ZA timer frustration

[Mirinda]

I'm in my guild's third group to do ZA. In three trips, we have progressed through Nalorakk, Akil'zon and Halazzi. We even one-shot Halazzi on our first try. Group composition:

Warrior main tank
Pally off tank
Pally, shaman and druid healers
Fire mage, destro lock, combat rogue and two hunters for DPS.

I (the mage) and the hunters usually vie for the top of the damage meter (include their pets and I'm battling for second).

We have yet, though, to avoid a wipe on the first boss, thereby losing a shot at the timed event loot bonuses. It's almost as though we have to get that out of the way before we play well.

The first boss we take on is Akil'zon, on the (so far mistaken) impression that he'd be the quickest start and put us on the best path. Has taken us several tries per run to get it right.

Last night more of the same, but then we one-shotted Nalorakk and Halazzi.

Our group's tank-switching coordination was superb, and the pally is a terrific main tank healer. DPS output is plenty enough. It's my impression that, as well as we do at times, it is strange that we have so much trouble getting started.

Does anyone have any pointers?

[rgirty]

What's wiping you on the way to akilzon?

[Mirinda]

We have the trash down, just tend to lose a healer on the boss, and that's that.

Late in the battle, when the healing needs to be spread out more and more, we've lost the tank a couple of times.

And there's the times when somebody doesn't get back to the group during the storm and coincidentally happens to be the one pulled into the air.

If we have our lock, he seeds the birds to keep their numbers down. Without a lock, we focus on the boss and try to ignore the birds. With the combination of the boss's lightning and the birds that can do up to 1,500 on cloth, Akil'zon requires clothies to either gear up stamina for the fight, or rely on luck.

[rgirty]

We have the trash down, just tend to lose a healer on the boss, and that's that.

Late in the battle, when the healing needs to be spread out more and more, we've lost the tank a couple of times.

And there's the times when somebody doesn't get back to the group during the storm and coincidentally happens to be the one pulled into the air.

If we have our lock, he seeds the birds to keep their numbers down. Without a lock, we focus on the boss and try to ignore the birds. With the combination of the boss's lightning and the birds that can do up to 1,500 on cloth, Akil'zon requires clothies to either gear up stamina for the fight, or rely on luck.

Sounds like you need more gear for this. If your having problems keeping people alive during akilzon you probably need to spread people out and keep healers on their toes.

Akilzon is typically the 1 boss that can wipe our group in za (prior to ZJ) he's tougher for us than hex lord or any other boss.

[clevins]

On him we all gather in a tight circle around the rectangle he's standing in. Tank him where he stands. When storm starts, everyone is, by definition, close to each other so we collapse, get under cloud, wait, spread back out.

[Mirinda]

Sounds like you need more gear for this. If your having problems keeping people alive during akilzon you probably need to spread people out and keep healers on their toes.

Akilzon is typically the 1 boss that can wipe our group in za (prior to ZJ) he's tougher for us than hex lord or any other boss.

Interesting. And we were starting (at the behest of guild leaders) with Akil'Zon assuming it was the easiest path on the timer race. Hmmm. Well, when we get this down we ought to be pretty solid.

I really don't know who'd be falling down on gear. I (fire mage) wear PVP stuff against Akil'Zon, get to 10K health buffed. Spellfire/spellstrike left me feeling like I was in a wet T-shirt contest. Spriest = 9,600 health buffed, resto druid's at 8,300, lock's 10,100 unbuffed. The resto shaman's at 7,500 unbuffed, probably iffy. Did have to sub in a holy priest with 7,700 unbuffed one run.

Main tank warrior has 14,600 hp unbuffed, 17,600 armor, 517 defense, 25% dodge and 19% block. Offtank prot pally has 14,100 hp unbuffed, 15,800 armor, 510 defense, 19% dodge and 15% block.

[rgirty]

Interesting. And we were starting (at the behest of guild leaders) with Akil'Zon assuming it was the easiest path on the timer race. Hmmm. Well, when we get this down we ought to be pretty solid.

