BT, MH and Sunwell Pleateu - First impressions?

[Cerberus]

Wow, I actually started a thread ;)

So.. with the attunements being lifted and Sunwell Plateau in the game what are your first impressions?

Anyone without Kael&Vashj down had a go at Rage yet (or BT even)? Would be interesting to know what a guild halfway into SSC and TK thinks of Rage. I have a feeling most guilds that went through the old attunements often spent more time than necessary in those instances and got more gear and practice than needed for the first part of MH.

Vashj being too hard (imo) and Kael not exactly being a pushover has also been a big factor in holding guilds back ofc.

Gear isn't the most important part, but it does make a difference. We spent a lot of time in SSC&TK attuning people and ended up with a pretty pimped out team of core raiders. I'm sure we would have met MH with a lot weaker raid without those extra runs to replace people quitting and leaving (being on a low pop PvE server doesn't really make recruitment any easier either.. ).

That said, Rage and even Anatheron and Kazrogal really are pushovers considering where they are in progression.

Would also love to hear from anyone having tried SP. We're considering having a go to get an idea how hard it is (we're currently at Bloodboil and expecting Archi down this week).

[Navhead]

I think it was a good move to remove the attunements at this stage of the expansion, and I'm liking the title. :P Was amusing last night when we were clearing MH to see one of the more casual scrub guilds downing Winterchill, and I'm assuming they've only been wiping in T5 instances so far because they haven't posted any kills on the realm forum.

We're taking it easy and not going to Sunwell for the first time until next monday. From what I've heard though is that Kalecgos is mostly about execution and should be np for a half T6 geared raid, but it's likely you won't have the dps to down Brutallus until you've farmed BT for a while. Think he required 28k raid dps in total, I reckon we'll need a bit more farming as well.

Really liking Isle of Quel'Danas too, gonna try Magisters Terrace out today. Just hoping curse.com stops being so choked up and all the addons get sorted out, seemed to have a lot of problems with the new combatlog.

[Aerath]

Haven't seen Sunwell yet. We're only just past Teron, so gonna wait a bit more. Don't quite feel like clearing some 12-15 involving trash pulls just to wipe on the first boss and have to do it again.

I still think Vashj and Kael are at the right place in progression and am pretty pleased that the first couple bosses after are easier - it's sort of a reward. It wouldn't have made any real difference if the first bosses had been as hard as those two, and Naj'entus and Azrogal would've been in place of K+V.

You'd still have been blocked - just at a slightly different place.

Have to agree it's a good move to just remove the attunement requirements by now. It gives more people a chance to see what it's all about and the 'real' t4/t5 guilds likely won't get any further than the first two bosses in MH anyway.

[Shellar]

My overall impression of the Sunwell Plateau so far is a favorable one. Kalecgos's trash was adequate, but nothing to write home about. Basically, it's a remake of the Illidari Council trashmobs (single killer robots + groups of blood elves who belong to specific classes), with some ZA-style scouts thrown in for good measure. The boss encounter itself, on other hand, was simply brilliant: elegant to the point of almost becoming minimalistic, yet surprisingly open-ended.

[Lobothomy]

Archi turns out to be a cool fight. Preparing with the tears by jumping of that cliff besdies the road for 30 minutes is fun. We're thinking of having a 'last man stand' competition for some dkp ^^

Magister's terrace is nicely laid out. Fun bosses, though I did expect some new strategies. Haven't tried heroic yet, but will farm untill that damn nice trinket drops.

[Baboon]

We just killed Kael the last night before the patch, so I assume we will be having no trouble at all with Rage. Going there tonight ;)

[moopy]

Kalecgos is an interesting fight..

[Shellar]

Finally downed him tonight. It looks like equipping the entire raid with Karazhan AR trinkets makes a *huge* difference in regards to Arcane Buffet survivability. :smiley:

While waiting for the raid, I had a chance to try out MgT (both normal and heroic versions) on my tankadin. And I tell you, when I finally figured out how the abilities and the AI of the third boss and her adds worked, I actually laughed out loud IRL. Whoever thought of putting a 5v5 Arena team into a PvE instance was a mad genius.

[syed]

Whoever thought of putting a 5v5 Arena team into a PvE instance was a mad genius.

Will agree with you on this one. I wiped like 5 or 7 times in heroic. Rogue / Arms Warrior are really strong and a pain. I am either stunned or feared throughout the fight. And by the way, I happened to reach their with Hunter, Me (Tank), Priest (Healer), Mage (Fire) and Druid (Feral) in heroic mode. The fight was a pain. We finally got control of it when the druid off tank and off heal as well lol. Lack of CC is a death wish there.

One question, (not sure for where to go with this question) if a 25 man group who have cleared Gurul's ... can we jump into Sunwell raid to do trash only and no bosses, as I think we will be interested in the new recepies and drops from the new raid instance. Is this possible or worth the shot? or we won't even stand a chance at all?

[Aerath]

Finally downed him tonight. It looks like equipping the entire raid with Karazhan AR trinkets makes a *huge* difference in regards to Arcane Buffet survivability. :smiley:

While waiting for the raid, I had a chance to try out MgT (both normal and heroic versions) on my tankadin. And I tell you, when I finally figured out how the abilities and the AI of the third boss and her adds worked, I actually laughed out loud IRL. Whoever thought of putting a 5v5 Arena team into a PvE instance was a mad genius.

Well, to be fair, the tier 0.5 quest line had a somewhat similar encounter, so it isn't like it's completely new. I did like the encounter though.

And syed... to be frank, I wouldn't bother. t6 groups can wipe on 'em still if they don't execute it right. If you do go try, bring 5 mages.

[rgirty]

Was amusing last night when we were clearing MH to see one of the more casual scrub guilds downing Winterchill

Can you explain the reasoning behind this statement?

What exactly makes a guild a "scrub" guild?

I'd like to know because my own guild while being the 5th most advanced alliance guild on our server suffers the same issue that you are displaying here.

We downed vashj pre 2.4 but not kael. We simply ran out of time, we downed our first boss in ssc only 10 weeks or so ago. 90% of the people in our guild have 1 of the following.

A Job
A spouse
A child

Does having those RL responsibilities make us scrubs? One of the best players in the guild is a warlock, the other a high ranking public servant.

When our lock says he needs to log early tonight because he has to deliver a baby in the morning and needs to be alert, does that make us scrubs?

When our public servant will miss a day or two of raiding because he's meeting with the governor of his state and other officials for a day or two, does that grant us a scrub title?

I'm just curious because we downed rage winterchill in the first handful of attempts and were promptly greeted with "GG scrubs" even tho the people saying it were not downing anything in MH and only 5-6 other guilds of our faction even now have downed any boss in mh/bt.

If that is the logic behind it, then any guild downing any raid bosses in outland can be hit with the scrub label if they haven't cleared Naxx.

I'm seriously curious as this has really struck a cord with me.

What criteria must one's guild meet before they are deemed "scrubs"?

[coani]

Any tips on Kalecgos? We wiped on him last night & the other night, our best try so far was 63/60... :/


rgirty: Usually people who refer to others as "scrubs" are suffering from ego/self-esteem problems and feel a need to put down other people to "boost" themselves and make themselves look more important. I usually ignore them, they're not worth the bother. You are playing your game, not theirs.

[Aerath]

Coani - figure out why you wiped first.

Were tanks insta-gibbed ? Did healers simple run oom ?

Figure out what happened and then remedy that.

[clevins]

What criteria must one's guild meet before they are deemed "scrubs"?

non-scrubs typically do not have 1 of the following:

A Job
A spouse
A child

:laugh:

And that coming from people who aren't even as advanced as you is funny. Grats on the Rage kill.

[Shellar]

Any tips on Kalecgos? We wiped on him last night & the other night, our best try so far was 63/60... :/
1. Have everyone wear their AR trinkets from Karazhan. This is not a DPS race (unlike Brutallus), and every resisted Arcane Buffet saves lives.
2. Don't waste time running away from the raid if your get cursed. Just have all decursers monitor the timers and remove it after 8-10 ticks.
3. All melee DPSers take the very first portal, and then take portals whenever their debuff fades. This ensures that they arrive into the Inner Veil as a group, and continue to buff each other with totems/auras/shouts/etc.
What criteria must one's guild meet before they are deemed "scrubs"?
If you play less than us, you're scrubs.
If you play more than us, you have no lives.

[Aerath]

1. Have everyone wear their AR trinkets from Karazhan. This is not a DPS race (unlike Brutallus), and every resisted Arcane Buffet saves lives.
2. Don't waste time running away from the raid if your get cursed. Just have all decursers monitor the timers and remove it after 8-10 ticks.
3. All melee DPSers take the very first portal, and then take portals whenever their debuff fades. This ensures that they arrive into the Inner Veil as a group, and continue to buff each other with totems/auras/shouts/etc.

