Level 10-21 vs endgame

[Alaris Mystique]

This post is to find out if what impressions I have of gameplay will hold relatively well with endgame... because I am slowly evolving my gameplay towards spending more time on fewer characters. Probably 1 per side will get 90% of my play time.

The point of this thread is that if my early-game impressions don't hold up in endgame, I need to know now. It might well affect my choices, because I'd rather persist with playing characters that will be fun in endgame than end up disappointed with my choices later on.

I have:

Horde:
Troll Hunter (20)
Blood Elf Warlock (16)
Tauren Shaman (16)
Undead Priest (10)

Alliance:
Night Elf Druid (21)
Draenei Mage (12)
Human Death Knight (planned)

Impressions:

Of the two pet classes, I slightly prefer the hunter because he is more resilient. However, I prefer the DoT gameplay, and the summons, of the Warlock. I find the gameplay of the hunter a bit boring in comparison. Will the Warlock remain fragile, or will I get better defensive skills? Does the hunter get more fun to play?

Shaman is losing favor quickly. Like the druid, it's a class based on versatility. But unlike the druid, the shaman seems to do everything equally badly. It seems that they balanced the ability to do every role at once by reducing his effectiveness at all those roles. In contrast, the Druid has to shapeshift to use one or the other role, which is the drawback to his overall effectiveness. I like playing druid, and I love to flip roles during a fight. Mind you, I have not been using totems much, so that might be it...

Priest... is level 10 only because I can't get myself to play a healer class as a dps caster. It seems wrong from a roleplay perspective. However, I have enjoyed healing on the few occasions where I could do it on all 3 healing-capable chars. Are there places I can go and reliably get into groups, where I can play mainly as healer? It'd be preferable if I can do so in short gaming bursts, as I have a hard time balancing life & play, and I often get short bursts of playtime.

Mage is also low level, strangely, because normally I do enjoy ranged attackers (though more of the medium-armored type). My impression is that there are lots of spells that are variants on the dps idea, with some having cc/slow/dot as a bonus side-effect. It gives me the impression that the gameplay is quite single-minded. Does the classe become more versatile, or is it stuck to mainly playing the nuker? I've heard that they get a summon elemental... when, and how does that affect gameplay? Surely their summon can't compare to a warlocks' choice of summons, can it?

At this point, I will probably end up playing mainly one of the two pet classes, but I have not settled on which yet. That, and druid is currently winning my favor.

Thanks...

PS: I am not against making a new character, so pls advise on the classes above and disregard horde/alliance sides.
PS: Talking about it is almost as much fun as actually playing it.

[dgrampa]

If you like playing the druid, I would advise you to choose it as your main. Druids offer so much versatility. You can be a great healer, a great tank, a good melee DPS or a decent ranged DPS, depending on your mood for the day. Getting past 20 is the toughest hurdle for playing a druid, so it should be smooth sailing from now on. This class wil give you the most options for end game play.

The hunter is pretty much accepted as the easiest solo leveling class. If you like a challenge, the hunter will not be for you. As with the mage and warlock, you will be locked into DPS for end game. If you plan to PvP, the warlock would probably be the best choice of the 3. You will get more defensive skills as you level up. Look up 'chain fear' for an idea of a warlock's abilities. The mage's main role for end game is definitely a nuker. They also have great AoE and CC spells. The elemental you are asking about is the water elemental. It is a spell mages gain in the frost talent tree. You can summon him once every 3 minutes and he only lasts for 45 seconds without talents.

The shaman can be a very powerful and somewhat versatile class for end game. Not quite as versatile as the druid, as you won't be able to tank, but you can play the other 3 roles well. The totems will become more and more a part of the shaman's playstyle as you level up more. You should use the enhancement tree if you want the most efficient leveling build.

The priest will be very difficult to level as a healer, especially under the conditions you mention. Once you hit about 40ish you might be able to do it as people are ALWAYS looking for healers to run instances, but those instances will require you to commit a few hours to complete them.

I'd suggest your druid and warlock. But if you really like the hunter better, you can always make it more challenging and fun by learning how to chain pull multiple mobs non stop all the way to 80.

