Archavon Loot - Can I roll?

[DrOsmius]

Here is an "issue" I'm curious about how others feel.

25man Vault PUG: Valorous Raiments of Faith drop, the dps chest for priests. I am holy and already have the valorous robes (healing chest for priests).

Am I wrong for rolling on the dps chest?
Am I wrong for rolling if the other priest is shadow and I'm holy?

This "issue" would apply to the other classes that have multiple viable specs (warrior, DK, pally, druid, shaman).

For the record, I did roll (planning ahead to dual spec, and useful for questing) and I did win and the shadowpriest was clear about his opinion that I was wrong.

[semiiramiis]

Here is an "issue" I'm curious about how others feel.

25man Vault PUG: Valorous Raiments of Faith drop, the dps chest for priests. I am holy and already have the valorous robes (healing chest for priests).

Am I wrong for rolling on the dps chest?
Am I wrong for rolling if the other priest is shadow and I'm holy?

This "issue" would apply to the other classes that have multiple viable specs (warrior, DK, pally, druid, shaman).

For the record, I did roll (planning ahead to dual spec, and useful for questing) and I did win and the shadowpriest was clear about his opinion that I was wrong.


It is wrong to roll over another toon's main spec for your offspec, yes. It's that simple.

[Twoflower]

It is a PuG, you can roll on anything you need. If people care about speccs, they can run the instances with their guild. I wouldnt even start to argue.

[semiiramiis]

It is a PuG, you can roll on anything you need. If people care about speccs, they can run the instances with their guild. I wouldnt even start to argue.

This is part of the mentality that makes PuGs suck. "I don't really need it, I already have my mainspec version of this item, the shadow priest does need it, but I WANT it so I'm going to roll." No. Sorry. Still wrong.

[surodat]

You're rolling for something that can help you much later down the line and that does not help you fulfill your role in raids.

He's rolling for something he'd use now and that helps him in his main function in raids.

I believe you should have passed.

[Marlous]

The thing is, that your principles often don't match those of the other puggers. I personally believe that if someone needs an item more than I do, then I'm more than happy to let them have it. HOWEVER. If there's an item that -I- really need, there's never someone else who says, sure you can have it, I'll pass. I once even missed out on the friggin' Heavy Frostweave book, because the idiot who was lott master decided to keep the book to vendor it or something - even though I was the only one who didn't have it yet.

Basically, imho it's a "reap what you sow" kind of thing. In a pug you see people behave on their worst, well then I'm not going to let people walk all over me - then I'll also be a bit more selfish when it comes to loot. I really agree with Twoflower on this; do such runs with your guild, where there's decent people who won't screw you over. If you pug, then it's mostly every man to himself - although I have to admit that there's always situations where you actually do encounter decent people who I do like to see get their loot.

[DrOsmius]

It is wrong to roll over another toon's main spec for your offspec, yes. It's that simple.

I will clarify that this is exactly how I feel about every other dungeon and raid, pug or not; and I've never rolled against dps in those either.

But for some reason my gut feel -- in the 10seconds I had to decide -- was that Archavon with his ginormous loot table, was different. The odds of even seeing that item drop again in the next 10 weeks seemed pretty small, so I sort of thought of it as my one shot. And after all, I did as much to drop Archie as the other priest, why not have equal chance of reward?


But...I looked at the math. With four random drops from a 105-item table, there is about a 14% chance of seeing any given item on a kill. This results in a 50/50 chance of having it drop over the course of 4 kills...and when you factor in rolling, about a 20% net chance of getting it in the next month.

:ponder:

So overall, had I a chance to do it over again, I think I'd pass, even to a stranger I'd never see again.

But I'm still curious what others think.

[clevins]

1) Semi is right, 2F is wrong.
2) Marlous brings up a good point, but I live according to what I feel is right and I think most people do. I'd LIKE others to do that, but their lack of principle won't lead me to compromise mine. If you're letting the chance of getting some pixels attached to your account in a game undermine how you treat real people you're pathetic.

You were wrong to roll. Period. Why do you care about Arch's loot table - it's a dps chest and you're holy. If it NEVER drops for you it won't matter. You didn't need it, you were a dick, you're trying to justify something that wasn't cool to do. On the other hand, it's over and unless you're going to open a GM ticket and transfer the item, move on.

[Kodonn]

But for some reason my gut feel -- in the 10seconds I had to decide -- was that Archavon with his ginormous loot table, was different. The odds of even seeing that item drop again in the next 10 weeks seemed pretty small, so I sort of thought of it as my one shot. And after all, I did as much to drop Archie as the other priest, why not have equal chance of reward?

Take THAT feeling and those odds....and now put yourself in the place of the other priest who was actually spec'ed to USE that item. Or better yet...what if someone had rolled against you for the healing robes for their of-spec...and won it?

Unless you respec'd from shadow to holy at the beginning of the raid because they asked you to (in order to fill the needed slot) then you should have passed.

Northrend is still new enough that many guilds are still trying to get enough members caught up in order to do guild only raids. Not sure of your situation, but I see that as one reason why there are a lot of not-so-random pugs going on. Next time that shadow priest is in a partially filled pug and they ask if anyone knows any good holy priests...I bet he/she forgets to mention your name. :sad:

[elsegundo]

if you want the dps chest, run as dps. i would be omgwtfbbqpissedtheefffout if you rolled against me for your "offspec". good luck with pugs in the future. i think you might be blacklisted by a few people by now.

[DrOsmius]

1) Semi is right, 2F is wrong.
2) Marlous brings up a good point, but I live according to what I feel is right and I think most people do. I'd LIKE others to do that, but their lack of principle won't lead me to compromise mine. If you're letting the chance of getting some pixels attached to your account in a game undermine how you treat real people you're pathetic.

You were wrong to roll. Period. Why do you care about Arch's loot table - it's a dps chest and you're holy. If it NEVER drops for you it won't matter. You didn't need it, you were a dick, you're trying to justify something that wasn't cool to do. On the other hand, it's over and unless you're going to open a GM ticket and transfer the item, move on.

Wow...harsh. You've always struck me as a bit less hostile than that.

So, yes, I do agree in principle -- I violated my own always-followed-before rule to not roll against dps -- but it *is* still something I would/will use. It does and will matter. I do run as dps from time to time; I do need hit rating as I am the goto-priest for Razuvious. It will help me get thru my quests, e.g. the elite ones that dps can easily solo and healers cannot. When dual-spec comes along, there will no longer be those awkward moments in guild runs where there are two healers that want to go. And, while my dps was low (~800), I did indeed cast more damage spells than heal spells on that particular run, as we had about 2 more healers than needed. It is less of a "need" for me, but not a "don't need at all" at all.

Yes, that sounds like I am justifying it. I am not. I said I agreed I was wrong and the [intended] tone of the OP was to meant to suggest that I was pretty sure I was. But to be that harsh over a 10sec decision -- the first time I ever outrolled a dps remember -- and suggest I am a pathetic dick of low moral standing?