If you play less than us, you're scrubs.
If you play more than us, you have no lives.

Meh. My bad on mixing up Brutallus and Kalecgos.

Regardless what I said holds true to a point - figure out what went wrong first.

As an aside, Kalecgos does fine as punching bag for a bit.

[moopy]

Any tips on Kalecgos? We wiped on him last night & the other night, our best try so far was 63/60... :/


Set up rotations to stop the arcane thingy stacking too high, know which groups follow tanks in.. decurse only after the curse starts hurting, and remember to spread- the distance frame is there for a reason.. :)

Shellar,

I think opinions differered for us on the violet badge- I know I wore mine, as the buffet is partially resistible (teaching my grandmother to suck eggs), and the extra stam was nice- was going into the fight with a shade over 11k HP in my normal healing gear, with that and stam food.

Fun fight though- really enjoyed it. Nicely designed- no tank and spank.

To whoever was asking about trash farming.. the giant robot/scout trash with WTFpwn you- it's nastier than "one-shot the robot" in BT. Takes a while to get the hang of it, and will eat your raid unless you have a decent amount of healing :)

I loved Magister's Terrace- though heroic mode doesn't seem terribly different to normal- though normal is pitched at a gratifyingly higher level than previous 5-mans. Reminds me of the difficulty of Dire Maul in its prime. I really liked the pure energy boss- which rips the party to bits in seconds if someone goes in hot with a pair of warglaives (and I discovered that I can't heal through that :-). Cleared it a couple of times for rep now, held back by reset timer..

[Navhead]

Can you explain the reasoning behind this statement?

What exactly makes a guild a "scrub" guild?

I'd like to know because my own guild while being the 5th most advanced alliance guild on our server suffers the same issue that you are displaying here.


Should have guessed you'd take this personally, I had no clue that people on your server were that "nice". The guild I mentioned has been raiding Kara at the most, is very low profile, very casual etc. I didn't mean "lol they couldn't kill Kael before the patch and now stroll into MH for free epix", I could care less who killed what when. As I said I think lifting the attunements was a good move.

[coani]

Unrelated to all of above posts, but fits under the MH header:

Full clear of MH now seems to give ~7872 rep, which is a huge boost from the ~2800 before.

Another thing I noticed: on Horde camp phase, Thrall now responds much quicker (at approx 30 range most of the time) when you kite trash to him to get him to fight.... beats sitting down with him for a nice cup of tea & knitting underwear while trash is beating you to pulp in front of him.

[Katrala]

The guild I mentioned has been raiding Kara at the most, is very low profile, very casual etce.

I'm in complete agreement with rgirty and I understand his comments.

So instead of just a "casual" guild downing Rage, they are a "casual scrub" guild - what's the difference?

Casual, low-profile = scrub?

My guild and I (a scrub guild, I suppose, since we are just beginning 25 mans and all have families and play casually) easily cleared MgT normal the first night and I had numerous PUGs that kept wiping on the 3rd boss in the following days.

We (full guild, again) did heroic MgT yesterday and only wiped twice on the first boss - once because I got locked out of the room (FYI - a big wall comes down once the fight begins) and another time because I disconnected halfway through the fight.

The third boss seemed pretty easy as long as all the adds in front are cleared and they can be pulled out and taken one at a time. We got her on the first attempt with two PvP / Kara geared mages, a pally tank and healer, and a warlock. Heroic went much smoother than normals ever did.

My guild is just beginning 25 mans, although I think we'll probably at least go into MH just to see what it's like (not right now, of course, but likely before we're officially ready.)

[Navhead]

I'm in complete agreement with rgirty and I understand his comments.

So instead of just a "casual" guild downing Rage, they are a "casual scrub" guild - what's the difference?


Guess it's just a bit of a reputation they have. People sure are touchy, maybe it was a poor choice of words on my behalf in the first place. :P

On to the topic, had our first visit to Sunwell today. Took a while to learn the trash (no random drops yet ;<), and had a few tries on Kalecgos. Can't say too much about it cause we didn't survive more than 2-3 portals at most, it's pretty brutal on the healers at times.

[moopy]

Nav,

You think Kalecgos is hard on healers? One word.. "Brutallis". Definately not a boss for people who couldn't down Kael or get into BT before 2.4. Gear check on the tanks, healers and DPS :)

Blizz are to be praised though, it's a refreshingly short and explosive fight- and virtually no trash. Corpse runs are short. He hits like a freight train full of lead bars on tanks who laugh in Illidan's face. Great stuff.

[Aerath]

Nav,

You think Kalecgos is hard on healers? One word.. "Brutallis". Definately not a boss for people who couldn't down Kael or get into BT before 2.4. Gear check on the tanks, healers and DPS :)

Blizz are to be praised though, it's a refreshingly short and explosive fight- and virtually no trash. Corpse runs are short. He hits like a freight train full of lead bars on tanks who laugh in Illidan's face. Great stuff.

Check your tanks' avoidance... (on a WWS I mean, you'll find something entertaining.)

All the stuff in SW has an aura which gives +5% hit and 'expertise' worth of 20% dodge...

[Hydro]

Nav,

You think Kalecgos is hard on healers? One word.. "Brutallis". Definately not a boss for people who couldn't down Kael or get into BT before 2.4. Gear check on the tanks, healers and DPS :)

Blizz are to be praised though, it's a refreshingly short and explosive fight- and virtually no trash. Corpse runs are short. He hits like a freight train full of lead bars on tanks who laugh in Illidan's face. Great stuff.

Brutallus is a much easier fight to heal than Kalecgos, it's very little raid damage, and tank life and death is based more on luck than actual skill.

Kalecgos is a hard encounter, but any guild that has farmed Illidan for 3-4 months should be able to kill him within a couple of days tops. He is the harder of the 3 first bosses to learn and repeat.

Felmyst is a slightly harder to meet DPS check than Brutallus, and is probably the hardest to heal of the 3, but easiest to repeat.

[moopy]

Brutallus is a much easier fight to heal than Kalecgos, it's very little raid damage, and tank life and death is based more on luck than actual skill.

No, it really isn't. As one of the burn healers, I was significantly above all the other other healers, unless I got burned a lot, at which point, I wasted time running out of the way. My healing output and mana spend was off the scale compared to Kalecgos, which is a relatively easy fight to heal.

What's more, tank death is entirely avoidable with skill- calling out the stomp on voice, so healers (including burn healers) can help out while the debuff was up. I found that the tank in my slash circle stopped dying when we started calling out the stomp and I added some extra healing at the crucial moment.

Aerath,

The aura is fiendish, absolutely :-) A really fun new instance. Blizz really are applying what they've learned, it's well worth the time and effort- and isn't a letdown for guilds who have become a little restless farming BT/MH for the last six months.

[Aerath]

Aerath,

The aura is fiendish, absolutely :-) A really fun new instance. Blizz really are applying what they've learned, it's well worth the time and effort- and isn't a letdown for guilds who have become a little restless farming BT/MH for the last six months.

Needed, rather than fiendish. Otherwise I'd agree with you. It's simply due to Blizzard not expecting anything after Illidan or getting the maths wrong.

A hit-immune druid would've been quite an awkward situation for Blizzard.

[Shellar]

Incidentally, it also gives Blizzard an easy way to nerf Sunwell into a more accessible state once WotLK becomes imminent. Just remove the aura!

[moopy]

I suspect it will be nerfed before that even- right now it's pitched to the point where it's a gear check for people with BT clear, but I wouldn't be amazed if it was nerfed after a month or two, and then nerfed much harder closer to Wrath. They'll likely make an initial rather than global nerf of bosses which prove to be sticking points for all but the "server first" style guilds- shades of Solarian..

[Aerath]

Incidentally, it also gives Blizzard an easy way to nerf Sunwell into a more accessible state once WotLK becomes imminent. Just remove the aura!

Allegedly it'll be removed once phase3 on the island hits.

No clue if that's the case, but we'll find out in due time.

[kodeeak]

Kalecgos is a hard encounter, but any guild that has farmed Illidan for 3-4 months should be able to kill him within a couple of days tops. He is the harder of the 3 first bosses to learn and repeat.
agreed, found brutallus much easier as a whole than kalecgos.. kalecgos was more of a "getting people on the same page" burden than anything else tho...

[Pongle]

Whoever thought of putting a 5v5 Arena team into a PvE instance was a mad genius.

I agree, it actually made PvE challenging.. FOR ABOUT 5 MINUTES.

[Baboon]

We had killed Kael the night before the patch arrived. So far we managed to kill the first 3 bosses in MH and Najentus in BT. We spent 3 evenings in MH, basicly killing one boss every night. Yesterday we killed Kaz'rogal for the first time, went to BT without having read any tactic and killed Najentus as well (well we did read on him fast ofcourse before starting). Must trouble was with the trash, we wiped a lot because we had to find out what to do on the spot.

