The Decline and Fall of Low Level Instancing

[surodat]

The other day I was in a pug for Blood Furnace while leveling my hunter (now just past 62). I was invited as the fifth into a group with limited crowd control, but who said that the level 70 warrior would be able to handle the instance. After wiping three times on trash before the first boss, I left the group.

Before I left, (read: the reasons why I left) I noticed that the 70 warrior was still sporting a bunch of level 60 blues, yet had three parts of the Season 1 set. The warrior didn't know how to tank, and I, as a level 62 hunter, was out-damaging her. The practice of holding aggro on multiple mobs and the concept of line-of-sight pulls were both new to her.

This example is not an isolated occurrence, but seems to illustrate the confluence of annoyances that have become part of the experience of low-level instancing.

Of course the players that have leveled a few 'toons to 70, and have played through the low-level instances multiple times, are bored with them. After running through SFK 60-80 times, there's really nothing interesting about it. If you're just trying to get a new 'toon up to 70, you know how the group dynamic works, and you're just trying to breeze through the lower levels, you might as well get some help right?

The unfortunate by-product is that those people who are new to Wow experience dungeons as a super-easy fast run, without learning how to actually participate in an instance. This also applies to those who are learning a particular role for the first time (as I am doing with my druid tank right now.) As a tank in WC I had to sit backseat to 3 70s in a row over the course of a week. How does this allow you to learn a role?

'Surodat,' you say, 'why are you joining groups that have 70s in them if you want to run the instance the way it was meant to be run?' Good point. The unfortunate problem is that far too often the only choice available at certain times is a group with a 70 in it, or one of the following occurs:

"This is taking too long, let me get on my 70."
"I have a 70 who can replace the afk'er"

-- k I have to cut this short, I'll finish off my qq in a bit, I've just got to get back to work --

Addition:

I was going to get around to this with more convincing, but I'm pressed for time so I'm just gonna get to the point.

Since, from my experience, most people are not even starting to learn their classes until they get to 60 (or in some cases 70) and the actual multi-player experience at lower levels is so far removed from the actual game, I would respectfully submit that with the introduction of the expansion pack there should be a way to create a higher level character. (In addition to the Death Knight)

If a fruitful multi-player experience cannot be found at lower levels anymore, simply because veterans are forced to replay them over and over, why not allow a short-cut for veterans to skip over content they have already played hundreds of times. I think this would end up benefiting everyone.

[det]

Obviously there is the shortcut of less xp needed / faster xp between 20 and 60 and obviously you don't have to do any Instances. I levelled to 60 pretty much outside dungeons in WoW and found my role inside the MC BWL raids. Okay..so I am dps...that isn't hard.

Low level dungeons don't start with Ramparts or BF, true...it is wven worse with SFK as you say. However I have experienced other things to add: We recently got 4 new players to the guild. After rushing them in RFC, SFK and RFK they enjoyed it so much that they now form their own and "proper lv" groups. I on the other hand have to learn healing right inside Karazhan, because I do not seem to find groups to anything "normal". Everyone seems to rush to heroics right away and I wonder if I learn healing in a heroic PuG or just coping with a nervous breakdown.

Being in T6...too many tanks and dps are sick of heroics already :(

[MrBCorp]

...
Since, from my experience, most people are not even starting to learn their classes until they get to 60 (or in some cases 70) and the actual multi-player experience at lower levels is so far removed from the actual game, I would respectfully submit that with the introduction of the expansion pack there should be a way to create a higher level character. (In addition to the Death Knight)

If a fruitful multi-player experience cannot be found at lower levels anymore, simply because veterans are forced to replay them over and over, why not allow a short-cut for veterans to skip over content they have already played hundreds of times. I think this would end up benefiting everyone.

That is a good idea. Perhaps another idea would be to do something similar to what they've done with BG's, ie, allow them to be cross-server. This would bring up new problems (such as the old big dungeons being locked to people/groups, but I'm confident that could be overcome.

[mmorpg man]

the problem I found with my priest is that I was invited to dungeons at a lower than average level. so for example I went into BRD at level 49 because there was nobody else to heal for the group. this was fine untill I had done it a few times so when I got to the right level for the instance I had already cleared it and got all the loot I needed for it.