[Your Average WoW Player]

The shaman can be a very powerful and somewhat versatile class for end game. Not quite as versatile as the druid, as you won't be able to tank, but you can play the other 3 roles well. The totems will become more and more a part of the shaman's playstyle as you level up more. You should use the enhancement tree if you want the most efficient leveling build.


Actually it's sort of the opposite. As you level up, most shamans end up using their totems in soloing and questing less and less and less. For standard issue bashing and grinding after like level 20, I was rarely using totems, unless I saw that they could actually be of use (IE: I could kill many things without moving for a good length of time). Totems really don't start playing a major role until end game raiding. For the most part after 20, I'd drop water spring to help recover mana (leveling Elemental specc, wheee!), and Earthbind if I needed to book it, Stoneclaw if I could handle accidentally pulling two or three mobs and grounding totem for caster mobs.

Beyond that it was nothing unless I was grouping or taking down elite mobs solo (which I could do).

One thing I will say in response to the OP's question is: Play what you want to play. Even if Boomkin Druids are in really low demand, if you play what you want to play, and you learn it, you'll have more fun in the long run.
Remember this:
Playing what they want you to play will get you into the top level raiding guilds. Playing what YOU want to play will KEEP you in the top level raiding guilds, even if it takes you longer to get into it.

[Wizler]

You also mentioned that you like the healer role which a druid can do well.

[Alaris Mystique]

The hunter is pretty much accepted as the easiest solo leveling class. If you like a challenge, the hunter will not be for you.

You can summon him once every 3 minutes and he only lasts for 45 seconds without talents.

The priest will be very difficult to level as a healer, especially under the conditions you mention.

Challenge is relative especially in a game like WoW. If I want challenge, I can just beat up mobs of higher level.

What I meant here is "challenging gameplay" as in tactically complex enough to stay interesting. For example, with fear and dot, you are given a choice to send foes away to deal with them 1 on 1 (risking more mobs) and/or getting more mobs involved by dot'ing many of them at once. I don't really see the hunter as having to make such choices... am I wrong though? Do the hunters evolve into a gameplay where tactical choices become more important? If so, around what levels can I expect this change?

Thanks for the rest of the info, very useful stuff.

Shame for the priest though... I've played other games where I enjoyed being a healer, but looks like WoW was simply not built around having healers function as healers from the get go. You really need to be in a group to make healing interesting (self-healing is also not fun).

As you level up, most shamans end up using their totems in soloing and questing less and less and less.

One thing I will say in response to the OP's question is: Play what you want to play.

Thanks for info on shaman. My play style with the shaman if fairly hybrid at the moment... Nuke from a distance, then bash at close range. I guess I need to try using totems more, as they would make a difference for me at the moment...

"What classes are needed" is a relatively small part of my decision of which class I'll play. I won't play something I don't enjoy, there's just no point to it. Besides, I'm not playing WoW with the goal of getting in raiding guilds... I'm more into the lore and into having fun.

Afterall, tanks are also in demand, but I'm not making a warrior or paladin. I make an exception with DK because (1) he starts at 55, so that's a lot of grind skipped, and (2) honestly, it sounds more fun than warrior or paladin.

[dgrampa]

Any of the classes can be made more tactically complex if you delve into them enough, including the hunter. Once you are high enough level, you can learn to have your pet tank 2 mobs while you chain freeze trap a 3rd and kite kill a 4th, all while keeping your pet healed. Even better, at the end of all that you can still have full mana and just pull 4 more mobs. So yeah, you can find ways to make the hunter more fun.

[clevins]

I leveled a priest as shadow and you can group heal as you level. Healing is very much a support thing though - it's not that useful outside of groups (and, of course, as an aid to quickly recovering after a solo fight).

Lock vs druid... Things to consider is pet managment vs versatility. The druid is the most versatile class in the game and would be my next to level if I were inclined to level another toon. The lock is fun for the reasons you cite, but you have to manage a pet. Some love this, others hate it. Locks do get drain life etc that makes them among the more hardy of the casters, but all casters in WoW are relatively fragile - it's the balancing act to letting them do damage from a distance.


Endgame - If I were to pick one, I'd pick the druid since, when played well and geared correctly they are very good at all 4 roles. That lets you move from role to role and keep some variety. If you know you LOVE to dps from a range, the lock.