So, compared to the struggle with Vashj and Kael, it's been a walk in the park so far. We also went back to Vashj one night last week and failed to kill her ;)

[moopy]

Baboon, the first three or so bosses in BT (Naj'entus, Supremus, Shade of Akama) are a total cakewalk. It gets a bit harder after that, Gorefiend is execution-sensitive, but not a huge step up. Bloodboil is the usually the "brick wall" boss that stops most guilds in their tracks for a bit.

A lot of guilds who got to BT/MH the old-fashioned way (and thus have some gear and co-ordination) kill the first three in BT on their first visit, and 2-3 in MH. In Hyjal, Archimonde is the brick wall opponent. A classic execution-sensitive fight- it's mostly (cue the Bee Gees) about staying alive, and not standing in stuff. If your raids have been carried by the tanks and healers until then, brain damaged DPS who are borderline AFK are gonna hurt :-)

[Hydro]

No, it really isn't. As one of the burn healers, I was significantly above all the other other healers, unless I got burned a lot, at which point, I wasted time running out of the way. My healing output and mana spend was off the scale compared to Kalecgos, which is a relatively easy fight to heal.

What's more, tank death is entirely avoidable with skill- calling out the stomp on voice, so healers (including burn healers) can help out while the debuff was up. I found that the tank in my slash circle stopped dying when we started calling out the stomp and I added some extra healing at the crucial moment.

Aerath,

The aura is fiendish, absolutely :-) A really fun new instance. Blizz really are applying what they've learned, it's well worth the time and effort- and isn't a letdown for guilds who have become a little restless farming BT/MH for the last six months.



I completely disagree, and tank gibs are really only a problem if your tanks haven't taken the time to farm the correct gear and be vocal on vent. With the right timing you can get it down to about 1 stomp per tanking session. Burns can be removed by half the classes and don't even start catching up until about 4 minutes in.

I was personally let down by the zone, I was expecting Naxx level difficulty, and we got a zone easier than pre-nerf SSC.

[surodat]

One of the best players in the guild is a warlock, the other a high ranking public servant.

When our lock says he needs to log early tonight because he has to deliver a baby in the morning and needs to be alert, does that make us scrubs?


I wanna be a baby-delivering warlock IRL. Or roll an Undead Public Servant.

edit: Paperwork crits for 15,000

[moopy]

I completely disagree, and tank gibs are really only a problem if your tanks haven't taken the time to farm the correct gear and be vocal on vent.

It's abundantly clear that you haven't ever tried to heal this fight. When yoiu get freak chains of burns on tank healers, tank gibs can easily happen- even on tanks with enough expertise. It's not a difficult fight per se, but what I actually said, which you don't seem to be sufficiently informed to comment on, is that it's a much more difficult fight to heal than Kalecgos. In terms of raw HPS, it's much more pressured, and mana is stretched alot further. Kalecgos is utterly trivial for healers- it's the decursers that have mana problems if you're unlucky with curses landing on someone just before they port out to the normal realm. Again, Kalecgos isn't hard per se- we can kill him with zero deaths, it's just a case of everyone getting into the rhythm of the fight and being clear about how the portal groups work.

[DraedynLei]

So, compared to the struggle with Vashj and Kael, it's been a walk in the park so far.

Pretty much says it all. Compared to the grind of Vashj and Kael, Hyjal and BT have been pretty straight forward so far. 5/5 4/9... though I heard RoS is a grind. We'll see in a couple of bosses I suppose. Hopefully we have enough SR for Mother when we get there.

[Hydro]

It's abundantly clear that you haven't ever tried to heal this fight. When yoiu get freak chains of burns on tank healers, tank gibs can easily happen- even on tanks with enough expertise. It's not a difficult fight per se, but what I actually said, which you don't seem to be sufficiently informed to comment on, is that it's a much more difficult fight to heal than Kalecgos. In terms of raw HPS, it's much more pressured, and mana is stretched alot further. Kalecgos is utterly trivial for healers- it's the decursers that have mana problems if you're unlucky with curses landing on someone just before they port out to the normal realm. Again, Kalecgos isn't hard per se- we can kill him with zero deaths, it's just a case of everyone getting into the rhythm of the fight and being clear about how the portal groups work.


Considering I've killed every iteration of Brutallus from PTR to Live, on a healer and a tank, I would say yes I can comment on it.
I'm not talking about chance of tank gib, I mean the actual difficulty of giving people alive. Brutallus is a trivial fight with plenty of time for reaction to burns, and total lack of cancellation on the MTs themselves.
Paladins on tank healers pretty much negates the chance (or makes it really really low at least) of multiple MT healers getting burns, and it simply isn't reasonable to expect unhealable bad burns to happen more than once or twice in a month of trys and kills.

Kalecgos is not a hard fight, but the healing difficulty, i.e. the amount of thought you have to put into healing, is sufficiently higher.

Your tanks are gearing for Brutallus wrong if they are using raw stamina or expertise gear, he hasn't ever hasted his attacks from parries on live, and threat generation is pretty trivial for anyone that can smash a button rapidly.

[YamahaGuy]

Cant give you first impressions of BT and MH just yet.

Almost every active raider of my guild will be officially attuned to the Black Temple soon :D

Tho we all decided to stay behind and not skip, and it was hard to watch skippers get 4-5 bosses each while we worked on Kael, we will meet them soon and still carry our respect, with reputation rewards and our attunement titles.

Some of those guilds didnt even have 5/6 SSC or 3/4 TK but if your going to skip that much content, why even play the game. Just my 2c. Skipping content to see.... other content, doesnt make much sense to us anyway. And its funny to watch them get flamed on the realm forum every time they post in the progression thread XD

Last night was our second Kael kill. The first kill was probably the biggest boss high in WoW for me and a lot of others. It really did great for our guild too. Not only did it thin out those who cant cut it, but a sense of togetherness we got from killing him as a team.

...

Now if only I could get people to stop saying "Energy. Power. My people are addicted to it."

[Ritsuko]

I think Rage was a gift for the people who killed Kael and Vashj. My guild clears Bt and I still hate the vashj fight. Kael is SO easy once you get it, but Vashj, a lot is based on luck.

Removing the attunement didn't matter imo. Guilds that can't kill Vashj and Kael wont get very far in Bt or MH anyways. And of course the title was nice =D

Brut is a tank and spank fight with a few tricks, nothing else. It's a 100% gear/dps check. If you have the gear you can be completely stupid and still do it.

Btw, know this post was a ways back, but..
Mgt..you cannot even compare it to BT. Not even start, and by trying, you look like a fool. Heroic mgt is not hard as long as you don't have stupid people. If your guild clears Kara, has just gone into 25 mans, doesn't make you a scrub, people have lives, but you can't compare that either to people who clear BT and are going through sunwell. Any guild can kill Mag/grulls, can kill rage imo. Have your trinkets, don't be stupid, not hard.

his point is now people run in there, think their hot. Go do the 1st few bosses in Bt, that are absolutely a joke, and compare themselves to people who kill Bloodboil(>.>), Illidan, and Brut.

[Navhead]

Now if only I could get people to stop saying "Energy. Power. My people are addicted to it."

Hahahaha, oh that takes me back. Grats on the Kael kill btw, I know for me wiping on him and Vashj for weeks was some of the most fun I've had in WoW, even though it sounds weird.

It won't be long before your new catchphrase is gonna be "Akama, your duplicity is hardly surprising... I should have slaughtered you and your malformed brethren long ago." That speech gets very old very fast too. :D

[Tort]

Grats Yamaha on Kael. I have a ton of respect for those guilds who decided to keep working on Vashj and Kael even after 2.4 was released. I'm sure it was hard watching all the other guilds surpass you and farm easy epics, but now its your time!

I just don't understand completely skipping Vashj and Kael, it just seems so.....wrong.

[rgirty]

Cant give you first impressions of BT and MH just yet.

Almost every active raider of my guild will be officially attuned to the Black Temple soon :D

Tho we all decided to stay behind and not skip, and it was hard to watch skippers get 4-5 bosses each while we worked on Kael, we will meet them soon and still carry our respect, with reputation rewards and our attunement titles.

Some of those guilds didnt even have 5/6 SSC or 3/4 TK but if your going to skip that much content, why even play the game. Just my 2c. Skipping content to see.... other content, doesnt make much sense to us anyway. And its funny to watch them get flamed on the realm forum every time they post in the progression thread XD

Last night was our second Kael kill. The first kill was probably the biggest boss high in WoW for me and a lot of others. It really did great for our guild too. Not only did it thin out those who cant cut it, but a sense of togetherness we got from killing him as a team.

...

Now if only I could get people to stop saying "Energy. Power. My people are addicted to it."

Grats bud, we chose not to down him and are 3 bosses into MH and plan to do najentus pretty quickly.

We've seen him once, not a serious attempt (kael) but plan to go back one of these days.

