Is Alterac Valley Easier for a Certain Faction?

[Maticus]

It's well known that Blizzard are making the following changes to the Alterac Valley Battleground in patch 2.4 (http://www.worldofwar.net/wiki/Patch_2.4_PTR):


Captain Balinda Stonehearth Stonehearth can no longer be interrupted, silenced, or have her spells slowed. In addition, her water elemental cannot be banished, and does increased damage.
Vanndar Stormpike and Captain Balinda Stonehearth have had their health totals reduced to match the health totals of Drek’Thar and Captain Galvangar...
Warmasters/marshals in Alterac Valley now increase each other’s maximum health and damage by 25%. This is a stacking effect.
Horde players will now start the battle closer to Drek’Thar and Frostwolf Keep.


AV has seen many changes over the past few months in a effort to make it more balanced, and these are Blizzard's latest attempts to even things out. Players obviously feel there are problems with this Battleground in terms of fairness, but which faction gets more of an easy ride?

On my server, Alliance usually win most AV games, but lose most games in the other Battlegrounds. To me, this hints that perhaps the Alliance have it somehow easier in AV. However, lately the tide has turned and the Horde have been winning most of the games, which seems to cancel out my earlier theory, maybe AV just suited Alliance style of play better, and now the Horde have adapted?

One thing is for certain though, the Horde always reach Stone Hearth Bunker and Balinda well before the Alliance reach their counterparts, surely this gives the Horde a head start, in a game where speed is a necessity...

What are your thoughts on this, does AV favor the Horde or Alliance, or does it purely depend on the players?

[Magikhat]

I voted for alliance. Horde can cap towers first but alliance can D up easier on the narrow pass before the bridge as well as have npc's fighting for them near aid station.

[mesonm]

This is another topic that has been beat to death, and one that will be affected by blizz moving horde's opening tunnel closer to the horde home base, among other things.

<sigh>

IMO, you might want to consider posting it again three months after the changes go live....heh

[Maticus]

I think now is a good time to discuss this, as the new changes are being tried out on the PTR as we speak. It's a perfect place to talk about the effects the changes have on the game - just IMHO though ^ ^

[rgirty]

I like these threads, they get people to post and talk good work maticus.

This is something people talk about alot, a poll to thumbnail the general thought is great.

[Icefrost]

I voted "favors the horde", for the simple fact that they get to the first alliance bunkers in the same amount of time the alliance gets to those SAME bunkers - their own ones. Only exception is when you get a paladin with crusader on your group, but those usually rush towards Galv anyway.

And while the horde rarely uses the lower path to get to Stormpike Graveyard the easy way, the mentioned narrow pass gets defended by the alliance even more rarely. The best I've seen is 5 folks standing around at the GY flag, but the real point of defense is usually on the bridge, allowing the horde to cap the gy and push hard, which ultimately results in the line breaking and losing the aid station soon after.

I would also label it a minor disadvantage to the alliance that the aid station flag sits right at the gates of the fort, while the horde counterpart is a fair distance to the side and gets taken back much more often, even if it is a stupid mistake to let that happen.

[mesonm]

I like these threads, they get people to post and talk


But, you didn't post and talk, sir!

What are your thoughts on this?

[xDarkDrifterx]

I think horde have it easier, and that should be helped per the changes they are making above. Horde can walk well into Bal's room without aggroing - if Alliance even comes around the corner we get aggro. The starting point for horde is the best change IMO short of Bal's elemental being able to be banished . . .I mean WTF banish her elemental . . . come on, So with the starting points even and the horde not being able to be set into position and D'ing up before we even get to SHGY will be a wonderful thing. Now the alliance will have to realize the importance of Defense, the importance of retaking towers, and also the Mines (especially in a game where time is of the essence - not making your NPC's harder to kill is IMO idiotic) - the horde always have 1-2 of the mines with the Alliance not even bothering.

[PlayThemAll]

At one time I would have said Horde but now I think it's pretty balanced.

Different battlegroups seem to be weighted one way or another but I don't see any one side dominating every Battlegroup.

[rgirty]

But, you didn't post and talk, sir!

What are your thoughts on this?

I just get flamed when I do. So I don't.

As someone who ascended multiple ranks many months before x-server was ever introduced and totals 30,000+hk's on multiple char of multiple classes I'm fairly sure I know the answer at least in my battlegroup.

People will come up with all kinds of wild speculation but the answer to me is painfully obvious.

[TPMdm]

short Frostwolf fence = 50 dkp minus for the horde
easily defense able bridge = 50 dkp plus for alliance

Closest horde gy (besides relief hut) attackable from 360 degrees = 50 dkp minus for the horde
closest alliance gy (besides aid station) attackble from a few positions = 50 dkp plus for alliance

horde starting cave = 50 dkp plus for horde

horde archers not being able to hit incomming alliance at Frostwolf towers = 50 dkp minus for horde

Advantage alliance.