I think being allowed to skip levels would be a nice idea to try out.

[surodat]

Det brings up an interesting point: that the 'gap' right between hitting 70 and doing heroics, is filled not by doing level 70 instances, but by PVP. So again, we have pressure against learning how to properly instance just so that you can gear up.

[Twoflower]

i think alot comes down to the expectations you have to the new players.

i am a pve freak. i love doing instances. i play since release and i leveled a tank, a healer and a damage dealer to 70 and they all did mostly instances on their way there. They all raid and got at least into T5 instances. I know most bosses inside out and from all 3 views, which gives me a pretty good understanding of what is going on at any point.

surely, if i compare my experience to someone who started with BC, leveled only by solo grinding and questing, and does still not realy know what thread is, he looks like a pretty lousy player. There are applicants to my guild who wear T6 and still dont understand that you should move out of the blizzard or the consecration at council.

but what we forget is that it took us 3 or more years to get that experience and that we hace to teach new players. of course it is easier to kick the applicant, curse about the damn noobs taht dont know squat and finaly disband the guild cause none of the trial members lives up to the standarts we expect. This happened to 3 sunwell guilds on my server in the last 2 months. Old members burn out, new members can't hold up, everyone freaks out, kicks, leaves, gdisband, end of story. same thing that happened to DnT and all the big guilds that you were reading news about.

It is a matter of attitude. be nice to the new guys, teach them how to play. link them some forums they should read trough, tell them how to spec and what skills to use, where to stand, when to move etc. We all started at zero.


/Rant off

that all said, i like the idea of creating higher level chars once you have a max lvl char on your account.

[det]

that all said, i like the idea of creating higher level chars once you have a max lvl char on your account.

We do get that with the Deathknight...so I can see that very soon (in a patch maybe) happening with other characters, too.

Now I like to spice this thread up with the suggestion that I would have the option to say..."Sod it..I want to level my Deathknight from scratch..and from level 1". Really understand him and the talents as he evolves.

If you say that the questlines at 55 will be all I need to understand the class...well - then indeed this option should become applicable to ALL classes as soon as you have 1 lv 70 on your account. After all we had had three years to check out existing classes and if not play them, then at least see them in action. The DK is brand new and we are thrown into cold water right away...

[Twoflower]

actualy, just having a lvl 70 char isnt the right thing to judge. we would need a ingame test, sort of like a drivers license test. I know this wont happen but i think it would be a good idea.

i realy liked the way the old hunter and priest quests for the epic bow/staff form MC were designed. Not the grind for the eye of shadow, but the quest itself which showed all you need to know about your char aswell as testing some basic skills like kiting in the hunter quest.

But that is a old relict of the blizzard mentality of actualy asking for some skill. i wouldnt be surprised if we could create lvl 80 chars right away sometime soon.

[Pharoahe]

You know, I've been the GM of a medium sized (160 toons/100 accounts) guild for a year now, and in the last 7-8 months I have noticed a massive drop in;
a) the skill of new players
b) the personality of new players

I find that the majority of the newer players on my realm tend to expect boosts, despite the ease of leveling & by the time they get to level cap, they have no idea how to play. And they throw temper tantrums when they dont get what they want. I taught a Level 70 hunter from my guild how to trap in Shadow Labs...he had power level'd himself to 70 in about 6 weeks of first getting the game. It was a guild run, but we had a PuG tank, and I felt truely embarrased at the hunters skill.
My guild has pretty strict rules now on who we invite & a no boosting policy. I've been playing WoW for only 14-15 months, yet within this time (on my realm atleast) doing instances while leveling has really become a thing of the past, except for when begging for boosts. My guild has decided to call it a day, with most of our officers leaving WoW for the summer, the dip in players skills & personalitys (they tend to be very selfish now) has left alot to be desired for a social guild like us. When we first started the guild, we all level'd up together and did everything for each other. We became amazing friends & would go out of our way to help each other out. The newer players we invited just don't understand this bond or any social aspect of an MMO. Add this to their lack of skill...well we just decided our guild should go out on a happy note with a good reputation.

