Is Blizz doing anything about raid issues?

[Immortus]

After reading numerous articles in places like Gamespot.com about the upcoming MMO's like AoC and WAR and how they will affect WoW I happened to discover a common theme. The #1 beef most of these people had was one you've heard many times before - That the culmination of this game's story as well as the best item drops are in the end-game raids but only a small % of subscibers get to experience any of it. Forget Sunwell Plateau, most of the players don't even set foot in Kara. It's not by choice most of the time either. Another gripe I've heard often is that if you mention PuGing Kara or later you get laughed out of the room :laugh: You need to be in a raid guild, need to be able to get a raid slot from them and you need to be available for many, many time sinks.
WAR in particular is said to have paid particular heed to this complaint and have avoided the time and effort costly requirements of WoW-style raids so as not to alienate such a massive % of the playerbase, can't speak for AoC because I don't know but I've heard rumours it may be bad too. So the question is, will Blizzard step up to the plate and quit making the end game raids so unaccessable for so many people?

[Leviathonlx]

I do not understand what you are trying to say.

Could be because all I see is a giant block of text of rambling or just since I know the post is just a disguised QQ post.

Saying the end-game raids are unaccessible in WoW especially now days is laughable also.

WAR is not a PvE MMO like WoW is/was and it is a MMO more focussed on PvP which also can be flawed.

Course your whine became a joke the moment you said most people have not set foot in Kara and I honestly feel like I am responding to a troll.

[clevins]

Um... there are 10 million people playing WoW. How alienated can people be? Of course some people QQ about endgame loot... but 1) what the heck do you need endgame level loot for in the WoW world at large (farming, questing, 5 mans) and 2) the new badge vendor has many endgame BT level pieces you can get without raiding.
AoC? WAR? Neither are PvE games and well... talk to me when they ship. Until then all of the WoW will die when they ship stuff is just unjustified spew.

[Immortus]

thx Levi, for a minute there I thought I logged into the official WoW boards.
/sarcasm

ok aside from that, you're wrong, do your research. WAR is NOT a PvP focused MMO. Quoted directly from the WAR devs, they said it'll be a 50/50 or at most 60/40 split. Also quoting directly from their devs, they're putting enough content into it that you'll be able to run from start to end game content without a single PvP session. I checked, maybe you ought to before going into offical WoW boards mode on me. I'm sure you know what I mean by that so I won't bother explaining.
Secondly, to tell me I'm wrong that most of the playerbase isn't getting into the end game raids sufficiently is only ever disputed on WoW boards (no surprise there). Go take your opinion into any neutral all-MMO website forum and try to make that claim. Good luck. It's not a stretch to say that a lot of WoW fansite boards are populated with more hardcore gamers than casual either so again it comes as no surprise to me that I'm going to get some heavily biased opinions in this thread. For the record, no this isn't a "QQ" thread. I've been out of WoW for over a year now mate, and I left for precisely the reason stated in this thread. When I come from a large group of players who know each other IRL and the only one of all of us who has made repeated runs through kara with a raiding guild isn't a casual gamer, that speaks volumes. And even he only has managed about 2 drops from there. How long has BC been out now? Like I said, I'm not whining. I'm actually looking for a reason to come back because I feel like a change again. But the old reputation for rudeness WoW players get labeled with seems to be holding I see. I just wanted to see if lizz has made the end game accessable to everyone or if it's still just mostly hardcore gamers who raid every night in raid guilds during prime time. In other words people who aren't single, work full time, and then don't spend time with their families after work. Of course the response I get from that is uaually "bull! I'm married, have kids, and work, and I have time to raid, so can you". That, to be simply stated, is a bald faced lie. I have 20+ RL friends who play(ed) WoW and NONE of the married, working, family guys can do it. 3 of them tried... take a wild guess which ones are either seperated or in divorce court as we speak? I kid you not.

[surodat]

I can understand the gripe about not seeing all of the story. But that's it. I think Blizzard has gone out of it's way to make higher level gear accessible to casual players, just not the best.

[Mincemaker]

thx Levi, for a minute there I thought I logged into the official WoW boards.
/sarcasm

ok aside from that, you're wrong, do your research. WAR is NOT a PvP focused MMO. Quoted directly from the WAR devs, they said it'll be a 50/50 or at most 60/40 split. Also quoting directly from their devs, they're putting enough content into it that you'll be able to run from start to end game content without a single PvP session. I checked, maybe you ought to before going into offical WoW boards mode on me. I'm sure you know what I mean by that so I won't bother explaining.
Secondly, to tell me I'm wrong that most of the playerbase isn't getting into the end game raids sufficiently is only ever disputed on WoW boards (no surprise there). Go take your opinion into any neutral all-MMO website forum and try to make that claim. Good luck. It's not a stretch to say that a lot of WoW fansite boards are populated with more hardcore gamers than casual either so again it comes as no surprise to me that I'm going to get some heavily biased opinions in this thread. For the record, no this isn't a "QQ" thread. I've been out of WoW for over a year now mate, and I left for precisely the reason stated in this thread. When I come from a large group of players who know each other IRL and the only one of all of us who has made repeated runs through kara with a raiding guild isn't a casual gamer, that speaks volumes. And even he only has managed about 2 drops from there. How long has BC been out now? Like I said, I'm not whining. I'm actually looking for a reason to come back because I feel like a change again. But the old reputation for rudeness WoW players get labeled with seems to be holding I see. I just wanted to see if lizz has made the end game accessable to everyone or if it's still just mostly hardcore gamers who raid every night in raid guilds during prime time. In other words people who aren't single, work full time, and then don't spend time with their families after work. Of course the response I get from that is uaually "bull! I'm married, have kids, and work, and I have time to raid, so can you". That, to be simply stated, is a bald faced lie. I have 20+ RL friends who play(ed) WoW and NONE of the married, working, family guys can do it. 3 of them tried... take a wild guess which ones are either seperated or in divorce court as we speak? I kid you not.

So, 20 = majority? Believe it or not, there are people who can balance raiding with real life. Like my facilitator in polytechnic who plays WoW. He was able to get to Kael'thas in The Eye after two weeks while still holding onto his job. I also know a friend who excelled in academic life and actually got into Black Temple and cleared it no problem. The problem is how you manage the time.