I think that falls into an overly harsh response, and in itself is an example of the general hostility too-often encountered in the game (the reason I don't let my son ask for help in general chat). Yep, my mistake will itself add to that, as the other person will feel "jerked over" by me. But so does being so unforgiving of others' mistakes.


Anyhow, I am sure this will be misinterpreted as trying to justify my error, and expect a series of flames; I can't expect you to trust me that I really do think it was a poor decision that I regret, that I am not here seeking someone to say it was ok, that I really have never done it before. I expected a general "yep, you goofed" and "no, you shoulda passed", but I am always surprised at how quickly things in forums become so hostile and negative (or maybe in this case, just seem to since I'm the target).

So...with that, I'll stop posting in this thread and take whatever lumps come my way. :lipsrsealed:

PS. Does anyone think a GM would really allow a transfer to the other person? I'll find out tonite I guess....

[elsegundo]

i've heard of it happening, but have never experienced it before. do open a ticket and see where it leads you. again, i'd be totally pissed at you if you did that to me. but i'd be overjoyed if you did try to rectify your mistake.

[clevins]

I was harsh... because I'm not in the mood to be tolerant right now. I could have sugar coated it, but what's the point in putting flowery language around a blunt point? After 80 levels you know what's right and in this you were wrong and you know it. If stating that bluntly upsets you it just reinforces that point. I'm usually nicer about this kind of thing but there's something about people STILL having to figure out basic etiquette that just rubs me the wrong way.

Your attempts at self-justification about why you can use hit don't help. There are hit foods (20 and 40) out there and you don't need a frigging T7.5 chest to get hit. There's plenty of good blue hit gear out there that you can use for Raz and for farming if you occasionally go shadow. I know, I used it leveling. Get the Argent Skullcap and the Darkspear Footpads, enchant the former with the shatar head enchant and you;ll have 75 hit which is fine for Raz. Hell, get the Rune of Infinite Power as a quest reward and you'll be well over 100. Enchant the boots with Icewalker. Done. See? No T7.5 needed.

And yes, GMs will allow transfers in case of a mislooting.

[semiiramiis]

It will help me get thru my quests, e.g. the elite ones that dps can easily solo and healers cannot. When dual-spec comes along, there will no longer be those awkward moments in guild runs where there are two healers that want to go. And, while my dps was low (~800), I did indeed cast more damage spells than heal spells on that particular run, as we had about 2 more healers than needed. It is less of a "need" for me, but not a "don't need at all" at all.



I play the vast majority of those classes you mentioned in the beginning of this thread. My "main" is a resto tauren shaman. I have a lvl 68 priest, and an 80 dk. Since you're in Naxx, you're level 80 now. Quite bluntly, completing these quests mentioned are a luxury, as is off spec gear. What are you getting from them? Gold. Check. Rep? Check. You get those from dailies, which I know a holy priest can complete. And, if you need the quest that badly, hey...you have a guild for a reason. A friends list.

You didn't need the item in question. You wanted it. But need, no. ("Less of a need" is generally termed a greed roll in this game) You had one very unhappy shadow priest calling you a ninja, and yeah...I'll give him that. He honestly needed it. You just really, really wanted it.

[det]

Tanked Heroic AN today with a pugged DK (rest was guild) that DK rolled (and won) the tanking belt from last boss (He was respeccing tank). Sucked, but we could have made ML or something and didn't. Live and learn. Felt wrong but I am not gonna freak out over pixels.

In a Naxx 10 guildrun, Robes of Blaumeux and T7 token for lock / pally chest dropped. IMHO the lock should have gotten the robes and me the T7 token. But he rolled 100 and we didn't fuss about it. But that incident stung more than the heroic guy.

So I am kinda "meh" about it. Myself, in the case of the OP wouldn't roll on an offspecc if somebody is mainspecc even in a PuG

[Mazhulsage]

I personally don't think even at level 20 when loot doesn't matter that "offspec" stuff should be rolled on... If no one else can use it, sure, all yours buddy... If not? Fair's fair, the main speccer gets it.

No way would I allow anyone in my guild(s) to do that in the same group as me... I'd understand if the person was like "Please? I'll pay you 100g for it." or whatever, but that's about it =P. Even then, they have the choice of taking the 100g or the piece.

[ahhdamm]

1) Semi is right, 2F is wrong.
2) Marlous brings up a good point, but I live according to what I feel is right and I think most people do. I'd LIKE others to do that, but their lack of principle won't lead me to compromise mine. If you're letting the chance of getting some pixels attached to your account in a game undermine how you treat real people you're pathetic.

You were wrong to roll. Period. Why do you care about Arch's loot table - it's a dps chest and you're holy. If it NEVER drops for you it won't matter. You didn't need it, you were a dick, you're trying to justify something that wasn't cool to do. On the other hand, it's over and unless you're going to open a GM ticket and transfer the item, move on.

i agree with this post. i've had it happen to me and i was ( place bad word here ).

[ptarn]

I'm a balance druid, so the only other peeps that roll on the same items as me are resto druids when it's leather or warlocks, mages and priest if it's cloth (and an improvement on my current gear). Mostly when cloth drops, I don't even try and roll for it, the same with obvious resto-gear. When no one wants/needs the items in question, I'll always ask if it's ok if I take it then or we diss it. And whenever feral/rogue gear drops and no one wants/needs it, I'll ask if I can have it for my future off-spec.
I do the same, regardless of whether I'm in a guild group or a pug. And if someone is a complete and utter ***hole and takes something that I really could have used, either for my main or my off-spec, and the person in question doesn't need it or can't even use it, then I'd be pissed off about it and never group with that person again. I even left a group because of this once and because the group leader didn't want to kick the other guy who ninja'ed a few times already. But that doesn't mean I'd compromise my own principles, I'd still only need if I really needed it and otherwise would either greed or ask if I could have it.

And when I log off, I don't even worry about stuff like this anymore, since it's a game I play to relax, hehe.

[Shellar]

Both options (roll on anything you can theoretically use vs. roll exclusively on items that will benefit your current spec) have their merits and flaws.

The correct choice is to spend 2 minutes before the run to reach an agreement as to which option everyone will use.

[MonkeyDust]

One of th reasosns why I tend to solo more than do instances. I remember way back in the early levels actually getting an item I needed (Shaman) and the Warrior then started spamming how it was unfair blah blah and he could have sold it etc as he needs the money.

Inspite of others trying to calm him down and explain he wouldn't stop. So then I was kicked out of the group! I whispered the group leader and he said that they were part of the same guild and they didn't have many tanks so he had to keep him sweet. Sheesh - I just thought forget it not worth the bother.

To the OP - yes you were wrong (I think a lot of people have parted that message). Always put yourself in the other persons shoes - then you will realise how *beep* you would be. Yes you can use it down the line after a respec etc. but the other person NEEDED it now. Hence your situation was GREED his was NEED. No brainer after that.

However you appear to have a conscience (otherwise you would never have raised the question) - I would open a ticket and see if you could give him the item and just put this down to ten seconds of madness on your part :)

[PlayThemAll]

1) ... you were a dick, ....