[mesonm]

... I'm fairly sure I know the answer at least in my battlegroup.

People will come up with all kinds of wild speculation but the answer to me is painfully obvious.


and that answer is.....

[SirBazturd]

Prior to the reinforcement limit, Allies won about 75% in my battlegroup. The waiting time for AV was about 10 minutes, if not shorter.

Since the changes, the horde wins almost all of the AVs, so allies don't even sign up. Now wait time is around 1.5-2 hours.


A change I have notice is that horde defends their bottlenecks and the allies don't.

[Twoflower]

to be honest, i see maticus opening thread after thread about topics that are so beaten to death that i dont give a rats ass any more. This is hardly worth a poll, certainly not worth news and most certainly not worth being posted by a mod. This should be posted by some 1 post bloodelf druid who never comes back to the forum again...

[det]

In my battlegroup, Alliance wins 4 out of 5 games.

Either we suck in AV (we win most other BGS) or it favors Allliance. One particulat complaint is that they can more easier bypass our gurads in our base while we can't in their....also the bridge to Stormpike seems more a bottleneck then our entry gate...

[Aerath]

to be honest, i see maticus opening thread after thread about topics that are so beaten to death that i dont give a rats ass any more. This is hardly worth a poll, certainly not worth news and most certainly not worth being posted by a mod. This should be posted by some 1 post bloodelf druid who never comes back to the forum again...

I hate to agree on such a harsh post, but it's true =/
Every single word of it.

//edit2: Truth be told, this sort of crap is making me feel like I'm browsing the official forums... "Whah! PvE-ers get PvP gear !" "Whah, PvP-ers get epix!" "Whah twinks !" "Whah AV faction favouritism!" "Whah Ganking !"


//edit: Det - personal experience means bugger all in regards to which side AV favours. The side it favours often times does not play the way they are favoured in exchange for a better honour/hour ratio.

And while we're on the topic: It's been stated before, even on these exact same forums if you care to believe it, that horde side are currently favoured and that the biggest issue with that one will be changed in 2.4 when they move the entrance. 2.4 looks fairly balanced, but I suppose only time will tell.

[Maticus]

I hate to agree on such a harsh post, but it's true =/
Every single word of it.

//edit2: Truth be told, this sort of crap is making me feel like I'm browsing the official forums... "Whah! PvE-ers get PvP gear !" "Whah, PvP-ers get epix!" "Whah twinks !" "Whah AV faction favouritism!" "Whah Ganking !"


I'd like to point out that the posts I believe you referred to "Should You Have to do PvP to Get PvP Gear? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410448)" and "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410699)" total over 300 comments and 300 votes between them, so obviously there is still a lot of discussion to be had over those particular topics.

Some of us have not all been around from the start, and discussed every morsel of the game. Some people here are relatively new, and these polls/threads give them and everyone else the opportunity to thrash out a topic which is prime for discussion. Is that not the purpose of a forum after all?

If you personally do not wish to read about a topic, don't click the thread, simple as that :smiley:

Now, less flaming and more discussing. So far it appears the majority of people think AV is well balanced. What's more interesting is that more people think AV favors Horde than Alliance - I'd really like to know why!

[Aerath]

I'd like to point out that the posts I believe you referred to "Should You Have to do PvP to Get PvP Gear? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410448)" and "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410699)" total over 300 comments and 300 votes between them, so obviously there is still a lot of discussion to be had over those particular topics.

Some of us have not all been around from the start, and discussed every morsel of the game. Some people here are relatively new, and these polls/threads give them and everyone else the opportunity to thrash out a topic which is prime for discussion. Is that not the purpose of a forum after all?

If you personally do not wish to read about a topic, don't click the thread, simple as that :smiley:

Now, less flaming and more discussing. So far it appears the majority of people think AV is well balanced. What's more interesting is that more people think AV favors Horde than Alliance - I'd really like to know why!

If played properly (ie, not a bum rush zerg fest), Horde will win 95-100% of the games, with a 500-600 to 62-0 lead.

If that isn't a clue, I don't know what is.