[Twoflower]

We became amazing friends & would go out of our way to help each other out. The newer players we invited just don't understand this bond or any social aspect of an MMO. Add this to their lack of skill...well we just decided our guild should go out on a happy note with a good reputation.

that is exactly what i said... it is your attitude, not the new players.

but what we forget is that it took us 3 or more years to get that experience and that we have to teach new players. of course it is easier to kick the applicant, curse about the damn noobs taht dont know squat and finaly disband the guild cause none of the trial members lives up to the standarts we expect. Old members burn out, new members can't hold up, everyone freaks out, kicks, leaves, gdisband, end of story.

It is a matter of attitude. be nice to the new guys, teach them how to play. link them some forums they should read trough, tell them how to spec and what skills to use, where to stand, when to move etc. We all started at zero.

this counts for ingame skills aswell as for social skills. i hope you dont realy expect a new guy to fit into your group of friends that you were forming for years now. Small groups inside a guild can be a real killer.

YOU need to be open and helpful, even after years and years of teaching newbies the same thing over and over again.

[Pharoahe]

hmmm well I'd like to give a more open picture of what my guild is, to show you that the newer players simply don't match in quality.
Our guild has always been open to inviting any friendly players, and some of our best friends within the guild joined much later. Infact we have officer's who joined in December. We don't discriminate against new players; we do however require them to be *friendly*, a key aspect to any social guild. If you make friends in our guild, you become a senior member pretty fast.

However over the last few months this has not been the case. The majority of newer players coming in (and for a non raiding guild, our bread and butter has always been having fresh blood in the guild, and having fun showing them the ropes) have all been "bost plox" "gief gold" types, and don't even say as much as "hi" when logging on before begging for something. This usually would not really effect us, because we had a solid base of friends and players within the guild. However, we tend to find most level 70s move on after a few months (to Kara guilds). Again this was not a problem, we always had good new friends coming up. But now with another large chunk leaving for the summer, we have maybe 3 Senior members left.

Dont get me wrong, no ones bitter. All good things come to an end. But IMHO the new players don't seem to be pulling their weight. We've always been accomodating to new players (to a fault some might say) but we really do enjoy helping newbies, its practically what our guild is about. Basically we always offered to help new players & in return we expect a nice mature social atmosphere; give and take. The newer players only seem to understand the "take" aspect.

[det]

Pharoahe's observations are backed up day by day with the increasing spam in trade "WTB Boost in xxxx, paying xxx". Some people you see there on a daily base.

Have to say that was pretty unheard of on my server pre-TBC. (but you also had a more active low level "community"). It may just be that some players want to find company for Instances that are no longer done....but the never ask for same lv players..it is always boosts.

As early as RFC btw....

[Pharoahe]

I've actually been dual boxing these days (Lv70 Rogue, boosting my low level druid). I find it pretty damn boring, so I'll always throw out a message in trade so I can have some company. Usually along the lines of "3 Boost spots open for SM, no payment. /w me for details". And I'll let them know I keep any loot for disenchanting, unless its a blue they need (In fact I'll let them have the blue drop, even if my druid could use it)
Usually I'll get about 10 replys within a minute and I can usually break it down to this

- 4 people will send me invites to a group without so much as a whisper.
- 3 people will insult me for my loot rules, and then still expect to be sent an invite
- 2 people will say nothing, but tag along. Then *anytime* I log in with my alt or main, I will be getting whispers from them begging for boosts & money, for the next few months.
- 1 person will be polite. We'll have a good time in the instance, a few laughs & hopefully I'll make a new friend.

10% is a pretty poor ratio.

[Twoflower]

10% is actualy far more than i expect ^^ out of the maybe 50 instance runs i did between lvl 60 and 70 with my priest i took 4 people on my friends list. Not specialy because they are that friendly, but rather because they actualy did a decent job at playing their class.

I know that the situation with new players aint that great. but if we resign looking for new friends we may as well stop playing the game.

[Urbanink]

on Khaz'Goroth (my server) you can usually find a pug for whatever H or normal 60+ instance within a hr tops.THe bad thing is no one ever (even if its dailies) want to take on the challenging H INstances such as SLabs or ShatHalls.OR if ur lucky to find a group you check the tanks HP and its at 8 k...ask if he is in DPS gear atm.." no man im ready to go"....yah...CYA ! I was lucky enough to join a guild that was just starting Heroics and i probably ran each one 5 times or so with them, they disbanded shortly after but i was descently geared by then (the odd crafted item was still necesary, or a pattern drop etc etc).But now i am safe in a Kara,ZA guild.

