Rolling Need on Nethers

[Maoileoin]

Just to clarify, none of the things that I'm about to describe would have frustrated me by themself. Okay maybe the last one. But all of them put together just, for lack of a better word, infuriated me and makes me wonder how people can get to 70 without learning these things.

I ran a pug this weekend for heroic UB. I know, my first mistake. But, I've actually had pretty decent groups in the past with no major problems. At the center of this glorious tale is our warrior tank. We group up, the first couple pulls go great. Then, he starts barking about us needing to go faster. Keep in mind, we finished in about 45 minutes, pretty much keeping the same pace that we started out with and ignoring the faster orders we kept getting. So, we weren't going slow. I guess this pissed him off, because in the instance as a whole, he made 3 or 4 pulls with the healer OOM. That's fine, we had enough DPS to burn the mobs before he was killed.

Okay so we kill the first boss. The tank rolls Need on a DPS weapon because he "needs" it for his off-spec. No asking, no nothing, just rolls. That's fine. No one else needed it and it would have been DE'd. We get to the last boss and kill it no problem. Primal nether drops, everyone else rolls greed, and before I know it, I see "so-and-so selects need for primal nether". I'm wondering wtf and he says he "needs" it for his gun. I not so kindly told him that keep in mind for future reference that other (if not most, because I'm not 100% sure) professions need primal nethers for their crafting as well. So before we disband, the enchanter in the group DE's all the blues that we picked up that no one wanted and we roll for shards. Guess who won the void crystal... yep, you got it, the tank. Not so bad for 45 minutes of work. He gets a nice weapon for his off-spec, a primal nether, and a void crystal.

Like I said, none of this by itself would have made me mad, nor would I have even cared. But please tell me I am right that the proper thing to do for nethers is to roll Greed and not Need. Hell, if he needed it that bad, spend 50g and buy one from the AH.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

It varies from group to group, if you feel so strongly about this, maybe you should let people know up-front about it. But typically, the polite thing to do is to roll greed rather than need for nethers, since they are used in a wide variety of things, just any other profession mat that crosses multiple professions like that... plus they are a bit rare to boot.

[clevins]

I don't treat nethers differently from other things. They're loot. If you need one to finish something, need it. Multiple people can click Need, so if you had an immediate need for the nether, click Need too.

If you can use it but will bank it against a future craftable item, greed. Same if you plan to sell it (now that they're BoE). Remember, too, that nethers are purchasable with 10 badges so if you really need them you can get them that way and avoid the randomness of drops, rolls etc.

As with all PUGs talk about loot rules beforehand if you care about the loot. And yes, it's more polite to ask before clicking Need.

PS: If I was running something with the object of getting a particular piece of loot I'd mention it as i joined the group i.e. "Hey, I'm trying to get the Feltooth Eviscerator out of this heroic Ramps run... anyone else after that too?" and then take it from there if someone is after the same piece.

[Maoileoin]

[QUOTE=clevins;4121696]I don't treat nethers differently from other things. They're loot.

But they are different from regular loot. I can't go to the AH and buy that BoP sword I need from a certain boss in a certain instance. So yes, if I need it, the only way to do that is to roll need and hope you win the roll. However, if I need a nether to complete a crafted item I can go buy one from the AH, or use badges to get one. Just like I can buy motes and primals from the AH or go farm them off elementals. Should I roll need, if available, on these if they drop?

Sure, we should have had this discussion at the beginning of the instance and not the end. I guess I just took it for granted that people knew this.

Edit: didn't quote correctly, sorry.

[elsegundo]

did you need the nether?

[clevins]

[QUOTE=clevins;4121696]I don't treat nethers differently from other things. They're loot.

But they are different from regular loot. I can't go to the AH and buy that BoP sword I need from a certain boss in a certain instance. So yes, if I need it, the only way to do that is to roll need and hope you win the roll. However, if I need a nether to complete a crafted item I can go buy one from the AH, or use badges to get one. Just like I can buy motes and primals from the AH or go farm them off elementals. Should I roll need, if available, on these if they drop?

.
Ah, sorry for the confusion. You're right of course about nethers being buyable. What I meant is that, when you're looting, they're just another piece of loot. Since they're *easier* to get than the other drops, I'm not sure what you're upset about though... the guy rolled need because he needed it. If you needed it too, roll need also. If you don't have an immediate need for it, pass or roll greed (so that you can bank it, sell it etc). It would be rude to roll Need against someone who could use it to make something if you were going to sell it or stick it in the bank.

[Maoileoin]

did you need the nether?

At the moment, no I don't need it. I rolled greed. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but this is how I've always treated BoP and BoE items. Roll need on BoP if you need them, greed on BoE. I guess my point of view is technically, the guy needed it, but there's other ways to go about getting that particular item as with something that is BoP there isn't.