Fact is, Horde reach SH and Balinda before Alliance does. This gives them a big enough head start if they chose to play properly that they will never lose. In fact, this is exactly what happened on a few of the more competitive battlegrounds, leading to complete shutouts. Alliance stopped queueing, Horde went up to 2 hours queue times. Bum Rush Zerg tactics favours alliance, but everyone gets out with 300ish honour in 15 minutes with next to no queue times. Overall it's a better honour/hour ratio, which is why personal experience like "But alliance always wins on my server" is essentially meaningless. If you get 1.5k-2k honour/hour you're not gonna complain and whine and change your playing. The scorched earth tactic leads to 600 honour every 2.5 hours. Both do not include HKs. You tell me which is favourable on a long time view and thus why people with the famed BRZ-strat didn't feel inclined to change their ways.

Now can we lay this thread to rest ? It's all there in the PVP/BG section of these forums already. Which you moderate, and thus should know about.

And 300 posts might seem like a lot, but it's content that counts. It's not the sound of mewling sheep bleeting, but the wool you spin.

[Maticus]

Now can we lay this thread to rest ? It's all there in the PVP/BG section of these forums already. Which you moderate, and thus should know about.

And 300 posts might seem like a lot, but it's content that counts. It's not the sound of mewling sheep bleeting, but the wool you spin.

Indeed I do know about the discussions in that forum, and I gathered from there that this was a good choice of topic for a poll. Now stop Baa-ing on about this, the thread will die when people want to stop talking about it, which may be today or next week.

As far as advantages go, despite the recent hiccup on my battlegroup, Alliance win AV 90% of the time. A horde friend of mine complains that the bunkers at DB are much better placed than the FW ones in terms of attacking incoming invaders. There is also the fact that the DB flag is in range of the towers/Bunkers, whereas the Horde relief hut flag isn't, allowing the flag to be capped while all the tower defenders are still there.

Also, the only way into DB is over the bridge, which is under heavy fire from the Bunkers and can be effectively defended. The only plus for Horde I know of is that the Aid station flag is right outside the entrance to Vand, where horde gather before the fight, making it almost impossible for Alliance to cap the flag back un-noticed. The relief hut flag in FW is some distance away from the entrance to Drek, and I've known it happen on more than 1 occasion that a horde rogue sneak in and recap the flag while 20 or so Alliance stand outside Drek waiting to start.

[Aerath]

Indeed I do know about the discussions in that forum, and I gathered from there that this was a good choice of topic for a poll. Now stop Baa-ing on about this, the thread will die when people want to stop talking about it, which may be today or next week.

As far as advantages go, despite the recent hiccup on my battlegroup, Alliance win AV 90% of the time. A horde friend of mine complains that the bunkers at DB are much better placed than the FW ones in terms of attacking incoming invaders. There is also the fact that the DB flag is in range of the towers/Bunkers, whereas the Horde relief hut flag isn't, allowing the flag to be capped while all the tower defenders are still there.

Also, the only way into DB is over the bridge, which is under heavy fire from the Bunkers and can be effectively defended. The only plus for Horde I know of is that the Aid station flag is right outside the entrance to Vand, where horde gather before the fight, making it almost impossible for Alliance to cap the flag back un-noticed. The relief hut flag in FW is some distance away from the entrance to Drek, and I've known it happen on more than 1 occasion that a horde rogue sneak in and recap the flag while 20 or so Alliance stand outside Drek waiting to start.

I'm aware of the base being far more open on Horde side. Fact is, in the current reinforcements state of the battle, the end game does not make as big a difference as the begin. Get a 100 Reinforcements lead and you can just grind down the rest.

The base is the reason Alliance did so much better in a previous incarnation of AV.

But I said, most people haven't a clue and just spot what's going on in their BG. PUGs aren't exactly well known for their sheer brilliance and AV is one massive PUG.

[Maticus]

But I said, most people haven't a clue and just spot what's going on in their BG. PUGs aren't exactly well known for their sheer brilliance and AV is one massive PUG.
Hmm, I wonder if this means after patch 2.4 with the ability to join AV as a premade, Horde will pwn Alliance again on my battlegroup.

Note to self: Make the most of the easy honor before 2.4 comes in >.<

[Twoflower]

Hmm, I wonder if this means after patch 2.4 with the ability to join AV as a premade, Horde will pwn Alliance again on my battlegroup.

Note to self: Make the most of the easy honor before 2.4 comes in >.<

i fear it will mean exactly that ^^

it will be like i always said... if you join any BG whibout a premade, you are in for frustration and a amazing 100 honor per hour. Till 2.4, AV was the exception to that rule.

[jschild]

If played properly (ie, not a bum rush zerg fest), Horde will win 95-100% of the games, with a 500-600 to 62-0 lead.

If that isn't a clue, I don't know what is.