And speaking about WAR, yes, 50/50, but it is still a PVP focused game as a majority of the skills are based around PVP performance, the Morale system is also for PVP, the most rewarding experience is also from PVP and you are expected to see PVP in every single zone. In fact, even guilds are designed like military organization. This game may provide a focus on PVE, but the most rewarding experience comes from waging wars, fighting wars, winning wars, losing wars, defending stronghold, sieges, killing, more killing, even more player killing and gloating over each other's misery. (Sounds like a game for me)

[Immortus]

agreed, I don't want this to be interpreted as a gear gripe. It's the story that I REALLY want to see. but if my last experience has shown me anything, it seems like that's nothing but an unobtainable dream. Which really peeves me when I see Blizz post articles about SWP and how much 'everyone' enjoyed the climax of the story and are ready to move on to WotLK. It stank of false advertising to me. I'd love to actually see a figure of what percentage of all WoW players have made it to SWP...

So, 20 = majority? Believe it or not, there are people who can balance raiding with real life. Like my facilitator in polytechnic who plays WoW. He was able to get to Kael'thas in The Eye after two weeks while still holding onto his job. I also know a friend who excelled in academic life and actually got into Black Temple and cleared it no problem. The problem is how you manage the time.


all you've shown is that one working guy and one student spent a ton of their time away from school/work playing WoW. That's not a good example at all.

[Mincemaker]

all you've shown is that one working guy and one student spent a ton of their time away from school/work playing WoW. That's not a good example at all.

Still a pretty successful real life. They just happen to love gaming. What is wrong with spending free time playing games? It's no different from spending free time going to cinema all day, or watching television all day or anything like that. It's a pastime. For as long as they can balance their pastime with real life, I say they are successful.

[Immortus]

my point is that those people are the exception not the norm in society. Despite what you might think or believe, people who are so into their game of choice that it takes up the bulk of their free timne to the exception of most other activities in life are a rather small number. Sounds to me that your two pals don't do much else other than game if those timelines you posted are accurate.

[thorleader]

due to the fact its been out for such a short period of time, not many

[Mincemaker]

Actually, they do those two simultaneously, no problem whatsoever. It has been like that since the game. They work/go to polytechnic, mingle with workmates/classmates, spend long hours working/studying, eat and sleep, and THEY GAME too. Believe it or not, you do not need to race in raids, and raids aren't even close to being as difficult as you think it is. The gear requirement is obnoxious, but all that takes is a period of time. Killing boss isn't as hard as you think either. If you go in there with the gear, the consumables, and having read on how to deal with each encounter and keep them in your head, you will breeze through the encounter after two-three wipes (wipes due to lack of practice). In fact, I never knew they played WoW until they peeked at me planning my talent build for my rogue that one day two months ago.

And how do you know norm? Statistics? What you see? Friends? Describe your definition of norm before you think of mentioning it. There are far more people than just 20 people. Raiding is fine. In fact, raiding is easier in TBC than pre-TBC. And you can easily get gear from heroics too to make the gear preparation for higher level raids easier.

Personally, I am not really fond of raiding. I much prefer to just do my own thing like BGs and fishing.

In any MMO, to get anywhere, to progress, to see more content, you have to put in time for it. In fact, you are expected to invest a certain amount of time into it, how you accumulate that time is up to you (you can go ahead and break them into 2 hours a day for all I care). To get the great rewards, you have to devote your time for it. This is the way it works in real life and this is also the way it works in MMOs. Try getting a promotion just by working for one day. If you can't stand the way MMOs work, I suggest you go and play strategy games or first person shooters. And even that takes time before you can actually be good at it and advance in the rankings.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Um... there are 10 million people playing WoW. How alienated can people be? Of course some people QQ about endgame loot... but 1) what the heck do you need endgame level loot for in the WoW world at large (farming, questing, 5 mans) and 2) the new badge vendor has many endgame BT level pieces you can get without raiding.
AoC? WAR? Neither are PvE games and well... talk to me when they ship. Until then all of the WoW will die when they ship stuff is just unjustified spew.

My roommate has a simple signature on the official forums that he uses:

10 million play this game.
Therefore every conceivable thing will be complained about.
No complaint is valid except for mine.

I think the OP's post falls within #2.

[juvestar15]

Raiding in WoW is whatever you make it. Unfortunately it's been hard trying to break that 'hardcore' label. Just some tips though Immortus...
There are a hell of a lot more guilds doing kara. That means there's more of a chance to find a guild that fits your style. There are guilds that 2 nights a week and keep runs to 3 hours. There's heaps that don't require consumables but usually enforce a gear requirement(5 man blues are enough).

If I were you I'd join a laid back guild, do the 5 mans/heroics, then try kara once a week for a few hours when everyone is on. Just do it ad hoc at first, no planning, no pressure. Try for once a week and organise a night for it that 10 people are free. Don't force dates on people and keep it relaxed.

A lot guilds who plan for kara go to DEFCON 1. They want you geared up with items that surpass kara loot, they want consumables, 5 hours per night, 4 nights a week. It doesn't have to be like that. There are plenty of guilds out there that cleared kara in 1-2 months by doing 3-4 hours twice a week. That's pretty fast progressed for a liad back guild. Feel free to go slower and take your time. At that rate though, anything past kara is just a dream I think.

I also think that with 10 million players, this community has completely different ideas of what's easy and what's hard. What's worth putting time into and what isn't. I personally think that the effort most guilds want me to put in is no where near worth the reward. I think it's all about finding the right people.

One other thing. MMOs aren't all like WoW. Sometimes people can find the time to play a game but can't justify spending that time playing it. I've done this with lots of games, especially WoW. I've played on and off since release and have never got past the first few bosses in 20/10 man raids. I just don't see the point. However I can see why other people like it and don't mind spending the time. It's great when you find a game you want to sink so much time into.

Maybe WoW isn't for you. Definitely try something else though, you're bound to find one you're comfortable with. :)

[Shellar]

WAR in particular is said to have paid particular heed to this complaint and have avoided the time and effort costly requirements of WoW-style raids so as not to alienate such a massive % of the playerbase
Enlighten me. How, exactly, do they achieve this?