Everyone has their own thoughts of how they should progress and good work getting this boss down.

[YamahaGuy]

Thanks. We were a bit late on upgrading a tankadin for MH. But we got champion tokens off Kael, Vashj and Leo since Tuesday reset; two SSC craftables made, the ring off magth, two new badge gear upgrades and other misc ups.

So we'll be rockin the house soon :D

(yes, we still bag-mag allowing some alts n pug when theres only 30 minutes left of raid time. heh heh. mmm gems n bag n gold)

[rgirty]

Thanks. We were a bit late on upgrading a tankadin for MH. But we got champion tokens off Kael, Vashj and Leo since Tuesday reset; two SSC craftables made, the ring off magth, two new badge gear upgrades and other misc ups.

So we'll be rockin the house soon :D

(yes, we still bag-mag allowing some alts n pug when theres only 30 minutes left of raid time. heh heh. mmm gems n bag n gold)

We do mag/gruul and whatever else on a non dkp night to give everyone a chance to roll for things for offspec of gear to get started in pvp areas.

Just for fun.

[Lobothomy]

Hahahaha, oh that takes me back. Grats on the Kael kill btw, I know for me wiping on him and Vashj for weeks was some of the most fun I've had in WoW, even though it sounds weird.

It won't be long before your new catchphrase is gonna be "Akama, your duplicity is hardly surprising... I should have slaughtered you and your malformed brethren long ago." That speech gets very old very fast too. :D


"Alanore Salami" sticks.

[moopy]

It won't be long before your new catchphrase is gonna be "Akama, your duplicity is hardly surprising... I should have slaughtered you and your malformed brethren long ago." That speech gets very old very fast too. :D

"YOU have not REPAIRED!"

In other news, still haven't downed Eredar Twins in Sunwell Plateau.. way too much slacking :-)

[Shellar]

In other news, still haven't downed Eredar Twins in Sunwell Plateau.. way too much slacking :-)
Ditto. :sad:

[moopy]

I'm sure we'll both see them bite the wax-fattened tadpole before too long..

[YamahaGuy]

Well, some first impressions now :D

Went to Mount Hyjal for the first time last night. Lemme say it is the suck to have to clear 8 waves of trash PER attempt. I'm sure we'll be sick of trash soon enough.

Though it was fun last night. Think the hunters had a lot of fun kiting things around, and pally tanking is just amazing. Kinda annoying to loot amongst that mass pile.

Looting sucks; its very hard to "take tells" for the epic drops we got and fight waves at the same time -.- think the hammer of judgment sat there for at least 2 waves. Grrrrrrr

It seems pretty easy; sadly because only 1/2 the raid was alive for our first rage Winterchill (tankadin died on wave 8) it took 2 tries to get him.

We also downed Anatheron. That wasnt too terrible but annoying indeed. Infernal+swarm on the same group of people usually means they die. Which seemed to happen alot more than anticipated. Sometimes the NPCs would gang up on the infernal in the middle of the raid; then we couldnt get the infernal off the NPCS. Then the infernal killed the NPC's so they attacked 'next highest agro'. Sigh

Well, we will go back there today and see what else we can down. Im worried a little more about Kaz, since "DPS HARD" means "blow a lot of mana" and one of our weaknesses as a group is "anything that requires spreading out" since half the people expect the other half to move >.<

For algazor I see reccomendations for melees to "wear FR gear". That should be interesting. Doubt any of them have more than the cipher of damnation neck or the magtheridon ring

// Oh. We quickly learned the tankadin will need repairs every two attempts or wave sets; and will have to carry 2 shields in his inventory.

lawl.

[moopy]

It will get a lot easier as people get the hang of it, YG. If you're using a tankadin, it's important that they don't pick up too many mobs- or they become unhealable, even in t6. I've personally seen tankadins overcook it here and die. A good tankadin will judge it and be (relatively!) easy to keep alive.

I wouldn't really bother with resist gear, to be honest. If you have a raid geared enough to be in MH, you won't need it. Melee need to run out of rain of fire and ranged need to be awake. Then, the amount of RoF on people is totally healable.

To be honest, you'll soon rip through all the bosses here bar Archi. They are pretty easy compared to Kael- simple fights. Archimonde, however, may be a little more frustrating :-)

Gear requirements for MH aren't that bad- a guild decked in tier 5 can clear the place- the last boss, however, requires some execution. He does become easy when everyone does what they're supposed to, but slackers watching TV while they play can wipe the raid- so frustrating. I wouldn't really say you needed either fire or shadow gear to clear MH. I still don't have a fire set, as it goes (tanks may be a different matter, of course, but I don't worry myself over that :-).

[Hydro]

Well, some first impressions now :D

Went to Mount Hyjal for the first time last night. Lemme say it is the suck to have to clear 8 waves of trash PER attempt. I'm sure we'll be sick of trash soon enough.

Though it was fun last night. Think the hunters had a lot of fun kiting things around, and pally tanking is just amazing. Kinda annoying to loot amongst that mass pile.

Looting sucks; its very hard to "take tells" for the epic drops we got and fight waves at the same time -.- think the hammer of judgment sat there for at least 2 waves. Grrrrrrr

It seems pretty easy; sadly because only 1/2 the raid was alive for our first rage Winterchill (tankadin died on wave 8) it took 2 tries to get him.

We also downed Anatheron. That wasnt too terrible but annoying indeed. Infernal+swarm on the same group of people usually means they die. Which seemed to happen alot more than anticipated. Sometimes the NPCs would gang up on the infernal in the middle of the raid; then we couldnt get the infernal off the NPCS. Then the infernal killed the NPC's so they attacked 'next highest agro'. Sigh

Well, we will go back there today and see what else we can down. Im worried a little more about Kaz, since "DPS HARD" means "blow a lot of mana" and one of our weaknesses as a group is "anything that requires spreading out" since half the people expect the other half to move >.<

For algazor I see reccomendations for melees to "wear FR gear". That should be interesting. Doubt any of them have more than the cipher of damnation neck or the magtheridon ring

// Oh. We quickly learned the tankadin will need repairs every two attempts or wave sets; and will have to carry 2 shields in his inventory.

lawl.



Pre-make positions before the boss comes, have everyone set where they need to stand. It works well on basically every boss fight in the game.

Don't worry about looting mid wave, it will stay on the body until after the boss dies or after you wipe, you can take tells when things calm down.

You don't really need FR, just use a totem and a couple of the epic pieces if you are having healing problems. I haven't been there in a few months, but I am relatively certain the ROF was substantially nerfed as well, making it much easier to heal through.

[Aerath]

We swapped from Bids to a fixed price and group loot on trash waves.

Roll if need, if it you get it it'll cost you a solid amount of DKP.

[YamahaGuy]

A trash mob with an epic despawned after we wiped. All the bodies despawned. That normal? Kinda sad it happened.

We did horde side last night. Downed Kaz'rogal but not Algazor. Our attempt on Algazor sucked because the tankadin died on wave 8 so half the raid was dead.

I hate the horde side trash. Mainly gargoyles. We sent hunters and locks to "agro them and kite them to the front for tanks" but it doesnt work well. They cant get agro off the horde NPC's shooting the gargs. Only half of them will come. Then they land, I cant reach half of them. I run around circling one spamming taunt until I find a "sweet spot" and it finally takes. Then the same with shield slam. By that time, its moved back to a caster already.

Its a mess. Sadly.

We also have problems misdirecting the boss and picking him up. He gets stuck on the horde NPC's at the front gate. Even with a misdirect the NPC's out agro it. They spend time killing all of that before coming to the raid. Its really annoying.

If you kite Kazrogal between the warriors / thrall to get them all engaged, you lose ALL that time on DPS. That whole time Im kiting + being stunned + being slowed could have been DPS time.

Oh and... Algazor... 7k+ melee on plate? WHAT!

[moopy]

7k? Try Felmyst, who can hit plate for 14k. 26k in two seconds isn't uncommon. I'm not talking badly geared tanks either, ones who can take a kicking from Illidan without any major problems.

Anyway, there are a couple of ways to deal with your Gargoyle issues. One is to have people use the tents for LoS, which makes the Gargs come down. The easier one is to have shamans jump up and down, interrupting their casts with a rank 1 earthshock- this brings them down right away. Problem solved. Use the shammies, Luke :-)

[YamahaGuy]

Hmm. Are we doing things wrong trying to get them to come to the front, where the rest of the AOE party is? With the agro from the NPC spear throwers, its nearly impossible to get ALL TEN kited that whole distance

[EdvinMedvind]

We move most of the raid to the gargoyles.

[rgirty]

We use need/greed on all the trash drops because we've seen all of them now multiple times. It just makes it easier and for sure that nothing goes to waste.

We have also downed the first three bosses pretty easily and I think the 4th will come this week.