[Alaris Mystique]

You also mentioned that you like the healer role which a druid can do well.

Yes yes... Druid is definately up there in the competition, and from what I keep hearing, all the things that make druid fun remain the same in endgame, so that's great.

Any of the classes can be made more tactically complex if you delve into them enough, including the hunter. (...) So yeah, you can find ways to make the hunter more fun.

More fun, and more effective I assume, right? I assume here in your example that if you tackle 4 mobs, is so you bring up you kill/hour ratio, right?

Good to know. Because I was reading your example of multitasking a hunter, and it sounds a lot more fun than how I'm currently playing it.

[mmorpg man]

theoritically a survival hunter can take down 5 mobs at once, pet tanking 2 mobs, then you trapping 2 more mobs (it is possible trust me) and kite killing the fifth.

if you ever get bored of a character, then 1 way to get back into them is take a break from leveling and do some battlegrounds. I had an awsome time on my druid at level 19, using entangling roots on anyone foolish enough to get into my range. so much fun

[Mazhulsage]

Druid by far is one of the most versatile, but at the same time GREAT at what it does, classes IMO.

I mean, DK's are probably my favorite class in the game simply because they're what Rogues should be (Again, my opinion.) and I just enjoy the Rogue-esque style they have, while being able to have better armor and health, along with heal while damaging, and after killing enemies.

[Alaris Mystique]

So, dk's are kinda in-between warriors and rogues in terms of armor & damage, plus some nice utility?

[clevins]

DKs are v good tanks and dps... more magic oriented with a strong melee component.

[Mazhulsage]

Err, well, I've always considered the "light-medium damage build up, medium-large ending, repeat" to be more of a Rogue characteristic... Which I thought Rogues were... As it turns out it's more of a "2, 2, 2, 2, 3, repeat" thing, whereas DK's are 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, repeat thing.

[Alaris Mystique]

Cool...

As long as dk's are not too much like *my concept of a rogue*...

I'll have close to no tanking experience when I get there though... Watch out for yet another newbie tank!

[waytofailself]

This post will demonstrate that I've leveled too many alts. However, I'll try and answer the basic question of this thread as best I can from my experiences, "How are these guys at X level compared to endgame"

Horde:
Troll Hunter (20): As this is the level you get aspect of the cheetah and freezing trap, you're really starting to see what a hunter can do. The bigger difference comes at level 30, when you can start to feign death and lose mobs. Playstyle is pretty similar to Beast Mastery at 80 because you aren't as focused on rotations with that endgame spec.

Blood Elf Warlock (16): You seem to have the fearkiting down, and that can be a large portion of solo play, but Seed of Corruption at 70 really changes the game for you. No matter what spec, this is one of the most complex classes to play between pushing buttons and pet management.

Tauren Shaman (16): At level 16 you're not really seeing what the shaman has to offer. In fact, leveling a shaman is a pain in the butt until you get windfury weapon at 30 and dual weilding at 40. Switching to elemental at 60 is strongly recommended once you get some outland gear that can support the spec. The reason it currently feels so simplistic is because it is...there's not much to it except swinging. Shaman healing relies on chain heal, which you will get soon if you don't have already, Lesser healing wave, which you do have, and riptide, which you won't have for awhile.

Undead Priest (10): Way too early to see. Psychic scream comes soon, and that adds a layer to gameplay. If you go shadow, that adds another later with vampiric touch. By that point you're getting a better idea. I can't speak as much about healing.

Alliance:
Night Elf Druid (21): congrats! You have lolcat form. Pounce is a great opener when you get it and mangle while soloing. Bear tanking doesn't come into its own until you get mangle (and to a lesser extent, lacerate), but you can still do it. Druid healing is over simplistic with hots and (presumably) glyphed healing touch until you get lifebloom and wild growth. Lifebloom is your friend. As for balance, you can already practice your moonkin rotation by 21. That isn't going to change too much.

Draenei Mage (12): I forget what level you get frost nova, but by 12 you can start to get a sense of the gameplay. The main thing at later levels is paying attention to procs, but for now you can practice on keeping from getting hit and keeping distance between you and your enemies. Even if Blizzard AoE grinding is a slower way to level now (I went from something like 28-46 before they buffed quests), it is still a valuable skill to learn.