[dwarfenhelm]

ive played wow for 18 months now and never seen a problem with any player who wanted to raid. i have raided up to t5 lvl raids and its never affected my family life and i cant say ive come across many players who complain that they cant raid. infact the only players ive come accross who complain they cant raid are the idiots who have no clue about the game or team play and would be booted out of any raid guild casual or not.
and as to war its a role playing game and we chose what parts of the game we play, i dont like pvp so i dont pvp otyhers i know dont like pve raids and just live for pvp action. i know people who level up to 70 then leave that char and start another, they just want to have lots of 70's. then you have players who just love to quest and want to complete every single quest in the game. then i know people who love the role play they have no wish to lvl up and just want to be a little gnome.
to many people play this game and they all have the way they like to play. could i turn round and say well statisticaly this is ......
you get out of wow what you want blizzard have made the game open and accesable to every one and as the game gets older more and more end game content is being made easier to get to.
i think it would be a good idea to sort your facts sorted before you start to judge things

[Immortus]

ok getting some good feedback here. I should probably qualify my OP by saying much of my experience comes from playing BC within the first 6 months of release on a low pop server. Back then it was sheer hell trying to get into raids, have any hope of rolling raid set gear, get to experience the story arc, unless you were prepared to be available half of the week during peak hours every week. By the sounds of what a couple of you are saying, it's not as bad now. I dearly hope so, so I'll at least give it a shot. I really don't care that much about being able to get the gear, I'd just love a chance to be able to immerse myself into the story arc without having to take great pains to do it. Thanks much all for the tips :)

[Ritsuko]

1sly. I put together a pug Kara every week. We take me with a few of my friends(in T6) and a bunch of blue people. We clear the whole thing in a little over 2 hours. of course, when I put pugs together on my alts, it takes a bit longer, and we wipe a few times on a few certain bosses, but we still clear the whole thing in under 3. There are pug grulls and mag, every week, that clear it easily. My guild and the few others who have cleared bt and are in sunwell, pug ssc/tk/mh on our alts together. And bring in pugs as needed.

2nd. With badge gear, pvp gear, heroics, craftable epics, they have made this game so you can have raid equivalent gear, with out spending all your time raiding. And for those of us that are hard core raiders, it's frustrating.

sunwell, mh, bt..hell, even ssc tk, are ment for hard core raiders, not for people who can play a few hours a week. this is why there is so much other things to do, as in pvp, instances, dalies, crafting.

Though only a small % of the population are "hard core". they are the ones that normally stick around, use things like, character transfers and name changes, get multiple accounts, pre order special eddition expansions, buy shirts, hats, figurines, you name it. the random person wont spend as much money on blizz as the hard core people do. So if you take away these things, they will just leave and go somewhere else.

there is so much stuff to do for non hard core raiders. Thruthfully, a lot more to do then just end game raids.

[Aerath]

Let's.

Heroics nerfed to hell.
Karazhan nerfed to hell.
SSC + TK nerfed to hell.

Karazhan attunement dropped.
SSC/TK attunement dropped.
MH/BT attunement dropped.

Freeby BT-quality epics. Ez-moad PvP epics -> impossible to *not* gear up to an acceptable Karazhan level.

I'd almost say that anyone *not* at least raiding Karazhan these day must have made a conscious effort to avoid it, considering how it takes at best a couple hours on a day out of your life to even go there once. Even if you only kill a few bosses in there.

I've spent longer in BRD without clearing the entire place than a Karazhan runs takes these days.

[Clavina]

my point is that those people are the exception not the norm in society. Despite what you might think or believe, people who are so into their game of choice that it takes up the bulk of their free timne to the exception of most other activities in life are a rather small number. Sounds to me that your two pals don't do much else other than game if those timelines you posted are accurate.

Just because your friends can't manage their time doesn't mean everyone can't. My guild is currently working through T6 content which we got into before the attunement removal. We are all adults with other halves, kids, studies, jobs, other hobbies etc etc.

Our raids start at 20.30 so that dinners can be eaten and kids can be put to bed. We raid for 3 hours Mon - Wed and do one 5 hour raid on a Sunday. People are expected to attend at least 1-2 raids a week, but if something outside wow take precedent then thats fine.

[teck21]

I'd love to actually see a figure of what percentage of all WoW players have made it to SWP...

You'd be surprised how many of the 10m or so subscribers, for whatever voluntary reason know they will never ever kill anything in SWP, or maybe even Gruul's Lair and are perfectly fine with it.

The number of people like yourself, who want to see and kill everything but cannot for whatever supposed involuntary reason are almost certainly a very small minority.

As you said, 'I'd just love a chance to be able to immerse myself into the story arc without having to take great pains to do it.'

Which of course means that you can, if you choose to. And you're considering full immersion into the story arc as seeing and killing everything. Which may not be the case for alot of people. Not to mention the lore's getting increasingly weird and less, umm, 'lore-ish'.

[Leviathonlx]

I'd love to actually see a figure of what percentage of all WoW players have made it to SWP..

You want figures?

http://www.wowjutsu.com/world/

Theres some figures for you even if they are not 99.9% accurate (since not everyone is guilded and wowjutsu only tracks guilds) its more accurate than your speculating that no one sees content. It so far is tracking 2.5 million people and since it only tracks US and Europe that is a large percentage of the playerbase it is tracking still but out of those 2.5 million people 99% have been into Karazhan and got gear.

How you say "I see things are not as bad now" leads me to believe you don't even play the game right now and haven't for some time and have just registered to this site to whine since you can't on the official forums. And I wouldn't compare me to the official forums just because you don't agree with my response to you as the official forums would of tore you up much worse.

Raiding is not even near inaccessible these days.

[moopy]

After reading numerous articles in places like Gamespot.com about the upcoming MMO's like AoC and WAR and how they will affect WoW I happened to discover a common theme. The #1 beef most of these people had was one you've heard many times before - That the culmination of this game's story as well as the best item drops are in the end-game raids but only a small % of subscibers get to experience any of it. Forget Sunwell Plateau, most of the players don't even set foot in Kara. It's not by choice most of the time either. Another gripe I've heard often is that if you mention PuGing Kara or later you get laughed out of the room :laugh: You need to be in a raid guild, need to be able to get a raid slot from them and you need to be available for many, many time sinks.
WAR in particular is said to have paid particular heed to this complaint and have avoided the time and effort costly requirements of WoW-style raids so as not to alienate such a massive % of the playerbase, can't speak for AoC because I don't know but I've heard rumours it may be bad too. So the question is, will Blizzard step up to the plate and quit making the end game raids so unaccessable for so many people?

Wall of text crits you
For seventeen thousand (fire)
Ha ha, you have died

More specifically:

Forget Sunwell Plateau, most of the players don't even set foot in Kara. It's not by choice most of the time either. Another gripe I've heard often is that if you mention PuGing Kara or later you get laughed out of the room :laugh: You need to be in a raid guild, need to be able to get a raid slot from them and you need to be available for many, many time sinks.