Comments like this is why I rarely visit or post here any more.

[Twoflower]

Funny how you all seem to know what items i need and what not. I suggest a little exeriment : organise a 25 people raid, make master looter, and just distribue the items as you see fit. Let's see how many complains you get. I think the results of this experiment will show you that not everyone seems to agree with your choices.

Funny how we are not even sure what need means. Different people seem to have different opinions about where the border line is between needing something and realy wanting something.

Shellar put it best ( as usual ) when he said :

Both options (roll on anything you can theoretically use vs. roll exclusively on items that will benefit your current spec) have their merits and flaws.

The correct choice is to spend 2 minutes before the run to reach an agreement as to which option everyone will use.

So either you do that, or you run with your guild which will hopefully have some clear rules about loot.

But just standing in the raid and assuming that everyone there will have the exactly same ideas about loot distribution like you, and crying when someone else does in fact not share your ideas is just a sign of how little thought you put into that raid in the first place. It is easy to blame "the ninja" after you didnt get your pink pixels.

I still say roll on anything you need if there have been no other systems discussed before the raid.

[Shellar]

And if you still don't see advantages of pre-raid discussion, remember that the whole "need vs. greed" issue will get even more muddled once the dual spec feature goes live.

[Twoflower]

And if you still don't see advantages of pre-raid discussion, remember that the whole "need vs. greed" issue will get even more muddled once the dual spec feature goes live.

actualy, i hope this feature will clear up things.

I am a fury warrior and a prot warrior. I change specs ALOT while leveling, and i assume i will still change often after i hit 80. I may tank the instance i am in rght now, but chances are 50-50 that i will play fury in the next one. You may not see it, you may not be in that next group, but that does not change the facts. Yes, i am a hybrid. Yes, i want gear for both specs.

After dual specs go live, people will hopefully have a less hard time understanding that...

[Dhoum]

It's basic etiquette. If you're rolling for your primary spec (the one that you're using in the instance) then it's Need. If, on the other hand, you're rolling for a secondary spec then it's "Greed". This is stuff you should have worked out in Wailing Caverns for goodness' sake. I don't need 2 seconds to arrive at the conclusion, let alone ten.

Dual-specs are unlikely to change anything fundamentally, since the conventional wisdom is that one rolls for the role one is playing at the time of rolling. Exceptions to this are easy to agree on either at the time or in those valuable two minutes before the instance.

[Cattleya]

Honestly, it depends on the rules set up by the pug at the start. The leader should specify if it's main spec before off spec or free for all if you can wear it. If they don't, you can ask before you start. That solves the problem right there. If they want it free for all, and that offends your ethical sensitivities, you can find a pug with rules you like better.

[zerlikjr]

Also if you are rolling on loot, one would hope the battle is over. In the case of vault the instance is cleared so if there is any questions, talk to over before hitting the button.

Full Guild or Guild/PuG, our guild leader always does the master looter thing. He has a loot add-on of sorts so he can see all the rolls <and only the first one from each person>. He does not favor a Guild member over a Pugger. Having the leader have the final say in things solves problems when people accidentally hit need when they meant to just pass.

Naxx-10 I ended up with the t7 chest <which by itself is not much better then the ebomweave robe you give up a bunch of hit for some crit>. There was another mage so it really was down to the 2 of us. The leader verified that we had not already bought the item with emblems then we rolled.

Z.

[coani]

Could be worse... there's a player in my guild who forms VoA10/25 pugs all the time, and flat out refuses to invite people of same class as himself so he can hoard all the drops... to the point of refusing to invite my bear druid because he was on his druid.

(The irony? Some people in my guild are mumbling that I need to gear up to tank Sart+3 because I already have the highest health pool of the tankable people in the guild. And he's preventing me from doing just that by refusing to invite me).

[Twoflower]

Could be worse... there's a player in my guild who forms VoA10/25 pugs all the time, and flat out refuses to invite people of same class as himself so he can hoard all the drops... to the point of refusing to invite my bear druid because he was on his druid.

(The irony? Some people in my guild are mumbling that I need to gear up to tank Sart+3 because I already have the highest health pool of the tankable people in the guild. And he's preventing me from doing just that by refusing to invite me).

if he wants to be selfish, let him form his PuG's while you do guild runs...

[semiiramiis]

This thread saddens me on so many levels, and could be used as a how to guide for a question I get asked often.

My main is a highly desired grouping class, shaman with her normal mode being a highly desired grouping spec (Full resto), with a great deal of experience doing it. I love to heal, I love to group, and I feel at my absolute best when I'm button mashing like mad to keep people alive. That having been said, I do NOT pug. If you are not a guildie, nor on my friends list, I will NOT heal for you. You're completely out of luck, don't even ask.

And thoughts like this are why. Back when I did Pug, I behaved myself much, much better when it came to looting than I would ever consider behaving with my own guild. Why? Simple, I owe them, they owe me, and it'll all come out in the wash. So I'm a tad bit greedy today, I'll make sure you get yours later. Strangers are another thing altogether, and I've always treated my pug runs better than my guildies. In other words, I WAS the sort of healer everyone wanted, and now I have a divatude.

People ask why it's so hard to find healers and tanks for pugs. This is part of the reason. And with thoughts like some of these, it's a self perpetuating chain. "It's a pug. I'll use it, give it no common decency, it doesn't matter because I'll never see these people again." Your young healer, just getting her hooves underneath her, is taught... "Man, pugs suck. Why am I doing this? I have a guild. I have friends. Enough is enough." And you're left wailing in /2 that you can't find a healer.

[ptarn]

Semii, I agree with you completely. Well said!

[raymore]

I think the OP knows she made a mistake. We have all made mistakes. What I don't understand is how people can click need on an offspec even if they plan on respeccing after the instance. If the group did not ask you to respec, your primary roll is the one you are playing during the instance. It doesn't matter what you are going to do after or what you were before. If your current role does not need it, then it is greed.

I'm a hybrid class that is constantly respeccing. I have seen many things drop that I could use, but I went into the instance as a different role so it is no longer a need. That was my choice to play that role. Now if no one needs it for their current spec, then I will roll on it before it goes to de.

[mesonm]

Comments like this is why I rarely visit or post here any more.

Out of 20 comments, you are upset with ONE, and that is why you don't want to come here anymore....?

Sounds nuts to me...

1/20 ratio is GREAT for the internet....Just let it pass by, and keep coming and posting, IMO.

[surodat]

Originally Posted by PlayThemAll
Comments like this is why I rarely visit or post [on the internet] any more.

I fixed it!

[zerlikjr]

Surodat, I agree that name calling and such has no value. For the most part I consider the source and move on.

As far as your statement about rarely visit or post is not really true. I have seen several post from you on several threads, most of which are informative. The information under your name indicates you joined in Feb 08 and have made 746 post. I would consider those stats a regular contributor vs. a rarely post one.

Z.

[clevins]

Comments like this is why I rarely visit or post here any more.

