MaH TwInKaGe PrOjEcT

[Kiwago]

ok so I eventually wanna make a 19 twink, now by the time I'm ready to make a twink, I'll have good cash flow and a guildie with maxed out enchanting.
so I'm just curious what everyone thinks would be a sick twink thats not a rogue =P
by the way he's gotta be horde

[Mazhulsage]

No more twinks with WotLK.

[Kiwago]

No more twinks with WotLK.

what?!?!?!?!?!?!? did I miss something?

[Loryn]

what?!?!?!?!?!?!? did I miss something?

Yes. Blizzard is adding experience gain to pvp making twinks no longer viable.

[Kiwago]

Yes. Blizzard is adding experience gain to pvp making twinks no longer viable.

what kind of exp gain will it be?

[Mazhulsage]

Supposedly, based on how much help you give (Heals, killing blows, damage dealt, etc.) to the BG you'll get a small amount of exp. It won't be enough to make you go "Omg, let me BG to level 60." but it'll be a nice bit when you're trying to get items.

[snowieken]

I seem to have missed this. I loathe twinks, so before I become overcome with joy for nothing, is there a link supporting this bit of info?

[MrBCorp]

What the hell? Why are they taking away the twink?

[odinsnephew]

Unconfirmed rumours. They really wouldn't dare tbh ;)

[snowieken]

I thought so. Too bad. :)

[dgrampa]

Yeah, people need to get their facts straight before posting unconfirmed rumors. Everything about xp gain in BGs seems to be optional, as in daily quests. If you don't want to level, you don't have to. Also, there was a blue post within the last few weeks stating clearly that there will not be forced xp gain in BGs with the patch or the xpac.

[Cerberus]

It's confirmed. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

This does spell the end for the twinks, but they are presenting it as a new and exciting way to level up. Warhammer online allows you to level up by PvPing so I think it's just as much about making sure WAR has something WoW doesn't have.

I'm not very surprised they got rid of it. As it's been going on for so long they couldn't just have made new requirements for high level enchants as there are tons of 39s allready running around with mongoose, nethercleft++. Not to mention 19s with double crusader. Making entry level PvP available to anyone is a good thing imo.

[dgrampa]

It's confirmed. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

This does spell the end for the twinks, but they are presenting it as a new and exciting way to level up. Warhammer online allows you to level up by PvPing so I think it's just as much about making sure WAR has something WoW doesn't have.

I'm not very surprised they got rid of it. As it's been going on for so long they couldn't just have made new requirements for high level enchants as there are tons of 39s allready running around with mongoose, nethercleft++. Not to mention 19s with double crusader. Making entry level PvP available to anyone is a good thing imo.


Confirmed like this (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10697502130&pageNo=1&sid=1#7)?

[Mistro]

This does spell the end for the twinks, but they are presenting it as a new and exciting way to level up.

I wouldn't count them out just yet. Its not mentioned to be mandatory, so thats left open. Besides, now it will be even "worse". What 70 PvP lover wouldn't want to drop a nethercleft on pants they can use on an alt for manslaughter over 20-30 free levels? What about Heirloom items? I'm not rich by any means, but I'm a gatherer/crafter and keep all my alts enchanted with fresh gear for PvE, why wouldn't I for PvP?

Its not really an exciting change for me unless they add more level 10 and up PvP gear, make it fully viable to level in compared to PvE, and make everything cost less marks. That way super twinks have less advantages over the poor/new player and it provides a smooth bracket progression.

[Shellar]

They said that they are "considering" adding the option to gain experience in battlegrounds. Of course, they've also been "considering" adding player housing to the game since vanilla WoW's beta, and we all know how that turned out. :rolleyes:

Knowing Blizzard, they'll probably introduce it as non-mandatory thing. As a hypothetical example, you'd gain experience from BG kills if you have any PvP tabard equipped. If you have any other type of tabard on, you wouldn't get XPs.

[Mazhulsage]

Actually, it is confirmed that it will be in a patch in WotLK "Sometime in the future" it was even on this very sites front news. They said it would be based on your contribution to the battleground. If you do nothing, you gain very little to nothing, if you do most of the work, you gain a lot of experience, nothing compared to questing of course, but still a nice amount.