Fact is, Horde reach SH and Balinda before Alliance does. This gives them a big enough head start if they chose to play properly that they will never lose. In fact, this is exactly what happened on a few of the more competitive battlegrounds, leading to complete shutouts. Alliance stopped queueing, Horde went up to 2 hours queue times. Bum Rush Zerg tactics favours alliance, but everyone gets out with 300ish honour in 15 minutes with next to no queue times. Overall it's a better honour/hour ratio, which is why personal experience like "But alliance always wins on my server" is essentially meaningless. If you get 1.5k-2k honour/hour you're not gonna complain and whine and change your playing. The scorched earth tactic leads to 600 honour every 2.5 hours. Both do not include HKs. You tell me which is favourable on a long time view and thus why people with the famed BRZ-strat didn't feel inclined to change their ways.

Now can we lay this thread to rest ? It's all there in the PVP/BG section of these forums already. Which you moderate, and thus should know about.

And 300 posts might seem like a lot, but it's content that counts. It's not the sound of mewling sheep bleeting, but the wool you spin.

Except for the Battlegroups where Alliance wins almsot every game.

It is very funny how on some servers Horde always win AV, others Alliance always win.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I don't understand why it's so different on other servers since people go in the BG across servers.

[Tr1cK]

Easier to defend base + trickier GY nearest base = Alliance advantage.

It takes nowhere near as many people to defend the narrow gap at the bridge compared to the zerg coming through the gate and over the walls of the horde base.

[Shellar]

When a lone Horde player will be able to ride into Dun Baldar while ignoring all NPCs, cap both bunkers singlehandedly, and then grab the aid station as well... then, yes, I will consider AV to be balanced.

[Icefrost]

When a lone Horde player will be able to ride into Dun Baldar while ignoring all NPCs, cap both bunkers singlehandedly, and then grab the aid station as well... then, yes, I will consider AV to be balanced.

In that case, it is more than balanced in my battlegroup...

Or was this sarcasm? Hard to tell at 12 o' clock in the night...

[Leviathonlx]

A fourth option is needed of No, the instance is unbalanced for both factions. Though after 2.4 I feel Blizzard gave Alliance the advantage since they did not fix any of the Horde problems such as the Frostwolf towers or how Alliance can jump over the Horde bases walls while getting rid of several of the Hordes advantages.

While I have primarily played on Alliance since AV came out I have played it on Horde more than enough also and see how both sides have their advantages and disadvantages. For my alliance charactars I usually

For the Alliance it was pretty wrong that Balinda was so weak (fixed in 2.4) and was slightly unfair that horde started so much closer to the first Alliance tower (also fixed in 2.4) but Alliance do have the advantage of the long bridge before the Aid Station and their towers do reach the Aid Station. Alliance have some pretty good choke points that could be used effectively but would prolong the instance quite a bit such as the chokepoint near Stonehearth and how most Horde are not smart enough to take the high road to Stormpike.

For horde the disadvantages I see are how the towers do not reach the Relief Hut and how there is a big building before the towers that completely negates the archers but at least it is a decent chokepoint but unfortunately once Alliance zerg it and get to the Relief Hut its pretty much over. Also unlike the Alliance base its easy for the alliance to jump over the walls to get into the base which is a bit unfair when the Alliance base you can only enter via a bridge. The few advantages horde have are being removed in 2.4 though except for the small chokepoint by Iceblood.

The battleground just needs many changes on both sides.

[Findariel]

Allience has a lot more choke points and their towers have incredible range and can't be capped by a single player.
And if horde reaches the ally towers or Balinda a little sooner .. does it really matter? Balinda (or Galv) doesn't even need to be killed to win the match.

The point is that you need to destroy all towers (except 1) to be able to win the game. While horde may progress a little faster in the beginning, alliance has it far easier in the end as their base's defenses are a lot better and they have the bridge (covered by ranged attacks from the towers) as ultimate chokepoint.

What I see a lot in my BG is that horde caps SH and IW a little faster and kills Balinda a few seconds earlier too, but is then stopped near SP GY and the bridge while alliance happily moves on to the horde base and eventually wins.
The only way horde usually wins is to defend and cap IW and SH but protecting TP and/or IB towers to have a points advantage and then gain the remaining 280 points or so by making kills.

Also the fact that for horde capping a GY (SH) is counterproductive because allies will then spawn in SP, which is a choke point, is at least a bit strange in a match where capping towers and GYs should be a sign of progression.

Lastly it's indeed perculiar that horde usually wins in all BGs except AV.

[Tr1cK]

Lastly it's indeed perculiar that horde usually wins in all BGs except AV.

QFT!!

On my battlegroup Ruin, which is composed of launch day servers in the US, Horde wins most on any BG except AV. Some of these margins of victory are small, but we can still pull it off. The other day we won an AB by 10 points, a fight until the end. We normally dominate EOTS and AB. Allies tend to do well in WSG and win about 50-50. AV is a whole different story, we might win 1 out of 10.