And useless, off-topic posts aren't missed. Give me a break... it was a dick move to need on one of the best chests for a shadow priest when you're wearing the healing version for an offspec. If you're offended by the word dick, you must spend a lot of your time outraged.

Twoflower - you're still wrong. This wasn't some random decent blue from a 5 man it's one of the best dps chests in the game for shadow priests. And the OP wants it do QUEST with? The OP doesn't need the hit on the DPS chest to quest with... so let's admit this was just a bad move by someone who went "ohh, shiny... want". Sure you might respec back and forth, even after hitting 80... but if you're raiding you DO have a primary, main spec. Very, very few people have one toon with two equally valued raid roles. Sure, people might swap for a night if some folks are short... but it's pretty rare for a healer or a tank to swap back and forth to DPS on anything like a regular basis.

Let's remember a couple of things - the OP is raiding heroic Naxx. There are plenty of chests there (including this one, off Four Horsemen) that are great for that. Also, there's no confusion between need and really want - NEED means "is an upgrade for me right now" not "might be an upgrade if I ever respec." The only people who confuse the concepts are people are loot whores and want anything remotely usable.

If you're one spec in a run and want to grab offspec stuff you can tell people that upfront or take what the mainspecs don't want. Or you can run with friends or guildies who know you're gearing up for another role. But what you don't get to do (and plead need) is take a top piece on the off chance it might help with questing. Give me a break people, this happens, but it was and is a rude move.

PS: There's some comment above about pre-raid discussion which is, of course, a good idea. But 1) we don't know whether not there was discussion in this raid and 2)the lack of it does not remove peoples' responsibility do follow a basic rule of etiquette: Don't Be A Dick.

[PlayThemAll]

Out of 20 comments, you are upset with ONE, and that is why you don't want to come here anymore....?

Sounds nuts to me...

1/20 ratio is GREAT for the internet....Just let it pass by, and keep coming and posting, IMO.

I said comments LIKE this one. Many comments made on these forums have annoyed me me lately, most of which I just shrug off, but that one really irked me so I used it as my example. There are many ways to make a point w/o calling someone a "dick" IMHO that was a personal attack and uncalled for.

[clevins]

I said comments LIKE this one. Many comments made on these forums have annoyed me me lately, most of which I just shrug off, but that one really irked me so I used it as my example. There are many ways to make a point w/o calling someone a "dick" IMHO that was a personal attack and uncalled for.

So you post twice about how you don't post anymore and neither post comments on the actual topic? Are you teaching a class in irony?

yes, I could have been nicer - but I didn't feel like it. The OP knew they were wrong and while I could have spent paragraphs coddling them, I wasn't in the mood. I'm still not. Sometimes it's just better to be blunt than to dance around the point.

[elsegundo]

I said comments LIKE this one. Many comments made on these forums have annoyed me me lately, most of which I just shrug off, but that one really irked me so I used it as my example. There are many ways to make a point w/o calling someone a "dick" IMHO that was a personal attack and uncalled for.

Osmius asked our opinion.
Clevins answered with, you're a dick.
Osmius concurs with most replies.
Why does this bother you so much? clevs called it what it is, and in this case, its a dick. if it walks like a dick, if the shoe fits, etc.


Of course, you can call clevins a dick for replying the way he did. but well, the point is he answered the OP's question, which was the point of the thread to begin with.

[PlayThemAll]

/fixed

It's a PUG, unless guidelines for rolls were laid out in advance, he can roll on whatever he wants. Personally, I wouldn't have done it or I would have asked before rolling if I knew someone else needed it for their main spec.

If it's an immediate upgrade to a players main spec they should get to roll on the item. If it's not an immediate upgrade then let people roll for off spec, DE etc., etc.

Unfortunately shiny items tend to invoke the inner ninja in a lot of players.

[surodat]

@zerlikjr

:D I didn't post that originally, as you can see, Playthemall did. Thanks for the compliment though.

[Mazhulsage]

Oh, how I loathe the days of idiotic noob BE Paladins running everywhere... I was on my 37 (Correct level for the item) Warrior doing Armory, a Paladin who I was helping run the instance (He was level 32 or so, he wasn't doing anything.) came and tagged along with my guild, as I wanted Ravager (The level 37 2H Axe)... Of course, he won the need roll, and I immediately yelled at the screen, told him he was an idiot for wasting my time, and being useless in the group, and just logged out... 5 minutes later, didn't even think about it, lol.

[Shellar]

PS. Does anyone think a GM would really allow a transfer to the other person? I'll find out tonite I guess....
Yes, as long as you do it quickly enough (within the limits of one raid reset period).

That said, I think that you should keep. If a person can't be bothered to spend a minute discussing loot terms before the beginning of the PUG run, then he or she willingly forfeits any special rights or priorities that he or she would otherwise have.

[DrOsmius]

I think the OP knows she made a mistake. We have all made mistakes.

Well, the GM Ticket was escalated and is thus pending...I was told it could be days before the GM+ gets to me.

Anyhow, I did want to start a discussion, and figured the details weren't really relevant. Figured I'd just lay out the basics and see what the consensus was. I did do a bit of clarification, not meant so much as justification as it was to be meant as some extra info.

And then said I'll take my lumps.

First, to be blunt. Yes I do agree with the consensus it was a lapse in judgement on my behalf, and the net effect was a dickish move. If I woulda passed to friend/guildmate, then I shoulda passed to a pugmate just as well. If the GM+ won't transfer it, I'll buy the dude some Ebonweave Robes and apologize profusely.

-------------------------------------
What follows is, again, NOT justification. What it is, is an explanation of the basis of my thoughts at the time, and why I chose poorly.

Why do this? Because I care about the community I live and thrive in, whether IRL, in-game or in-forum. It is important to me to act in ways that improve things around me, or at the very least, don't make them worse. Pessimism and cynicism are my enemies, and I'm raising my kids to have those as their goals, and when they fail, to take responsibility and be accountable. I am hoping that this more detailed explanation helps that, helps people who were thinking "yep, one more example of how WoW is full of selfish dicks" to maybe instead see that it wasn't really that way, and might therefore have a less pessimistic/cynical view.

I play a healer most of the time. No, I'm not Ghandi, but I really thrive on it being the support class, the engine that allows everyone else to do their thing. I like being able to help out. I drive-by buff whenever. I never quit an instance just because it isn't working out. I give out stuff all the time (I love giving true newbies their first mount). I sign charter after charter (free of course) on my AH mule. I never node steal, even from opposing faction. I never /spit. Too often (sleep deprivation sucks) I'll join a pug that has been asking for a healer for the last 30min, because I know what it is like to be frustrated at not getting a needed role. I've taken to avoiding Zul'Drak since I'm tired of killing Malas the Corruptor over and over.

In short, I really try to treat every toon I see as a person, who could just as well be my son (who plays) or an IRL friend...if there is to be any interaction, let it be positive.

And for all these reasons, I have never clicked the need button for offspec gear over a mainspec.

Okay...so to the Vault.