[odinsnephew]

Post 13 in this thread has a link. This is what the blue poster said,

Battlegrounds wins/losses and honorable kills will not award experience after the next patch, nor upon the release of Wrath of the Lich King. It could always happen somewhere down the road as we work to improve PvP progression, but there are no plans for changing this in the immediate future.

[dgrampa]

Actually, it is confirmed that it will be in a patch in WotLK "Sometime in the future" it was even on this very sites front news. They said it would be based on your contribution to the battleground. If you do nothing, you gain very little to nothing, if you do most of the work, you gain a lot of experience, nothing compared to questing of course, but still a nice amount.


You are missing one important detail, over and over. It will most likely be optional experience that you will only get if you accept and turn in a daily quest.

[Cerberus]

We'll just have to see I guess. It would make a lot more sense to me if they made everyone level up however. Catering to the 1% that are willing and can afford to spend hundreds, if not thousands, on making their alt competitive would be very unlike Blizzard.

[dgrampa]

We'll just have to see I guess. It would make a lot more sense to me if they made everyone level up however. Catering to the 1% that are willing and can afford to spend hundreds, if not thousands, on making their alt competitive would be very unlike Blizzard.

I am curious as to where you get your 1% statistic. How do you know it isn't more like 1% that are actually upset by twinking? I ask this because if you go to the official battlegroup forums, most of the threads are from twinks, about twinks. It may be that your 1% statistic is a result of your biased opinion, no?

See, I am biased in the opposite direction. It would make more sense to me if they made ALL xp gain optional, even from quests. Give everyone the option of turning off all xp gain once you reach the level you want. That way, twinks could not only compete in PvP, but also PvE content. 19 twinks clearing level 25 instances. Twinks able to get all the holiday quest rewards without fear of leveling out of their bracket. That sort of thing.

[Cerberus]

I pulled 1% out of a hat ofc. I do know however that out of the roughly 15000 characters (somewhere between 10 and 20k usually) on a server, a very small portion are active on forums. Even out of those people you won't see everyone having a twink or even being in favor of twinks. You will obviously find whoever is into twinks on the battleground forums.

You could say on the other hand that the people that have twinks are a very active part of the server population, but it would be very untypical of Blizzard to favor a small minority of the population at the expense of your average wowplayer. Twinks are in fact ruining lower level battlegrounds for everyone but twinks.

I don't think Blizzard intended 19s to be running around with enchants that are designed for people three times their level or the impact it would have, but simply caught it too late. They did make a move against it in TBC, but removing all the effort allready put in would cause a massive uproar among some of the most active players.

I don't have a twink (I could afford one easily if I wanted to), but what gets to me is that It's pointless to drop by any sub 60 BG on an alt unless I twink it. People that don't play wow all that much have no reason to go before they hit the upper brackets. You could say wow is all about gear even at 70, but you're at least competing on the same grounds.

[snowieken]

From a personal point of view, I hate twinks with a vengeance. But if this discussion turns into a to-twink-or-not-to-twink debate, I'm locking it. We have enough of those already.

[Mazhulsage]

It's not about that, it's about how many people ARE twinks. It's well known that they're not over 50%, and they're not even over 35%. Usually someone who twinks has multiple twinks, so you can't base it on amount of twinks total including multiples per account, you have to count from the fact of how many people PER account twink, which is probably less than 3/10 people who play.

[Cerberus]

I know, I just didn't have number of accounts per realm to work from. I agree that talking about how many people that twink instead of number of twinks is what's interesting.

3/10 is way too high however. It would mean that pretty much everyone or at least every other person at 70 that could afford it would have twinks. That's just not the case. I've meet hundreds of people that could have afforded it in my 4 years of WoW and only a handfull of those had it as a hobby.

[Shellar]

Consider this: on the majority of realms, there are more twinks than there are character who have killed a boss in Sunwell Plateau - and yet, Blizzard has no problems catering to the latter, even though they happen to be a minority.