Utter tosh. People PUG kara all the time these days, and even PUGs clear it pretty fast. Casual guilds do so even faster. Most weeks, I get whispers on most of my lv 70s, trying to drag me to Karazhan (though I prefer guild alt runs, which take a couple of hours and are far more social).

Everyone needs the next challenge, raids are there for furthering peoples' personal "hero's journey"- it's an MMO, so of course it's both "MM" and "O" rather than a solo saga. It would be lame in extreme if they handed everything to you on a plate. Try playing a single-player game, maybe.

If it comes to it, see if you can waltz right into the room with the last boss when you play that single-player game.

[Mincemaker]

If it comes to it, see if you can waltz right into the room with the last boss when you play that single-player game.

If I can just waltz right to the last boss, I will definitely not play that game. A game that's too easy isn't worth playing, I prefer something that can keep me occupied for months or even years.

[moopy]

Mincemaker,

Don't suppose you ever played "Elite"? Came out in the 8-bit era, people are still playing it..

[Renata]

The core problem is this:

Different people like to play the game different ways. It is not possible to create a game that is all things to all people, and all people's play styles.

I am what I call "casual hardcore". I like to progress in a limited way and probably play the game more than the average person. But I am not, and never will be, a hardcore raider for a number of reasons. It requires a level of time commitment -- firm time commitment -- that I just cannot give, for a variety of reasons.

Some days I just don't feel like playing the game and like having the option to decide to do something else instead. If you're committed to a certain number of nights raiding, that's a promise you've made and you need to honor it. I do honor promises I've made even when I don't necessarily feel like it (I really didn't feel like raiding Sunday night, but I'd signed up, so I went) but I don't want to lock myself into more than one or two days a week. I also have other interests that take up some evenings. Plus, I have this nasty habit of going to bed at a reasonable hour (one of the inconvenient things about being 40 is that I just can't deal with sleep deprivation anymore). I also don't tend to focus on a single character, so while my warlock (my main) is quite decently geared, she's not as solid as she would be if I played her exclusively.

But it sort of reminds me of an old joke about a person who comes up to a virtuoso after a concert and says, enraptured, "I'd give my life to play like that!", and the virtuoso answers, "I did."

(Not that I am comparing the accomplishments of a concert musician to a WoW player, but you get the drift of the joke).

If you make end-game content that anyone and everyone in the server can get to, regardless of their ability to play the game or time they put into it, you're going to end up losing a lot of people from boredom.

Everything is a tradeoff. The guy I do the podcast with is a much more hardcore raider than I am, and we talk a lot about the tradeoffs between a casual and hardcore style. His gear is better, but I think I lead a much more relaxed life.

Pugging Kara has become a lot more common since the Badge of Justice rewards come up. A full Kara clear is a badge bonanza. I'd also be interested where this mystery statistic of "most of the players don't even set foot in Kara". Is that backed up with actual data, or is it just your personal impression?

...Ren

[Wintrow]

I'd almost say that anyone *not* at least raiding Karazhan these day must have made a conscious effort to avoid it, considering how it takes at best a couple hours on a day out of your life to even go there once. Even if you only kill a few bosses in there.

I've spent longer in BRD without clearing the entire place than a Karazhan runs takes these days.

I've taken 23 days /played getting my main and very first character (druid) to L70 over the course of about 2 years. After that it took me 3 days /played to do BGs and quests to get Heroic/Kara ready. Last weekend I got my last piece. In the mean time I was able to tank a handful heroics that netted me 6-ish badges of justice. I also got most of the gear enchanted with the best or second best enchants (+6 stats on chest, +35 agi on weapon, nethercleft leg armor, but +10 sta armor kits on gloves and the 2-Holy Dust enchant on shoulders for instance).

I did this with:
30 minutes every weekday at lunch time
one "dungeon fridaynight" a week

Spending "a couple of hours a day" is SO out of the question as that would seriously alienate me from my dear wife and my little boy. Not to mention how my chores would start piling up.

Been there, done that, NOT worth it.

Off course, I'm now really looking forward to setting foot in Kara :grin:.

[maladroit2000]

You want figures?

http://www.wowjutsu.com/world/

Theres some figures for you even if they are not 99.9% accurate (since not everyone is guilded and wowjutsu only tracks guilds) its more accurate than your speculating that no one sees content. It so far is tracking 2.5 million people and since it only tracks US and Europe that is a large percentage of the playerbase it is tracking still but out of those 2.5 million people 99% have been into Karazhan and got gear.


To suggest that 99% of players (or anything like that) have been in Karazhan is preposterous. 99% of players do not even have a level 70 character.

I think the original posters point is that the vast majority of people don't raid the end game instances but the majority of developement time is put into them. Given the choice, this majority would rather that time was spent developing more content that they could experience.

[Leviathonlx]

To suggest that 99% of players (or anything like that) have been in Karazhan is preposterous. 99% of players do not even have a level 70 character.

I think the original posters point is that the vast majority of people don't raid the end game instances but the majority of developement time is put into them. Given the choice, this majority would rather that time was spent developing more content that they could experience.

Maybe you should read what I posted. I said 99% of the 2.5 million players it tracks have received loot in Kara as it only tracks guilds and so it doesn't have players who are unguilded but of course a small percentage of that 2.5 million are alts of others already tracked. 99% of 2.5 million players in a game that has over 10 million subscribers (think about 5 million between Europe and the US) does not mean 99% of the playerbase. Course I'd imagine between the US and Europe the 2.5 million people is the large majority of 70's.

I am not sure why its so hard to accept that raiding is not as unreachable as some of you want to think especially now days.

[DrOsmius]

In other words people who aren't single, work full time, and then don't spend time with their families after work. Of course the response I get from that is uaually "bull! I'm married, have kids, and work, and I have time to raid, so can you". That, to be simply stated, is a bald faced lie. I have 20+ RL friends who play(ed) WoW and NONE of the married, working, family guys can do it. 3 of them tried... take a wild guess which ones are either seperated or in divorce court as we speak? I kid you not.

So you come seeking an answer to a question, but refuse to believe any answer other than the one you already think is right?

I am happily married & work full-time, as are about 10 others in my raid guild. I have kids (5 & 8), as do several others. I raid once per week (7:30-11pm), and otherwise only play between 10pm and midnite...all other hours are spent with my family, which is (other than 2hrs on raid nite) 100% of their waking hours not in school. I have done all but 2 bosses before Hyjal/BT, and now that attunement was lifted, I've entered Hyjal and will do my first BT this week (guild has 1st 3 bosses down).