[moopy]

Hmm. Are we doing things wrong trying to get them to come to the front, where the rest of the AOE party is? With the agro from the NPC spear throwers, its nearly impossible to get ALL TEN kited that whole distance

The ones at the back should die in situ, more or less. Precise positioning doesn't matter, but you don't need to drag them anywhere special. Just get them down to group level to make them easier to kill.

There are some waves (a wave? I forget) where they spawn way back, and a some people should go back there to deal with them. A couple of groups should go, maybe.. and whichever set of people is finished first (at the front or back) can always help the other out. Splitting the raid temporarily doesn't really hurt- people can always mount up when they're OOC etc. in MH :)

[YamahaGuy]

Aye, that sounds like a much better idea. Plus the first 10 garg pack comes with... 4 gouls? that melees could easily take care of.

Think it would be wise to let the front NPC's die on trash, so they dont totally mess with the boss each time >< it wastes time while bosses kill them, its hard to misdirect the boss, and more. =/

[moopy]

I meant "to ground level", sorry..

As for letting the NPCs die, I think people generally try and avoid that where possible- but I've never noticed what happens when a bass is inbound- I'm usually at my spot, trying to mana up before all heck breaks loose :)

[Hydro]

7k? Try Felmyst, who can hit plate for 14k. 26k in two seconds isn't uncommon. I'm not talking badly geared tanks either, ones who can take a kicking from Illidan without any major problems.

Anyway, there are a couple of ways to deal with your Gargoyle issues. One is to have people use the tents for LoS, which makes the Gargs come down. The easier one is to have shamans jump up and down, interrupting their casts with a rank 1 earthshock- this brings them down right away. Problem solved. Use the shammies, Luke :-)

Use a feral, prosper.

[moopy]

Use a feral, prosper.

Nope, hits a feral just as hard, if not harder. Easier to kill him with a warrior tanking, most times. The hardest thing about the first is that phase 2 triggers bugs in some graphics drivers and DCs a few people.

[Aerath]

Nope, hits a feral just as hard, if not harder. Easier to kill him with a warrior tanking, most times. The hardest thing about the first is that phase 2 triggers bugs in some graphics drivers and DCs a few people.

Now yer being silly. Ferals might take more damage over the course of the fight, but less spike damage.

[moopy]

Now yer being silly. Ferals might take more damage over the course of the fight, but less spike damage.

"Easier to kill him with a warrior tanking" seems clear enough (leaving aside that fact that the dragon is probably a "her", judging by the voice). A feral is nice as one of the tanks on Brutallus, however.

[Aerath]

"Easier to kill him with a warrior tanking" seems clear enough (leaving aside that fact that the dragon is probably a "her", judging by the voice). A feral is nice as one of the tanks on Brutallus, however.

That's something else entirely. But Ferals take less big hits and have a larger healthpool to cope with it.

[moopy]

That's something else entirely. But Ferals take less big hits and have a larger healthpool to cope with it.

At the end of the day, that's not really stunningly fascinating. The important thing is how hard they are for their healers to keep alive for every ground phase without fail. Three healers on the tank, using around 2.5 second casts which crit at around 8-10k can keep a warrior alive much more easily than a druid. Frankly, the success or otherwise of the encounter interests me far more than class wars peening.

[rgirty]

At the end of the day, that's not really stunningly fascinating. The important thing is how hard they are for their healers to keep alive for every ground phase without fail. Three healers on the tank, using around 2.5 second casts which crit at around 8-10k can keep a warrior alive much more easily than a druid. Frankly, the success or otherwise of the encounter interests me far more than class wars peening.

At this stage of progression if your 2.5 hasn't been upgraded to 2.4 or even 2.3 or less you might think about getting some haste gear. For priests anyway.

I am a proponent of haste.

[Hydro]

Nope, hits a feral just as hard, if not harder. Easier to kill him with a warrior tanking, most times. The hardest thing about the first is that phase 2 triggers bugs in some graphics drivers and DCs a few people.

Your feral needs to re-evaluate his gear. He spikes a feral MUCH less hard than a warrior, at pretty much every phase of the fight. Hell, your warrior and raid needs to re-evaluate their gear and what debuffs you are using if he is regularly hitting your warrior tank for 14K. No armor debuff, no crushings, flat damage increase and slow attack speed is the optimal druid tanking fight, not too mention low armor. Either can tank it fine, the MT damage is pretty trivial in the scheme of things, but not using a feral is just silly.

Properly geared warrior tanks also take significantly less spike on Brutallus during stomps. Are your tanks trying to gear EH when they should be gearing Avoidance?

[moopy]

Your feral needs to re-evaluate his gear. He spikes a feral MUCH less hard than a warrior, at pretty much every phase of the fight.

No, I don't think they do, despite the whining from the peanut gallery. Bosses die very quickly and with great reliability. Absolutists who seem immune to shades of grey need not apply.

[YamahaGuy]

Any other guilds have serious DC problems in MH ? =/

I mean, the other night, *everyone* sent to deal with Gargs in the back got DC'd. And no on else. Then half those people got insta-DC'd each time they tried to log back in.

Infernal target from antheron got DC two times. Our tankadin got DC'ed in the middle of some trash waves.

I mean, its bad. And frequent. And abnormal. Sometimes on trash, usually the horde side, 2-3 people DC at once

[moopy]

Yeah, I remember my old guild having horrible DC problems in MH, when they were fine in other 25 man stuff. There are also some events which frequently DC people in Sunwell (just google for people having problems with DCs on Felmyst). Some folks swear by wiping wtf/cache clean (some also wiped interface), others blamed the instance servers.

Hard for me to say what it is though, since I don't (touch wood) have these problems. My machine is pretty fast, and I try and keep a good set of useful and workable addons etc.

[rgirty]

Any other guilds have serious DC problems in MH ? =/

I mean, the other night, *everyone* sent to deal with Gargs in the back got DC'd. And no on else. Then half those people got insta-DC'd each time they tried to log back in.

Infernal target from antheron got DC two times. Our tankadin got DC'ed in the middle of some trash waves.

I mean, its bad. And frequent. And abnormal. Sometimes on trash, usually the horde side, 2-3 people DC at once

Yep, when we first started hyjal we had the same issue. Folks cleaned out their wtf/addons folders removed or updated old addons and or lowered their graphics settings and we have no issues.

We downed the first couple bosses in there last night without a single DC>

The first week we were there we didn't get through a single wave without a dc.

[Shellar]

At this stage of progression if your 2.5 hasn't been upgraded to 2.4 or even 2.3 or less you might think about getting some haste gear. For priests anyway.

I am a proponent of haste.
Indeed, during the Felmyst encounter spellhaste is extremely valuable for priests of all specs. Casting Mass Dispel in 1.3 seconds instead of 1.5 can make a difference between a Gas Nova tick that gets through, and one that doesn't.

P.S. We finally managed to kill our Twins yesterday. :grin:

[rgirty]

Indeed, during the Felmyst encounter spellhaste is extremely valuable for priests of all specs. Casting Mass Dispel in 1.3 seconds instead of 1.5 can make a difference between a Gas Nova tick that gets through, and one that doesn't.

P.S. We finally managed to kill our Twins yesterday. :grin:

Moopy has me on ignore still, I forgot that before I replied.

We're not up to any twins but I think haste is still pretty useful.

[Hydro]

No, I don't think they do, despite the whining from the peanut gallery. Bosses die very quickly and with great reliability. Absolutists who seem immune to shades of grey need not apply.

There is no whining, druids and warriors have strengths on every boss.
ABSOLUTE facts without ANY chance of being wrong (what I am giving you) seem to be too much for you though.
I guess I won't give you advice, since you seem to be content with not maximizing your raid. Shades of Grey? Your the one that's refusing to look at it objectively.

As far as reliably killing the first 3 bosses, I hope you do, since they are no harder than SSC or TK bosses when those bosses were first revealed. The Twins are the first remotely mildly difficult boss, and even then should be only 2-3 shots each week. Hate to break it to you, but clearing Sunwell doesn't make you elite, it's a congratulations for clearing BT.
Retards that think killing a boss means you are doing it optimally (yes I know you can clearly kill Felmyst with a warrior tank) make me pretty angry.

[YamahaGuy]

I really tried to get the feral on for Algazor tonight, but alas I tanked it instead. We had a 'pot shot' at him tues, but got him downed tonight. Not a real fun one to tank. Our HoTs for silence was two priests. Heh heh.

Think all of our time spent today was on his trash. Honestly. Its hell. But its getting better. How many times tanks get insta-gibbed from being shot by 6 necros and 6 banshees. Sigh. Spell reflect ftw!

[Hydro]

I really tried to get the feral on for Algazor tonight, but alas I tanked it instead. We had a 'pot shot' at him tues, but got him downed tonight. Not a real fun one to tank. Our HoTs for silence was two priests. Heh heh.

