I hope the Arena System gets removed in WoTLK

[Wartro]

this was so Stupid of Blizzard to Rip off Guild Wars for the Burning Crusade X-Pac.
Arena Doesnt fit into WoW, not at all. WoW's pvP is Balanced around large scale PvP. Guild Wars is balanced around 1v1 which is why they are so Balanced in PvP.

Blizzard I suggest removing Arena Battles, or increase the Team size.
Suggest starting at 5v5 and going up from there

[thorleader]

People think to like it, So I don't think that it is that big of a problem if so many people are happy.

And how is it ripping from GW if it is a one on one battle? How is that any different than a duel, except with a couple friends and ranking.

[Wartro]

People think to like it, So I don't think that it is that big of a problem if so many people are happy.

And how is it ripping from GW if it is a one on one battle? How is that any different than a duel, except with a couple friends and ranking.

GW doesnt have 1v1 battles. but their Classes are Balanced around 1v1 combat.
WoW is not.
WoW is Balanced around Group Combat. the Smaller the Groups the more problems of Game Balance comes out.

Guild Wars had the Arena System way before WoW.
Even the new Battle Ground added in TBC is a rip off of the Alliance Battles in GW

[thorleader]

Do you know what I like about you Wartro? Your innate positivity

[Imraath]

I just hate it when you enter your realm, you have to win 10 arena games before you actually start playing the way you want... Oh... Wait... No.... You don't.

[Pharoahe]

If Blizz removed everything Wartro hates in this game, I doubt anyone would play it...

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

this was so Stupid of Blizzard to Rip off Guild Wars for the Burning Crusade X-Pac.
Arena Doesnt fit into WoW, not at all. WoW's pvP is Balanced around large scale PvP. Guild Wars is balanced around 1v1 which is why they are so Balanced in PvP.

Blizzard I suggest removing Arena Battles, or increase the Team size.
Suggest starting at 5v5 and going up from there

Wait.... let me get this straight. Blizzard ripped off Guild Wars with the Arena system? GUILD WARS, the MMO made by people who LEFT Blizzard and formed their own company? Guild Wars Which borrowed heavily from the same creative resources that were used in the development of World of Warcraft? Guild Wars which is very reminiscent of Diablo I and II, Blizzard products, developed largely by the same team which did Guild Wars? Guild Wars, which through an amicable aggreement between its developers and their former employer (Blizzard) were allowed to use the ideas they developed in Blizzard and apply it to their own products?

Honestly, I like the Arenas. I think it is a great way for a ladder system in WoW that isn't nearly as painful a process as the pre-TBC pre-Honor-revamped version of PvP. The best part is... if you don't want to do it, you don't have to.

[artler]

Where you live:grin:

[thorleader]

Where you live:grin:

??? confusing

[Findariel]

Well one of WoW's main problems is organisation.

The sole reason why so little guild progress beyond Kara - it's very very hard to get 25 people with good gear and the right classes and specc together at the same time, for the same amount of time, week after week, month after month.

Arena is the opposite. Maximum 1 hour a week, 1 day, only need 2-5 people.

There isn't a lot that most players can do after they've done Kara, and the incentive to go there isn't great to start with as BoJ rewards, crafted epics and PvP gear us the same or better quality than T4/Kara drops for most classes anyway.

So Blizzard better start with looking for an alternartive for all those who can't free up 3 x 4 hours a week and don't have a well geared 100+ player guild.

[det]

If you hate it, don't play it.

Sheeeesh..

I get my behind handed to me ever which way I turn in arena games, I hate the concept that a certain team setup is more likely to win if the skill is the same. I hate it that you can walk in and deliberately lose 10 games and still get epics. Guess what..so I don't pvp. I only like PvP in pre-mades. PuGs make me sick, not least because we have around 3 afkers in every AB and don't ask me how many leechers and suckers in an AV.

Findariel:

With our raid shedule and raid ninja (that is why you have raidguilds) I always found it easier to get the 10 or 25 men for raids than squeeze arena time in. Man, we pugged Mag on Gruul without notice on sunday afternoons....

[moopy]

Well one of WoW's main problems is organisation.

The sole reason why so little guild progress beyond Kara - it's very very hard to get 25 people with good gear and the right classes and specc together at the same time, for the same amount of time, week after week, month after month.


