with leadership, skill and friendship.

Your attitude sounds more snooty than any guild with an application process. I can tell you that you wouldn't get a sniff at a raid with any respectable guild with your approach.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Your attitude sounds more snooty than any guild with an application process. I can tell you that you wouldn't get a sniff at a raid with any respectable guild with your approach.


I wouldn't? I've raided a lot, more than I'd like actually. Just because I'm confident doesn't mean I don't respect others as well.

When I was raiding (now pvping) i showed up on time, did my job, worked as a team and was always polite and respectful. I was not a subserviant benchwarmer.

How does standing up for myself in a respectful way make me snooty? :smiley:

[mesonm]

My guild will be better than them, but it takes time. A work in progress.

It's still better to hold your head up high and be respected than to be the guild gimp.

I see you've ignored my request for facts....maybe implying that your statement was a bit broad....

Cool

:thumbsup:

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I see you've ignored my request for facts....maybe implying that your statement was a bit broad....


What facts do you want? I don't have the best guild ever, yet. When I do though, you'll be the first to know ok? :wink:

Sky is the limit. I can never be to braud. Even the best guilds out there now start somewhere. I'll get it done and have a ball doing it.

Would you like to join me?

[rgirty]

What facts do you want? I don't have the best guild ever, yet. When I do though, you'll be the first to know ok? :wink:

Sky is the limit. I can never be to braud. Even the best guilds out there now start somewhere. I'll get it done and have a ball doing it.

Would you like to join me?

Your desire to be the greatest guild in the world is great.

Claiming that your guild will be better than a professional one is pretty adventurous to say the least.

Thats like someone getting off their lazyboy and saying they are going to be > jordan ever was at basketball.

I appreciate the ambition, but the people you aim to best have a fair bit of a lead on you..and they get paid to play.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

What makes a guild better than another one though? Gear, progress in the end game? Having arena teams in it which are ranked in double digits? Having BG preforms that totally dominate every BG?

What about one where people treat others with respect and dignity, inside and outside of the guild? What about civility, consideration, politeness, and just generally trying to act like decent human beings? Honestly, a guild which does that far outshines any of the others I listed above in my book.

Progress, rankings in arenas, all of that.... is like fame in my book, it is fleeting, and short-lived. There is no lasting impact or value. But building up a set of friends who all interact well with each other, help each other, and are there fore each other... that is something lasting, and has what I see is true value.

[rgirty]

What makes a guild better than another one though? Gear, progress in the end game? Having arena teams in it which are ranked in double digits? Having BG preforms that totally dominate every BG?

What about one where people treat others with respect and dignity, inside and outside of the guild? What about civility, consideration, politeness, and just generally trying to act like decent human beings? Honestly, a guild which does that far outshines any of the others I listed above in my book.

Progress, rankings in arenas, all of that.... is like fame in my book, it is fleeting, and short-lived. There is no lasting impact or value. But building up a set of friends who all interact well with each other, help each other, and are there fore each other... that is something lasting, and has what I see is true value.

World firsts. Thats what makes the greatest guilds in the world.

Achievement wise.

If your talking about sitting around the fireplace in elwynn forest, thats a different story.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

World firsts. Thats what makes the greatest guilds in the world.

Achievement wise.

If your talking about sitting around the fireplace in elwynn forest, thats a different story.

I am talking about what has the longest lasting value? Some one-time event that is fleeting and only lasts until someone else beats you out, or the quality of the people within the guild? What holds more respect -- that you can brag you have some world first, or that people know your guild's membership to be made up of high-quality individuals who treat others with consideration and help those who really need it?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how "achievement" does, well, anything to make a guild be anything I'd care about. I mean, if guild X is the first to take down Kil'jaden in the sunwell on my server.... what does that matter when WotLK's raid instances are what people are doing? What does it say about the individuals in that guild, and how they treat others? Not a thing. All it says is they pushed to get something done first. Whether they are jerks or the nicest group you've ever met, there is no way to make such an assessment based on the world first. Are they selfish or selfless, are they polite or rude? And once the next big thing comes out, what does that world first really amount to when it is all said and done.... nothing, as far as I can tell. Who cares who was the first to open the gates of Ahn'Quiraj any more? Or who downed Ragnaros first? Or who cares which guild was the first to finish Stratholme or Dire Maul? Those are forgotten, only the current instances matter, only the current progression. Everything else quickly fades like wilted flowers.