It was my sixth Vault pug, and like every one before, there was no discussion of main over offspec rules; it was always /roll if you're a [insert class]. I had indeed lost out on the healing chest to a shadowpriest on my first run; I was not angry about it, I just figured that was how Archavon was treated. I was under the impression -- though an unexamined one -- that Vault was generally treated different from raids and instances. Archie is a loot pinata, everyone gets equal chance at the falling candy no matter what you did in there.

Add to that impression, the following. I raid no more than once per week, since I do not want to take away any more time from that which I spend with my kids (I usually play 1-2hrs after they are in bed). I feel blessed to be part of a guild that is casual enough to allow me to raid with such low attendance rates. For the first time in WotLK, we not only had enough healers, but one too many. I decided at the conclusion of that raid to change my focus to getting dps-gear, feeling my healing gear was good enough. I do not want to go in as dps unless and until my gear is good enough to be worthwhile, to not have to be carried. With my casual attendance, I do everything possible to earn & justify my spot when I am there.

Just as I am about to log, I get an invite to Vault and Archie is dead about 6min after I get the invite. I was busy rezzing the two folks who like to stand in the clouds, and so the first I knew of the drop was when the raid leader announced "priests roll [valorous raiments]". So I rolled. My first thought was "great, here is that chance to improve my dps gear", as I had just decided to prioritize. So in the 10sec available to decide, I quickly scanned the healing recount, saw one priest on the heal meter, and one priest waaay down the list, likely meaning VE heals, likely meaning shadow (or a really really bad healer...I didnt look at anything but the total)....and I rolled. I confess that I didn't want to lose my roll from thinking too long...I have lost loot like that before, it being awarded before I could decide if something was sufficient upgrade to roll on. So I rolled...and didn't say anything about giving to the other priest is he was indeed shadow.

Again, I was biased my past experiences of Vault into thinking the main>off rule wasn't really used there, and figured I was earning my shot by healing, rather than respec'ing shadow and doing poorly (and didn't really have the time)....and was in the mindset of "cool, one more thing to help our guild progression."

I then got the whisper "you're a healer, jerk" and put on ignore.

Well, being called names doesn't really put one in a mood of rational self-assessment. I just thought "poor loser", that is how Vault works and I'm planning on making good use of it, I did nothing wrong. I logged and went to bed with 3min of hearthing.

But...when I woke up, I started thinking rationally about it. And started thinking, "I shoulda passed" or at least announced that I want it only if the other priest is shadow. That is what I would have done if the other priest was a friend or guildmate. It is what I should have done.

So...I didn't think I was being a dick or a loot-whore...at the time. I didn't break any established rule, was awarded it by the master looter, and was doing it to further prepare myself. I didn't just go "look, shiny..me want." And I was still under the strong impression from prior experience that no one used main>offspec for Archavon.

I decided then the other priest's negativity wasn't a matter of sour grapes, but of my acting like -- to all appearances -- a dick. But...I was still wondering if maybe everyone really does treat Archie as different, the exception to main>off. So I posted here to gather some opinion. And yep, you all mostly agree it was a mistake, some more harshly than others. It was erroneously thinking, one which in retrospect I'm goggling at my thought process.

Hell, as I am sure many are thinking, even IF the majority treat Archavon as if spec was irrelevant, I shouldn't have. I agree. Again, it is one of those things where I wonder at myself and ask "what were you thinking", and where the answer mainly is "I wasn't".

It was wrong because I did what I try hard to avoid. I created a sense of being wronged, a sense that others are too selfish to treat people decently. Was/am I a dick? I don't think so. Did what I did give the other person a legitimate reason to think I was a dick?

Yeah, I think so.

In case anyone cares, I'll post later when the ticket gets resolved.

[maladroit2000]

I guess the moral of the story is to establish rolling rules at the start of the instance.

I do understand the OP point of view. I am feral and have all the best available 5 man tanking loot and am working on building up my dps set. It is much harder to get a group as dps than tank so I start a group as bear and inform anyone who joins the group that I will be rolling on dps items X/Y etc even though I am tanking. If they don't like it they can find a different group. Almost always they are ok with it.

[tylrdiablos]

if you want the dps chest, run as dps. i would be omgwtfbbqpissedtheefffout if you rolled against me for your "offspec". good luck with pugs in the future. i think you might be blacklisted by a few people by now.

Agreed.

I've had 3/4 invites to Heroic Azjol Nerub recently and everytime I've joined the party I've had someone ask if I plan to need roll on the Essence of Gossamer (http://www.wowdigger.com/i/37220) trinket.
I'm the Tank, of course I want the extra 1000+ health and chance of a protective barrier.
It seems everyone in the party wants it too irregardless of spec/role and the group quickly falls apart.


So to sum up, take what you can use NOW, not 6 months from now.

Else you deserve to be blacklisted.

[clevins]

Dr - class move to open the ticket.

Others - it's one thing to roll on offspec stuff in a 5 man. The item we're talking about is one of the best shadowpriest chests in the game though, and it's not obtainable outside of raids (though the 10 man version is).

My strong reaction here was because of 2 things. DrO had the healing version of this chest already and had no definite plans to run as shadow. The healing version of the chest is still very good for dps aside from having hit, so aside from raiding as shadow, there wasn't a reason to grab this too.

If both priests had been in blues, my thoughts would have been much different since even for a healer this would have been a significant upgrade, though not optimal.

[drewid]

I agree only need if its for your current Spec, pretty simple human etiquette.

How ever you will not even please everyone when you do this.
I was main tank healer in a PUG 25 OS the other day (respecced Holy, for my guild who are starting to man up for 25 mans, a couple of days earlier) , a trinket (Illustration of the Dragon Soul ) dropped.
We did have master loot on and the RL let all healers and caster DPS roll on it. I won it (Yey!) but then i had a warrior going off in Raid chat that i better be a healer in my normal spec not just for this raid because his guildy missed out on it..........

[clevins]

The warrior was offbase. That's an excellent trinket for most casters, not just healers.

[ptarn]

And by the looks of it, everything went as it should be. So that warrior's just a sore loser or just wanted to whine about something, I guess...

[DrOsmius]

The Raiments were transferred <grin>, and I even gave the shadowpriest a pair of gems for the week's worth of negativity. He was very happy...and I believe it is his first epic as well.

[ptarn]

And that gets a resounding WOOHOO from me! Very nice way of handling this! /salute

[clevins]

Nice move. Very classy.

[irogue]

The Raiments were transferred <grin>, and I even gave the shadowpriest a pair of gems for the week's worth of negativity. He was very happy...and I believe it is his first epic as well.

Interesting... I am not sure if you spoiled that shadow priest (teenager?) or set a good example for all of us.

If there was a master looter, he or she would ask main spec or off spec to roll on it. Apparently, it is a pug and free roll so anyone can roll it if they can use it.

He did get a chance to roll it and lost it.

/roll -> lose or win -> shut up and move on

These phat loots become garbage in a few months.