I really don't know who'd be falling down on gear. I (fire mage) wear PVP stuff against Akil'Zon, get to 10K health buffed. Spellfire/spellstrike left me feeling like I was in a wet T-shirt contest. Spriest = 9,600 health buffed, resto druid's at 8,300, lock's 10,100 unbuffed. The resto shaman's at 7,500 unbuffed, probably iffy. Did have to sub in a holy priest with 7,700 unbuffed one run.

Main tank warrior has 14,600 hp unbuffed, 17,600 armor, 517 defense, 25% dodge and 19% block. Offtank prot pally has 14,100 hp unbuffed, 15,800 armor, 510 defense, 19% dodge and 15% block.

He is the right boss to start on if your pressing hard for 3 chests.

If you want to get at least the first timed chest, do the bear first.

Start getting akilzon down without wipes then change methods.

[clevins]

Also if people get caught/stay out in the storm it really almost doesn't matter about gear level - you'll die.

Ranged has a natural tendency to stay at a distance from the boss, but there's no advantage to doing so on this fight. IN fact, since the storm appears over the person farthest away, having people spread out is a disadvantage.

[rottentomato]

stay on the square, and on vent have someone turn their ambient sound ALLLLL the way up...as soon as the storm starts, collapse...this helps avoid bugged timers on DBM and Bigwigs...you should be shooting to down him in about 5 minutes tops to keep the timers relatively easy to maintain practice wise... if you get to him with about 8 minutes left, youre doing great to allow for a battle rez if one of your healers happens to drop...

a good site with ideal stats for first time entry into za (buffed) is
http://www.worldofmatticus.com/2008/01/11/minimum-class-stat-requirements-for-zulaman/


also on a side note...you should be bringing a priest in with imp PW:Fort for obvious reasons...it should add a boost to the health of the ones that have difficulties

[Pongle]

Go straight to the bear, if your dps is any good it's a fairly achievable timer.

[frimley]

He is the right boss to start on if your pressing hard for 3 chests.

We always start with the bear, and usually get 3 chests. What's the thinking behind starting with Akil'zon for the timed run?

[Mirinda]

I really don't know why Akil'zon, and I think it's a tough one to get warmed up on.

[rgirty]

We always start with the bear, and usually get 3 chests. What's the thinking behind starting with Akil'zon for the timed run?

Killing akilzon is really fast if you one shot him. Lower dps groups have a hard time mowing everything down on the way to the bear.

I've never gotten three chests tho, only two. It is always a close race if we do the bear first with just getting the bear chest. If we do akilzon first its very easy to get the first two.

We can even wipe on akilzon and get the first two.

[Tanalin]

On him we all gather in a tight circle around the rectangle he's standing in. Tank him where he stands. When storm starts, everyone is, by definition, close to each other so we collapse, get under cloud, wait, spread back out.

We do this also. Ranged spread out all the way around him (determine spots prior) and collapse on the tank and boss when someone calls the storm. The timer is messed so if you look on the enrage timer and figure when 45 seconds will be to call the next one. Or have someone only using Ambient volume listen for the storm and call it.

Cake as long as everyone gets under the storm cloud. If you miss a storm call, make sure everyone knows to get in the vicinity of the black shadow on the floor so they avoid the damage.

[rgirty]

We use the ambient sound as it works 100% of the time.

[Cerberus]

The reason to go Akil'zon first is to skip the extra run back and forth. Akil'zon, nalorakk (avoid the pat at the bottom of the stairs on the way back), Dragonhawk, Lynx. Once dragonhawk is dead you simply jump down on the other side of his spot and have Lynx in front of you.

Try taking out an entire side with eggs in one go at dragonhawk. It's really not that hard. A paladin helps a ton ofc and even a holy pala should do. Just make sure you don't bunch in front of the eggplace.

[Mirinda]

With the ambient sound what exactly do you hear?