Call me a bald-faced liar all you want, but it IS the truth. And I know at least a dozen others that have similar situations.

And yes, I've pugged KZ quite a few times too, though I prefer the 150min guild runs.

[Aerath]

Spending "a couple of hours a day" is SO out of the question as that would seriously alienate me from my dear wife and my little boy. Not to mention how my chores would start piling up.

Been there, done that, NOT worth it.


And there's your conscious decison. I do appreciate you illustrating my point though. :flowers:

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

heh, I barely have the time any more to do the minimum arena matches I need with my 2v2 team... and since we divide all the matches up, that's 5 matches.... in 7 days....

[TPMdm]

....
And how do you know norm? Statistics? What you see? Friends? Describe your definition of norm before you think of mentioning it. There are far more people than just 20 people. Raiding is fine. In fact, raiding is easier in TBC than pre-TBC. And you can easily get gear from heroics too to make the gear preparation for higher level raids easier.
......

I don't know you gave 2 examples he gave 20. :rolleyes:

Let's.

Heroics nerfed to hell.
Karazhan nerfed to hell.
SSC + TK nerfed to hell.

Karazhan attunement dropped.
SSC/TK attunement dropped.
MH/BT attunement dropped.

Freeby BT-quality epics. Ez-moad PvP epics -> impossible to *not* gear up to an acceptable Karazhan level......

Doesn't that imply that Blizzard saw things that needed fixing and fixed them? Btw what you call "nerfed to hell" many would call adjusted for the casual gamer. Your post smacks of the exact elitism and hardcore player attitude the OP feels Blizzard caters to. I fail to see why T6 Geared players get all up in arms when various progression dungeons get eased, y'all don't go there anyway so why can't I have a crack at it now that you've "been there done that" when it was "hard"?

The op was asking a legit question and gets bombarded with "QQ more nub" style posts. Is that what discussion has degraded to on this board?

[elsegundo]

After reading numerous articles in places like Gamespot.com about the upcoming MMO's like AoC and WAR and how they will affect WoW I happened to discover a common theme. The #1 beef most of these people had was one you've heard many times before - That the culmination of this game's story as well as the best item drops are in the end-game raids but only a small % of subscibers get to experience any of it. Forget Sunwell Plateau, most of the players don't even set foot in Kara. It's not by choice most of the time either. Another gripe I've heard often is that if you mention PuGing Kara or later you get laughed out of the room :laugh: You need to be in a raid guild, need to be able to get a raid slot from them and you need to be available for many, many time sinks.
WAR in particular is said to have paid particular heed to this complaint and have avoided the time and effort costly requirements of WoW-style raids so as not to alienate such a massive % of the playerbase, can't speak for AoC because I don't know but I've heard rumours it may be bad too. So the question is, will Blizzard step up to the plate and quit making the end game raids so unaccessable for so many people?Why do you care so much about blizz? who cares. if WAR becomes a better game then go play that. i know i would if i tried it and liked it better than WoW. and if AoC is better then sure, i'll move on over. so i dont see how blizzard's problem has now turned into my problem, or your problem, or pretty much anyone else's problem. i dont even know if this is really a problem. i honestly have way too much stuff to do in this game than to deal with kara. and the sunwell? most people go there for the dailies. you can do the "endgame" thing if you want, but i've found that this game has so many other things that the thing you call "endgame" is simply a small part of what i can do in this game. many of my guildies run kara (organized with some random puggers), but i decide not to join them due to time restraints (and dont think because i said that many of my guildies run kara, that it is the majority of the gamers, no, in fact, about 10% of my guild run kara, and another 20% might want to but isnt going to make it a priority). in fact, i dont feel like i've missed out at all since i also have other things to do in this game besides raid. i see that if Blizz isnt going to do anything about their raid "issue", then let the small % of lazy folks switch to WAR or AoC. in this game, you have to work for better stuff, and it doesnt always include kara, or sunwell, or whatever other end game raid. however, it does require work, and there are so many ways in this game to "work" for better things, you wont run out of things to do for a long time, kara/zulaman/sunwell/whateverotherraidyouwanttomentionhere does not need to be the end. i find those games where everyone progreses to the same end very boring.

/wall of text.

[mesonm]

I've taken 23 days /played getting my main and very first character (druid) to L70 over the course of about 2 years. After that it took me 3 days /played to do BGs and quests to get Heroic/Kara ready. Last weekend I got my last piece. In the mean time I was able to tank a handful heroics that netted me 6-ish badges of justice. I also got most of the gear enchanted with the best or second best enchants (+6 stats on chest, +35 agi on weapon, nethercleft leg armor, but +10 sta armor kits on gloves and the 2-Holy Dust enchant on shoulders for instance).

I did this with:
30 minutes every weekday at lunch time
one "dungeon fridaynight" a week

Spending "a couple of hours a day" is SO out of the question as that would seriously alienate me from my dear wife and my little boy. Not to mention how my chores would start piling up.

Been there, done that, NOT worth it.

Off course, I'm now really looking forward to setting foot in Kara :grin:.

He said "spending a couple of hours ON a day"....not EVERY day, or your incorrect quote of "a couple of hours a day".

You can go to kara your first day you are a 70, if you want to do so. Sure, you won't be geared in the great stuff, but you won't be a slouch either.

Many people have so many epics in the gear that if you are the only greened out person, your team won't even notice, unless you are either a healer or a tank.

As a feral druid, you could easily go as dps for the first few times.

[Kasal]

Two points have I:

1) I have 3 level 70 toons, and am working on my 4th. All of my gear, on all of my toons, is green. I don't raid, I don't group, I quest. And I quest alone. It has never been an issue for me that I don't have the best gear, although I will drool with envy whenever I inspect a fellow Horde member decked out in Tier whatever from head to toe. In any case, the gear I own works fine for my purposes, and the game is still a hoot for me.

I seldom have more than 2 hours in a row when I am guaranteed to be uninterrupted, and I'm certain I'm not alone. That puts most instances and raids out of reach for me. And even if I had more time, the idea of spending three to eight mind-numbing hours running an instance on the 1 in 5 to 1 in 25 chance that I'll get that purple item I need, is completely unappealing. Top gear is accessible to everyone? I question that.

2) I think the OP had a valid statement, and I didn't see him insulting anyone or being disrespectful. Unfortunately that can't be said for many of the responses that followed. You ever notice how the people who get most upset about flaming and ignorance are the ones who possess those same qualities in the greatest abundance?

