A Lift - Into Space?!

[Maticus]

... Or an elevator as our friends on the other side of the pond call it.

Yes, there's more news of the giant cable that will allow us to simply trundle upwards into space at a comfortable pace much like a lift in a hotel, none of this blast-off nonsense which uses so much fuel and costs a fortune.

Obviously it's a long way off, but exciting stuff indeed. Take note of the name of the chap who's demonstrating how it works - Mr Riise *giggle*

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7792297.stm

[Twoflower]

interesting :)

i have been reading about this several times, from sci-fi books by Stanislav Lem to Terry Pratchet's "Science of the disc world".

There is another thing though... We need to solve our global problems before even thinking about space seriously. As it is at the moment, spacetravel is a waste of energy. Only if we have a worldwide community and a worldwide effort, we will have the resources to achieve something bigger than ourselfs. As it is now, Space travel is just for showing off. ( not literaly, but this is more or less a quote from Lem. He was refering to the efforts made during the cold war, but it still is true today IMO ).

[lordgeep]

interesting :)

i have been reading about this several times, from sci-fi books by Stanislav Lem to Terry Pratchet's "Science of the disc world".

There is another thing though... We need to solve our global problems before even thinking about space seriously. As it is at the moment, spacetravel is a waste of energy. Only if we have a worldwide community and a worldwide effort, we will have the resources to achieve something bigger than ourselfs. As it is now, Space travel is just for showing off. ( not literaly, but this is more or less a quote from Lem. He was refering to the efforts made during the cold war, but it still is true today IMO ).


Oh my. "Space travel is just for showing off." You could not misunderstand more. Nasa and "Space Travel" benefit you so seamlessly you don't even know it. Where does your nightly weather report come from? Outer Space. Where does information on climate change, resource utilization, tracking endangered species, etc come from? Earth Orbit.
The US Space Program has had literally thousands of spin-offs that were all placed into the public domain. These were technological and scientific advances that were researched to enable "Space Travel" but had many other applications of benefit to ordinary citizens. Where did teflon come from? Hell, man, the personal computer was a spin-off of electronics miniaturization research required for the Space Program!!!! Check out: http://www.look-to-the-skies.com/space_program_spinoffs.htm
As to the statement "We need to solve our global problems before even thinking about space seriously.", almost every conflict among nations can be traced to a lack of sufficient freely available resources. One of the goals bandied about for NASA is to find a way to mine NEOs (Near Earth Objects). NEOs are asteroids in orbits similar to Earth's, and thus easier to reach than most other solar destinations. There are trillions of tons of raw materials locked up in NEOs. Surely cheap resources for all is a desirable goal.
A Space Elevator would be just the ticket for helping to make the mining of NEOs economically feasible. Robert Heinlein once said something like: "Get to low-Earth orbit and you're halfway to anywhere in the solar system." (Can't remember the exact quote.)
BTW, Wikipedia has a fairly decent article on SPace Elevators at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator .

[Maticus]

the space elevator project is important because it enables a far more directly useful project - installation of large space solar power satellites around the Earth to provide continuous, cheap, CO2-neutral, environmentally friendly energy,

Another good reason for it ^ ^

[Twoflower]

Oh my. "Space travel is just for showing off." You could not misunderstand more. Nasa and "Space Travel" benefit you so seamlessly you don't even know it. Where does your nightly weather report come from? Outer Space. Where does information on climate change, resource utilization, tracking endangered species, etc come from? Earth Orbit.
The US Space Program has had literally thousands of spin-offs that were all placed into the public domain. These were technological and scientific advances that were researched to enable "Space Travel" but had many other applications of benefit to ordinary citizens. Where did teflon come from? Hell, man, the personal computer was a spin-off of electronics miniaturization research required for the Space Program!!!! Check out: http://www.look-to-the-skies.com/space_program_spinoffs.htm
As to the statement "We need to solve our global problems before even thinking about space seriously.", almost every conflict among nations can be traced to a lack of sufficient freely available resources. One of the goals bandied about for NASA is to find a way to mine NEOs (Near Earth Objects). NEOs are asteroids in orbits similar to Earth's, and thus easier to reach than most other solar destinations. There are trillions of tons of raw materials locked up in NEOs. Surely cheap resources for all is a desirable goal.
A Space Elevator would be just the ticket for helping to make the mining of NEOs economically feasible. Robert Heinlein once said something like: "Get to low-Earth orbit and you're halfway to anywhere in the solar system." (Can't remember the exact quote.)
BTW, Wikipedia has a fairly decent article on SPace Elevators at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator .

you misunderstand.

i ment space travel, not working near the earth. Like trying to show off by landing on the moon first or reaching mars. We didnt get much from landing on the moon once, did we ? We have not been on the moon ever since. That is for two generations now that we can just say that we put a flag up there, and that is the only benefit.

Satelites etc ar of course a different thing. But they are not realy space travel, they are just a little extension of our sphere of influence.

As for resources being the reason for the problems on our world, i have to disagree. The problems come from the economical and political systems and mostly from ignorance and greed. More resources wont change that.

[TPMdm]

you misunderstand.

i ment space travel, not working near the earth. Like trying to show off by landing on the moon first or reaching mars. We didnt get much from landing on the moon once, did we ? We have not been on the moon ever since. That is for two generations now that we can just say that we put a flag up there, and that is the only benefit.