Yet if a guild has a solid reputation for helping others (and I don't mean constantly running lowbies through instances or getting people geared up), being friendly, considerate, polite, respectful.... Those guilds become remembered despite the new content. Those are the guilds I will respect. Whether or not they are at a certain progression, I could care less. How they treat other people, that is what matters to me. And all it takes is just one bad apple to spoil the bunch. It is harder to build up a good reputation than it is to destroy it.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with "sitting around the fireplace in elwynn forest". This has everything to do with honesty, integrity, and respect.

[Xmcdaniel]

I wouldn't? I've raided a lot, more than I'd like actually. Just because I'm confident doesn't mean I don't respect others as well.

When I was raiding (now pvping) i showed up on time, did my job, worked as a team and was always polite and respectful. I was not a subserviant benchwarmer.

How does standing up for myself in a respectful way make me snooty? :smiley:

"I'm not saying a guild has to take everyone, just that I won't submit myself to an application process. When I want to join a guild I give them my list of demands. I tell them I want first string and I want a decent title. If they don't want me then that's fine. It's ok if they ask me what kinda gear I have."

^^

You're approach to finding a guild is just as pretentious as a snooty guilds approach to finding players, it's just reversed.

I don't care if you are decked out in T6, I can tell you with complete certainty that you would not get into my guild if you refused to apply, and instead, came with a list of your "demands". Those type of players are poisonous to guilds in our experience.

[irogue]

I agree with many said that guild should focus on the candidate’s personality and the skills or knowledge of that character he/she plays.

A good player knows to gear up his/her characters on his/her own - crafting professions, pvp honors, heroic instances...

A good player knows how to play well with his/her character.

A good player helps guildies in need and will never ask for help in guild chat unless he/she has helped others.

A good player contributes crafted skills (rare enchanting, JC cuts...) or crafted items (buff food, potions, oil...).

A good player shows respects to the guild rules, mates and other players.

Mostly, a gear focused guild attracts geared focused ppl. I have seen many gear focused ppl won't go to Kara to help new comers (except when they need the badges) or they move on to a better and more advanced guild sooner or later.

[NORMLLikeMe]

goin back on the first few posts that argued perhaps the armory is your application to the guild

Lookin at someones gear can tell more than you think, simple socket or enchant choices can really tell you alot about someone. seeing someones talent tree has a ton of hidden information as well.

Needing to gear up may only be an excuse the GMs are giving you.

just my 2 cents, if somethin in your sockets or talents look off a little that will make ppl 2nd guess even the most geared

[Justinledwards]

Problem with SSS, it's all trash-talk because no one knows what he has raided, where he has raided, where he plans to take his guild, how he is doing it. Thus I call troll (inflammatory statements with no basis designed to derail the thread).

Back on topic - I didn't make people apply to my guild, i would have a chat to them. I'd also armory them. But that's for basics, I've rejected people all purpled out and I've taken people in blues. If the hunter is wearing +spelldmg gear, they ain't getting in.

However once the guild grew, and I could not take care of everything - I switched to applications. Not everybody has the same style or process, or nous. So applications changed to an officer council.

I think Moopy's first post covered it and most of those thereafter as well.

[dwarfenhelm]

not only would i expect a guild to interview me if i wanted to join then i would and have interviewed the guild officers to see if the guild is what i really want to join. i dont like the idea of guild hopping so its important to have the right guild for you.

[caldepen]

Maybe poor gear is not what some are looking at directly but rather that if you have poor gear it reflects on the rest of your character. If you haven't taken the time to gear properly then you might not be attentive enough with the rest of your game! It is a 'Key Indicator'.