[LunarSolaris]

I think there is a balance to be had here...

I think some of you are clearly overstating the "simplicity" of access to many players (i.e. raiding, etc.).

I think some of you are overstating the "difficulty" of finding groups and raiding.

The reality of this game (and any other MMORPG for that matter) is that it's a time sink. It does take a reasonable amount of time to get a character leveled up - and then more time to "gear up" that character. The differentiation between "casual" and "hardcore" is tremendously subjective in nature.

In the end, it doesn't take a lot of effort to find a group/guild to get into places like Karazhan - but it does take time to do it. Some people have the time to do it - other's don't. Some people know better where to look while other's don't.

Just some extra thoughts to chew on.

EDIT: And I will add that I do agree with what was recently stated - that some of the responses do have a tinge of elitism to them.

[Leviathonlx]

Two points have I:

1) I have 3 level 70 toons, and am working on my 4th. All of my gear, on all of my toons, is green. I don't raid, I don't group, I quest. And I quest alone. It has never been an issue for me that I don't have the best gear, although I will drool with envy whenever I inspect a fellow Horde member decked out in Tier whatever from head to toe. In any case, the gear I own works fine for my purposes, and the game is still a hoot for me.

I seldom have more than 2 hours in a row when I am guaranteed to be uninterrupted, and I'm certain I'm not alone. That puts most instances and raids out of reach for me. And even if I had more time, the idea of spending three to eight mind-numbing hours running an instance on the 1 in 5 to 1 in 25 chance that I'll get that purple item I need, is completely unappealing. Top gear is accessible to everyone? I question that.

2) I think the OP had a valid statement, and I didn't see him insulting anyone or being disrespectful. Unfortunately that can't be said for many of the responses that followed. You ever notice how the people who get most upset about flaming and ignorance are the ones who possess those same qualities in the greatest abundance?

I tend to post mean towards those that apply to the site just to post a whine topic.

[Ash Housewares]

you don't want to add to the game, you want to take away from the game, in order to make those that cannot participate feel less left out?

I vote no

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

For me, it is simple:

I don't have the time to devote to most 5-man instances, much less a raid instance.

Sure, I could potentially have the time to do it, but real life emergencies crop up a lot for me, and real life > WoW in my book. As such, there would be innumerable times where I have to quit in the middle of the instance or raid, and I don't like putting people on the spot to look for a replacement for me when it happens -- because I don't like it when people do that to me. So, I avoid it entirely.

I actively seek to avoid doing raid instances.

Mainly because I had been burned out so thoroughly in the past on the "raiding experience". Not so much the raids, the content, the challenge... those things I can completely understand. I was burned out on the inevitable, and consistent set of attitudes, personalities, and conflicts that arise around raiding. It isn't the raiding I particularly dislike, it is the way I've seen it affect people -- I'm tired of the conflicts that inevitably arise. I'm just not a big fan of conflict between people, and putting myself willingly into a situation where that happens... I think I'd derive more pleasure from peeling off my fingernails with a piece of glass.

As such, raiding is just plain not interesting to me... at all.

Because of points 1 and 2, I don't personally see the appeal to raids, for me. I understand others like them, I understand people get a kick out of them. But for me, there is a lot of a "been there, done that" sense of boredom from the idea... As much as it might be intriguing to see the inside of a raid instance, there is far more of a desire to not get entangled in the political maneuvering, bickering, and in-fighting over loot, position, pecking order, or what have you which I've seen. I also have no desire to join a group I cannot guarantee I have the time to offer for the full period, as I don't like leaving friends, or even just group-mates in general hanging.

That said, the OP is delusional if he truly believes what he wrote. Raiding is actually very casual-friendly any more, short of the newest, biggest instance... but I think that should be the case. People who really want to be on the cutting edge in the game, work for it. Everyone else can enjoy the game in so many different ways... that it shouldn't be a big deal to them.

[Aerath]

Doesn't that imply that Blizzard saw things that needed fixing and fixed them? Btw what you call "nerfed to hell" many would call adjusted for the casual gamer. Your post smacks of the exact elitism and hardcore player attitude the OP feels Blizzard caters to. I fail to see why T6 Geared players get all up in arms when various progression dungeons get eased, y'all don't go there anyway so why can't I have a crack at it now that you've "been there done that" when it was "hard"?

The OP asked whether Blizzard did anything about Raid Issues. My answer illustrated they did.

I don't mind nerfing, I don't mind removing attunements - I'm all in favour of the latter even. Nerfing is fine up to some point. I personally appreciated the challenge when Heroics were harder than their respective normal version.
I understand this may not be for everyone.

Whether what they (Blizzard) did is within your taste or not - you can't refute the fact that they have made raiding more accessible and easy step by step over time.

In fact, the only thing you, as a player, need these days is have the time and drive to raid. If you have the drive, you can organise your time easily enough to fit in to raiding at least once or twice per week, which is enough to hit Karazhan.

Need to do chores ? Do them on another time.
Need to keep the wife happy ? Give her some flowers and tell her to catch the lady's night on whatever channel it is that broadcast's Desperate Housewives etc. She can watch the TV undisturbed for a couple hours, you play a computer game. Everyone happy.

[Pharoahe]

Ive not gone through the whole thread, but some of the replys have been harsh and overly rude. Personally i find it very hard to even go Kara. There are many social / family guilds who just find it impossible to recruit enough people to progress. And people might love guilds like mine for the great social atmosphere but many of them leave shortly after level 70 and join raid guilds. So as an individual I'd say its pretty easy to go to Kara, but as social guild not so easy. We have about 30 level 70s, but even thats not enough for us....Ive been invited to many Kara guilds, as have most of my guildies. So as a casual its still not that easy to go. However I cant QQ about it, because if i really wanted to go, I could.

However to say WAR is not PvP is a joke. I hardly see any PvE worthy content in there. The fact that it will not have PvE realms just cuts itself off from a large % of carebears like me.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

In fact, the only thing you, as a player, need these days is have the time and drive to raid. If you have the drive, you can organise your time easily enough to fit in to raiding at least once or twice per week, which is enough to hit Karazhan.

Need to do chores ? Do them on another time.
Need to keep the wife happy ? Give her some flowers and tell her to catch the lady's night on whatever channel it is that broadcast's Desperate Housewives etc. She can watch the TV undisturbed for a couple hours, you play a computer game. Everyone happy.