[rottentomato]

a storm 10 chars

[EvilShocker]

The above posts are correct, its best to stand around in a rectangle with ambient sounds up and run to the center when its about time for storm. Akilzon is the best way to go in terms of timed event, less running. Once the boss is down, do not loot the chest, just go to the next boss and once the timed event expires, go back to loot the chest.
Our group which consists of SCC/badge gear/kara usually gets 3 chests consistently get 3 chests with around 10 minutes left on the timer. For dragonhawk boss, have the pally OT tank the whole side each and aoe down each side individually. It is also helpful that once the pally OT gets geared enough to become the MT, since he can tank multiple mobs easier and the warrior can just DPS, which will add significant time to the event.

[Mirinda]

We did it again, one wipe then easy kill of Akil'Zon. It's a tradition.

Every time, we lose the tank or healer (I hate priests) very late in the game. Like we have to get warmed up first. Not having problems with the storms.

[rgirty]

We did it again, one wipe then easy kill of Akil'Zon. It's a tradition.

Every time, we lose the tank or healer (I hate priests) very late in the game. Like we have to get warmed up first. Not having problems with the storms.

Why do you hate priests? Give me the armory link of your priest. First i'll look at that.

If that looks adequate i'll give you some tips to give him.

[clevins]

So how are you losing them? How many healers do you take? Why the comment re priests?

[Mirinda]

We have three heals for 10-man, and I'd gotten used to pally/shaman/druid. Many of the 5- and 10-man wipes I've been in lately have been due to a holy spec priest dying. They have been getting knocked out early in 25-man too. They have trouble managing aggro and don't have the survival options of other classes. Moreover, they haven't taken any of the damage mitigation talents of holy or discipline. They're typical holy priests, fighting to keep up with other healers and speccing all the healing talents they can get.

[clevins]

Ah.... never specced holy, but yeah, taking no aggro talents is silly. I've seen holy priests heal as well as any healer when they gear and spec well (assuming they're well played). Question - do your healers compete on meters? Healing meters are particularly silly IMO but I've seen people do some silly things to top the meters esp if raids are staffed according to meters.

The thing to get across to them is that dead healers = no heals so speccing some threat reduction (or managing threat in some other way) is critical.

[Mirinda]

They do spec threat reduction but not damage mitigation. Holy and discipline have numerous ways to reduce damage taken, or to heal back some of the damage.

Yes they do compete on the meters, which doesn't make sense when somebody's job is to overheal the tank vs. others healing raid.

[rgirty]

They do spec threat reduction but not damage mitigation. Holy and discipline have numerous ways to reduce damage taken, or to heal back some of the damage.

Yes they do compete on the meters, which doesn't make sense when somebody's job is to overheal the tank vs. others healing raid.

My spec is optimal for za/end t5/MH raiding.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Maelstrom&n=Girty

I'm not sure whats wrong with your priests but they should have the aggro reducing talent. If they are having aggro issues they should get the meta I have as well as the threat reduction enchant to cloak.

You don't need spell warding, etc for raiding. If someone is having trouble staying alive they are likely in full tailored gear or other healin gear that offers little or no stam.

If your healers aren't around 10K hp when full raid buffed they are goin to suffer this problem.

I suffered this problem when we first started doing leo/vashj I simply didn't have enough stam and had to change some gear around.

Convince them to get the vindicator neck piece as it provides a healthy amount of stam and is a great piece. Also look at the rest of their gear and find out if they are wearing pieces such as the ring from prince that has 0 stam.

IF your priests are running 7-8khp when buffed you have an issue.

I'd be glad to help you out if you would link an armory or two.

BTW i've healed through zul-jin and i'm usually the last one to die, they also may not understand the binding heal reduced threat mechanic or even remember to use the spell.

[Mirinda]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Verad

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Goodentight

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Sen%27jin&n=Nyya

[thulzadoom]

I thought the consensus was for bear runs to only have 2 healers?

[Mirinda]

BTW these are the three holy priests in our guild. They don't always raid together, and certainly not on the same ZA group.

[rgirty]

Verad:

Problems:

He has 5 green gems in epic pieces of gear. This is a cardinal sin.