Human Death Knight (planned): The opening quests do a good job of introing you to your abilities, but paying attention to resources makes this class pretty different. However, by the time you're out of the intro you're going to have most of the skills you will have at endgame. Outland is for you to practice. Unholy/frost (though unholy is a better leveling spec for the moment) AoE grinding is also a good skill to learn, because it's the basis for AoE tanking in instances if you choose to go that route.

[sanderke]

Based on what I've read I recommend the druid.

First off, you said that you like a ranged DPS class with mediocre armor, which is exactly what a Balance spec druid is (once they get moonkin form). The only true alternative WoW offers to this would be an Elemental shaman but you've already said that you don't like shamans.

You also mentioned you like healing, but unfortunately you can't really level up that way. (there's just not enough groups at lower levels)
As a druid you could level as feral or balance (either way is fine) and heal some of the pre-expansion instances. You'll have to keep a second set of gear around if you decide to level as Feral but you'll make a decent healer either way. If you want to continue being a healer you can always respec Resto at level 80 and do so all the time, or use the upcoming dual spec feature to have access to two specs.

As for complexity and interesting gameplay, if you only stick to a single form than druids aren't for you.
The fun with druids is that they can switch around quite easily and adapt to your mood at the time. Dual specs will make this even easier.

That said, I have one note to make about hunters (having played one for the good part of 3 years), they are one of the easiest classes to level but be warned, as your gear improves your pet will start to hold you back. (it can't hold aggro unless you hold your fire for the first 5-10 seconds of a fight)
Personally I hate to play cat and mouse games with my target because it won't stay focussed on my pet.

[TimeBeing]

a lot of the classes your looking at don't shine till higher levels.
priest can be slow to level but once you get Shadow Form they become power houses.

Druids are painful till 20 from what most have said.

Shamans i think are just slow period till at least you get dual wield.

All healing classes can heal early 5mans (up till about level 50) as DPS spec if you have healing/int/spirit gear to wear.

And yes healing will be the easiest way to get into late game 5 mans and raids.

Druid and priest i think have the more interesting healing experiences. (discipline healing is different from holy healing.)

if you want to PvP or just DPS Hunters are great. they are also great for solo questing. Their game play doesn't change so much form 10-80. it just kind of get enhanced, with new skills and traps, and stuff. warlock and mage are also like that. They get some cooler 'oh wow' abilities and their style can change up, but they tend to be nukers too.

[Alaris Mystique]

Troll Hunter (20): As this is the level you get aspect of the cheetah and freezing trap, you're really starting to see what a hunter can do.

Blood Elf Warlock (16): You seem to have the fearkiting down, and that can be a large portion of solo play, but Seed of Corruption at 70 really changes the game for you. No matter what spec, this is one of the most complex classes to play between pushing buttons and pet management.

Tauren Shaman (16): At level 16 you're not really seeing what the shaman has to offer. In fact, leveling a shaman is a pain in the butt until you get windfury weapon at 30 and dual weilding at 40.

Undead Priest (10): Way too early to see. Psychic scream comes soon, and that adds a layer to gameplay. If you go shadow, that adds another later with vampiric touch. By that point you're getting a better idea.

Night Elf Druid (21): congrats! You have lolcat form.

Draenei Mage (12): I forget what level you get frost nova, but by 12 you can start to get a sense of the gameplay.

Human Death Knight (planned): The opening quests do a good job of introing you to your abilities, but paying attention to resources makes this class pretty different.

Good info. Looks like I'll keep at it with pretty much all of them, because you're right, those I start getting bored of playing seem to pick up later. I can probably wait till 30-40 before making a choice... and tbh in endgame I'd prefer to have a versatile character than a one-trick pony.

Personally I hate to play cat and mouse games with my target because it won't stay focussed on my pet.

Good to know.

As for the druid, it's my favorite so far... but I still enjoy levelling multiple characters. I was mainly asking because if some of them are boring to me now and offer no real chance of picking up later, then I would just drop those.

I'll still level at least one on each side, if not more...

Shamans i think are just slow period till at least you get dual wield.

Thx for all the info.

[clevins]

waytofail's post is dead on I think. Nice summary of each option.