[Findariel]

The best thing Blizz could do in the next patch is just reversing the starting points and see what faction wins then .. :p

[Tr1cK]

The best thing Blizz could do in the next patch is just reversing the starting points and see what faction wins then .. :p

This is the best idea yet!

[Baboon]

At my battlegroup Horde is often earlier at Van but Alliance kills Drek faster. I think Alliance is just a bit better at killing the endboss (or play in raidstyle). Horde wins all other BG's mostly because they are more fanatic PvP'ers it seems.

[Findariel]

Well if 47% of the voters think it's biased towards alliance it should mean something.
Really too bad they don't have polls on the official forum!!

[Cerberus]

Also the fact that for horde capping a GY (SH) is counterproductive because allies will then spawn in SP, which is a choke point, is at least a bit strange in a match where capping towers and GYs should be a sign of progression.

SH is fine, SF is the one you need to avoid.

And yes, this is topic kinda died when a lead designer at Blizzcon said something along the lines of "It's possible for horde to win AV, it's just easier for everyone if they don't". And then there's points like

Lastly it's indeed perculiar that horde usually wins in all BGs except AV.

and what Shellar said about capping everything in the horde camp alone. I've done this with my lock in greens.

[irogue]

Well if 47% of the voters think it's biased towards alliance it should mean something.
Really too bad they don't have polls on the official forum!!

1. There are only 61 votes within the 10 million players. It only indicated more horde players voted on this forum.

2. This topic has been beat to death so lots of ppl won't bother to read, vote or post.

3. If my 2 70s lost more than 150 AVs in a row with 0 - 62 honor points while hordies walked away with 450 - 700 honor, there are problems somewhere.

You (horde) should be happy if you are in the battlegroups that alliance still wins some. The AV queue time for horde is about 2 hours in the battlegroups that horde always wins.

:smiley:

[Findariel]

1. There are only 61 votes within the 10 million players. It only indicated more horde players voted on this forum.
You don't know that!
Of course 9 options would have been better:
1. Horde advantage (I'm horde)
2. Horde advantage (I'm alliance)
3. Horde advantage (I play both sides)
and so on ...

2. This topic has been beat to death so lots of ppl won't bother to read, vote or post.
This doesn't mean it isn't representative. If an equal number of horde/alliance won't bother to read, vote or post it doesn't matter.
Although more voters would havebeen better, I still regret the fact that the "official" forum doesn't allow polls!!

3. If my 2 70s lost more than 150 AVs in a row with 0 - 62 honor points while hordies walked away with 450 - 700 honor, there are problems somewhere.
You (horde) should be happy if you are in the battlegroups that alliance still wins some. The AV queue time for horde is about 2 hours in the battlegroups that horde always wins.
That's true, but well, IF AV was alliance biased that still wouldn't be fair, regardless the fact that one side or other wins more often.

:ponder:

[Leviathonlx]

1. There are only 61 votes within the 10 million players. It only indicated more horde players voted on this forum.


Or it indicates players see a problem with AV?

[Aerath]

Or it indicates players see a problem with AV?

There's a minor mistake with that reasoning. It does not mean that the people who voted are actually right.

[Pongle]

I would also label it a minor disadvantage to the alliance that the aid station flag sits right at the gates of the fort, while the horde counterpart is a fair distance to the side and gets taken back much more often, even if it is a stupid mistake to let that happen.

Having the aid station flag in range of your archers is somehow a disadvantage?...

[Dakiter]

This is the one BG that I find gives the alliance an advantage. Their base it far easier to defend (bridge from hell) and they are able to get to the horde target much easier.

The best idea I have heard is let them switch sides and see who starts winning more.

[TPMdm]

lol, as long as we are going to debate the accuracy of a fan forum poll lets not forget some people might have gotten confused by the thread title and poll responses, or maybe there are a few "hanging chads" that are throwing off the results :wink:

[cyradis2003]

Someone mentioned reversing the starting points and seeing what happens ...

I think that would be pretty cool, have all the BG's randomly assign your horde/alliance starting point and then you have to fight from that side. So sometimes you start in the alliance camp and some times in the horde, change the NPCs and the building skins and away you go. No one can complain about one side having it easy when you have an equal chance of starting on either point

[Tr1cK]

Someone mentioned reversing the starting points and seeing what happens ...

I think that would be pretty cool, have all the BG's randomly assign your horde/alliance starting point and then you have to fight from that side. So sometimes you start in the alliance camp and some times in the horde, change the NPCs and the building skins and away you go. No one can complain about one side having it easy when you have an equal chance of starting on either point

Good idea. Though only AV has completely whacked out terrain that is totally imbalanced. WSG is a little different, but not enough to make a difference.