[Etrin]

Well I have a long list of what its like on the other side of your statements.

NOOB here

I started this game with a lock..pure solo leveling and he has been level 70 and unused for almost a year. THE ONLY instances he has been in was to get his epic mount and that was at level 70 begging for weeks to get someone to go to diremaul. Guilds...not another Fing lock...they are worse than huntards.
HELL man you don't have any epics and NO experience, sorry dude we need players not losers.

SO I set off to make another chr. I made a paladin...sure I can almost tank. Level 69 now...only instances was to get epic mount...have helped 4 others get there mount and had fun doing it.

In a guild and NEVER invited to do anything ....why...we have 18 level 70 paladins.

In a guild you are nothing till 70, thats ok. BUT what is missed is all the 70's run heroics and karazin etc. THEY ARE IN THEIR OWN WORLD...you don't exist as far as any of them are concerned. You look up and need an instance for rep. No one says a word. Later that day you see a lower doing that instance...why because he is the alt of a 70...they all run and help...you are not 70 so you don't exist.
I have seen this in 2 guilds now and although everyone is VERY friendly like I said until you are a 70 you don't exist. you are a noob.

pugs...no thanks I have tried and we have a warrior or a druid..
I begged for pugs but nothing. I guess I didn't beg enough.

Experience, its like the old saying you can't get it till you already have it.

======

Now I have a rogue to 58. Never been in an instance and never joined a guild.

I feel that the people who KNOW how to play don't give one damn to help or teach anyone who does not. Det was the first I have heard of that even took the time to tell a noob anything besides they were NOOBS.

[Twoflower]

too bad you have this experiance, Etrin. you just met the wrong people.

but it is only normal that the lvl 70 players are in a different world. we all are there, we all leveled and gained first experiance in pug's.

try to get into some groups. try to get into those runs they do with twinks. you will learn alot there. and if they will not take you at all, it is not the right guild for you.

[Janfader]

Last night i fought fist over foot with a lvl 70 pro pally unable to aggro mobs.. He has Righteous Def up and that was it. I then laid into him that he has other abilities to pull mobs to him if he losses aggro. He swore I was an idiot and he didn't have those skills/abilities. I then popped on my pally, whispered him and linked him the abilities. He eventually apologized... Then added me to his friends list.... and then asked if I could teach him how to tank. I did and made an evening out of it.

Never duel two pro pallys unless you want time to freeze. :-)

[Janfader]

Last night i fought fist over foot with a lvl 70 pro pally unable to aggro mobs.. He has Righteous Def up and that was it. I then laid into him that he has other abilities to pull mobs to him if he losses aggro. He swore I was an idiot and he didn't have those skills/abilities. I then popped on my pally, whispered him and linked him the abilities. He eventually apologized... Then added me to his friends list.... and then asked if I could teach him how to tank. I did and made an evening out of it.

Never duel two pro pallys unless you want time to freeze. :-)

[elsegundo]

This example is not an isolated occurrence, but seems to illustrate the confluence of annoyances that have become part of the experience of low-level instancing.


*Looks up: Confluence*

I run my friends through instances sometimes, but only so they can gear up and not to get free rides through the levels. The first guild i was in did this also, where the higher levels would have runthroughs of older content to get us good gear so we can level a bit faster, easily, or whatnot. i loved the idea and have been through maybe thre instances with them and loved it. now that im doing it for a new guild im in, i find that same attitude here. people thank me for running them through, they help me AoE mobs when i've gathered half the instance into a small corner, and they do not ask for runs. i really have to offer before someone takes me up on it. perhaps its just my server. i dont know.