DKs - nothing like rogues. Rogues are all about attacking from stealth, quickly killing your opponent and escaping back into stealth. I like the gameplay of them quite a bit, but it's definitely a feel thing - too many people play them solely as brawlers which is only one aspect of the class.

one of my favorite times with my rogue was during Midsummer Festival last year. Each faction has bonfires at all of their cities - basically whereever there's a flight point. You fly around and do a quest to talk to the person at your bonfire but you can also vandalise the other faction's bonfires. IN small cities, that's pretty safe but doing it in large cities will get you killed since there's typically a lot of the other faction around and, even on PvE servers, you're PvP flagged in the enemy's capital cities.

I went to a spot north of Orgrimmar, jumped into the river and swam to the back entrance... stealthed, then waited for a distraction in the form of an Alliance raid, stole the flame, vanished and made my way out killing some NPCs in my way as I left... Totally a rogue trip and v fun.

[Dhoum]

Shamans i think are just slow period till at least you get dual wield.
Actually an Enhancement Shaman will begin to shine before dual wield. Windfury really did made an astounding difference to my levelling experience. Get a big, slow 2-hander, pop Windfury on it and watch the mobs fall over. I remember getting (light-heartedly) grumbled at in Stranglethorn Vale for the insane amount of burst damage I was putting out for the level. Another shift happens when you get dual-wield because the Enhancement Shaman shifts away from burst damage toward a more sustained dps.

All healing classes can heal early 5mans (up till about level 50) as DPS spec if you have healing/int/spirit gear to wear.
I've had no trouble (as an Enhancement Shaman) healing all non-heroic instances up to and including level 80 instances. It is important to maintain a good quality healing kit but it's quite possible to heal, and heal well, as Enhancement. Clearly a healing -specced character will have more "wiggle-room" and "get out of jail free" cards but that really just means you need to know what you're doing and concentrate on doing it. I do tend to let people know well in advance that I'm off-spec healing and that anyone aside from the tank really needs to pay close attention to not getting aggro. Most players worth their salt are able to control their threat, for the ones that can't I provide a fairly harsh lesson.:grin:

That being said, with Chain Heal someone really does have to have been spectacularly careless (or stupid) to die whilst I'm healing.

And yes healing will be the easiest way to get into late game 5 mans and raids.
My experience is that raiding guilds have very specific classes and specs that they are looking for. Certainly on my server I see a very broad spread of what is wanted at any given time. In terms of PuGs, it seems to me that again there is a fairly broad spectrum of need, though as there tend to be fewer people willing to heal or (more often in my experience) tank those roles seem to be the most sought after.

Their (Hunters) game play doesn't change so much form 10-80. it just kind of get enhanced, with new skills and traps, and stuff.

End-game Hunters are expected (in my experience) to be confident with chain-trapping and misdirects. These skills are not frequently used (at least as a BM Hunter) whilst soloing, so it requires a fundamental shift in game play between solo and group situations. While this can be said to be true of many classes, I find it especially true of Hunters. So no, not a huge change in the fundamentals of the class between levels (once you get a pet and Ice Trap) but a massive shift between soloing and grouping. Hunters are the easiest class bar none to solo, and arguably the hardest to group well.

[semiiramiis]

The real problem I see here is that pretty much every one of your toons is currently experiencing the blighted landscape levels. 15-30 are possibly the worst levels for every single class, and you've got a ton of characters basking in the twilight zone. I realize you're trying to play several different classes to see what you want to play, and I respect that, but you're now the proud owner of a gaggle of acne ridden, awkward, leggy adolescents with no beauty in sight.

[Alaris Mystique]

I realize you're trying to play several different classes to see what you want to play, and I respect that, but you're now the proud owner of a gaggle of acne ridden, awkward, leggy adolescents with no beauty in sight.

That made me laugh, a lot! Thanks!

Actually, I'm sorta between deciding what I want to play, and keeping playing several characters. I'm even thinking about starting another one (Paladin). Basically, I end up spending more time on those I like best, but I still like to switch back & forth and play the other ones.

I'm actually enjoying the gameplay on several / most of them... Warlock, Druid, Hunter, those I would all level up to 80 provided I had enough time in my life to dedicate to WoW. Shaman & Mage are not my favorites, but they are quite fun. Priest I would prefer if I could just skip the early levels entirely, but the endgame Priest appeals to me.