ZA- 10 man.
Gruul- Two boss encounters only, minimal trash
Magtheridon- One boss encounter only- minimal trash

[dwarfenhelm]

Findariel its not wow's main problems its your guild members problem that you havent got past kara. too many players are happy doing heroic 5 mans and kara as well as arena and bg's. in my experiance these players who load up on pvp gear for pve lack the skill to progress past kara and those that are just happy farming kara and heroics seem to undervalue the skill or gear they have and dont want to be part of a 25 man raid so even though they all chat about raiding ssc they dont turn up and cause problems in the guild and hamper advancment.
and as to arena is a rip of from guild wars. who cares its just another part of the game to play or not to play. i dont pvp as a rule so ive only done arena on my warrior in s1 and s2 to get a few bits of dps gear to give me a bit more stam that i had in my blues id picked up, the rest of my chars wont do arena as i dont need the gear on offer

[Successful]

I don't care what Blizzard ripped off of. They did it to make the game better, and more enjoyable.

[rgirty]

Well one of WoW's main problems is organisation.

The sole reason why so little guild progress beyond Kara - it's very very hard to get 25 people with good gear and the right classes and specc together at the same time, for the same amount of time, week after week, month after month.

Arena is the opposite. Maximum 1 hour a week, 1 day, only need 2-5 people.

There isn't a lot that most players can do after they've done Kara, and the incentive to go there isn't great to start with as BoJ rewards, crafted epics and PvP gear us the same or better quality than T4/Kara drops for most classes anyway.

So Blizzard better start with looking for an alternartive for all those who can't free up 3 x 4 hours a week and don't have a well geared 100+ player guild.


I approve of this post.

Arena = $ for blizzard plain and simple.

They would lose $ if they removed it, lots of people are lumped into the statement above.

[Janfader]

I approve of this post.

Arena = $ for blizzard plain and simple.

They would lose $ if they removed it, lots of people are lumped into the statement above.

True Story. Blizzard has/will incorporate the "hot" items into it's game to market the game to all their customer's needs.

And as many of said, not like it, don't play it.

For me, I HATE Arena, Dislike PvP and BG's. BUT, I love to PvE and complete all the quests/lines and farm for rep. So, Blizzard has done they're job to meet my likes/needs.

Now, if they they would only start policing the damn the public channels. :wave:

[Azori]

I like the idea of arena, but it is completely unbalanced. Like for a mage, only rogue mage is viable in 2v2, and that's cos rogues are OP in 2v2 :(

GW PVP is better than wows on small scale because GW is actually balanced.

[jschild]

Blizz seriously needs to look at CoH for PvP balance.

Instead of messing up PvE by trying to balance abilities for PvP (and thus ruining them for PvE), they should do what CoH does.

Many abilities simply work different in PvP than in PvE. SImply allowing certain skills to work differently would allow you to balance classes for both PvP and PvE without worrying how it affects the other. It might make the learning curve a bit higher, but balance would be far easier to achieve.

[Wartro]

Wait.... let me get this straight. Blizzard ripped off Guild Wars with the Arena system? GUILD WARS, the MMO made by people who LEFT Blizzard and formed their own company? Guild Wars Which borrowed heavily from the same creative resources that were used in the development of World of Warcraft? Guild Wars which is very reminiscent of Diablo I and II, Blizzard products, developed largely by the same team which did Guild Wars? Guild Wars, which through an amicable aggreement between its developers and their former employer (Blizzard) were allowed to use the ideas they developed in Blizzard and apply it to their own products?

Honestly, I like the Arenas. I think it is a great way for a ladder system in WoW that isn't nearly as painful a process as the pre-TBC pre-Honor-revamped version of PvP. The best part is... if you don't want to do it, you don't have to.

Many of these People seem to agree with me.:thumbsup::laughing::flowers::listen:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5974054016&sid=1

[rgirty]

Many of these People seem to agree with me.:thumbsup::laughing::flowers::listen:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5974054016&sid=1

Very few if any ideas are original.

WoW is simply a business model. Many of the devs played EQ and many things come directly from that environment.

Does it matter? Nope.

[Wartro]

Very few if any ideas are original.

WoW is simply a business model. Many of the devs played EQ and many things come directly from that environment.

Does it matter? Nope.

Yeah if it starts to WTF up WoW

[jschild]

Yeah if it starts to WTF up WoW


How has it "WTF" up WoW though?