[GameyHarp]

Maybe poor gear is not what some are looking at directly but rather that if you have poor gear it reflects on the rest of your character. If you haven't taken the time to gear properly then you might not be attentive enough with the rest of your game! It is a 'Key Indicator'.

I understand that completely and the fact that if your spec is a little..."off" that could be a clear indicator. How ever, as i said before at the time I applied to these guilds they were not doing T5 content yet and I was pvp spec'd in 3 pieces of T4 and the rest heroic epics and gladiators at the time. I can understand how if they are full on rogues to a point but, if you expect someone to fill out an application honestly and take time and effort to do so, I would expect a little more from a guild than a one line post saying "get more gear," which has happened too much. Maybe this should be a sign to me? Maybe these guilds aren't what i'm looking for? Maybe i'll just keep digging around for a guild that has long extensive interviews and requires you to run a bunch of instances with members to see where you stand. Wish me luck i guess...

[rgirty]

I am talking about what has the longest lasting value? Some one-time event that is fleeting and only lasts until someone else beats you out, or the quality of the people within the guild? What holds more respect -- that you can brag you have some world first, or that people know your guild's membership to be made up of high-quality individuals who treat others with consideration and help those who really need it?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how "achievement" does, well, anything to make a guild be anything I'd care about. I mean, if guild X is the first to take down Kil'jaden in the sunwell on my server.... what does that matter when WotLK's raid instances are what people are doing? What does it say about the individuals in that guild, and how they treat others? Not a thing. All it says is they pushed to get something done first. Whether they are jerks or the nicest group you've ever met, there is no way to make such an assessment based on the world first. Are they selfish or selfless, are they polite or rude? And once the next big thing comes out, what does that world first really amount to when it is all said and done.... nothing, as far as I can tell. Who cares who was the first to open the gates of Ahn'Quiraj any more? Or who downed Ragnaros first? Or who cares which guild was the first to finish Stratholme or Dire Maul? Those are forgotten, only the current instances matter, only the current progression. Everything else quickly fades like wilted flowers.

Yet if a guild has a solid reputation for helping others (and I don't mean constantly running lowbies through instances or getting people geared up), being friendly, considerate, polite, respectful.... Those guilds become remembered despite the new content. Those are the guilds I will respect. Whether or not they are at a certain progression, I could care less. How they treat other people, that is what matters to me. And all it takes is just one bad apple to spoil the bunch. It is harder to build up a good reputation than it is to destroy it.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with "sitting around the fireplace in elwynn forest". This has everything to do with honesty, integrity, and respect.

This world does not operate or respect how people treat each other. The nicest does not = the best.

World first = something that can never be taken away, guilds that have multiple worlds firsts are thought to be the best. Server firsts are good as well, but near the clout of a world first.

I know you care nothing about raiding and are burnt on it, but this is reality.

When the first guild downed illidan, it was on every gaming news site. I've never seen a story about someone doing something "nice" in game make more than one wow news site. Because people don't care.

Simon Cowell isn't up there on the panel of American Idol because he's nice, its because he's the best talent scout in the world.

Donald Trump isn't a billionaire because he's nice, the same goes for Bill Gates(see the billion dollar fines MS has been handed in EU)

Best = success and by no means does success = nice.

Ask 100 wow players who the best guild in the world is, most of them will have the same answer and it is based upon success.

[GameyHarp]

This world does not operate or respect how people treat each other. The nicest does not = the best.

World first = something that can never be taken away, guilds that have multiple worlds firsts are thought to be the best. Server firsts are good as well, but near the clout of a world first.

I know you care nothing about raiding and are burnt on it, but this is reality.

When the first guild downed illidan, it was on every gaming news site. I've never seen a story about someone doing something "nice" in game make more than one wow news site. Because people don't care.

Simon Cowell isn't up there on the panel of American Idol because he's nice, its because he's the best talent scout in the world.

Donald Trump isn't a billionaire because he's nice, the same goes for Bill Gates(see the billion dollar fines MS has been handed in EU)

Best = success and by no means does success = nice.