DKs - nothing like rogues.

Thx for info. I already have my share of rogue fun in druid lolcat form. I have to admit, stealth is a fun game mechanic. I'm just not sure that I enjoy it (or melee) enough to dedicate a whole character to it.

Actually an Enhancement Shaman will begin to shine before dual wield. Windfury really did made an astounding difference to my levelling experience.

End-game Hunters are expected (in my experience) to be confident with chain-trapping and misdirects.

Shaman level 30... sounds feasible...

About hunters, chain trapping is putting traps in a row, and the leading a foe to step in each in sequence, right? Or is it stacking them and having all of them go off at once?

What are misdirects? I have the general concept, but I don't know what you mean when you say that hunters do it...

[semiiramiis]

What are misdirects? I have the general concept, but I don't know what you mean when you say that hunters do it...


A misdirect is a pull done by a hunter which transfers the immediate agro of the pull from the hunter onto another target- usually the main tank. It is also used in a fight when the main tank has lost agro....a hunter can 'redirect' the boss's agro back onto the tank.

[clevins]

A misdirect is a pull done by a hunter which transfers the immediate agro of the pull from the hunter onto another target- usually the main tank. It is also used in a fight when the main tank has lost agro....a hunter can 'redirect' the boss's agro back onto the tank.



Other uses are at the start of a fight to give the tank a threat lead and periodically throughout the fight if the DPS needs to go all out and you need to make sure that the main tank always has aggro.

[Alaris Mystique]

Misdirects... Sounds interesting...

[clevins]

It' a nice ability, but one of the things about Wrath that's changed is that most of the secondary abilities like misdirect aren't used or needed as much. In TBC, tank threat generation was iffy - if the DPS outgeared the tank it was easy to pull aggro. In Wrath, it's very hard.

In general a lot of the ancillary abilities that hunters have are used much less than they were last expansion. You should still learn how to kite things etc, but whereas in TBC we'd mark a mob for the hunter to freeze trap, another for the mage to sheep, etc we just pull, let the tank get AoE threat and pew pew. It's pretty boring actually.

[mesonm]

...but whereas in TBC we'd mark a mob for the hunter to freeze trap, another for the mage to sheep, etc we just pull, let the tank get AoE threat and pew pew. It's pretty boring actually.


I completely agree. when I first ran my pally as a tank, I was worried I'd lose aggro, let people die, etc.

The threat generation is so easy that I never worry, and rarely will a mob even leave my side. Even so, DK's and others intentionally work hard to get mobs to focus on them instead of me, just to make it interesting.

[clevins]

Yeah... if anything kills wow it will be this sort of narrowing of the skills you need. People will love it for a while because it does make things easier and faster which means that people can see more content... but ultimately you don't need to be really good. You can be just decent and use the core skills and do fine.

it's a delicate balance - if you HAVE to be really good to get anywhere too few people can see content. If you can mash 3 keys over and over, it's so easy that, after you've seen it a few times, it's boring. I'd like to see more emphasis on things like CC again - more encounters where the tank needs to mark and say "Mage, sheep moon, hunter keep triangle controlled, rogue, sap the circle... DPS kill skull, X, star." And if something got out of hand you needed to use class skills to recover... the rogue might Blind a mob or Vanish, Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot. The priest or lock might fear and know that it's OK.

Instead it's Pull... get aggro... AoE dps... heal the tank from the big incoming dmg. And don't stand in stuff on the floor. Done? Pull the next group.

[mmorpg man]

if they could put in a level 80 version of heroic MGT then that would be great. it seems that blizzard, when designing the dungeons in wrath, put all their effort into making the bosses as interesting as possible, and forgot about the trash in between, sort of put them in at the last moment with no thought.

[Alaris Mystique]

I created a Paladin, and got it to level 10. That was easy, painless levelling. I'd sometimes over-aggro, and I could deal with it fine... between heals and the "oh sh**" button. I'm playing as draenei, so I have an extra heal...

Gameplay is mostly based on choosing between many long-duration buffs, and being there to deal with problems if they occur, but otherwise it's fairly automatic. I can often just cast my one skill on the foe, beat him up, and move to the next person... Can I expect major changes in gameplay from 10-80?