Think all of our time spent today was on his trash. Honestly. Its hell. But its getting better. How many times tanks get insta-gibbed from being shot by 6 necros and 6 banshees. Sigh. Spell reflect ftw!

I just used shield wall when we did Hyjal on that pull, since we had the feral tank Azgalor after we realized how easy it was with a feral tank.

[Lobothomy]

Grounding totems ftw.

[moopy]

I really tried to get the feral on for Algazor tonight, but alas I tanked it instead. We had a 'pot shot' at him tues, but got him downed tonight. Not a real fun one to tank. Our HoTs for silence was two priests. Heh heh.

Think all of our time spent today was on his trash. Honestly. Its hell. But its getting better. How many times tanks get insta-gibbed from being shot by 6 necros and 6 banshees. Sigh. Spell reflect ftw!

Hmm, I think that's a wave where it's easier if you fall back to near Thrall, to let NPCs take the initial onslaught, just lets the raid get their ducks in a row- and avoids one poor tank being focus fired. Just call out on voice for the raid to fall back, and it's less stress on the tanks and healers. There's no shame in doing things the relaxing way :)

There is no whining, druids and warriors have strengths on every boss.

(snip tedious keening whine)

Retards that think killing a boss means you are doing it optimally (yes I know you can clearly kill Felmyst with a warrior tank) make me pretty angry.

Nice whiney ad-hom insults, kid. Even by your (low) standards, that was impressive.

[Mallstrop]

Our guild's not great at looking after the necromancers, only 2 mages along and the warlocks are damage hungry, that big wave kills 3-4 healers before they get around to controlling it.

[moopy]

Mall,

See above. Stuff that can work includes having shammies drop earth elementals to buy a little time. However, just have your raid fall back to the NPCs around thrall, let them pick that crap up for you, then your CC and tanks can peel the targets off safely (normally fearing and killing necros works better, as NPCs and sheep can be an issue). This means that healers/tanks don't get focus fired, and the only deaths will be the odd occasional over-nuking AoEr/melee as usual.

If it's any consolation, guilds that can clear MH in under two hours start to end usually treat that wave with respect :)

[Mallstrop]

I play a shaman and I'm generally needed at the front to help with the tank healing at the start of the waves before moving to chain heals on the rogues and any other raid healing duties. My grounding totem picks up the first wave of shadow bolts but the next one's generally enough to kill me.

There are a few factors that result in my death:
1. Cheating priests with fade
2. Cheating paladins with low threat heals
3. A low quality paladin tank (In my mind). We have a fair few off tanks to make up for this which spreads the healers pretty thinly.
4. I don't trust the other healers.
5. A lack of CC (Probably the biggest problem).

We still manage the waves and haven't wiped on trash yet, it'd just be nice if my job as the only Resto shaman in the guild was made easier.

[YamahaGuy]

Well typically, the tankadin is in the lead and rounds up, while us warriors are pulling individual aboms or whereever we can help relieve.

But the 6 necro pulls, or banshees has a different strat.

The very first wave, we just let the front NPC's take the hit. For other necro waves, healers focus on the warriors for this one, we stand up front, and pop spell reflect. Then melees and other classes move in. Works OK but sometimes I am running back. The second attack does hurt pretty bad while spell reflect on CD.

For necros in general, we have a 5 melee group. It works pretty well. One has assist to mark targets. They lock up and ownt necros like candy, from one to the next. On necro / banshee mixes, they move to the banshees because of the magical shield. One of them is an arms warrior. Through natural mechanics alone hes usually holding threat on the current one.

And our melees are comfortable with the waves now, so they have been kick/pummel the necro and pulling it into the aoe pile while they kill them. I'll grab a necro and do the same, counter it and pull it into the pile, then go get another

Mages sheep 2, and priests can shackle a couple banshees. I dont like CCing to many because after the rest of the mobs are all downed, theres lingering CC that needs to be killed when the timer is already short.

We have two resto shammies that pew pew the life 'into' the pile.

[Hydro]

Nice whiney ad-hom insults, kid. Even by your (low) standards, that was impressive.

Cronion - Druid Tank Felmyst Hits
Avg 1910 1910
Max 10658 10658

Sammyjankis Druid Tank Felmyst (No warrior in raid for imp demo)
Avg 3285 3285
Max 10351 10351

Martha - WARRIOR TANK
Avg 5401 5401
Max 12264 12264

Armina - WARRIOR TANK
Avg 4554 4554
Max 14181 14181


Those were the first parses I clicked on in WWS, randomly.

You are an idiot. You are probably in a guild filled with idiots. You can't do basic research to see basic facts and argue even the most universally accepted principles in WoW as far as tanking go.
Ignored, and I hope to god you get banned so you can't spread more misinformation and drivel.

[clevins]

Hydro? Go away. Moopy's a valued contributor here and you're just a foulmouthed punk who seems to think being in a cutting edge raiding guild means something.

[Hydro]

Hydro? Go away. Moopy's a valued contributor here and you're just a foulmouthed punk who seems to think being in a cutting edge raiding guild means something.

I've been around a lot longer than Moopy, and just browsing his post history I can tell you that most of what he is saying is unoptimized or flat wrong.
EVERYTHING on page 7 is wrong, and several other people called him on it as well. Being wrong and then saying that someone only sees in shades of grey because you refuse to admit a mistake is just being stupid.
Foulmouthed punk? Sure, I shouldn't have used the language I did, and I will edit it out, but nothing is worse than a self-righteous fool, which is all I see here.

[clevins]

Taunting someone for 'only' being on the Twins is... um... stupid though. How many guilds have killed them? 10? 20? 30? Hell, how many guilds are even in SP as a percentage of the guilds out there?

There's more than one way to do everything and simply because someone doesn't min/max or doesn't min/max according to your strat does not make them idiots.

[Hydro]

Taunting someone for 'only' being on the Twins is... um... stupid though. How many guilds have killed them? 10? 20? 30? Hell, how many guilds are even in SP as a percentage of the guilds out there?

There's more than one way to do everything and simply because someone doesn't min/max or doesn't min/max according to your strat does not make them idiots. Grow up.

He's bragging about being amazing, and arguing with the direct fact that druids take less damage on Felmyst. Page 7 is why I've always found Moopy to be useless, and just another average player in a decent guild filled with hot air.
"TRY FELMYST, WARRIORS GET HIT FOR 14K!!!!@!@@!!@"
"Uh use a Feral"
"LOL NUB WARRIORS R EASIER 2 HEAL"

That was the gist of the conversation. Yea, I took out the useless taunting, but either way, WoW raid success is just raid comp, available members, and knowing how game mechanics work. He's failing hard at the last part, and that might explain, in part, not killing the twins in the first couple of nights.

[YamahaGuy]

You know, endgamers with the level of Moopy and Hydro are pretty rare around here. I think I know of 3 or 4 on these boards. Its nice to have multiple inputs for us up-and-coming types. Hell, its nice to even see a response sometimes, even if it was 3 days later.

I would be a shame if we had less than we already do. And there wouldnt be much reason to come here anymore if we knew those people were no longer gonna comment on our topics or be there to converse with =(

[moopy]

"TRY FELMYST, WARRIORS GET HIT FOR 14K!!!!@!@@!!@"
"Uh use a Feral"
"LOL NUB WARRIORS R EASIER 2 HEAL".

You have some insecurity and interaction issues, clearly. Good luck resolving them.

[Twoflower]

Hydro? Go away. Moopy's a valued contributor here and you're just a foulmouthed punk who seems to think being in a cutting edge raiding guild means something.

go read the warrior forums sometimes, and maybe the tanking stickies. hydro has done alot of work in this forum over the years. dont you taunt him like that please.

and moopy, try for once to make some real conversation, not just your flaming. Maybe you will even learn something :P

and all of you, calm down.

[moopy]

and moopy, try for once to make some real conversation, not just your flaming. Maybe you will even learn something :P

flowers,

With the best will in the world, screaming pottymouths don't strike me as the finest educational opportunity going. I am hoping that the thread will get back on track when he's done bawling and stamping.

[YamahaGuy]

...

Does anyone have a blank / arial view of Archimonds turf?

Or... can get one? :D

[Twoflower]

flowers,

With the best will in the world, screaming pottymouths don't strike me as the finest educational opportunity going. I am hoping that the thread will get back on track when he's done bawling and stamping.

a valid point is a valid point, no matter if you like the poster or not, and no matter how he said it.

we both know hydro long enugh to know that he knows what he is talking about.

[moopy]

YG,

I don't, but a bit of searching around might find one- bosskillers? EJ? Does cartographer have one?

Anyway, you can avoid needing one, just rehearse positions before the pull, with a hunter pet or something in the middle as the boss. Most folks just set relative positions anyway- as groups are quite mobile during the fight. If people know which side of the boss to go, and you know where you're tanking, it's all good.