[elsegundo]

glad things worked out well. =]

[clevins]

irogue... do everyone a favor and read the thread. Been over this ground.

[mesonm]

irogue... do everyone a favor and read the thread. Been over this ground.

He has an opinion, and shared it...np with that, IMO.

[Twoflower]

i am still not convinced, and clevins cant change that, no matter how often he reminds me to read the thread. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[clevins]

He has an opinion, and shared it...np with that, IMO.

didn't say there was a problems sharing... but when you've already been over the ground he's commenting on I'd rather point out that we've covered it than cover it again. However...

What 2F and others miss is that DrO HAD the holy version. That, to me, was a KEY point. As I said later, if both were coming from blues that would have changed things quite a bit. It's not that you *can't* roll on whatever you want n a PUG, it's about not being a dick. After all, I could roll on anything... even the stuff I can't use and would vendor. But that would be dickish. In the same way to roll against someone for an item that's the a high end piece just because seemed dickish. We can't bemoan the silly crap that takes place in PUGs then excuse it too.

DrO did the right thing and tossing in the gems was a nice touch.

[Twoflower]

What 2F and others miss is that DrO HAD the holy version.

no, i didnt miss that. Making your point yet again won't convince me either.

[drewid]

It is a PuG, you can roll on anything you need. If people care about speccs, they can run the instances with their guild. I wouldnt even start to argue.

I find this an amazing point of view.... It would be great if we all had super guilds and had 25 suitable guildies online ready and unsaved for a run at the one time.

Unfortunately alot of people dont. I would say the vast majority dont have this luxury, so under your assumptions or ideas of what a pug is and should be, we should all cave in and become primal beasts and give into instincts of Oh Shiny ..Me want me take!

Just because its a pug doesnt mean it needs to be a free for all, lots of us are mature reasonable people and there is no reason that a PUG cant be organised and fair....

[clevins]

2F - so in the PUG CoS I ran a couple of months ago, was the fury warrior OK to roll on Jetze's Bell, a top epic BoP caster trinket? After all, it was a pug. He Needed it and made some gold off it. If that's not OK where do you draw the line?

You're just saying "F*** anyone who's not in my guild" basically. I try to actually be a reasonable person though, not an asshat - and your rules mean one can be a total asshat and be just fine - that everyone outside of your guild is not worthy of any consideration as a person and it's fine to screw them for the sake of some loot. (NOTE!!! I'm NOT saying DrO is an asshat... don't be obtuse folks).

[mesonm]

didn't say there was a problems sharing... but when you've already been over the ground he's commenting on I'd rather point out that we've covered it than cover it again. However...


gotcha...

...the guy you commented on can't re-express already covered ground, but you can....?

:thumbsup:

[clevins]

gotcha...



...the guy you commented on can't re-express already covered ground, but you can....?

:thumbsup:

Sigh... grow up. Playing gotcha? what are you 13?

[Cattleya]

I find this an amazing point of view.... It would be great if we all had super guilds and had 25 suitable guildies online ready and unsaved for a run at the one time.

Unfortunately alot of people dont. I would say the vast majority dont have this luxury, so under your assumptions or ideas of what a pug is and should be, we should all cave in and become primal beasts and give into instincts of Oh Shiny ..Me want me take!

Just because its a pug doesnt mean it needs to be a free for all, lots of us are mature reasonable people and there is no reason that a PUG cant be organised and fair....

I think Archavon manages to fall in it's own little catagory. It's a 25 man raid, that drops 25 man quality loot, and it can be pugged with several people in the raid being complete morons in crap gear who couldn't get through a heroic dungeon. It's all about the free loot.

Now, it's perfectly okay to pass on off spec gear in a free for all situation if that's what feels right to you. However, someone who rolls on offspec in such a situation is not somehow morally bad, as a lot of people here seem to imply. They certainly aren't any worse than someone with no gems and enchants who spent the entire raid studying the floor rolling on gear.

Find out what the loot rules are up front, and if you don't like them, find another group. If you stay with that group, don't cry about the rules.

[drewid]

I think Archavon manages to fall in it's own little catagory. It's a 25 man raid, that drops 25 man quality loot, and it can be pugged with several people in the raid being complete morons in crap gear who couldn't get through a heroic dungeon. It's all about the free loot.

Now, it's perfectly okay to pass on off spec gear in a free for all situation if that's what feels right to you. However, someone who rolls on offspec in such a situation is not somehow morally bad, as a lot of people here seem to imply. They certainly aren't any worse than someone with no gems and enchants who spent the entire raid studying the floor rolling on gear.

Find out what the loot rules are up front, and if you don't like them, find another group. If you stay with that group, don't cry about the rules.

I agree about knowing the loot rules upfront thats fine.
Its the perception that because its a PUG then its a free for all, is what i find hard to swallow. Why should a 25 man pug loot rules be different to a 5 man pug?

[vincentcloud]

In a PUG if something drops you want you roll period. Most pugs now say roll for main spec and they will inspect you and see if you are holy or DPS. I personally do it myself and I dont have problem with out ppl who do it. If I really wanted someone to no roll off spec for it then I would run with my guild.

[Twoflower]

2F - so in the PUG CoS I ran a couple of months ago, was the fury warrior OK to roll on Jetze's Bell, a top epic BoP caster trinket? After all, it was a pug. He Needed it and made some gold off it. If that's not OK where do you draw the line?


if you roll on something to wear/use it, it is need.

if you roll on something to make money of it, it is greed.

if you want any more elaborate loot rules, you have to clear it before the run.

it aint rocket science.

and moderate your language a bit. ( specialy in the part i deleted from the quote ). You can bring your point across alot better if you dont try to insult anyone who has another point of view.

[mesonm]

Sigh... grow up. Playing gotcha? what are you 13?

Guess both of us could ask that question....In any case, the guy got to express his opinion, which is what was important.

[DrOsmius]

I think Archavon manages to fall in it's own little catagory. It's a 25 man raid, that drops 25 man quality loot, and it can be pugged with several people in the raid being complete morons in crap gear who couldn't get through a heroic dungeon. It's all about the free loot.

Find out what the loot rules are up front... .

Basically, this was the heart of my "error"...I had the strong impression that it fell into its own category, and no raid leader had every announced a loot rule; just "[class]: roll on [epic]". Hence in the moment, nothing seemed wrong on my part.

But I quickly decided (opened transfer ticket the next day upon login) that if I would pass offspec to a friend/guildee, I should pass to a pugmate. He was my teammate, even if briefly, and deserved the same consideration (in my mind) that a friend would get.

But Cattleya does indeed confirm that I am at least not alone in my opinion (at the time) that Archie is thought of differently.