What would you guys opinions be on tailors rolling on say, the spellstrike pattern? In this case we're not talking about a 50g nether, but a 1000g+ epic pattern that could be sold on the AH. Me personally, even though I am a tailor, would have a hard time justifying it to myself to roll need on it. In the end I would probably roll greed even though I technically "need" it more than others.

[elsegundo]

well as a tailor, i would need the pattern. but i would tell them that im a tailor, and i need the pattern. if i get disagreements, we'll have to talk about it. but otherwise, i find that a tailor selecting need on a needed pattern is fine, espeically in a pug. with a nether, i would expect every who needs to use it in their professions (either now or later) to roll need on it. though i can understand if the person didnt mention this beforehand, but i think he's in his very right to roll need on this. now being a douche is a different thing.

[Leviathonlx]

I tend to roll need on them if I have none so that whenever I do need one I do not need to buy or use badges to get one so I just try to keep a stockpile of 1 or 2 in my bank.

[Maoileoin]

now being a douche is a different thing.


Yeah, i think his incessant whining about going faster had pretty much worn on my nerves by the time we had finished that I took this a little different than I normally would have.

I still stand by the fact that since there are at any given time 20+ nethers on the AH and that you can get one with badges, there is no need to roll need on it and everyone should roll greed. If you win it then yay! You don't have to spend money or badges on one. If not, suck it up and buy one.

[Aerath]

What would you guys opinions be on tailors rolling on say, the spellstrike pattern?

I'm perfectly fine with that. I just want to see them learn the recipe on the spot.

With Primal Nethers, it's a bit iffy, since they were BoP first - people got in the habit of rolling Need for 'em if you might ever use 'em for crafting. Since they got changed to BoE, things have shifted, but some people still roll need.

I'd say either way is fine - as long as you are clear about it before people start rolling.

[Cattleya]

Back when they were BoP, I knew someone who liked to roll need on nethers to make stuff to sell. :rolleyes:

The groups I go with use an everyone greed rule for nethers. (Keeps things nice and simple.) We also announce "eveyone greed on the nether" when that last boss falls. Personally, if someone makes a case where they actually need the nether to make an upgrade for their main spec, go ahead. (And I would expect them to be most of the way their with their other mats for the item as well.) Otherwise, they are in the same greed boat as everyone else.

I have done runs specifically to get a nether for someone though. Obviously, in those cases, everyone knows up front who the nether goes to.

Need rolling on an item for an off spec without consulting the group first is not acceptable in my eyes. I've never been in a group where someone was told they couldn't roll on it for an offspec when they asked (and no one needed it for a main spec.) A lot of the people I run with will pass on rolling for shards at the end if they take an item for an offspec though, figuring that the off spec item counted as their shard.

For BoE patterns, it depends on the group. For a mostly guild run, the pattern will usually go to someone who can use it. (And they would be expected to learn it, not sell it.) We do check with any pugs in the group first if that's okay. (If it's not, we roll on it, and most of us will turn the pattern over to the person with the profession if we win the roll.) For a pure PUG, everyone needs the BoE patterns/BOE blues and epics. I only had to have one ninja situation to learn that one.

Those fun BoP patterns are always a bit stressful in PuGs. I've found the easiest way to deal with that is just to have anyone who can make the pattern need roll it. I think the one that made me the most upset was a run through normal SH where Savagery dropped. It was 4 guildies with one pugger. Before I can type out "is anyone else an enchanter?" the pug warlock need rolls on it. Whatever, I just roll need on it as well. (I knew none of my guildmates were enchanters, and a warlock has no justification for needing a savagery enchant more than a holy priest. :grin: ) I win (Yay!) and learn the pattern. I get a whisper from him asking me to give him the pattern. I tell him it's BoP. So, in party, he makes a snippy "So, are you just going to vendor the pattern?" I tell him no, I learned it. Basically, he was trying to make me look like a ninja for need rolling against him.

The kicker after his little temper-tantrum? His enchanting skill was like 280. He couldn't even learn the pattern yet. :tongue: (He also tried to ninja the shards at the end, and I actually had to chase him to Shatt before he gave them to me to distribute to the rest of the group. In other words, he was one of those people who wouldn't ninja when pressed, but would see what he could get away with. Yes, we should have just had me DE stuff, but he wanted to do it, and I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt at first.)

[clevins]

I'm perfectly fine with that. I just want to see them learn the recipe on the spot.

With Primal Nethers, it's a bit iffy, since they were BoP first - people got in the habit of rolling Need for 'em if you might ever use 'em for crafting. Since they got changed to BoE, things have shifted, but some people still roll need.