but i do know a lot of people do not know how to play their class, and i try to help them. heck, a guildie just went leveling for days and went through maybe one guild-run instance, and is now in hfp trying to level. he's a lock and i'd have to say, he's gimping himself in his playstyle. i know because i also have a lock and i can level a lot faster with it. anyway, he's been through one guild event, and he still doesnt know how to play his class well. during his dreadsteed quest, i suggested that he drop the imp and enslave one of the demons. he had no idea how until halfway through the fight. he would constantly pull aggro, and he would stand in almost melee range firing at things (and the second lock in our group is a good 25 yards away from the mob).


switching gears a little, i find myself in almost the same situation as Pharoahe. my guild was very active during the spring, but has recently died down this summer due to several people leaving WoW, but will eventually come back. the guild leader himself has other obligations and needs to be away most of the time. he finds time to log on maybe several times a week late at night, just to chit chat. him and his gf will play again once fall starts.

there were several other people who also left for the summer, and will be returning to, quite possibly, a different guild. heck, some of the members even thought maybe we should join another guild, in which there will be 20 people i do not know. they say its a 50 member guild, and with that said, i know that maybe only 30% play at one time.

in any case, my guild leader even left the leadership of the guild to another in the guild. we're doing ok, but being a social guild, our livelihood does lie in recruitment. i do not see now what i saw when i first started, helpful guild members, donations to the bank, even healthy participation in the guild lottery. nowadays there are a few close members playing together, some helping out, even contributing to the chat, and others just log in, and silenty go about their business. some guys take from the guild bank constantly, and not say a single word. no hello, nothing. not even a request for a runthrough (shock).

i see this happening because a lot of people think guilds are there to help them through the process of playing the game, or that they need to be in a guild just in case they cannot find anyone to help them through an instance, and whats easier than to ask a guildie to join an instance when someone decides to "disconnect"? but i find that guilds are what people make of it. if they contribute to it often, they will get a lot more in return. that's the thing though, not a lot of recruits want to "give" anything. heck, even offer your 10-slot bags! someone will have good use for it! but i dont see this at all, and it seem to have lead to a decline in overall guild activity. some folks have left to join other guilds, while others, like myself, are waiting for the day these level 60's become level 70s and we can run some dungeons.

/rant
/blog

[clevins]

I agree with Twoflower basically.

Pharoahe - Well, yes you have people move on... if you don't do heroics and Kara, you'll see turnover among the 70s, esp the newer ones. They're not long time friends with you so they don't have that tie to the guild and they want to play, not sit around and chat. The solution isn't to open recruitment to every person who asks, but to 1) think about running some stuff so that people aren't handed a convenient reason to leave and 2) recruit more carefully. You should still have a basic app that allows you to screen out some of the most whiny people and you can have rules prominently stated about no boosts, no whining, no begging... and enforce them.

Elsegundo - To your point about people not giving to the guild... some people are takers. But others have no real attachment to the guild - they're new, they don't know anyone, so... And to reiterate my point above... you have to screen people and that means knowing what the guild wants. Do you want to run heroics? Kara? PvP? A lot of guilds advertise themselves a 'social' or 'family'... but don't really have a way to say what that means in game. All guilds have a social aspect... but what can I expect in terms of play? And the term family confuses me even more. People have explained is as 'we help each other' but that seems to devolve into 'higher levels help lower levels' vs 'we run stuff together.' And, as someone who has ground up gear on 2 70s, I really don't have a tolerance for people who won't farm primals for gear they can craft but instead want you to run them through Kara for gear.

Etrin - You're running into the fact that there are a LOT of max level players who've been 70 for long enough to get geared.... it's hard to match that when you first ding.... But you're playing RIGHT into the stereotype when you don't run instances. After all, look at it from the guild's perspective... you haven't learned to play in a group, you haven't gotten the gear you'd get from doing that... what do you really bring? And there's the chance that you're going to be the type who joins and says "who wants to run me through X so I can get gear?" which annoys the hell out of people. And, frankly, on your lock you could have tailored up some amazing gear... that you didn't was probably a negative indicator for some people.

Finally, I doubt new players are much worse now... but it's close to LK, we're bored, new players want to be 70 so they can hit Northrend, PUGs are a bit harder to get than when there were more players leveling up... This too shall pass and we'll be fine come WotLK.

[Justinledwards]

Do a deal with another 70 to take turns running your alts through stuff. I did that and it works well.