[dwarfenhelm]

so lets get this right. voa is not classed as a normal pug raid? so you can roll on what ever you like as long as it can get some use not matter how minor. and if they care about loot tough go with guild or go without?
well frankly its players with views like this that give pugs a bad name in the first place. you think voa fits into its own braket because most guilds cant be arsed with the place. most players go on pugs to better their char and have some ignorant ... roll on of spec when a main needs it is just wrong. if YOU want to gear your off spec then use YOUR guild runs to do it in and not ruin the chances of the players who are in guilds that cant run the correct 25 man raids

[ptarn]

Euh? Why is VoA in 'a class of its own'? I treat it just as I would treat any other (heroic) dungeon. The fact that VoA is a short raid when done right, doesn't make it any different from other dungeons in my eyes. When loot rules are not discussed, I assume we use the more or less 'default rules', which means:

1.) Roll need if you really need it (means: can REALLY USE IT) for you MAIN SPEC.
2.) Otherwise roll greed.
3.) Off-specs are NOT considered.

To me the above rules apply UNLESS STATED OTHERWISE BEFORE THE RAID/GROUP BEGINS. I think if everyone plays pugs with these rules in mind, the overal gaming experience would improve, save for the occasional stupid dumb*ss who thinks it's normal to either ninja or set loot rules that only benefit him-/herself.

(P.S. I do NOT imply anyone who's responded in this thread with my last statement!)

[DrOsmius]

so lets get this right. voa is not classed as a normal pug raid?


To make it as clear as I can: it "seemed" that this was the common viewpoint. To recapitulate, my experience was that no main>off loot rule had ever been given, and I had been beaten for my healing-robes by a shadowpriest before.

I quickly decided it is/was like any other raid/instance, and this thread confirms that most people also think this way as well.


Oh...and while we are at it, I'm curious about opinions on the pvp gear, i.e. deadly mooncloth vs deadly satin? I'm only interested in the mooncloth, but the satin is essentially the same, trading spirit for crit.

[rgirty]

I'm very generous when it comes to loot, i've been to and led hundreds of pug raids.

I used to run pug gruul and void reaver raids that I posted on the officials of our realms for sign ups.

IMO non guild pug loot raids for bosses who are essentially loot pinatas are the exact situation one uses to gear up for off spec/dual spec or pvp gear.

When you join a pug you should know that everyone is there for loot and if they can equip it they will roll on it for the most part.

Would I have rolled on it? Meh, probably not. For a couple of reasons.

The priest tier 7.5 dps chest is not that great. The spellweave robe is a better item.

My guild clears naxx25 and naxx10 (like most other guilds) every week so I have a lot of chances to get a much better item.

For someone that does not have many opportunity for better items (even tho spellweave is a boe tailored item) I can see rolling on it.

Should you roll? I think each person may answer that differently, however in a pug situation it is expected that every class that could equip any tier piece that drops would roll.

That is what I have experienced in all the pug raids I have led/participated in.

DST from gruul dropped once or twice back in the day, every time there would be a huge grumble over what class it was best for. I believe that it was indeed best for rogues, however we allowed all melee classes to roll on it.

That is the nature of the pug, and why so many people participate in them IMO.

If people couldn't roll on offspec gear I don't think you would see as many people attempting to pug it.

just my 2cp

[Cattleya]

so lets get this right. voa is not classed as a normal pug raid? so you can roll on what ever you like as long as it can get some use not matter how minor. and if they care about loot tough go with guild or go without? Or find a pug that uses a need before greed roll rule. They aren't hard to find, just ask first what the rules are. (Heck, I'm betting in a lot of pugs if you bring it up before the run, you could easily convince everyone to go with need before greed rules.)

[Redhole]

I'm with Twoflower on this. The built in system is perfect for pugs:

Need: Will use it
Greed: Will sell it

May the best roll win.

Rules are of course different with friends and guildmates.

[dwarfenhelm]

i just think its basicacly polite to ask before you need roll on off spec gear. what gives you the right to gear your off spec or alts up before someones main char.

[clevins]

Or find a pug that uses a need before greed roll rule. They aren't hard to find, just ask first what the rules are. (Heck, I'm betting in a lot of pugs if you bring it up before the run, you could easily convince everyone to go with need before greed rules.)

And someone can click Need regardless. "I 'need' it for when I quest/solo/etc!!" Need should be "this is an upgrade for me in the role I usually play" not "I can equip it."

It's not hard... someone above got it. Need = upgrade for my spec, Greed = can use it for offspec. The issue is that a lot of PUG VOAs don't use the built in system but have people roll manually and then ML it to the highest roll... so there's no way to 'click Need' as it were.

Also, it's not about what you CAN do... of course the OP was within their rights to roll. It's about what you SHOULD do. There's damn little justification for rolling on a top tier price of gear when it's going to mostly sit in your bank since it's offspec.

[maladroit2000]

It will be interesting to see how dual speccing affects this debate. There might be several people changing specs during a raid, depending on the particular fight. Someone who has been shadow for half the dungeon and then changes to Holy for a particular fight - what will they be entitled to?

And also the "My other spec is Balance/Retri/Fury" arguments will happen.

[Cattleya]

And someone can click Need regardless. "I 'need' it for when I quest/solo/etc!!" Need should be "this is an upgrade for me in the role I usually play" not "I can equip it."

It's not hard... someone above got it. Need = upgrade for my spec, Greed = can use it for offspec. The issue is that a lot of PUG VOAs don't use the built in system but have people roll manually and then ML it to the highest roll... so there's no way to 'click Need' as it were.
I didn't mean that such groups had to use group loot, only that the master looter would ask for main spec rolls first. That allows time for discussion of what really counts as a main spec roll.

Also, it's not about what you CAN do... of course the OP was within their rights to roll. It's about what you SHOULD do. There's damn little justification for rolling on a top tier price of gear when it's going to mostly sit in your bank since it's offspec.
I suppose we are talking about different things then. What I actually would do, and what I would feel within my rights to do (given the rules) are two completely different things. For example, I was in a Maly 10 pug and the caster mace with spirit and haste dropped. Now, I have the staff from Sarth 25, so the weapon would go for my haste set, which is still main spec, but not an "all the time" weapon. (Although give current content, it probably would see more use than the staff.) So, I decided not to roll with the main spec rolls on it, because I didn't feel I needed it that badly. It still would have been perfectly acceptable for me to roll on it though, had I chosen to.

By the way, the weapon went to a paladin. :rolleyes:

Would I have rolled on that chestpiece in Archavon? Probably not. Would I have pitched a fit over someone who took if for offspec. Not at all, assuming that the established rules allowed it.

I guess my point is that it's never worth it to get overly worked up over loot in a pug. You can hope that people won't be stupid or asses about loot, but at the end of the day, you will be happiest if you just go with the flow and don't stress on it. Holy pally rolling on the spirit ring because he's sporting some blue? Whatever. Warlock wants the Foresight Talisman (which has heal over time proc effect that procs off of heals) because it's a big spellpower upgrade for him? Fine. The simple truth is that there are no drops rare enough in puggable content to ever stress out over.

Follow the rules set up by the raid leader, and make decisions based on your own personal feelings on the matter, and everything should work out fine.