That, of course, is a matter of priority. For me, WoW is entertainment, and therefore a low priority. God, family, work, school, my home... these all take priority over entertainment. When I don't have other responsibilities taking my time, then I have time for entertainment... to relax, etc.

But, I understand there are people who prioritize WoW and such higher in their life.

[Leviathonlx]

The OP asked whether Blizzard did anything about Raid Issues. My answer illustrated they did.

I don't mind nerfing, I don't mind removing attunements - I'm all in favour of the latter even. Nerfing is fine up to some point. I personally appreciated the challenge when Heroics were harder than their respective normal version.
I understand this may not be for everyone.

Whether what they (Blizzard) did is within your taste or not - you can't refute the fact that they have made raiding more accessible and easy step by step over time.

In fact, the only thing you, as a player, need these days is have the time and drive to raid. If you have the drive, you can organise your time easily enough to fit in to raiding at least once or twice per week, which is enough to hit Karazhan.

Need to do chores ? Do them on another time.
Need to keep the wife happy ? Give her some flowers and tell her to catch the lady's night on whatever channel it is that broadcast's Desperate Housewives etc. She can watch the TV undisturbed for a couple hours, you play a computer game. Everyone happy.

I think some people just need to take a step back and look at how vanilla WoW was again and then they would realize how much more casual friendly TBC was at release and how much more so it is now.

Of course there will always be a part of the game that is meant for the most hard core of players but thats how many MMO's are. Even WAR will probably have its own little thing that only the most hardcore of players can accomplish.

I don't see many rude comments either but rather people who like me are just tired of these kind of topics as they got old 2 years ago.

[clevins]

Ive not gone through the whole thread, but some of the replys have been harsh and overly rude. Personally i find it very hard to even go Kara. There are many social / family guilds who just find it impossible to recruit enough people to progress. And people might love guilds like mine for the great social atmosphere but many of them leave shortly after level 70 and join raid guilds. So as an individual I'd say its pretty easy to go to Kara, but as social guild not so easy. We have about 30 level 70s, but even thats not enough for us....Ive been invited to many Kara guilds, as have most of my guildies. So as a casual its still not that easy to go. However I cant QQ about it, because if i really wanted to go, I could.

However to say WAR is not PvP is a joke. I hardly see any PvE worthy content in there. The fact that it will not have PvE realms just cuts itself off from a large % of carebears like me.

But again... that's your choice as a guild. You could EASILY gear up enough to do Kara and recruit enough people. AS individuals, you all choose to stay in that guild vs moving on. All of that is fine... but don't blame the game for the choices you make. Getting geared for Kara is easy, getting 10 people (even if it's a PUG) is easy. Easier for some than others, but at this point, easy.

I don't feel any of the replies are elitist or rude btw... I do feel they're saying 'less QQ' because this cry of "oh poor me, I only play a few hours a week and I'll not see Illidan' is getting a bit old, esp with all of the accomodations that have been made over the last year for people in that situation.

Xlorep - EXACTLY! You choose your priorities and are comfortable with them. /applaud. Most people have a ton of free time - that's not the issue. It's how they manage it and what they choose to do with it. If they want to prioritize WoW, they can do that usually. If they don't want to (play with kids > WoW for example) great. But the resulting inability to raid deeply is a consequence of their choice (or for some, their situation, e.g. people working 70 hours a week, etc) and they need to own that consequence.

[Pharoahe]

But again... that's your choice as a guild. You could EASILY gear up enough to do Kara and recruit enough people. AS individuals, you all choose to stay in that guild vs moving on. All of that is fine... but don't blame the game for the choices you make. Getting geared for Kara is easy, getting 10 people (even if it's a PUG) is easy. Easier for some than others, but at this point, easy.

I don't feel any of the replies are elitist or rude btw... I do feel they're saying 'less QQ' because this cry of "oh poor me, I only play a few hours a week and I'll not see Illidan' is getting a bit old, esp with all of the accomodations that have been made over the last year for people in that situation.

.

Hmm well my complaint is about the guild system in general, I wish there was more rewards for loyalty ya know?
We are all easily well geared for Kara. The problem is getting enough healers and tanks to join our guild. Its very very difficult on our realm which is a very old and established one, most people are set in their guilds. Its a big problem for new guilds on our realm. Hell we're a year old with 150 members, but dont have enough healers for Kara. We've been actively recruiting for one for about 3 weeks.

I was talking about the first reply really, which was a bit rude tbh.

[clevins]

Hmmm - maybe get some folks to respec for raids and help them out with gear? Or PUG the tank/healer? You only need 1 tank, an OT and 2 healers... if you have someone to tank heroics and heal them you're literally 1/2 way there.

[Pharoahe]

Hmmm - maybe get some folks to respec for raids and help them out with gear? Or PUG the tank/healer? You only need 1 tank, an OT and 2 healers... if you have someone to tank heroics and heal them you're literally 1/2 way there.

Yeah We'd be fine if i could convince a couple to respec, im working on it atm in fact lol.

[Aerath]

That, of course, is a matter of priority. For me, WoW is entertainment, and therefore a low priority. God, family, work, school, my home... these all take priority over entertainment. When I don't have other responsibilities taking my time, then I have time for entertainment... to relax, etc.

But, I understand there are people who prioritize WoW and such higher in their life.

Of course. I don't aim to take away from that - it's a conscious decision you made and one you don't regret.

Should you happen to change your mind or, say, finish school and not find a job straight away to fill the free time, that might change. You may decide to, instead of going to see a movie on thursdays, play some WoW instead.

It's an option you have, not one you necessarily have to take.

But, as you rightly said, it's your choice and within your ability to change it - should you wish to do so.

I think that goes for most people - it is within their ability, should they wish to do so.

[Xlorep DarkHelm]

Of course. I don't aim to take away from that - it's a conscious decision you made and one you don't regret.

There is nothing to regret. I know what I've chosen for my personal priorities in life, and I am quite content with it. :)

It is funny to see people who aren't content with it, but then complain that nobody is doing anything about it, when they themselves are the masters of setting what really matters most to least in their lives.

Should you happen to change your mind or, say, finish school and not find a job straight away to fill the free time, that might change. You may decide to, instead of going to see a movie on thursdays, play some WoW instead.

I work full-time, at a very nice job, as a database developer. I'm merely going to school to get the piece of paper that says I know what I already know (and have been in the workforce doing for oh, a decade and a half), so I can bolster a resume a little if I ever need it. When I finish school, I am not hunting for a job, I already have one that could easily become a career if I want it to be.