He has 3 pieces of gear with 0 stam, and just as I guessed one of them
is the too often used prince ring drop.

His spec is also just a little off.

He'd be better off to go 20/41 and not 19/42 he has 3/3 HC and would have
to lower that to 2/3 in order to go 5/5 MA.

5/5 MA would ultimately lead to more mana conservation than 3/3 HC.

Convince him of that and it'll help some.

Talk him into getting at least blue gems for his gear.

Talk him into a t4 helm rather than the whitemend.

Get him to change the prince ring.

If he would wear a pvp ring and the t4 helm with kings he would see
about a 700HP increase.

He has 6.7k health that isn't enough for za.

Goodentight (i wake up each morning glad i'm on an RP server when I think of names like this)

He has t5 shoulders and likes them so much he has a green gem in them.

He has 4 green gems in epic gear, as i said before thats a no no.

Tell him to put boar's speed on his boots or +12 stam, also he seems to be missing
a head enchant.

Boar's speed will get him up to about 7.3k hp.

He would do well to replace the band of halos.

He would also be well served to get the carved witch doctor's stick.

It gives more heal (with the right gem) and more stam.

With boar's speed and the wand he'd see 7.5k hp which is good.

Nyya:

She has 4 pieces of gear with 0 stam.

The neck is ok, but I would recommend replacing it with a vindicators.

The back piece has got to go. Get kharma's or the one from prince.

+12 stam for her boots would help, a new ring to replace the witches band as well.



Basically have all your priests get out of whitemend.

Replace those helms with t4.

Look for replacements for items with 0 stam, the pmc robe is ok the benefits
outweigh the 0 stam but other items can be replaced.

Also have them replace their green gems with blue ones.

A lot of priests and players of all classes are replacing their blue
gems with epic gems as the badge vendor opens.

You really have to get your people out of their green gems, that isn't good.


Those things will really help, but IMO they are undergeared for za.

+1850 heal 7.5khp unbuffed and 200mp5 is what i'd recommend for a full
clear through ZJ that of course depends on the rest of the group but IMO
you need that to pull your own weight.

[Cantthinkofaname]

My guild just got 4 timers a few days ago. We have not set foot in a t6 instance. We went Eagle -> Bear -> DH -> Lynx.

2 Healers- Priest and Pally
1 SPriest
Pally Tank w/ healing gear
Warrior MT

For eagle, we tank him in the back left corner from the stairs, We then split ranged and healers into 3 groups for the other 3 corners. The storm usually goes to the front right corner. Just get your stam up and you should be fine.

[moopy]

One thing that I've noticed about successful bear runs is that it's really easy to push the speed with a few melee DPS (maybe arms warrior, enhancement shammy and rogue). You'll obviously need some other DPS, a hunter and mage/warlock works well, but stacking melee (especially ones that bring useful buffs) helps hugely.

A feral druid is really nice for getting through the gauntlet quickly too- a warrior/druid combo for tanking works really well.

Watch some sucessful timed run videos, look at the route and boss selection. A lot of time is lost simply getting to bosses. Be prepared to make a few unsucessful attempts before you have the mix and route down. Get everyone to pot up/eat buff foods, and try and avoid deaths.

Oh, and have fun :)

[Cantthinkofaname]

One thing I forgot to mention, before we even hit the gong, we sat in the first room and planned out exactly what we were going to do for each boss. So, when we got to that boss, every knew their role. Also, have it on group loot and don't loot until the end, that saves lots of time.

http://wowwebstats.com/eyclp3yfq5zua
Our WWS Log for the run.

[rgirty]

One thing I forgot to mention, before we even hit the gong, we sat in the first room and planned out exactly what we were going to do for each boss. So, when we got to that boss, every knew their role. Also, have it on group loot and don't loot until the end, that saves lots of time.

http://wowwebstats.com/eyclp3yfq5zua
Our WWS Log for the run.

What do you mean, you sat in the first boss room?

[Aerath]

What do you mean, you sat in the first boss room?