[clevins]

Yeah, that all sounds reasonable. The difficulty comes, I think, when raid loot IS hard to get for someone because their guild's not raiding, say, VOA and the only way they can get it is to run it over and over in a PUG. I've pugged VoA several times and seen ANY priest item drop... once. My guild does Naxx 10 and 25 and I don't care that much, so meh... but if the only way you had to get raid level gear was pugs and after 2 months something dropped that was a great piece for you... then someone else took it for an offspec? Yeah, I'd be annoyed. And before anyone chimes in with 'dump that scrub guild' a lot of times people stay in smaller guilds for social reasons... doesn't mean they don't care about gear though.

[Cattleya]

And before anyone chimes in with 'dump that scrub guild' a lot of times people stay in smaller guilds for social reasons... doesn't mean they don't care about gear though.

Well, given that I haven't been in a guild since the start of November, I'm not going to be telling anyone to "find a better guild." I might however tell them to find better pugs. :laughing:

[Tort]

Dual Specs won't change a thing in regards to loot. You still won't be able to change specs in the middle of combat. Therefore even if (for some strange reason) you were specced as a shadow priest for the trash in Archevon and then respeced to holy right before pulling Archevon himself, you would still only be holy spec when the loot drops. Your MAIN SPEC during the fight was holy.

The default loot rules for a raid group, whether it is a pug or an organized guild run, have been the same pretty much since WoW was released. You roll need on main spec items, and you roll greed on offspec items.

There is a reason why it is extremely rare to see a guild or pug run using the built in need/greed roll system to distribute loot. The current roll system is flawed and doesn't match up with how loot actually works in a group or raid. I've always thought it would be better if Blizzard added a third loot category: Need (Main Spec), Need (Off Spec) and Greed. In this present case, the OP would (or should have) pressed the Need (Off Spec) button, and therefore would have lost the roll to the guy who rolled on the Need (main Spec). And again, you can only have one spec during a fight, dual spec will never change that.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I didn't read all 9 pages but no, you should have passed.

Before I start a pug I whisper all the people in my class and ask them what spec they are, then I whisper the raid leader to make sure we are rolling main spec only.

If I don't like the rules, I leave and in 5 minutes I'm in another group.

[dgrampa]

Dual Specs won't change a thing in regards to loot. You still won't be able to change specs in the middle of combat. Therefore even if (for some strange reason) you were specced as a shadow priest for the trash in Archevon and then respeced to holy right before pulling Archevon himself, you would still only be holy spec when the loot drops. Your MAIN SPEC during the fight was holy.

The default loot rules for a raid group, whether it is a pug or an organized guild run, have been the same pretty much since WoW was released. You roll need on main spec items, and you roll greed on offspec items.

There is a reason why it is extremely rare to see a guild or pug run using the built in need/greed roll system to distribute loot. The current roll system is flawed and doesn't match up with how loot actually works in a group or raid. I've always thought it would be better if Blizzard added a third loot category: Need (Main Spec), Need (Off Spec) and Greed. In this present case, the OP would (or should have) pressed the Need (Off Spec) button, and therefore would have lost the roll to the guy who rolled on the Need (main Spec). And again, you can only have one spec during a fight, dual spec will never change that.


I don't understand this train of thinking. Say a shadow priest wants a drop from VoA but the only PUG he can find only needs a healer. Why should he not be able to respec holy for the run but still roll on DPS gear?

[clevins]

I don't understand this train of thinking. Say a shadow priest wants a drop from VoA but the only PUG he can find only needs a healer. Why should he not be able to respec holy for the run but still roll on DPS gear?

In a PUG the hard thing will be to know that he really IS usually shadow and not just being a loot whore. In a guild group or a group of people who regularly PUG together, that works. In a group of random folks, it's problematic. After all, what if you were the other priest in that pug and had come as shadow? DPS piece drops... and the guy specced Holy rolls because he says he's usually shadow... is he?

Oh and in an ironic twist... I ran a guild 10 man vault just because I was on when they won WG. I'm the only priest in the group... and BOTH drops are the priest legs, one holy, one shadow. Sigh... Not only did I feel badly but I didn't actually need them since I have Leggings of Atrophy of Anub'rehkan 25. I was just there to help out.

I really wish they would move to tokens for the drops or game the RNG so that in 10 man diff class items drop and in 25 no more than 2 of the items can be one classes. A friend of mine did a guild heroic Vault with one DK and 3 of the 4 items were DK.

[Alaris Mystique]

I don't understand this train of thinking. Say a shadow priest wants a drop from VoA but the only PUG he can find only needs a healer. Why should he not be able to respec holy for the run but still roll on DPS gear?

Agreed.

Personally, I think you should declare which build you want to roll for, and that is considered your main for the duration of the raid. What you use during the raid should depend on what the group needs, and what you're willing to play... not what you want to roll for.

In a PUG the hard thing will be to know that he really IS usually shadow and not just being a loot whore. In a guild group or a group of people who regularly PUG together, that works.

Doesn't matter what he usually is by my solution, what matters is what he calls for when the raid begins. The problem is keeping track of who called what, but with paper & pencil, it's not that hard.

[clevins]

Agreed.

Personally, I think you should declare which build you want to roll for, and that is considered your main for the duration of the raid. What you use during the raid should depend on what the group needs, and what you're willing to play... not what you want to roll for.



Doesn't matter what he usually is by my solution, what matters is what he calls for when the raid begins. The problem is keeping track of who called what, but with paper & pencil, it's not that hard.

I'm not sure, but I think you just argued both sides of the issue. dgrampa was arguing that someone should be able to respec holy, but still roll on shadow gear. That contradicts the 'roll as the spec you just raided as' point of view.Note that this particular raid is very often done in PUGs since it's maybe 10-15 minutes and dead easy. Guild runs are, of course, different.

[elsegundo]

I'm not sure, but I think you just argued both sides of the issue. dgrampa was arguing that someone should be able to respec holy, but still roll on shadow gear. That contradicts the 'roll as the spec you just raided as' point of view.Note that this particular raid is very often done in PUGs since it's maybe 10-15 minutes and dead easy. Guild runs are, of course, different.

i think he means both. roll your spec, but also negotiate ahead of time if you can roll on your offspec.


not exactly the same, but i do tell rogues i will roll on leather dps gear drios even though im a druid tank. some agree, some dont and leave or negotiate more with me.
i also tell casters i will roll on cloth gear drops if it has better stats, as a boomkin/healer hybrid. most are fine with it, some arent and leave or negotiate more with me.

[clevins]

Ah, gotcha. That works in five mans I think, but less well in a 25 man pug.

[Cattleya]

Ah, gotcha. That works in five mans I think, but less well in a 25 man pug.

I don't know that it's that hard in a 25 man pug. Once the raid forms, you just type in raid that you came as a healer to help the group, but your main spec is dps, and that is the gear you will be rolling on as main spec. As long as someone does this before the loot actually drops, I don't see any issues. (And if they didn't say anything, they roll main on whatever they came as.)

[clevins]

Oh yeah... i can just see more people whining about it and doing the "well *I* amd usually X so I'll roll on that.." It's not the logistics it's the attitude.