Oh, other useful hint for archi- mark one person in each self-sufficient group, so they can spot the fires and lead the group to safety. Sounds like babysitting, but it's really helpful.

a valid point is a valid point, no matter if you like the poster or not, and no matter how he said it.

we both know hydro long enugh to know that he knows what he is talking about.

Sorry, but abuse-hurling capslock hammering, with apparent anger control issues invalidates it totally. Frankly, I think he's a dick, and shall be gladly making him the second person on my ignore list for the sake of harmony.

[YamahaGuy]

Gonna start with the four points strategy (four groups, giant square) around em. A decurser raid assistant, shaman, group healer, MT healer each.

Then ofc, the melee group behind.

It would be easier if had a map >.<

Take him in the center of the brush, so the log offers two groups some assistance. I read alot bout this 'stump' for melees. The stump humping video was anything but impressive.

[Twoflower]

yamahaGuy, just give every decurser you have a raid symbol. make sure that they spread out enugh around archi. then it is the responsability of each and every raid member to be near a decurser at all time. We usualy assign one decurser for north, east, south and west of archi and the rest has to look for themselfs.

during the entire fight, you have to be very mobile. positions will change all the time. i normaly spend more time running from fire and decursing than actualy standing still and doing damage.

no system whatsoever will take the responsability off of each and every raid member. they have to think for themselfs.

moopy : ignore all you want :) Huxley once said that ignorance does not change the facts. If you choose your pride over listening to other people, you have to live with it in the end.

good luck to both of you :)

[YamahaGuy]

Aye, well with the "four corners" method the group moves as a unit, following their assistant (decurser, with raid icon on their head). From what I've read, we've got a good overall makeup for this fight; we can put shamans in almost all groups plus decursers galore. We also have strong DPS melee group; with a blend of different classes / specs that compliment

[Aerath]

Make sure the decursers know that decursing comes first, second, third and fourth. DPS might come somewhere around the 120th spot of importance on that fight.

You wouldn't believe the amount of numb-nuts who 'just wanted to finish casting that frostbolt'.

[YamahaGuy]

Im curious why it seems almost every guild currently doing Archimonde on our realm skipped him for so long. They went 4 or 5 in BT before doing archimonde. Honestly it doesnt look like a 'gear' fight although it always helps but really its just composition, strategy and practice, right? Is he a "waste of time" ? Progressionaly he doesnt seem like a waste at all. His loots are big ups for a lot of people and hes a good kill.

[rgirty]

Im curious why it seems almost every guild currently doing Archimonde on our realm skipped him for so long. They went 4 or 5 in BT before doing archimonde. Honestly it doesnt look like a 'gear' fight although it always helps but really its just composition, strategy and practice, right? Is he a "waste of time" ? Progressionaly he doesnt seem like a waste at all. His loots are big ups for a lot of people and hes a good kill.

Because its even easier to kill him once you have loot from the first 3/4 bosses in BT.

Have you cleared to archimonde already yamaha?

Our guild is still on azgolar, we took a break for a week and have had some people out but are getting back on it this week I think.

[YamahaGuy]

Well, we stepped foot in Hyjal first time last sunday, downed rage and antheron. Monday we downed Kaz, and had a brief run-in the azhalor. So Tuesday, we did Rage/Antheron/Kaz, and downed Azgalor wednesday. Then this past sunday we downed Najentus, but not supremus. Problems with the hateful strike / free-for-all healing =(

[Aerath]

Because, quite frankly, he's a retard check, bigger than Lurker ever was.

4/5 & 3/9 is far easier than 5/5.

Teron is another retard check and roughly to the same magnitude of Archimonde.

[YamahaGuy]

Im not so fustrated when people make mistakes learning, its things like messing up thaladred phase 3 that we've practiced 9999 times that are really upsetting. And when it happens, lot of people joke around about it. Go to the combat log and laugh about how much they were hit for. Or yet another impersonation on vent

But to me its not funny at all. Its a waste of time, waste of an attempt, and we have to do it all from start - again - for some nubbish mistake. Whats funny about that?

[Twoflower]

because even though the entire Hyjal instance is easy, the first 3 bosses in BT are even easier.

and yes, archi is a retard check, and many guilds seem to be scared of that ^^

[Trakamoocow]

/Agree with Aerath, i've lead a few casual raids, and it's painful. Even guild groups, having to say 'and you too' so many times. "Okay guys, when this storms about to hit, EVERYONE collapse to the tank'. 'Yo, warlock, you too. Still you. No really, collapse. Stop casting!!! Fk it, everyone under the warlock he's the sto... ah nm, wipe it'.

I tried the being nice approach, it generally doesn't work. Unless you check people, quickly, they just continue to stuff up. All the gear in the world does not a competent raider create. And im sure you guys have had the same... Someone can be a great person, cool to chat to, but just don't get raiding at all. Circle of heal spamming, flash healing, oom-in-ten-seconds nub, i-stealth-sap-every-mob-without-being-asked rogue, felguard warlock (charging the tank target before he does edition), what-do-you-mean-whirlwind-breaks-mez warrior, the list goes on.

And feel yer pain yam, 9% on a bossfight, people get all omgalmostthere'y, don't do what they're meant too, boom, die, tee hee ooh aah. "Uh guys, we had that ****, that was the tenth wipe, for the exact same reason".

I'm yet to get in a guild where everyone was on the ball most of the time. It's always half the raid carrying the other half kicking and screaming into instances.

[Hydro]

flowers,

With the best will in the world, screaming pottymouths don't strike me as the finest educational opportunity going. I am hoping that the thread will get back on track when he's done bawling and stamping.


I'll gladly apologize when you show me where anything I said was a whine, versus being raw, proven and backed up fact. I helped write and contribute to the best warrior tanking guide on the internet on the EJ forums, and have been asked direct advice from Tom Chilton and other developers via PM for warrior tanking and arms talent synergies on WoTLK. I understand completely the limitations and strengths of every tanking class and I use them in my raids. That isn't whining, it's smart play, but meh, you clearly can't see that. This is my last post on the topic.

[Cerberus]

We've killed Archi, but still struggling with repeating it. Someone came up with the idea of running over to Archis spot before killing Azgalor and do some practice. It's still hard to get healers to understand that staying behind to throw an extra heal doesn't make things better when you end up getting doomfire on the melee and tank and then make it chase a new group..

[Hydro]

We've killed Archi, but still struggling with repeating it. Someone came up with the idea of running over to Archis spot before killing Azgalor and do some practice. It's still hard to get healers to understand that staying behind to throw an extra heal doesn't make things better when you end up getting doomfire on the melee and tank and then make it chase a new group..

Having set groups like that always helps, but there is no way to really explain Doomfire or deal with Doomfire without just a lot of practice :(
Repeat kills may be hard for a while, but every one gets easier.

[EdvinMedvind]

We actually killed 6 bosses in BT before killing archi because people were being so stupid there. What fight is harder really depends on the strengths and weaknesses of your guild.

Also Vashj went down pretty quickly for us but Kael.....

[Shellar]

Think all of our time spent today was on his trash. Honestly. Its hell. But its getting better. How many times tanks get insta-gibbed from being shot by 6 necros and 6 banshees. Sigh. Spell reflect ftw!
1. On the previous wave, drag as many friendly NPCs as you can to the gate.
2. Banish 1 or 2 felpuppies from that wave.
3. Keep them permabanished to prevent NPCs from killing them and running back to their posts, and wait for wave timer to expire.
4. When the 6-6 Wave of Doom comes, let them be greeted by the meatshield composed of two dozen NPCs, including Thrall and his wolves.
5. Profit.
6. There is no ????, only cake.

[YamahaGuy]

We cleared all 4 last night in 2.5 hours. For the 6 necro 6 banshee pull we moved the two prot warriors in first, instead of the tankadin. Spell reflected the initial blast and kept spamming spell reflect whenever it was off cooldown. Mages sheeped a couple and priests shackled a couple.

Told the melees to work banshees first because of the anti magic shield. We have an unsalved arms warrior in the group with assist. He marks the next melee target and dps-tanks necros / banshees. It works really well. I just check him periodically to make sure he doesnt have more than a couple on him at a time or an abomination etc.

Last few times we went, we had 4 tanks on trash (2 warriors, two tankadin, or one feral etc) but last night we had 3. Two prot warriors, one tankadin. Well, plus the arms-warrior-tank lol

We want Archimonde.

Shellar I liked your other ava.

[Shellar]

Shellar I liked your other ava.
I'm all out of candy at the moment. :sad:

(I do have a new razorblade, however)

[Trakamoocow]

flowers,

With the best will in the world, screaming pottymouths don't strike me as the finest educational opportunity going. I am hoping that the thread will get back on track when he's done bawling and stamping.

I didn't see his original content before it was fixt. However.