I also don't go out to a movie... really at all. I tend to loathe being at a theater, so unless the movie is really good, I don't go there. Honestly, I do spend a lot of my free time playing WoW -- it is very cost-effective as far as entertainment goes.

It's an option you have, not one you necessarily have to take.

Good enough. Personally, I'm left with not being able to afford letting WoW take priority over real life. It is a nice little escape, something to help relax with, but it most definitely is nothing I ever let interfere with anything else going on in my life... just like watching TV/movies, playing other video games... They are entertainment, and always take one of the lowest priorities in my life.

But, as you rightly said, it's your choice and within your ability to change it - should you wish to do so.

I think that goes for most people - it is within their ability, should they wish to do so.

True enough. If someone wishes to put WoW at a higher priority in their life, it is their decision. Further, every decision like that will come with consequences in one form or another. Taking responsibility for your actions, accepting the consequences of your actions, as far as I'm concerned, is one of those key things that shows a certain level of maturity in a person :)

[Immortus]

2) I think the OP had a valid statement, and I didn't see him insulting anyone or being disrespectful. Unfortunately that can't be said for many of the responses that followed. You ever notice how the people who get most upset about flaming and ignorance are the ones who possess those same qualities in the greatest abundance?

thank you
The op was asking a legit question and gets bombarded with "QQ more nub" style posts. Is that what discussion has degraded to on this board?
and thank you as well.

to those who posted helpful insights and reassured some of my concerns, thank you all as well.

for the others who felt the need to flame, well thank you as well for the entertainment. Other than that, I'll let this thread run its own course because of the above quoted reasons. These boards dont seem to hold the same community spirit they did when I used to play last and resemble the official boards more closely now (special thanks to the mods there), but it's good to see there were a few helpful souls still kicking around.

[elsegundo]

i dont think anyone was flaming really. if you call that flaming then sure, anyone who disagrees with you is a flaming troll, and all those who agree with you are basically helping you pat yourself on the back. there's a disconnect here.

[Leviathonlx]

thank you

and thank you as well.

to those who posted helpful insights and reassured some of my concerns, thank you all as well.

for the others who felt the need to flame, well thank you as well for the entertainment. Other than that, I'll let this thread run its own course because of the above quoted reasons. These boards dont seem to hold the same community spirit they did when I used to play last and resemble the official boards more closely now (special thanks to the mods there), but it's good to see there were a few helpful souls still kicking around.

You have only shown that you believe anyone who disagrees with you is a flaming troll and everyone who agrees with you is perfect in your mind.

[Immortus]

If I were the only one who noticed, you might have a point. let it drop, I said I would.

[kodeeak]

I think it really comes down to what server you play on and your ingame personality. I really started playing wow post-bc and was on a low pop server and hated it. I found the mentality to be similar to your first post by many people on the server. PUG's would go until the second or third wipe and then would fall apart and most attitudes were negative all around. I damn near quit playing because I thought to myself.. why do all these people play if they're not happy with the game?

I then switched to a server that was much more progressed, got into a kara guild by just asking around and being my usual goofy self and a few months later was progressing through T5 and ultimately T6 raids. The mentality was different, nobody really complained (aside from normal guild drama), and we had a good time playing. I also noticed the amount if time I was spending on the pc started getting lower and lower week by week. Nowadays, I spend 3 nights a week on wow for 3-4 hours clearing all T6 level raids and progressing through sunwell.. while keeping a wife and 3 kids happy, and a 70-person company running.

People from all walks of life enjoy the game, time spent in-game purely depends on your ability to balance your game time (ie- addictive personality) with your RL obligations and I don't think it would be a stretch to say that many people aren't able to do that. If you're not happy playing you can quit the game, reroll, transfer your toon, or just change focus. But I don't think it's blizzard's problem.. I think its our own problem and constant lust for the next best thing (be it in WoW or in the gaming community in general).

[Findariel]

Well I DO agree with the OP.

The hardest thing in WoW isn't bosses, levelling, farming/grinding, but getting into a guild that actually wants to and can progress through the game.

Many people who may be dedicated are having a very hard time getting organized - the real challenge is getting 25 people to be available a few days a week for 4 hours at the same days, same time.

And that challenge is just too much for most players. Some may work irreguilar shifts, or aren't available at reguilar 18:00-24:00 raid times, and usually people are dispersed into small guilds with not enough geared people but with friends and family among their guildies.

That's the thing that's stopping people from seeing the best part of the game. If end-game instances were like 10-mans it would be already a lot better.
25-mans is just too high a limit, organisational-wise

[Twoflower]

to sum it up :

it is a choice.

either you priorise WoW raiding over some things you do in RL and become a reliable raid member, or you priorise RL and dont become a reliable raid member.

you can only have one. you have to choose for yourself. after you did choose, i dont wanna hear any complains. if you didnt choose yet, i dont wanna hear any complains.

[clevins]

Findariel,

You don't have to raid 6 hours a day or 5 days a week - look at the poster above you. What you DO need to do is decide that you want to raid. People who say they want to raid... but refuse to leave the little guild with a few friends in it that's not interested in recruiting SAY they want to raid but they don't. More precisely, they don't want to raid enough to leave that small guild for a larger one or work to get that guild ready to raid.

25 people isn't that much harder than 10... if you WANT to raid. But most people will not set aside 2-4 nights a week for 2-4 hours a night to do it. Some small number can't... and those I have sympathy for, but I don't see anything that the game can do for them.

[Leviathonlx]

Well I DO agree with the OP.

The hardest thing in WoW isn't bosses, levelling, farming/grinding, but getting into a guild that actually wants to and can progress through the game.

Many people who may be dedicated are having a very hard time getting organized - the real challenge is getting 25 people to be available a few days a week for 4 hours at the same days, same time.

And that challenge is just too much for most players. Some may work irreguilar shifts, or aren't available at reguilar 18:00-24:00 raid times, and usually people are dispersed into small guilds with not enough geared people but with friends and family among their guildies.

That's the thing that's stopping people from seeing the best part of the game. If end-game instances were like 10-mans it would be already a lot better.
25-mans is just too high a limit, organisational-wise


Currently my guild is working on the Eredar Twins and all I do is raid 3 nights a week from 7 EST till 12 EST and for the other 2 raid days am not home from work till the raid is half done.

Thats not that much time I have to spend to raid and it isn't that much of a challenge. It just takes people who are willing to spend that time.