Ask 100 wow players who the best guild in the world is, most of them will have the same answer and it is based upon success.

He wasn't trying to stay that the world works like that. He was more or less stating his own opinion which i agree with 110%. I would much rather be in a guild with friends and such that go through multiple MMO's than be in a world first guild.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

This world does not operate or respect how people treat each other. The nicest does not = the best.

World first = something that can never be taken away, guilds that have multiple worlds firsts are thought to be the best. Server firsts are good as well, but near the clout of a world first.

I know you care nothing about raiding and are burnt on it, but this is reality.

When the first guild downed illidan, it was on every gaming news site. I've never seen a story about someone doing something "nice" in game make more than one wow news site. Because people don't care.

Simon Cowell isn't up there on the panel of American Idol because he's nice, its because he's the best talent scout in the world.

Donald Trump isn't a billionaire because he's nice, the same goes for Bill Gates(see the billion dollar fines MS has been handed in EU)

Best = success and by no means does success = nice.

Ask 100 wow players who the best guild in the world is, most of them will have the same answer and it is based upon success.

How does what you wrote even relate to what I wrote?

[clevins]

I understand that completely and the fact that if your spec is a little..."off" that could be a clear indicator. How ever, as i said before at the time I applied to these guilds they were not doing T5 content yet and I was pvp spec'd in 3 pieces of T4 and the rest heroic epics and gladiators at the time. .
I'm betting it was the pvp gear. Aside from the weapons, pvp gear is not as good as most blues for raiding. There are a couple of exceptions (the S2 and S3 helm) but several pieces of PvP gear and a PvP specs says 'raiding noob' to some people. The T4 helps, but the gloves and shoulders are terribly easy to get. The helm requires a Kara clear but... meh.

If you're applying to a raid guild logout in the best raiding gear you have, make sure it's gemmed and enchanted for raiding and ideally have yourself specced for raiding. If you're pvp specced, tell them in your app that you're currently specced that way because you're pvping while looking around but would normally spec X for raiding.

[rgirty]

He wasn't trying to stay that the world works like that. He was more or less stating his own opinion which i agree with 110%. I would much rather be in a guild with friends and such that go through multiple MMO's than be in a world first guild.

Yes, thats true. Some people would rather sit around the fireplace of the inn there in elwynn forest than down bosses.

I know this because every time I happen to be there for the faire there are people lounging around there taking it easy.

To each their own.

Best = your own opinion, but universally the best is thought of as a guild who holds worlds first records.

[clevins]

rgirty,

then your guild sucks. As do all but a small number of guilds. Virtually none of us are every going to be in a guild with a world first, so who cares? And don't post when you're in a ****ty mood, ok? The difference isn't between sitting in Elwynn or being serious. And plenty of serious guilds are full of jerkoffs while plenty of others, just as good, are full of cool people.

Talk to us about the min/max approach when you finally get past the T5 content you've been stuck on for months.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Yes, thats true. Some people would rather sit around the fireplace of the inn there in elwynn forest than down bosses.

I think that is non sequitur. You are making an all-or-nothng position to boot, marginalizing anyone who has a position not the same as yours. I don't, and my guild doesn't "sit around the fireplace of the inn there in elwynn forest" -- but at the same time, we don't lower our standards just to get warm bodies just to fill a raid group.

I know this because every time I happen to be there for the faire there are people lounging around there taking it easy.

So that means everyone who isn't raiding is doing that? Because that is your implication, that if people aren't pushing to "down bosses", they are standing around doing nothing. How is that not bigoted?

Best = your own opinion, but universally the best is thought of as a guild who holds worlds first records.

That is far from "universally". It is your opinion, but that doesn't make it everyone's opinion.

I say again, who remembers which guild downed Ragnaros first? Who remembers which guild downed Drakkisath first? Those "first records" are easily forgotten over time, as new "firsts" arise. There is no merit, no depth, no lasting impression on them. They only retain any value as long as nothing better comes around. Once something new comes around, the old is forgotten and discarded for the new.