Myself and a couple of others have re-rolled on a new server, and i've brought my 2 70s across as did my wife. So we are taking turns boosting each other through instances, it works well.

It's funny about the lower levels though, My wifes first healing experience was a prep run through SP before karazhan, and her first tanking was SP then heroic underbog (after a few months of healing kara she had a bag full of tanking epics).

My warrior is nearly 50 and hasn't done a single even level run. Although I am thinking that Sunken Temple would be fun at a right level group.

[surodat]

After reading over all the responses, I'd like to throw out another thesis.

The reduced amount of experience needed per level at the lower levels has had a negative impact on the game. This reduced leveling time is one of the confluence of forces (:wink:elsegundo) that effects the negative change we see in instancing these days.

Everyone here seems to describe experiences that indicate until you hit level 70 the purpose of the game is to level. Everything in the environment supports these goals.

-You can't do the arena until level 70
-You can't participate in real instances until level 70
-You can't craft anything of importance until level 70
-You can't get any good loot until level 70
-You can't participate in real raids until level 70

While all these things would be true, even if the leveling speed had not been increased, the effect of these differences has been intensified.

It used to be that if you received a rare boss drop from an instance about your level, that item was valuable to you. It would last you a good number of levels and a good amount of time. Now that the leveling speed is faster, the actual amount of time that the item is useful has been decreased. This in fact makes the item less valuable and the desire to get the items is less.

If a player has access to a level 70 to run them through a instance to get the drops, then they will take that opportunity because there is little time invested, and the item will be useful for a while. However, why spend time finding a group and running the instance properly when the reward devalues so quickly?

If a quest reward, or crafted item (edit: or PVP reward, for that matter) that I can get in five level out performs the instance drop, why waste time getting the instance drop when I can level so quickly?

And if the lower levels are in effect just a race to 70 for all the experienced players, what kind of example are we giving to those people who are just starting out? Is the number of players that feel they deserve to be boosted and given gold just a side-effect of their perception that this behavior is required in the game? Why should they then abandon that behavior when they hit 70, since it's all they've ever experienced in the game?


edit
To twoflower:

I agree that teaching players is rewarding, yet there's something inherently absurd in teaching a level 70 warrior to tank in regular blood furnace.

The unfortunate situation is that either because of the deliberate actions of the developer, or the natural self-organizing structure of the community, new players are not learning to play at a regular pace, but through fitful jumps and starts.

I am starting to believe that a higher starting level, and a re-normalized leveling system would begin to address some of these issues.

[dwarfenhelm]

im not sure why a lvl 70 warrior cant do bf with just a healer backing him up. ive done this myself on my warrior helping a priest gear himself and i just bunged on dps gear 2 1h swords and stayed in zerker all dungeon with no wipes to the group.
but this point aside im not really into boosting people and very rarely take a boost myself. but when i hit 70 on my priest i found that finding pugs to gear up was a nightmare, i got most of my quests in dungeons done on heroic as i couldnt find groups for normal dungeons. and a fair few of these have been boosted in that a t5/6 tank has been in the group. being able to run a heroic with just renew is a bit of a dull run some times.
i really dont think a high starting lvl would solve this problem of players knowing how to play the game. yes it would make my life easier as like twoflower i have a t4/5 tank t4/5 hunter and a t4 priest so i know pretty much how any style of game play should be approached and i hate going from 1-30. but if more players could just skip tons of levels then i think the problems of player ability and attitude at lvl 70 would prob be worse than it is now

[MrBCorp]

The problem with finding groups now is similar with joining BG's back before the cross-server changes. That's why I suggested they could try the same with instances.

Basically the game's been geared more for solo play, but not everyone wants to play that way and it can be hard looking for like-minded people. I noticed the problem mid last year and it looks like it isn't any better (possibly worse). If that's the case I don't think I'll be returning soon.

My friend mentioned to me that PvP has kinda destroyed raiding and it looks like he's right. Blizzard need to address this.