[HandofDread]

I'd like to point out that the posts I believe you referred to "Should You Have to do PvP to Get PvP Gear? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410448)" and "Should Blizzard Tackle Ganking? (http://www.worldofwar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=410699)" total over 300 comments and 300 votes between them, so obviously there is still a lot of discussion to be had over those particular topics.

Some of us have not all been around from the start, and discussed every morsel of the game. Some people here are relatively new, and these polls/threads give them and everyone else the opportunity to thrash out a topic which is prime for discussion. Is that not the purpose of a forum after all?

If you personally do not wish to read about a topic, don't click the thread, simple as that :smiley:

Now, less flaming and more discussing. So far it appears the majority of people think AV is well balanced. What's more interesting is that more people think AV favors Horde than Alliance - I'd really like to know why!

Amen to that... If you don't like the thread don't click it... And if you don't like any of the threads go make your own forum... and if anyone reads your forum then you've obviously tapped some portion of the market... good job....


Now as far as balance... it seems as if each person looks at their battlegroup and who wins most often in that bracket as the way to balance AV... what I'd be interested to know is who wins most among all the Battle groups? Among all the servers EU, Oceania, and US who dominates most often? That would be the best marker for balancing AV....

On my group (Retaliation) Allies win most of the BG's from EotS to AV... with the Horde dominating only in AB... (And by dominate I mean holding 3-4 of the points for nearly the entire game).... And the strat employed by the Allies in AV is the zerg for Drek.... never anything else ever... out of the oh 30-40 AVs I've played by now in the 70's bracket it's always one big zerg to Drek...

The Allies always reach Drek before the Horde reaches Van and the fights over in about 20 min. or so...

What I'd like to see is some sort of mechanic to slow zerging on both sides down... It's silly, anti-climatic, and just plain boring...

"Alright everyone just ride straight for Gav then skip everything and head to Drek".... "Oh and about 5 of you stay RIGHT on the bridge and hold them up long enough to ensure we win"....

IMHO the Ally have several choke points to defend from that only take a hand full of players to hold while most of the Horde area is wide open space....

Once you get past the IB point in Horde territory it's cake...

What should be done about this? Not a blooming clue... But I'd like to see some anti-zerging mechanic in place in the PTR's just to see how it works out... force people to think for a change rather then move enmasse straight for
Drek or Van...



Originally Posted by cyradis2003 View Post
Someone mentioned reversing the starting points and seeing what happens ...

I think that would be pretty cool, have all the BG's randomly assign your horde/alliance starting point and then you have to fight from that side. So sometimes you start in the alliance camp and some times in the horde, change the NPCs and the building skins and away you go. No one can complain about one side having it easy when you have an equal chance of starting on either point

^I like that idea a lot^ *Pleeeaaase try it on the PTR's :)

[Findariel]

The best post (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=2836744305&sid=1)I've read about this topic thus far:

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In regards to the changes that the developers are implementing in the upcoming patch, I would like to note some things. Let me first note that I have played every single incarnation of Alterac Valley, from the day long matches that it started out on to the 10 minute zergfest that it has become now. From hardly being able to kill the npc's before they respawned to being able to ignore them utterly. I have seen it all.
It is my opinion that the layout of the alterac valley battleground is unbalanced and should be adressed, to substantiate my point I will analyse the map from the viewpoint of map flow. Which I believe is one of the most deciding and least discussed aspects of Alterac Valley.

First we must define our concept, map flow. What does it mean, and more importantly, why is it important. Map flow in this definition describes the ease with which one attacking force can move through the map. Important aspects are choke points, travel times, accessibility to key structures and spawn locations. Having now established the meaning of map flow, we can move on to investigate the various aspects of it in relation to Alterac Valley.

First however, I will discuss why this is relevant and important. To do so I will use the words of what is considered the inventor of modern warfare, Sun Tzu:


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Q u o t e:

The army's formation is like water.
The water's formation avoids the high and rushes to the low.
So an army's formation avoids the strong and rushes to the weak.
Water's formation adapts to the ground when flowing.
So then an army's formation adapts to the enemy to achieve victory.
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This is a way of saying that the shape an army assumes is dictated by the circumstances of the situation, as is the way it moves. In Alterac Valley, where in principle the shape and size of the opposing forces are equal, themap design and lay out is the only element, the deciding factor, in shaping the movement of the two forces.

Now, this is even more relevant in the current incarnation of alterac valley because since the npc nerf it has become the fashion to focus on offense to maximize honour per hour gain. This means that whichever team has the advantage in reaching their objectives first will win the game as defense is usually very light.