[mesonm]

Can I expect major changes in gameplay from 10-80?

You can expect to be able to aggro three or more (same-level or higher) mobs, later on.

And you get a few extra buttons to play with.

Other than that, pally play doesn't seem very complex to me....especially as compared to a DK, which is on the other end of the complexity range.

[wyren]

yeah pally leveling challenge is figuring out how many mobs you can safely breeze through. prot is slower safer and ret is pewpew fast kill burster.

[Mazhulsage]

On my Paladin, in all forms of playstyle (I was a healer for raids and 5-mans for awhile, I was Prot from about 30-46, then again at 60-62... Ret from 47-54ish. Now again at 63+) it isn't complicated...

There's about 3 buttons on each spec you should press. For Holy it's about 2... Maybe.

[Dhoum]

About hunters, chain trapping is putting traps in a row, and the leading a foe to step in each in sequence, right? Or is it stacking them and having all of them go off at once?

Although I agree entirely with what has been said previously about crowd control becoming virtually redundant these days; I thought I'd answer this, just so you were aware of the skill.

Hunters are, in theory, the best crowd control in the game. The other classes all have species restrictions on their abilities (Mages can only polymorph humanoids and beasts for example) but the Hunter can (barring mob-specific immunities) neutralise pretty much anything. The skill comes with maintaining this control beyond the duration of the initial Ice Trap, so that the mob moves from one trap to the next without getting any time in the interim to do anything constructive. The exact technique for this is explained far better than I could hope to on Hunter specific forums but, although it is helped greatly by talents in the Survival tree, at the end of the day whether or not a Hunter can chain trap a mob (and, if so, for how long) is very much a case of player skill.

[Wintrow]

Dammit, you ppl make me wanna play my pally again !

This while my druid is still at 72 !

Promise to myself: I WILL play my druid tonight.

[Alaris Mystique]

Currently doing the quest to get the Succubus on my warlock!

It's clear to me now that shaman and priest will lag behind in the levelling race, but I've not given up on them. It's also clear that druid and warlock will be my mains on alliance & horde respectively. I like playing 7 chars, but if I want my dk, I also need to focus!

Thanks for all the info!

[TPMdm]

shaman and priest both start kind of slow. Once priest gets shadow form though the facemelting is fantastic. I don't know quite where you are at with the shaman, but they get ghostwolf at 20 which speeds up things nicely.

[Alaris Mystique]

My shaman is 16-17... So close to ghostwolf. I'm not dropping him entirely, just not concentrating on him. I find that Druid & Shaman are fairly similar in that they both are very versatile, with the exception that Druid can "specialize" by shapeshifting... thus the Druid ends up being better at everything than the shaman IMO.... at least up to level 18, I found that to be true.

As for facemelting, that sounds fun, but I'd rather facemelt with a class for which it makes sense to facemelt. When I made a priest, it was for healing, not facemelting. So efficiency aside, I also have a general issue doing dps using what I thought was going to be a healer. It makes more sense on Druid or Shaman... and even more on Warlock or Mage.

But that's me. I want to play something that is fun for me to level, and then fun in the endgame as well.

[prion]

i want to heal with my priest also so he has been disc/holy the whole way. IT absolutely sucked below 20 but started getting better. He's a lot of fun now at 52 and pretty good at soloing. I mostly kill one thing at a time but I can handle accidental adds.

[Wintrow]

But that's me. I want to play something that is fun for me to level, and then fun in the endgame as well.

I think this one is ready to come out of the newbie forums :grin:.

[Mazhulsage]

My Priest is ridiculous when it comes to leveling... Past 40 it just gets faster and faster it seems. From 50-60 it's just a blur pretty much. I went from level 48-58 in about 3 days, with lots of slacking. That means instances, AH, gaining around 75 tailoring skill...

Definately a speed demon beyond 40, and it just gets faster and faster.

[Alaris Mystique]

I think this one is ready to come out of the newbie forums :grin:.

Gee, thanks!

[Dhoum]

that is good idea ...

That comment has no relevance to the discussion at all ... I smell an MSN fishing rat.

[Alaris Mystique]

Update: level 24 and almost 25 on warlock. I'm looking forward to the horsie!