You forgot golf and off-roading! The lunar landing brought the red-neck and the Country Clubber together! :)

Satelites etc ar of course a different thing. But they are not realy space travel, they are just a little extension of our sphere of influence.

As for resources being the reason for the problems on our world, i have to disagree. The problems come from the economical and political systems and mostly from ignorance and greed. More resources wont change that.

More resources won't change greed? I agree fundamentally, I guess, but practically if everybody is "rich" most people won't care who is "richest" except for those striving to be "richest" and those people are just sad. IMO a certain small percentage of the super wealthy actually care about getting more money and being on top. For the others money is more like a benchmark a way to gauge personal performance..... "How well did I do this year? My company made 50 billion more than last year! Yeah me!"

I loves me some Tang (yeah NASA).

[jschild]

Ask any firefighter if NASA is worth it. They will tell you yes.

Couple that with its small budget (not even 1/2 of 1% if I remember correctly).

[clevins]

Yes. Let's create utopia here before we explore. Oh, hold it...we'll NEVER solve all of our problems here. That attitude would have had our distant ancestors never leave their origins in Africa. The US wouldn't exist. Europe wouldn't. Most of the modern world is the result of exploration, some of it for glory, some for economic gain, some for intellectual interest. The "we need to solve our issues here first" crowd is just putting out a red herring saying "never do anything" since we'll NEVER solve all of our issues on Earth. A healthy society can do multiple things - address poverty adn racism and immigration and environmental issues AND explore. By that logic we should kill all basic science, people shouldn't play games or go out to dinner and we should all work and donate the money we don't need to live to help causes that solve problems. Yet mostly we do both... we support those causes and we spend money on frivolous stuff like WoW or dinner out.

The problem isn't that we went to the moon but haven't been back. The problem is that we've NOT gone back. You say you're fine with al of the earth orbit stuff, but find 'space travel' wasteful... But we'd not have the benefits you acknowledge without the Apollo and earlier missions that developed technology. You're simply saying "Oh yes, I'd like the benefits of space, but not the cost."

On topic, the space elevator is actually an old idea... Arthur C Clarke originated it (along with the idea of satellites) in the 40s. The primary issues are actually materials engineering and we're getting to the point in that science that would allow us to build this.

[Kalos]

I agree, we must try to make what bounds and improvements in technological development and utilisation that we can; it has led us where we are today after all. Politics, nationalism, and individualism have always been with us, suppressing everyone into one identity will only furthern the goals of some while overlooking the needs of others. That isn't to say that any form of cooperation within a community, a city, a county, or a planet is impossible; but some things are best left to a small scale; such is how government structures have always worked within a nation, federalism is the prime example of a modern and clear cut system with many levels of individuality and cooperation working to provide a livable state for people to live in. Isolating power and identity to one grand throne room is the style of Gengis Khan, and we can all see how long that system of government lasted and what we remember it for. The current system may be as good as it gets in terms of cooperation without being too suppressive, but that judgement is not mine to make, it belongs to the future.

[clevins]

Hmm... I was wrong. It's older than Clarke actually. dates back to 1895. Here's a good overview on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

[WatcherZero]

Space elevators offer the cheapest possible access to space but also the most impractical engineering and safety challenges. Think about it, you have a building 20,000 km tall and hundred of meters wide, now imagine it toppling, it will cause massive destruction all the way round the earth.

[clevins]

well, yes. But given the strength of the materials needed in the first place it's unlikely to topple. And given the location issues (they can't be built just anywhere) most would not be built anywhere near land. But yeah, if it fell over... it would wrap most of the way around earth.

[ptarn]

Why would an ideal space elevator be hundreds of meters wide? When you take the strongest and lightest materials possible, you can create an elevator using the gravitational force of the Earth itself to hold it upright and only make it about ten metres wide. Furthermore, in such a 'small' elevator, you could create fail-safes in the way of parts detaching from each other when it would 'fall' and even some of them self-destructing.

No, I don't think the falling/toppling over of such a contraption would be the biggest issue. The biggest issue would be to create something, a thick wire of some sort, that would be able to form a straight line up, or to create something that could withstand swaying motions, which is something they are already working with in Japan on certain new skyscrapers.

[TPMdm]

The little kid in me would want to attach some rockets to the bottom of the space elevator and turn it into a Giant Bottle Rocket. The adult in me wonders how much something like that would cost. The science fiction fan in me tries to imagine taking a slowish ride up an "ordinary elevator" and staring out into space once the little bell dings at the top.

[wyren]

Basic science research and exploration has always paid off. It has created a system in the United States where the primary cause of death among the poor is obesity caused heart attacks/abundance. Every advance cause new challengesand displaces people. Ask the buggy whip makers how they felt about cars. The new space program is much more incremental here to stay attitude. Watch how the battle for the north pole is settled out. It is the forerunner of the battle for the moon.

[TPMdm]

This reminds me: Anybody following this thread ever see the TV program "Extreme Engineering"?

[Caderbery]

This reminds me: Anybody following this thread ever see the TV program "Extreme Engineering"?

Ive seen a few shows, but i normally miss it.

[Amra]

Obviously it's a long way off, but exciting stuff indeed.
Long, long way off. If ever. I'm not sold on it at all. Even if, it's use would be very limited. And what about access to orbits with a higher inclination?

There is another thing though... We need to solve our global problems before even thinking about space seriously.
I strongly disagree. We already use space to help address issues on the ground.