So let's take a look at those deciding factors then!

Alterac Valley chokepoints
Below you can see the map of alterac valley with all relevant key structures and in this case, chokepoints.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/av.jpg

Chokepoints are good defensive positions through which an offensive force has to move through in order to advance. These points are defined by their accessibility to a graveyard and often cover fire from a nearby bunker.

As you can see, the allocation of chokepoints heavily favours the alliance side. I will analyse these points one by one.

Point one
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/point1.jpg
This point has a close proximity to the Iceblood Graveyard and partial cover from Iceblood tower. This is the key defensive position for the Horde in AV and is the basis of the 'scorched earth' tactic employed by the horde in the US in certain battlegroups. By successfully defending this position the horde can cut off the alliance from almost all horde positions in AV.

Point two
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/point2.jpg
This is an excellent defensive position for the alliance. It has full coverage from the Icewing bunker and can be resupplied with freshly spawned defenders from Stonehearth graveyard. Though cutting horde effectively off from the rest of AV, it is possible to pass by the left side of the icewing bunker. Alliance defense around this position is therefore usually located just in front of this point to cut off all horde completely.

Point three
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/point3.jpg
A classic defensive position, surrounded by high ridges on which defenders can take place, a corner to break line of sight and a graveyard just behind that. Although not a 'true' chokepoint because it is possible for the horde to pass under the alliance bridge and around the east road, it has nevertheless served that function in many AV's where the horde zerg is stopped at this position. This is an important point, which I will discuss later.

Point four
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/point4.jpg
The mother of all choke points. I've seen seven hour long battles fought over this position. Absolute only way to enter the alliance base as horde. Halfway across the bridge horde comes in range to the Dun Baldar north bunker, while at the end the south bunker also comes into play. Close resurrection point for alliance at stormpike aid station.


Defense: base entry, towers, graveyards
Base Entry
This last choke point brings me to the point of base entry. As you can see horde entry to the alliance base is severely limited by an extremely good chokepoint. In reverse however, he horde base is completely open to alliance entry as you can see in the following screenshot:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/openhouse.jpg

All one has to do as alliance is jump over the fence and one is in the base. The fence and main gate are not under cover from archers and are a long way from the Frostwolf Relief hut where the horde spawn.

Graveyards
Alliance and Horde each start with two main graveyards located outside their base. Stonehearth and Stormpike for the alliance, Iceblood and Frostwolf for the horde. Iceblood and Stonehearth are quite equal when it comes to defending them. When it comes to Stormpike and Frostwolf however, things are quite uneven.

Let's compare the two:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/stormpike.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/frostwolf.jpg

As you can see, stormpike has only two main entry ways, whereas frostwolf is approachable from every side. Apart from that, one of those two ways is through choke point number three and one has to pass this spawn point to enter the alliance base. Frostwolf however can be skipped entirely by jumping into the horde base over the fence. So not only is the horde position much harder to defend, but when horde does succeed in holding it, it is irrelevant as it offers scarcely any mean to keep alliance out of the base.

There is also the matter of the graveyards that are located in the horde and alliance bases. The issue at hand being that the horde graveyard is located quite far away from the defensive tower positions, leaving it isolated from the rest of the base. The alliance graveyard however can count on heavy support not only from its archers, but from several combat NPC's located quite near it, including the stormpike stable master which for all intents and purposes has the same HP pool as a warmaster.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/abase.jpg
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/hbase.jpg


Tower design
Tower/Bunker design is also heavily skewed. Whereas it is not possible to cap an alliance bunker without killing the defending npc's first, one does not have to kill a single horde NPC to accomplish the same. An exception to this rule exists for seasoned players who can find the exact position in which to stand without being hit from the archers in the alliance bunkers to cap them. These positions however differ per bunker and are unknown to 99% of the player base.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/tower.jpg (horde tower)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~hattuma/bunker.jpg (alliance bunker)

Coming together
Alterac Valley is a point of much heated debates, flames, whines and whatnot. I hope however that in the following section I can bind the elements that I have presented above together to a comprehensive and logical narrative that will show why the current lay out of the map in AV is unbalanced and should be addressed immediately. Firstly, as we have established, map flow is an extremely important element in the game. It defines who goes where, at which point and for what reason. More so in AV because it is an offensive based battleground rather than defensive.

So, the objective being destroying the enemies strongholds before they destroy yours it is clear that the alliance has a few clear advantages. Firstly, the alliance path to the horde base includes all objectives, starting at galvanger, going to Iceblood tower, moving on to iceblood graveyard and tower point, reaching frostwolf graveyard and subsequently the horde base. With only a single defensive position available to horde to prevent the alliance onset, offense is an extremely good strategy for the alliance. Not to mention that even if the horde is actively defending its positions, the alliance can circumvent them and simply walk into the horde base unhindered.