Are people leaving in droves?

Can you still do BG's?

Can you still do Instances?

Can you still do Raids?

You can still play the game exactly how you want to play it. The Arena has changed the game little for most people. There have been some balancing issues yes, but so what? If you don't like it, don't play it. It is that simple.

When I see a petition signed by 100,000 or more WoW players, I will believe this is a serious issue. Until then, Blizz will not change what it is doing for what is probably far less than 1% of the game population.

[PlayThemAll]

The biggest complaint I've heard about Arena's are Point selling and rating requirements. Blizz is attempting to fix these in Season 4.

Like most things in the game, take it or leave it. I appreciate that Blizz is trying to provide something for everyone. If you don't like Arena's you don't have to go, there is no requirement for them anywhere in the game. For those of us that like a change of pace every once and a while, they can be fun.

[Wartro]

How has it "WTF" up WoW though?

Are people leaving in droves?

Can you still do BG's?

Can you still do Instances?

Can you still do Raids?

You can still play the game exactly how you want to play it. The Arena has changed the game little for most people. There have been some balancing issues yes, but so what? If you don't like it, don't play it. It is that simple.

When I see a petition signed by 100,000 or more WoW players, I will believe this is a serious issue. Until then, Blizz will not change what it is doing for what is probably far less than 1% of the game population.
oh yeah,,,
so I just Grind for S1 honor gear cause I like BG, but I get Creamed by another player in BG who has S3

WoW I Hope Blizzard and another MMO developer hires you for that kind of logic:rolleyes:

[PlayThemAll]

oh yeah,,,
so I just Grind for S1 honor gear cause I like BG, but I get Creamed by another player in BG who has S3

WoW I Hope Blizzard and another MMO developer hires you for that kind of logic:rolleyes:

I don't know when you started playing but it's not any worse then it was pre-TBC when raiders WTFPWNED everyone and you had to spend many many many hours a day every day in the BGs just to get something decent, which was still inferior.

At least casuals have a chance now. S1 is still a whole lot better then AH/quest greens/blues for PvP.

[jschild]

I don't run into tons of S3 geared players since they made changes to BG's concerning premades.

Guess what, there will almost always be someone better geared than you, and you will have to deal with them. BG's are not 1v1 duels. Thats where teamwork comes in.

Play arena's and get some S3 gear yourself. You can't claim you are running nonstop into fully S3 geared people in BG's. You will lose some and win some. Thats the game. Premade PvP groups are of little concern anymore so the playing field is far more balanced. You are more likely to be fighting some scrub in PvE gear than a full S3 decked out player, with alot in between.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Many of these People seem to agree with me.:thumbsup::laughing::flowers::listen:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5974054016&sid=1

Your linking to the cesspool of the official forums to back up your claim does nothing to sway me.

[semiiramiis]

I don't like arenas. I don't do arenas. Pretty simple.

And the days of the 100 member raiding guilds have gone the way of the Dodo bird. Mine has about 35 ready to go raiding 70s.

[rgirty]

oh yeah,,,
so I just Grind for S1 honor gear cause I like BG, but I get Creamed by another player in BG who has S3

WoW I Hope Blizzard and another MMO developer hires you for that kind of logic:rolleyes:

Get your own S3 and get even.

Your comparison is like saying that a new player should start at level 70, instead of level 1 because the level 70 can easily gank him in world pvp.

Gear = the carrot at the end of the stick blizzard dangles to keep getting people's 15$ a month.

If everything was equal, very few people would play. A considerable amount of discussion is simply based upon how to get the advantage over your opponent, with gear or tactics.

[jschild]

Get your own S3 and get even.

Your comparison is like saying that a new player should start at level 70, instead of level 1 because the level 70 can easily gank him in world pvp.

Gear = the carrot at the end of the stick blizzard dangles to keep getting people's 15$ a month.

If everything was equal, very few people would play. A considerable amount of discussion is simply based upon how to get the advantage over your opponent, with gear or tactics.

In fact, that seems to be exactly blizz's strategy. They are, if anything, expanding the methods available to gather gear. Some are more balanced than others (Raiders should still have clearly the best gear possible - end level raiders that is) but someone who hates to raid can get gear. Someone who loves PvP can get good gear. People who only want to do instances can get gear.