[NOYB]

I'll admit my guild sucks, but that's because we take a relaxed approach. They're all very nice people though (we refer to each other as family), and I'd trade that over being the best any day of the week.

Show me a guild completing world firsts that isn't predominantly Type A personalities, and I'll show you an invisible pink unicorn.

[Justinledwards]

It's all pretty irrelevant. Just find the guild that suits you. The one that suits me, I had to start. Casual raiding, no more than 3 nights a week, with 'A-game' for those raids. Moderately successful before I gave it away, (4-5 kara full clears a week, world boss, 4/6 ZA, lurker)

This may mean you spend a month each in a few different guilds. Like real life, finding a job etc, you don't always land the one you want first time

[TPMdm]

...
Maybe i'll just keep digging around for a guild that has long extensive interviews and requires you to run a bunch of instances with members to see where you stand. Wish me luck i guess...

That or you could give the guild a list of your demands and tell them to fit your playstyle (respectfully of course). :rolleyes:

[GameyHarp]

That or you could give the guild a list of your demands and tell them to fit your playstyle (respectfully of course). :rolleyes:

heh, I don't think i'll try that :P.

[frimley]

Ask 100 wow players who the best guild in the world is, most of them will have the same answer and it is based upon success.

Actually, I think most of them would reply "my guild" (the guild they're currently in - not my, as in Frimley's :tongue: ). If you asked them which is the most advanced in the world, then you'll get your uniform answer.

[dexterhall]

Game progress and friendly people do not rule out each other. To OP: Your gear was good enough for that kind of progress, maybe they just had better to pick from. The original question was: Does only gear matter? Ofc not, but it does matter a lot for raid recruitment. There are raid guilds, and then there are guilds who raid. There's a difference.

[moopy]

That or you could give the guild a list of your demands and tell them to fit your playstyle (respectfully of course). :rolleyes:

Joking aside, there's a time and a place for that- when a guild recruits something that they don't know how to take advantage of- but it's more about helping them to get results. You approach it by saying "hey, humour me, let's just try it this way so you can see what I have been banging on about". If they like the results, then good. If it doesn't work, maybe they know better.

However, you have to recognise that if a guild has been doing well, the people running it know their stuff. My guild usually starts the t6 content on a thursday, and has it clear on friday (or sometimes an overspill onto sunday for a bit of cleaning up, depending on how well-focussed everyone is). I'd suspect that anyone who would argue too hard against their way of doing things needs to just be a little more respectful- as there's really not a lot to be gained by shaking things up as they currently stand; you can't actually improve much on the current performance other than marginal speed increases. People joining such a guild would need to meet the gear and play standards to be able to keep to the pace, and make life easy for those running it, as you don't want to spoil something that's already working so efficiently.

As dexterhall says, a progress and a friendly guild aren't antithetical. Indeed, some sort of esprit de corps actually helps keep people motivated and help them actually enjoy what they're doing. This logically also means that people recruited need to be good company, as well as meeting the other requirements, so people like "Super Sneaky Steve" with a "they can kiss my ass" attitude would be the last thing that most people would want.

[caldepen]

I have been lucky the guild I was in, I was invited by a RL friend and they are all seem very nice. Thats how I would measure a guild. You better like them...

[sparklebunny]

I think an application helps but in no means do I think the armory is the end-all-be-all. Gear is definitely a consideration when my guild looks at applicants. However another issue to consider is your reputations. That is something that we consider as the Marks of Illidari can be used for flasks that are cheaper to obtain then through alchemy but you need to be exalted with CE, Sha'tar and Aldor/Scryer. Another thing reputations show is a dedication to your character. It shows that you are working to make your toon the best it can be.

However the one thing that a lot of times makes or breaks it for us is who do they know in the guild? If they know several people that speaks more about them then someone who is applying blind (of course who they know can be good or bad). We might also be more lenient on the entry requirements to those candidates if they are close to what we require.