[Twoflower]

new players are not learning to play at a regular pace, but through fitful jumps and starts.

that is not the games fault, but the new players fault.

i know the game inside out, but still, when i hit lvl 60 with a new char, i respec to the build i wanna play at 70 and hit rampards with a appropriate level group to learn to play my class.

the problem is with people who are too impatient to get to know their class. they rush to 70, only quest/grind, are too impatient to form a instance group. then at 70, the fastest way to get some beloved epics is to grind some honor and buy some wellfare epics.

then they apply to a raiding guild, leaving the leveling guild behind, and then they wonder why they dont understand squad of what is going on in the raid.

what i like specialy is when they even bring attitude into the group :)


but all in all, that is the impatience of the player, not the games fault. i think it is good that you can level faster and equip yourself faster these days.

[surodat]

The unfortunate situation is that either because of the deliberate actions of the developer, or the natural self-organizing structure of the community, new players are not learning to play at a regular pace, but through fitful jumps and starts.

that is not the games fault, but the new players fault.

I said that it could be both, like, half an inch to the left.

[Twoflower]

yeah i just wanted to specify that i dont think that the developers intentionaly lower the quality of new players. they just provide possibilities, it is up to the players what they do with them.

[MrBCorp]

yeah i just wanted to specify that i don't think that the developers intentionally lower the quality of new players. they just provide possibilities, it is up to the players what they do with them.

No it's not like they would intentionally do this, it's a by-product. They've adjusted the game so you can speed through it, this was to help the old players so they can level alts faster, as well as new players so they can reach the new stuff and play with everyone else. As a result, new players miss out on the learning curve.

[clevins]

No it's not like they would intentionally do this, it's a by-product. They've adjusted the game so you can speed through it, this was to help the old players so they can level alts faster, as well as new players so they can reach the new stuff and play with everyone else. As a result, new players miss out on the learning curve.

I'd edit the last sentence to read that they CHOOSE to miss out on the learning curve. YOu can still do instances (I did and was leveling a new alt under the new XP).

The new levelling doesn't make you be a sloppy player and while loot lasts less chronological time since you level faster, that STILL doesn't mean you have to skip instances as did a few people above. People choose to skip instances and not group - if they want that experience, they can still have it. I don't know if people are choosing to solo level more because of demographics (they're younger, older, etc etc) or because they know Lich King is upcoming and they want 70 more or because LK is coming and fewer longtime players are starting alts now or... what. For all I know the holiday ads drew a different kind of player and we're seeing those.

But whatever the reason I still can choose how to interact with them... or whether to. I don't have to boost them, I don't have to invite them to my guild, etc.

[Wintrow]

I've been gradually leveling up my druid since Oct 2005. Some time this year I finally dinged L70 and focused on getting geared up for heroics and karazhan. My goal was get to see as much of the raid contents of the game as possible.

To this end I left my casual leveling guild and joined a guild that was looking for a MT for their second kara-group.
"Goodie" I think, "that means that Gruul's and Mags will be next." And since those are essentially 1 or 2 boss dungeons with little to no trash I already saw me as 2nd tank in SSC and TK.

I was also thrilled to see the group calendar mod containing a healthy amount of events for me to sign up to.

Then last week, I logged in, waited for the sync and noticed nothing was planned. No Friday-night kara-attempts. Even group 1 at Wednesday-night was gone. Since then the guild has been eerily quiet except for one person saying "Why are so many ppl leaving?".

I promised to put in my best effort in this guild, but is wiping at Moroes as a new group is that discouraging...? Perhaps these new recruits expect to breeze through karazhan like they did through the L70 non-heroics versions? Is this somehow all related?

All I know is, last friday I tried to put together a group of my own and failed miserably (we called it halfway through our third attuman-trash clear to prevent us getting saved, ppl kept leaving, group slows down, trash respawns, ...). Then right after that I answer a "LF1M, at Curator" and we breeze right through to Prince (first time I've seen him, YAY, another checkmark on my list).

So if pugs are going better than guild-runs, what does that tell me :tongue:?

[Twoflower]

omg mate, get out of there as soon as you can ^^

i dont know about your server, but on my server there are dozends of kara pugs every week and i dont remember the last time i was in one which took more than 4 hours to clear the place. normal it is no more than 3.

your guild sounds horribly undergeared and not prepared at all... wiping on the trash to attumen ? oh the horror.