[Cerberus]

Yes, but they're not raiding sunwell at the expense of other peoples enjoyment of PvE. It's not like people don't get to do 5-man instances because a small minority raids SWP. It would have been a valid point back when endgame raid gear made you unstoppable in BGs however.

If they let twinking be as it is I'm guessing it's more to avoid complaints from a very active part of the playerbase. It's probably the easiest way out if they don't want the BG boards turned upside down.

[Mistro]

I'd have to argue that a bit =p. I'm neither a PvPer or Raider, I'm a Crafter by trade. Most of my PvE enjoyment comes for gathering, crafting, and collecting things (such as mini-pets or rare spawn's items). Raiders often spoil this by being able to kill mobs faster, fly faster, being near invincible, and making more money. You could argue that by raiding/instancing I could solve that, but its the same reasoning that low level PvPers could go through the effort that twinks do to gear up. (Darn them for putting in the effort!)

WoW benefits those who spread their time across multiple areas, single minded players are left in the dust. That is why I slog through making a twink or raiding, if you want to get the most out of it, its necessary.

My server is RP PvE, but at least 1/3rd of my accquaintances have twinks, met at least 8 of them through regular guilds. I was kind of surprised myself. The server only has two twink guilds I know of, most of them must PuG. Perhaps some prime-time Census records would help.

[Mazhulsage]

Considering the fact that raiding was a part of the game thought up by the creators, and twinking isn't, it's an exploit. Just like they didn't put bots in the game, and since they didn't put it in the game it's an exploit for people to use it, but it's still usable.

Actually, even though there MIGHT be more twink chars TOTAL (that includes multiple per account) than there is people raiding Sunwell, that doesn't mean that Blizzard caters to end-game people. They just nerfed end-game a bit so more people could do it pre-Wrath. They're also making end-game accessable by nearly everyone come the expansion, so that even casual players have the small chance of seeing Arthas, whereas previously only the most extreme hardcore PvE'ers would see Sunwell, which has now been adjusted.

Flat out, twinking wasn't thought of by the developers as something that would happen, they knew people would gear up a bit while leveling and do BG's then continue leveling, they did expect people to enjoy the BG's at early levels, and expected people to play them, but not stay there forever.

Flat out, they're taking twinking out, it's been said already that EVENTUALLY in a patch in Wrath they'll add a minor amount of experience through contribution to the BG, look it up.

[Mistro]

Considering the fact that raiding was a part of the game thought up by the creators, and twinking isn't, it's an exploit. Just like they didn't put bots in the game, and since they didn't put it in the game it's an exploit for people to use it, but it's still usable.

Flat out, twinking wasn't thought of by the developers as something that would happen, they knew people would gear up a bit while leveling and do BG's then continue leveling, they did expect people to enjoy the BG's at early levels, and expected people to play them, but not stay there forever.

Flat out, they're taking twinking out, it's been said already that EVENTUALLY in a patch in Wrath they'll add a minor amount of experience through contribution to the BG, look it up.

You act like twinking is an outside force acting on the game. They are characters using gear that anyone can plainly get at those levels (probably not solo, but its available to them), if they didn't intend to do that, why set the level limit so low? Its not as though they're glitching into quests, duping, or hacking. If you mean exploit in the traditional sense of the word, yes, they're taking advantage of what is available to them.

I highly doubt they didn't think about twinking, its a natural part of nearly any game. Its the first thing I do on an RPG, when I reach the next shop I buy the best available equipment. Any game developer who doesn't assume that a player will take full advantage of what is available to them isn't very good, its a natural part of competition, which is mostly what games are about. If you mean twinks who purely BG/Arena with a character, thats possible, but also not likely.

You can't really account for everyone's personality and play style in such a customizable game. I mean, there are people out there who make RP or "Merchant" characters and play them soley that way, never leveling. There is more to WoW than leveling and raiding, its just what alot of people prefer to do with their time. I myself have 9 characters, all at lvl 20-35 or more with maxed out professions for their level, as well as nearly the best gear for their level with really good enchants. My driving force to level, is actually so that I can reach the next tier of crafting. I'm by no means rich, but I'm a crafter, and its my playstyle to twink my characters. Though, not necessarily BG with them, but if I so choose, does that make me some evil exploiter?