There are now more pathways to good gear than ever before. Hell, pre BC, you HAD to raid. There was no other real option. Be happy that we have even more choices than ever. Before 2.4, you had at 70, no PvP gear before hitting BG and Arena. Now you can at least start with a minor leg up for less than 100 gold. You have more choices than ever, not less.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

In fact, that seems to be exactly blizz's strategy. They are, if anything, expanding the methods available to gather gear. Some are more balanced than others (Raiders should still have clearly the best gear possible - end level raiders that is) but someone who hates to raid can get gear. Someone who loves PvP can get good gear. People who only want to do instances can get gear.

There are now more pathways to good gear than ever before. Hell, pre BC, you HAD to raid. There was no other real option. Be happy that we have even more choices than ever. Before 2.4, you had at 70, no PvP gear before hitting BG and Arena. Now you can at least start with a minor leg up for less than 100 gold. You have more choices than ever, not less.

I agree, well mostly. I fail to see why "end-game raiders" deserve the best, I'd rather see equivalent sets based around raiding, PvPing, and soloing. With the sets being tailored as best as possible to those three separate scenarios. The more in-line and balanced the sets are, in my opinion, the better they are.

Mainly... there just plain are people who can't afford to spend the time to raid (that is: end-game raid); and they should not be penalized for having real-world concerns... or just plain being disinterested in raiding in general. Note -- I am not saying that cool sets should just be handed out to everyone once they ding to the max level, I'm just saying that providing options for people to be able to play the game the way they enjoy playing the game, without being effectively penalized for it.

[MixiMan]

Directed at the OP:

Have you considered looking for something in the game which you like??

I am a casual player in the way of not "grinding" for anything. I have a mage in partly T4. I have a lock who has easily gotten his hands on S1 shoulders and some blue pvp gear in one day. And i have a 62 druid on his way to getting some nice gear. All are played differently, none of them are "full of win" ( just to speak in official forum terms, yes i read them and i am sorry for that ). Funny thing is though...and here it comes...I enjoy all of those funny little pixels moving on my screen.

Sorry if this sounds cocky/arrogant:

I find joy in the fact that i can beat people with better gear by playing better. I also find joy in being beaten by players greatly outclassing me. that gives me a sense of continuing, learning. That is why i am still playing this game. Not because i am WTFBBQPWNZ0R1NG* everything. That would be boring.


*( i feel like i could have gotten more numbers in place of letters, but i am kinda lazy when it comes to thinking)

[jschild]

I agree, well mostly. I fail to see why "end-game raiders" deserve the best, I'd rather see equivalent sets based around raiding, PvPing, and soloing. With the sets being tailored as best as possible to those three separate scenarios. The more in-line and balanced the sets are, in my opinion, the better they are.

Mainly... there just plain are people who can't afford to spend the time to raid (that is: end-game raid); and they should not be penalized for having real-world concerns... or just plain being disinterested in raiding in general. Note -- I am not saying that cool sets should just be handed out to everyone once they ding to the max level, I'm just saying that providing options for people to be able to play the game the way they enjoy playing the game, without being effectively penalized for it.

Raiders should get the best because it simply requires the most teamwork, coordination, and time to get there.

I totally love the new gear paths blizz has given, but if someone devotes more time, working with more people, than any other group, then they should earn the best gear. But it should not be so much better that no one else can even compete.

[rgirty]

Raiders should get the best because it simply requires the most teamwork, coordination, and time to get there.

I don't want to bring down the wrath of a paladin mod on my head but I don't think this is true.

All that is needed for end game raiding is people who share the same playtime and learned the concept taught to nearly every human at 5-6 years of age. Get along with people and learn to share. That goes for loot, raiding spots and whatever else.

Everyone, with the right amount of effort should be entitled to nearly equal gear/experiences in the game. Thats my belief anyway!

[jschild]

But it never works that simply, rgirty. I've seen your posts lamenting the amount of work and rules you have to implement just to get things to function smoothly.

If it was that easy, tons more people would have finished all the raids. Yet most people still haven't even cleared Kara.

I am not saying you must be a super-expert, but people, being people, tend to make things much more complicated.

It is far easier to run BGs, Get 2-5 people for arena, get 5 people for instances, than to get 25 people to show up and run a raid regularly enough for the entire group to benefit and get the best drops possible for them.