On the other side, horde has to send a few people away from the main force to take Stonhearth bunker, having to split up it's resources where the alliance can do everything in one great group, minimizing casualties, increasing chances of successfully conquering strategic positions. Next, perhaps one of the most important proofs of the map flow theory is that horde then proceeds to SKIP the capture of stonehearth graveyard. The reason for this lies in the extremely good defensive position the alliance has in stormpike graveyard and their base entry (chokepoints 3 and 4). Taking stonehearth graveyard automatically spawns the alliance defenders at a much better position to protect their base from, making it extremely hard for horde to win the game from that point onward.

This above all is the defining evidence of the map flow theory. The discrepancy between frostwolf and stormpike, the hardest and most easily to defend graveyards in the game show how the flow of the map is in favour of the alliance. Where the alliance can storm through the map unhindered save by one defensive position, the horde, in order to avoid being stopped at choke points three and four has to forgo taking an alliance defensive position. The mere fact that this is a universal truth about alterac valley play supports this theory.

This coupled with the leaky horde base, the discrepancy between defensive potential in horde/alliance bunkers and the position of the relief hut and aid station relative to the defensive structures in the base cause the alliance to have a major advantage when it comes to the map layout. At every point the horde has to take an extra step, put in more effort, to produce the same results.

Recent and future patches
Before patch 2.3 this discrepancy was offset in part by the lower difficulty of Balinda, leaving horde more time to advance in the alliance base as opposed to the alliance who needed more time to kill galvanger. With the change in hp levels in 2.3, and the change to more offensive power in 2.4 however this advantage has been nullified. This coupled with the fact that horde has to send out multiple people to take SH bunker (vs none or just one for alliance at IB) leaves the horde quite behind.

Not only this, but the planned change of the location of the horde cave, again changes the flow of the map in favor of the alliance. Though now being equal in distance, the shorter distance from the horde cave to balinda was needed to offset the structural map advantage the alliance has.

This means that in the next patch, AV will become again more stacked in favour of the alliance.

Possible Solutions
A possible solution would be to simply redesign the map (again) and make it a complete and perfect mirror. Every other battleground is, AV should be no different. Another option would be to randomize starting locations, though lore wise that would not be very fitting I suppose.

Conclusion
The structural design of AV has always been in favour of the alliance, and the current changes have only emphasized this process. By turning alterac valley into a purely offensive game where two forces race against eachother, the layout and general flow of the map become the defining factors in deciding who wins and who loses. It is time that blizzard acknowledged this unevenness in the map design of AV and addressed this issue.

[Leviathonlx]

I could tell the person who wrote that was a Horde player Fin without even looking at his screenshots :p. While I agree that the instance does favor Alliance he seems to want to overlook some things.

First of all on the map he forgets to label the second chokepoint Horde have in their base also between the 2 towers which works just as good as the bridge if defended properly with the problem stemming from the distance between the towers and the relief hut.

The one chokepoint (point 2) he mentions by Icewing Bunker works both ways. Once Horde take Stonehearth it becomes almost impossible for Alliance to get by if that area is defended and very rarely these days do Alliance ever actually use that chokepoint (as defending Stonehearth causes a turtle to happen) and thats more of a thing of the old AV.

His other chokepoint (Point 3) is only hard for Horde that are dumb and do not know how to take the high road instead of the low road or take the pathway that leads under the bridge.

Second Stormpike Graveyard is accessible from every direction just like the Frostwolf graveyard. You can jump from the back where people res, the road leading to it, go under the bridge and come up or come from the mine.

Something tells me that guy who wrote that was torn up in his forum post. While I feel Horde are at a disadvantage in the BG he seems to point out many of the wrong reasons. Things such as how Alliance can jump over the Horde bases walls and how the towers at Frostwolf do not reach the Relief Hut are problems.

[kodeeak]

I have both alliance and horde 70's in the same battlegroup.. assuming average player skill is on the same level, alliance get the favorable nod hands down.

How many times have I just rushed the fw aid station on my terribly geared pally with a warrior/healer tagging along and capped it.. well, I've lost count.

The only similar trick horde side is rushing stormpike and pulling the guards and associated npc's into the hall before van (to avoid tower fire) and pally tanking them with a hefty support of healer and dps.

Both the methods above assume light D from the opposing side, but even with a sizable horde squad defending, it's much easier to get by unnoticed for alliance.

both sides will quabble over this.. I've been on both sides of the fence and I can honestly say that alliance have an easier path to AV victory. The bridge is the single most effective zerg killer in any bg.