As I said before, even with exp, you can't kill or remove twinks or the min-max spirit. Twink BGers may not stay at that level anymore, but now you'll see more of them, and they will level through the brackets and regear. If you really want to stop people from having really good gear, then change when people can accept quests, what level items enchants can be put on, etc.

[dgrampa]

Cer and Maz, please do us all a favor and look up some other twink thread, where all the same inane arguments have been made and refuted a million times before, and post your anti-twink 'thoughts' there. In the mean time...



Flat out, they're taking twinking out, it's been said already that EVENTUALLY in a patch in Wrath they'll add a minor amount of experience through contribution to the BG, look it up.

provide a link or stop posting false rumors. You are misreading into a post because you do not understand it.

[Mazhulsage]

I told you to look it up, I didn't say "Here's the link."

It's already been posted on this site, and multiple other sites, if you're too lazy to look it up then you can essentially say you're as lazy as I am as I'm not going to provide a link not only because I'm not wasting my time on something that's easily accessible, but I'm also not dealing with you going "LULZ, SEE, U MISRED!" when I infact didn't.

[odinsnephew]

Fair enough angry boy. I'm sticking with what I know ;)

[Cerberus]

It was said at Blizzcon

...They also want players to be able to level up in battlegrounds through XP rewards in addition of honor. Daily quests will also be added.

Exactly what that entails is very uncertain and is what started this dicussion. It's obviuosly been picked up by a lot of other sites as well.

Saying that the anti-twink arguments are inane and refuted doesn't really help getting us any clearer on the matter however. Twinking is about obtaining enchants or items that character by no means would have been able to obtain at that level (short of playing the AH starting at copper bars and ending with thousands). You're either fine with it or against it. We're not talking about top notch blues and the best enchants that character can learn here.

What we're trying to figure out is if they are going to push 19s, 39s etc out of their brackets or if they'll leave it. The later additions to gear/enchants and Blizzzards policys on gameplay can give us some leads, but it's pretty hard to seperate from the general twink/anti-twink debate. The uproar it could cause might not even make it worth it for Blizzard.

[Kiwago]

no one has answered my question about what class/race it should be...

[Cerberus]

no one has answered my question about what class/race it should be...

I don't have much clue about race atm. They redid all the racials so I'd look into that before going for any old advice. I'd go for a class I enjoy the gameplay of at 19. Keep in mind that you'll have an easier time with some classes however. Keywords being what enchants are available and how classes scale with them. Rogues get DW early on and can get 2xcrusader for example, but that doesn't mean other classes won't work out.

[dgrampa]

It was said at Blizzcon

...
What we're trying to figure out is if they are going to push 19s, 39s etc out of their brackets or if they'll leave it. The later additions to gear/enchants and Blizzzards policys on gameplay can give us some leads, but it's pretty hard to seperate from the general twink/anti-twink debate. The uproar it could cause might not even make it worth it for Blizzard.

That is exactly what I am trying to explain to you and Maz. What you both seem to be missing is that they want to add a system for people to be able to level up their toons by doing PvP IF THEY WANT TO, not to force out twinks. Any system they add will be optional. I have already provided a link to a Blizzard post stating VERY CLEARLY that they will not be forcing xp in BGs now or in the xpac. But you two don't seem to want to believe it.

I told you to look it up, I didn't say "Here's the link."

It's already been posted on this site, and multiple other sites, if you're too lazy to look it up then you can essentially say you're as lazy as I am as I'm not going to provide a link not only because I'm not wasting my time on something that's easily accessible, but I'm also not dealing with you going "LULZ, SEE, U MISRED!" when I infact didn't.

It has NOT been posted on this site, and it has NOT been posted on any other reputable site because the link does not exist. That was the whole point I was trying to make for you. You are mistaking a comment about how they want to add an OPTIONAL system for people who want to level their characters through a PvP system, not to force twinks to level. So yes, SEE, U MISRED! infact even.