He was abrupt, but to the point on the realities of the fight. You flat told him he was wrong (from your 'feeling' and 'sense' and other uh, definitive logic on the argument). He gave you flat stats, reality, how it actually works, and you sit there tut tutting him to save face and recover your position somehow. Dismount from the high horse and come back down with the peasants some time.

Not everyone has your super hugs hi5s my little pony online view of the world, some people will call you down harshly if you act a douche. Assuming your superiority to everyone that does so, tut tutting your way through the argument as if it vindicates you is as if not more childish that you're accusing him of being.

/2c

[EdvinMedvind]

That's why I like EJ forums. If someone writes nonsense they get an infraction/temp ban or at least gets ridiculed.

[Oatmealsmurf]

because even though the entire Hyjal instance is easy, the first 3 bosses in BT are even easier.

and yes, archi is a retard check, and many guilds seem to be scared of that ^^

Pretty much this right here. Archimonde is an execution fight and when one person screws up it will often start a domino effect because of the soul charges. It took us a lot more attempts to kill Archimonde than it did for Illidan because of that simple difference. And our 2nd Illidan kill was a one shot. You can have a couple people who don't pay attention on most fights. And you can even hide and pray on Teron for instance and sneak through without getting picked for constructs... but sooner or later on Archimonde you're going to get airburst, if you're a decurser you're likely going to have someone get gripped and you be the only one in range because of fears or you're going to have a doomfire towards you. If you crater or something you're likely going to kill someone else as well. And it gets frustrating.

I've seen some just stupid stuff on Archimonde... finishing casts when doomfire is headed towards them... only to get doomfire and then airbursted or feared. Mages or Priests who crater from airburst when there is no excuse because they have slow fall/levitate. I suspect a lot of guilds would actually be to Illidan before killilng Archimonde if it weren't for the gigantic reist gear roadblock that is Mother.

[Cerberus]

We're actually fine with all aspects of Archi exept for doomfire which leads to tank death or melee getting it. People just don't get how it works and lead it back to the raid so more people have to run. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the practice without archi works out.

[EdvinMedvind]

On fights like Archi and Kael you're really not stronger than your weakest link, and I think that's why we've struggled so much on those fights. I wish it was easy to recruit but as it is we really don't have the luxury of picking and choosing who makes the raid setup.

[Aerath]

On fights like Archi and Kael you're really not stronger than your weakest link, and I think that's why we've struggled so much on those fights. I wish it was easy to recruit but as it is we really don't have the luxury of picking and choosing who makes the raid setup.

Even on Kael'thas half the raid can be muppets.

There's a number of vital jobs, but as long as you give those to people you know do well you'll be fine. If your MT is too daft to step out of flamestrikes then ye... you might have a problem.

[EdvinMedvind]

Even on Kael'thas half the raid can be muppets.

There's a number of vital jobs, but as long as you give those to people you know do well you'll be fine. If your MT is too daft to step out of flamestrikes then ye... you might have a problem.
Half the raid can be muppets on Kael if you're lucky about who's getting gazed upon. :P Same with Teron and that ghost thing.

[Aerath]

With Kael it doesn't matter if that guy dies by not running from Thaladred.

With Teron it does matter if that guy lets constructs run loose in the raid.

Similarly, with Archimonde, it does matter if that guy constantly craters.

[Shellar]

M'uru is a royal pain, but at least his trash is reasonable.

[YamahaGuy]

Half the raid can be muppets on Kael if you're lucky about who's getting gazed upon. :P Same with Teron and that ghost thing.

IMO not really, if you lose 2-3 ranged DPS from a nubbed up thaladred in 3 cuz a kiter died and others were bit too close or something then your gonna be short guns for 4, troubles getting the shield down or whatnot... or one person messes up and take him over to the melee pack on the eng and dies or w.e... You know, a million things can go wrong

even if you dont, maybe you lost a staff buffer for the MT group or the melee group... then you switch someone to BE in the group to replace the staff buffer and they havnt been with the MTs group before and dont stand close enough or something happens etc etc

if you lose two healers phase 4+5 could really suck, you never know. I just encourage that everynoe needs to make it to PH4 alive... sometimes we lose a person but that still works; enforce survival imo. If you can get to 5 with 20+ people alive its in the bag.

Just imo.

[Aerath]

If you can get to 5 with 20+ people alive its in the bag.

Exactly. You don't have that luxury on Teron or Archimonde. You can't lose 4-5 people there.

[YamahaGuy]

Exactly. You don't have that luxury on Teron or Archimonde. You can't lose 4-5 people there.

True that. We had one night of archimonde more or less an introduction put a couple hours into it; jumping practice etc

What I dont like is, its REALLY hard to practice that fight because its over in 45 seconds seriously =( so its not like other fights where you can 'ride it out' and get practice in even if its botched a bit

But I suppose, if you FIX the reasons that end it 45 seconds, then you've won. And his health goes down real easy. We had a real nice attempt goin good and smooth then someone cratered and the chain of bad things began. Sigh lol

[Shellar]

*barely restrains the urge to bang his head against the keyboard*

Take Vashj's second phase. Replace the elementals with extremely fast elites that one-shot clothies in a single hit. Put striders on a 20 second spawn timer. Make each strider split into 8 Aquatic Spawns from BT sewers upon death. Then pack the entire encounter into Shade of Aran's room and cover a half of it with a voidzone.

That's the M'uru fight.

[Aerath]

*barely restrains the urge to bang his head against the keyboard*

Take Vashj's second phase. Replace the elementals with extremely fast elites that one-shot clothies in a single hit. Put striders on a 20 second spawn timer. Make each strider split into 8 Aquatic Spawns from BT sewers upon death. Then pack the entire encounter into Shade of Aran's room and cover a half of it with a voidzone.

That's the M'uru fight.

Sounds like fun. :thumbsup:

[Shellar]

Oh yes. And that's just phase 1.

[Malentra]

Exactly. You don't have that luxury on Teron or Archimonde. You can't lose 4-5 people there.

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but you do have the luxury of bringing less than a full 25-man raid to Archimonde to avoid bringing a doomfire-dyslexic. We've done cleaner-than-usual kills with less than 25 some nights. As long as your not losing an important healer or decurser. On Teron though, every bit of dps matters.

Regarding other points of discussion, Muru scares me. o.O I'm glad we're not near there yet.

[Hydro]

Oh yes. And that's just phase 1.

Phase 2 is the hard part.

[YamahaGuy]

Working archimonde now :D had an introduction night, and then one serious night of attempts.

We are using a "four corners" strategy where the entire group runs if fire comes toward their corner. Each group has a healer, a decurser, a shaman and a couple DPS. Melee group in the center has an enh shaman and a druid healing and decursing. All five decursers have a symbol on their head

Fear isnt our problem really because we have shaman. And for the most part they are doing really good on fire. It got cleaner the more attempts we did. But we have seriously bad luck with grip+burst. Either the grip target got air busted, or the decurser for that group got bursted. Either way someone dies from grip.

It happens to a random group all the time. I think thats the flaw behind the "four corners" method. If the raid was just spread around the boss like usual, another decurser could help the person out. The advantage to 'four corners' is it makes fire really simple.

Its rough because we botch attempts enough ourselves from dumb mistakes, like getting the MT air bursted or blatantly not seeing a grip.... but I am not sure how to address grip+burts messing things up. We had some real nice attempts in there but something like this would occur.

[Twoflower]

i am no fan of the group thing.

more people have to move than necessary. entire groups get airburst instead of single targets.

everybody should be able to do his raid function, avoid fire and stay near a decurser on his own.

[YamahaGuy]

Within their 4 groups they spread out enough only 1, at most 2 get bursted typically. For us, its working very well. Just the problem of grip+burst im not sure how to resolve. That might be because of the groups, or the fact we have 5 decurser only (1 per.)

[Malentra]

I don't know how many know this but mages can bypass air bursts, and are therefore your best decursers for the fight. If air burst, a mage just has to blink and he instanty appears back on the ground where he was. With good reflexes you don't even move at all. This has had a 100% success rate for us. Also I watch to see if people are burst and blink out to get them.

In 5 weeks of Archimonde the only time we've had people die from grips is because someone didn't run from the fire (almost always a overly-responsible healer) and got cut off from their decurser. Again this is where mages come in handy cause they can blink through doomfire and also Ice Block it off.

We run Archi with 3 mages and 3 non-feral druids, making it the curses very manageable.

Another tactic we employ: we don't do four "corners" but four groups in an arc; we hold archimonde near the hill and spread out in a 270 degree arc around him, keeping everyone closer together and allowing for more cross-decursing and healing. Our raid leader makes sure decursers are spread pretty evenly around the arc, and groups stick close to their shaman for tremor totem instead of worrying about the decursers.

[Shellar]

Phase 2 is the hard part.
After a couple more weeks' worth of wipes, I'd say that the hardest part is the transition from phase 1 to phase 2.