I'd hazard a guess they're talking about the room containing the gong that opens the doors.

[YamahaGuy]

We do eagle---->bear---->hawk. We havnt gotton a third chest =/ our prisoner died at 5% boss health. Very sad. The reason we dont make the timed run is because we dont one-shot drawgonhawk often.

We havnt taken the pally tank because of the other bosses though. Less we take 3 tanks? I dont know. we have a lot of prot warriors. The whole 'take druid' thing is kinda impossible for us most ZA runs.

We also listen for the storm sound on eagle. We havnt wiped on him a long time. Last time we did, it was because we had someone who never been there before and he didnt quite understand.


LOL I agree with Mirinda.

Our holy priests bite it left and right.

Halazi cat dodged shield slam? Sometimes... didnt?
Halazi totem managed 2 bolts before being killed?
Hex lord CC broke during spirit bolts so took a second to redo?
..even tho you pre-tanked it 20 seconds just to make sure threat?
Tornadoes on Juljin got ya down?
How bout grieveous throw from Zuljin?
Rage claw? lol.
SSC trash? TK trash? MH trash?
Vashj naga spawn in your section?

I see that angel avatar from a mile away. I think in half our kill vids we have an angel flying in the background (our first gruul kill had 3 angels... heh heh)

However, our CoH priesty was #1 chart topper each kael kill.

[YamahaGuy]

2 Healers- Priest and Pally
1 SPriest
Pally Tank w/ healing gear
Warrior MT

Wow. Two healers? Maybe im not thinking right, but how on earth do ya heal dragon hawk? Tank getting beat on by birds, aoe pulling adds, especially during bomb phases, people getting hit randomly for 5k fire lazor, the MT taking tons of damage + occasional fire lazor.... thats pretty commendable

[Cattleya]

Yes they do compete on the meters, which doesn't make sense when somebody's job is to overheal the tank vs. others healing raid.

This is going to cause problems. Healers competing for meters is going to lead to people dying, because tactics that top meters are generally not good for raids. (I could also go on a rant about how inaccurate most of the meters actually are, given the number of healing spells that they credit incorrectly.) I know there was a post a bit ago on the official priest forums detailing exactly how to top meters. Of course the last line of the "guide" was something along the lines of "When your raid gets tired of wiping and realizes that healing meters are pointless and that meter chasing causes people to die, you can go back to healing properly and progress through content." I've actually seen guilds that ban the meters. If your healers are obsessing over them, perhaps it's something you should consider.

[kodeeak]

Wow. Two healers? Maybe im not thinking right, but how on earth do ya heal dragon hawk? Tank getting beat on by birds, aoe pulling adds, especially during bomb phases, people getting hit randomly for 5k fire lazor, the MT taking tons of damage + occasional fire lazor.... thats pretty commendable
we only bring a holy pally for MT heals and a shaman for smart raid heals to ZA with us. We've also run the same 10 people every clear for the last 3 months.

Dragonhawk requires people to maintain their composure really more than anything. Once you cross the T6 threshold, reducing to 2 healers in ZA and bringing that extra deeps really helps speed things up assuming everyone knows what to do for every boss and every trash area between bosses.

[Cembrelise]

I'm going to ask a dumb question, because sometimes we overlook the obvious and completely forget the basics when something goes wrong.

Do your priests get stoned and brez'd?

We have an extremely squishy priest who is also our best, most skilled healer. We lose him pretty frequently. So he's always stoned. It's never a problem. But then - he usually also only dies once, and you didn't say if yours were dying multiple times.

And yes, tell your guild to gtfo meters. Besides meters being inaccurate, they're largely useless when you consider time spent by cc classes/healers switching targets/etc/people pre-healing while you're waiting for raids to start just to be a nub.

If they want to know, they should have it on in a useless 5-man just for kicks.

[Tanalin]

Taking even one new person will screw your chances also. I can assure you there will be a wipe in there somewhere.

[Lobothomy]

Meters are quite handy for CL to evaluate performance. But I guess that's a moot point on a timed raid.