[Cerberus]

Oh really, come on. I googled and found the same story on pretty much every wow site and. Google "Tom Chilton and the future of PvP Blizzcon 2008". The first link I posted is also to a very well known WoW site known for being first out with the last news (as that's pretty much the only thing they do). Managed to dig it up even:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG6goij97Ow at 9 minutes and out.

CMs can be misinformed or not updated. Lead designers of the game won't be as they're the ones deciding. The fact that said blue post was posted 9 days before the PvP panel makes this a non-issue really.

I have no idea how/when/if they'll implement this ofc, but I haven't seen anything suggesting it will be optional and if they made it optional it would be a pretty unique mechanic.

[Mistro]

Twinking is about obtaining enchants or items that character by no means would have been able to obtain at that level



Everyone has the means though. You can be a self-made twink if you want. The only reasons people can't/don't twink are:

-They have no gathering professions or alternate characters of any level (mostly new players)
-They're clueless about how to get decent gear(mostly new players again)
-They have no idea how to use the AH (for making money or buying gear)
-They're anti-social (its pretty easy to make friends of any level, especially in a guild)
-They don't want to put in the effort/care (mostly old players)
-Perhaps their server is full of jerks, a dead economy, or the other faction is so overpowering they can't get anything done(unlikely, but possible)

Most of those problems can be solved by researching or by being friendly.

As to what was said at blizzcon, its on that video, the same words written around the net. "exp in addition to honor, and daily quests" How exactly you get the exp and honor was not mentioned, many speculate its through turning in marks, others think its through wins/loses or honor kills.

To return to the totally derailed topic:

Its a common question you pose, one that can only be answered by yourself and your play style. I personally like Hunters, Paladins, and Priests. I play in the 29 bracket though, Alliance side.

Horde Racials, PvP useful:

Blood Elves:
Arcane Torrent - instant - 2 min cooldown - (Hunters/Paladins/Mages/Priests/Warlocks only)
Silence all enemies within 8 yards for 2 sec and restores 5 + 1/Level% of your Mana.

Magic Resistance - passive
Reduces the chance you will be hit by spells by 2%.

Orcs:
Blood Fury - instant - 2 min cooldown (Death Knight/Warrior/Rogue/Hunter only)
Increases attack power by (Level*4)+2 per character level (322 at 80). Lasts 15 sec.

Blood Fury - instant - 2 min cooldown (Shaman only)
Increases melee attack power by (Level*4)+2 and your spell power by (Level*2)+3. Lasts 15 sec.

Blood Fury - instant - 2 min cooldown (Warlock only)
Increases your spell power by (Level*2)+3. Lasts 15 sec.

Hardiness - passive
Duration of Stun effects reduced by an additional 15%.

Command - passive
Damage dealt by Death Knight, Hunter and Warlock pets increased by 5%.

Axe Specialization - passive
Expertise with Axes and Two-Handed Axes increased by 5.

Tauren:
War Stomp - instant - 0.5 sec cast - 2 min cooldown
Stuns up to 5 enemies within 8 yds for 2 sec.

Endurance - passive
Base Health increased by 5%

Nature Resistance - passive
Reduces the chance you will be hit by Nature spells by 2%.

Trolls:
Berserking - instant - 3 min cooldown
Increases your attack speed by 10% to 30%. At full health the speed increase is 10% with a greater effect up to 30% if you are badly hurt when you activate Berserking. Lasts 10 sec.

Regeneration - passive
Health regeneration increased by 10%. 10% of total Health regeneration may continue during combat.

Beast Slaying - passive
Damage dealt versus Beasts increased by 5%.

Bow Specialization - passive
Your chance to critically hit with Bows is increased by 1%.

Da Voodoo Shuffle - passive
Reduces the duration of all movement impairing effects by 15%. Trolls be flippin' out mon!

Forsaken (undead):
Will of the Forsaken - instant - 2 min cooldown
Removes any Charm, Fear and Sleep effect.

Cannibalize - instant - 2 min cooldown
When activated, regenerates 7% of total health every 2 sec for 10 sec. Only works on Humanoid or Undead corpses within 5 yds. Any movement, action, or damage taken while Cannibalizing will cancel the effect.