[det]

I tells me that the game is not the game that it was 15 months ago. Because 15 months ago a big chunk of the population started Kara and there was really no option than to wipe a month at Moroes and 2 more months at Aran (most of us were exhalted when we managed to do Opera^^)

These days there are many well geared players who also know how to play their alts and Kara runs can be done at decent speeds..even if you bring the odd guy in greens. Also T5 and T6 players will still happily go for 22 badges in 3 hours = either gear upgrade, vortexes or epic gems.

I jumped right from dinging 70 into one of those Kara runs to heal as second healer (ok..I also spend 2 days inbetween ding and Kara by levelling tailoring 1-375 and coming with 5 crafted healer epics...I know that I owe a certain prep to my friends)

However..not all of those players looking for quick epics and leaving your guild will have succeded in finding a better home...so do they leave the game or give up for lack of instant gratification?

[MrBCorp]

I'd edit the last sentence to read that they CHOOSE to miss out on the learning curve. YOu can still do instances (I did and was leveling a new alt under the new XP).

I suppose so. But finding groups to do an instance isn't always easy. In fact sometimes it's impossible. Not every server is a high-pop server and not everyone wants to do instances. Some prefer solo play, which makes finding groups even harder. I always found the LFG feature useless for lower level groups. It looks as if this game is turning into more of a solo-player (+ casual) friendly game now. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's affecting group-play.

[Torik]

I suppose so. But finding groups to do an instance isn't always easy. In fact sometimes it's impossible. Not every server is a high-pop server and not everyone wants to do instances. Some prefer solo play, which makes finding groups even harder. I always found the LFG feature useless for lower level groups. It looks as if this game is turning into more of a solo-player (+ casual) friendly game now. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's affecting group-play.

A lot of times it is not even whether you can find a group but whether you can find a group easily. If you try hard enough you can get a group together for any instance (though for some you have to do a lot of begging and arm twisting). However, at a certain point the bother of trying to get a group going is just not worth it. There is a ton of fun solo content available that does not require standing around for hours trying to find a healer or a tank to go with you.

When I was leveling my first characters I would put serious effort into finding groups for places like Mauradon or Sunken Temple. On my fourth alt I simply did not bother since it was no longer 'new content' and essentially adopted the attitude that if a group came my way I would do it but otherwise I was fine skipping it.

Personally I never found the BC instances to be as fun as the old world instances. The content is not that much different and the mobs are harder and less forgiving.

[Twoflower]

Personally I never found the BC instances to be as fun as the old world instances. The content is not that much different and the mobs are harder and less forgiving.

but that is what makes them at least a little bit challenging, which is = fun for me. :) plus the fights are more interesting than the usual tank & spank in the old world instances.

[Etrin]

new players so they can reach the new stuff and play with everyone else. As a result, new players miss out on the learning curve.

this is a very good statement and a reason that a lot of people have problems.

OK I am the level for this instance...BUT if I make that next level I will be more than ready to do it. NExt level...ok new instance, wait I haven't done that one either...oh to hell with it next level and I can do the next one.

REALLY are there too many instances in outlands?
There is an instance for each level....didn't see that in old world.

But I was always going to do something tomorrow, yep just level today and do that tomorrow. NEW INSTANCE...well maybe later, I don't want to look like a noob and cause a wipe. (this is right back to 4-5 more levels then do that one)

overall I agree that the game is more solo especially in old world...NO ONE does anything there but level to get to OL. OK I am in OL now...damn these mobs hit hard..I need better gear and weapons...someone help me..
WHY the game drops just did ....quest and get some...ok next level they are better quest some more.
Personally I didn't find squat in quest gear for a prot pally.
But that is what the game tells everyone quest and it shall be done.. you don't group quest, solo and get that gear, then when you get it you will be ready for an instance to get better gear.

[clevins]

I suppose so. But finding groups to do an instance isn't always easy. In fact sometimes it's impossible. Not every server is a high-pop server and not everyone wants to do instances. Some prefer solo play, which makes finding groups even harder. I always found the LFG feature useless for lower level groups. It looks as if this game is turning into more of a solo-player (+ casual) friendly game now. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think it's affecting group-play.

You're probably right - I was lucky in that several friends who are good playes decided to level new toons when I did, so we leveled together. Since one was leveling a tank and my priest could heal...