It's kind of ironic that it is very similar to a job interview and as noted a lot of times it's not what you know but who you know.

[moopy]

I think an application helps but in no means do I think the armory is the end-all-be-all. Gear is definitely a consideration when my guild looks at applicants. However another issue to consider is your reputations. That is something that we consider as the Marks of Illidari can be used for flasks that are cheaper to obtain then through alchemy but you need to be exalted with CE, Sha'tar and Aldor/Scryer. Another thing reputations show is a dedication to your character. It shows that you are working to make your toon the best it can be.

Yep, very good point. A lot of guilds do indeed as this, along with attunements for heroics and raids (soon to be defunct in 2.4, I suppose). If someone's applying to join a ZZZOMGSUPERPWNRAIDGUILD, it would seem strange if they don't have some exalteds under their belt without a good reason.


However the one thing that a lot of times makes or breaks it for us is who do they know in the guild? If they know several people that speaks more about them then someone who is applying blind (of course who they know can be good or bad). We might also be more lenient on the entry requirements to those candidates if they are close to what we require.

It's kind of ironic that it is very similar to a job interview and as noted a lot of times it's not what you know but who you know.

Again, a good point, but this doesn't scale. At the highest level of playing, there's a finite pool of really good players per server, and if a high-end guild needs to recruit a well-geared and experienced player of a much sought-after class, often they have to advertise for x-realm players (world of raids and such). This is a pain, as you can't rely on reputation with other players, nor can you take them for a spin before they join. This is annoying, as someone has to commit themselves to a transfer without knowing if the new guild will make them crazy or not. At this point, the "candidate" is often as likely to interview the GM as the other way round, due to the potential hassle if it goes wrong :-)

[sparklebunny]

I agree with you - my guild is at the SSC/TK stage so we still get some people who are well geared but are transferring from other guilds. I know a couple of my friends from another guild who could not make our raid times went and made level 1 toons on other servers and searched for guilds that way. I could completely understand being in MH/BT level instancing and you having to "blind recruit" and I am sure that can be as stressful for the guild as it is for the recruit.

I think even though the attunements will not be necessary the fact that they are still completed can say something....especially since even though you will not need to be attuned for Mount Hyjal come 2.4 you will still need to complete the quest in order to obtain the reputation ring from there.

[moopy]

I could completely understand being in MH/BT level instancing and you having to "blind recruit" and I am sure that can be as stressful for the guild as it is for the recruit.


It is, believe me- seen it from both ends. I guess I should count my blessings, a BT-attuned and reasonably-geared resto shaman is a relatively easy sell, compared to (say) a rogue.


I think even though the attunements will not be necessary the fact that they are still completed can say something....especially since even though you will not need to be attuned for Mount Hyjal come 2.4 you will still need to complete the quest in order to obtain the reputation ring from there.

Yep, totally agree with you. I think my guild's going to require recruits after 2.4 to have "hand of A'dal", other than in exceptional circumstances- simply because it shows a certain minimum level of experience.

[clevins]

Interesting back and forth... I'm considering transferring my very well geared/repped rogue simply because of the server time. Most of the SSC/TK level guilds on my server start raiding at 7 server... which is 5pm server for me. Which won't work if I make the switch from freelance work to fulltime work. The one guild that sounds like a fit on my server both timewise and from a RL/WoW balance perspective, I know no one in... and they're on Kael whereas I've only seen the Lurker and VR fights, so the mismatch might be too much. sigh...

[moopy]

clevins,

That's not a huge gap- same tier even. It would be a different matter if they were working on Bloodboil and Reliquary of Souls. I know what you mean about time though, I don't miss having to more or less run from the station to not miss raid start. That was no good at all.

You could try weaseling into some 5 man stuff with some of their members, getting to know them- after doing a little research to see if they could fit another rogue in, of course. If they already have so many that three are sitting out every raid, it might be another matter.

[clevins]

I should talk to them... last I looked they were recruiting rogues....but my shadow priest is whispering to me too... sigh...

[moopy]

Measure twice, cut once.. but good luck either way :)