Shadow Resistance - passive
Reduces the chance you will be hit by Shadow spells by 2%.

You may also want to pick up some gathering professions for their passive buffs, max skinning gives crit rating (spell and melee), max herbalism gives you a self-hot, and max mining gives a stamina buff.

[Cerberus]

It's not really resaonable to expect anyone to be able to build up several thousands of gold starting out with gathering professions capped at 75. Picking up the top notch blues from instances can't be done without a higher level helping you and the same goes for applying librams and netherclefts. Eveything is possible with enough money, but it's really pretty farfetched. You can do it as an experienced player starting out on a new realm, but it would probably be easier to just level to 70 and start another character.

The point I tried to make about game philosophy has to do with this. They want BGs to be enjoyable and meaningful to lower level characters (without requiring thorough knowledge of the game one can assume). They made this point at Blizzcon 07 and what Kalgan (Chilton) said this year really has a lot to do with the same. If they were to remove twinking from the game this is an easy way out. Simply making the requirements to enchants in line with things they have added later on would be a much less subtle way to do it. It would be too obvious and they know they wouldn' get away with stealthnerfing twinks. Packing it in something positive (he even managed to get an applause) makes things a lot easier from a business PoV.

I want to underline again that I don't know if or how they'll implement this.

[toothman]

In my time playing in the BGs, I see hunters dealing the most total damage, warriors and paladin being the hardest to take down, priests and healadons breaking battles with their heals and support spells, mages and warlocks being the most disruptive to your strategies, and druids being the most annoying flagrunners. Shamans I don't see much of, but then I've played mostly in 19s and a bit in 29s and 39s. It all depends on the role you enjoy serving the most. Determine that and you'll be satisfied with your final product, guaranteed.

I have a quick question for the more experienced here. I'm making a healadon twink now to complement my mage twink, and I've got the gear nearly all the way mapped out. His focus will be flagrunning and healing. I intend to invest first in stamina and damage mitigation, second in my healing proficiency, and virtually nothing in dps.

Right now the only 1H weapon I can find with the stat boosts I need is Night Watch Shortsword (http://thottbot.com/i935), but the friggin thing is a world drop. Any suggestions, cuz right now I'm about to settle with the best "of the eagle" green I can find.

Another is the second ring. First ring will obviously be Seal of Sylvanas, but what can I use to substitute for Advisor's Ring until I get the marks to buy it?

[Redhole]

Twinks eh? I have one, a 19 Blood Elf Hunter. Making her was a blast; leveling, gathering items, getting boosts, it was all cool. Then I took her into Battlegrounds, and it was also cool. Not a slaughterfest, as easily 50% of people in 10-19 are twinks, but great fun.

For a while. Then I got all the PVP items I wanted, and maxed out on WSG marks. It started to become dull, and then simply pointless. I now have a 1000g+ bank alt.

So by all means make a twink, enjoy it, but don't expect the thrill to last long.

[dgrampa]

In my time playing in the BGs, I see hunters dealing the most total damage, warriors and paladin being the hardest to take down, priests and healadons breaking battles with their heals and support spells, mages and warlocks being the most disruptive to your strategies, and druids being the most annoying flagrunners. Shamans I don't see much of, but then I've played mostly in 19s and a bit in 29s and 39s. It all depends on the role you enjoy serving the most. Determine that and you'll be satisfied with your final product, guaranteed.

I have a quick question for the more experienced here. I'm making a healadon twink now to complement my mage twink, and I've got the gear nearly all the way mapped out. His focus will be flagrunning and healing. I intend to invest first in stamina and damage mitigation, second in my healing proficiency, and virtually nothing in dps.

Right now the only 1H weapon I can find with the stat boosts I need is Night Watch Shortsword (http://thottbot.com/i935), but the friggin thing is a world drop. Any suggestions, cuz right now I'm about to settle with the best "of the eagle" green I can find.

Another is the second ring. First ring will obviously be Seal of Sylvanas, but what can I use to substitute for Advisor's Ring until I get the marks to buy it?

Blood Ring is usually pretty cheap on the AH.