[rgirty]

But it never works that simply, rgirty. I've seen your posts lamenting the amount of work and rules you have to implement just to get things to function smoothly.

If it was that easy, tons more people would have finished all the raids. Yet most people still haven't even cleared Kara.

I am not saying you must be a super-expert, but people, being people, tend to make things much more complicated.

It is far easier to run BGs, Get 2-5 people for arena, get 5 people for instances, than to get 25 people to show up and run a raid regularly enough for the entire group to benefit and get the best drops possible for them.

yes, it is much much easier.

All the rules/regulations and stipulations are made to cover the simple fact that people cannot:

1. Get along with each other.
2. Learn to share things.

Find 20-25 people that like each other and can get along and you won't see these issues.

[jschild]

As such, for going through the work to find those people, them showing up, you do deserve the best.

Again, we don't want to go to the same gear disparities that we had pre-BC, but some tweaking is needed.

Having such a variety of ways to gear up is brilliant I think and Blizz will probably expand that. You just don't want to have everything so close that Raiders get frustrated.

I know many people (who don't really understand the game) think they can just get decked out in S1 gear and be ready to go, but with a few exceptions, they will perform far less than people who actually gear themselves correctly for PvE.

Things are not perfect, but I do think they are better than they once was.

[rgirty]

As such, for going through the work to find those people, them showing up, you do deserve the best.

Again, we don't want to go to the same gear disparities that we had pre-BC, but some tweaking is needed.

Having such a variety of ways to gear up is brilliant I think and Blizz will probably expand that. You just don't want to have everything so close that Raiders get frustrated.

I know many people (who don't really understand the game) think they can just get decked out in S1 gear and be ready to go, but with a few exceptions, they will perform far less than people who actually gear themselves correctly for PvE.

Things are not perfect, but I do think they are better than they once was.

Raiders that I know don't raid for loot, they raid for the experience and the group environment.

Badge or pvp gear being > my gear bothers me not in the least.

[jschild]

Yes, but I feel (and I'm not a raider here) that those who put the most work in, should reap the greatest rewards.

That being said, we don't need the pre-BC gear disparities.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Raiders should get the best because it simply requires the most teamwork, coordination, and time to get there.

I totally love the new gear paths blizz has given, but if someone devotes more time, working with more people, than any other group, then they should earn the best gear. But it should not be so much better that no one else can even compete.

Once again penalizing the people who don't have the spare time to do silly things like raiding. I don't see why the gear needs to be rewarded as such. Raiders get to experience the raid instances, see the new content and such. Gear is so.... firmly a part of this game that making a schism between raiders and other players is not a positive thing, from how I've seen it.

[jschild]

But there is not a huge schism anymore.

Why should someone who puts in less time, less teamwork, less coordination get the exact same thing?

I do think, as I have repeatedly said, that there should not be a huge disparity (IE, like pre-BC) but there should be a difference.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

But there is not a huge schism anymore.

Why should someone who puts in less time, less teamwork, less coordination get the exact same thing?

I do think, as I have repeatedly said, that there should not be a huge disparity (IE, like pre-BC) but there should be a difference.

I don't think there should be a difference in the quality of the items. The people who raid already get what they want -- to go, be challenged in figuring out the strats for a raid instance, see the raid instance, kill big monsters, hang out with large groups of people, spend their spare time playing WoW. Why does the itemization also need to favor the people who have extra spare time?

[MixiMan]

This thread actually got me thinking.

Why not award combo points for special kills in pvp, more people alive at the end of a boss fight. Achievements which require skill or an insane amount of luck.

Unreal tournament comes to mind. Monsterkill and such.


I am a supporter of raiders("high end") getting better gear than the rest. If you have a group of people able to operate beyond TK and succeed you deserve superior gear. Not gear that can be accumulated by spending enough time doing something.

You might say that if you spend enough time with the same 25 people you can get that kill, but that isn't true. At least that is what i experienced. Same 5 people alive at the end...No kill.

Making instances that only 5% of the population clears and rewarding them accordingly in gear is perfectly fine with me.

I wanted to raid because i love the lore involved, seeing where it is going. But i decided that reading the books, playing warcaft 1-3 again gives me enough to think i see where we will be fighting in late November.

What is with the fascination with gear??? I just don't get it:ponder:

[jschild]

Achievements would indeed be very cool.