I'd say either way is fine - as long as you are clear about it before people start rolling.

This. I think that the change from BoP to BoE hasn't made it through to to how people roll for nethers...

to the OP - I see what you're saying. Seems reasonable to me, I just think it's a habit thing.

on he patter I'm with Aerath - learn it on the spot.

[Beruen]

I've always discussed nethers before rolling on them. When they were BoP, my preference was to roll Need if you were making an item you'd roll need on if it dropped and it was for your own use, Greed if you could use it for anything else, and pass otherwise. Now that they're BoE, I don't see a reason to roll anything but Greed on them, they're just another dropped crafting mat.

EDIT: OK, so rolling need if someone else rolls need first would be one reason.

[teck21]

Well, as some have said, if loot rules weren't discussed before any loot drops, then I guess one can't really have any complainst about people doing the 'wrong' thing by needing what they shouldn't.

Was what the tank did ethical? Nope, and he didn't even have to lie about anything. And as General Peckham would say, it isn't even against the law to lie to someone!

If this sort of thing bugs you, then establish rules beforehand. If it doesn't, then you're good.

Personally I don't care whether people roll need or greed on whatever. If I am unlucky enough to have something 'ninja'ed' off me, I simply try again if I want that item that badly. Which I never do. It's a game. No point getting all worked up.

[Marlous]

It's always difficult with BoE items, because they can be sold for a profit. I reckon that someone should need when a) it's an upgrade for the gear of the toon they run the instance with, or b) a pattern for the toon's profession that they don't know yet. Of course, ask before needing unless you want to rub me the wrong way.
If they want to need an item to use for levelling a profession, I object.. I'm a jc, but I don't need on expensive gems only because I can level from them - if I need them I can also buy them off the AH. And now that Primal Nethers are BoE, I treat them the same; you may need that item for your levelling, but I need the gold that item can net me for my mount. Same difference.

I have to admit though, that the value of a BoE also plays a part.. I once had a guy in my group rolling need for an epic axe that dropped, and which was worth 600g. He's on my ignore list now, because with such valuable items it doesn't matter anymore if it's a good upgrade for your gear.

BoP's a whole different story, of course, since it's only good for vendoring if you can't use it. Just try to get an enchanter in your group so that you can at least get some nice shards from it. :)

[Renata]

This kind of crap is the reason I avoid pugs.

...Ren

[swaldman]

I have to admit though, that the value of a BoE also plays a part.. I once had a guy in my group rolling need for an epic axe that dropped, and which was worth 600g. He's on my ignore list now, because with such valuable items it doesn't matter anymore if it's a good upgrade for your gear.

I disagree. I'd always rather see something used than sold. Back before the expansion I had this conversation when a Destiny dropped. I'm fine for somebody to need it, *provided* I see them equip it straight away. If you can't equip it and it has that sort of value, don't need it - with people I don't know I'm not inclined to trust "I just need to go and learn sword skill".

[coani]

See OP's story, and top it with getting /ignore from someone who won a need roll on a Nether after heroic Sethekk Halls run, where I passed on the drop because I didn't need it, didn't want it, and had no interest in winning one to sell on AH either, never mind the fact that I already had 10 in bank (across 3 chars).

[dagee]

Here's the question though. Did the tank wait for everyone to roll greed then roll need? If so he essentially ninja'd the nether. If on the other hand he rolled need immediately then other players would have had the chance to determine their own need for the item.

[zodiac66]

Here's the question though. Did the tank wait for everyone to roll greed then roll need? If so he essentially ninja'd the nether. If on the other hand he rolled need immediately then other players would have had the chance to determine their own need for the item.

Primal nether drops, everyone else rolls greed, and before I know it, I see "so-and-so selects need for primal nether". I'm wondering wtf and he says he "needs" it for his gun.

I take it he was the last to select the /roll.

[Maoileoin]

I take it he was the last to select the /roll.


What he said. ^^ Anyway, I'm not going to let one bag pug experience ruin my 5 man runs. Like I said, I really haven't had problems with them before this incident.

[det]

The proper thing to do is to agree on rolls and how need/greed is handled BEFORE the first pull.

[Ash Housewares]

for useful/valuable BOE items everyone should roll the same, be it greed or need

whenever a nether drops, I roll last, because I'm sick of people rolling need on what is now a BOE when I've been hitting greed, hell, I'm sick of people rolling need on tomes/armaments so as soon as I see someone else hit need, so do I, otherwise I will greed with everyone else

[clevins]

Ash... good system. the other thing I do is set loot to group/rare so that greens just go to whoever has that mob's loot. They're not valueable enough to care about, it evens out over time and you don't waste time rolling on them.