Question... does grinding levels ever get more challenging? I mean, I've been pulling, kill, rince-repeat since level 1. The AI is incredibly predictable, and the situations offer no surprises. I like playing my characters, but I don't find my opponent worthy.

On a related note... can you level and gain gear in PvP? If so, how does it work? I might do that if I get bored of dumb AI. I don't really have time to invest into long dungeons...

[clevins]

Update: level 24 and almost 25 on warlock. I'm looking forward to the horsie!

Question... does grinding levels ever get more challenging? I mean, I've been pulling, kill, rince-repeat since level 1. The AI is incredibly predictable, and the situations offer no surprises. I like playing my characters, but I don't find my opponent worthy.

On a related note... can you level and gain gear in PvP? If so, how does it work? I might do that if I get bored of dumb AI. I don't really have time to invest into long dungeons...

The mechanics are basically the same. Unless you pull mobs that are high level or too many mobs, they're not that hard. This is why I don't grind mobs to level. I quest. The quests, though, can be repetitive too. In fact, my favorite thing about Wrath is that the quests are more diverse and well-done.

When you say you don't have time for instances I hear "I'm soloing it all" which, I think, is a mistake. WoW can be cool solo but you're missing out on a big part of the game. Not just the instances themselves, but grouping with others, working as a group. You can't just nuke, the mobs in an instance will eat you... the tank needs to hold the mob but you DO need to kill it fast.

it will be harder for you at that level but do try some instances.

PvP - you can get gear but not really XP in BGs. They're fun, though, and a good way to break things up. Note that BGs are bracketed in levels from x0-x9 so at 25 you'll be in the middle of the range. People twink level 29 toons so that they're very powerful... a level 25 against a regular 29 will have a tough... against a twinked 29... no chance.

[Alaris Mystique]

This is why I don't grind mobs to level. I quest. The quests, though, can be repetitive too. In fact, my favorite thing about Wrath is that the quests are more diverse and well-done.

it will be harder for you at that level but do try some instances.

PvP - you can get gear but not really XP in BGs.

I also quest, but like you said, all quests seem the same so far. I've had 3 quests that were to accompany someone, otherwise it's go there and kill stuff. Escorting ppl was fun especially with the druid, as I could finally practice healing. But the stuff that needs killing is more or less densely packed single monsters with dumb AI, which makes the levelling so repetitive.

I did go into instances, but on few occasions, I went to the entrance to group up, and the place was deserted. I waited for a bit, and someone would show up, see that there's only me, and leave. Or there would be someone AFK there already. My impression is that ppl are too busy levelling by grind or playing WotLK to bother with instances at my level.

PvP... I'll have to try it for fun then. I've heard about twinks, but I would join for fun, not for winning. I'll probably wait until closer to 29 though.

[clevins]

You can't just go to an instance and expect a group to form - WoW's not that way. You can join the Looking For Group channel (/lfg) or you can find a guild that fits your style.

WoW at heart is more about playing with others than about the gameworld. You're right in that the world is fairly repetitive. While you CAN solo everything in WoW it's just not the best experience.

[mmorpg man]

there are ways to improve the gameplay. for instance if we take your warlock as an example, you can just send the pet in, nuke, drink then move on. but why stop there? experiement with the different spells, killing as fast as possible, using as little mana as possible and see how long you can go without drinking. instead of using pots and bandages to heal, use your drain life spell, etc. try things out and you'll see that there is a complexity (especially with warlocks) that you can get to if you know how to use them properly. any idiot can press 1,2,3,4 until a mob is dead.

on your warlock, pull 4 mobs your level, send the pet in, and then you have to try and keep the pet alive (using your own health), keep yourself alive (by using comsumables and drain life), not get out of mana and do enough damage to kill all the mobs and not pull aggro from your pet. find this easy in affliction? respec to destruction or demonology and do the same. like I said, there are many layers of complexity you can employ in your gameplay.

as for PvP, you don't gain any exp from doing battlegrounds or arenas (unless you do the battleground daily quest). instead you gain honor which can be used to buy PvP rewards, including pots, armour, weapons and mounts. and twinks, yeah you'll just have to get used to them. you'll find that the higher up in level brackets you go, the less twinks there will be. in the 19 and 29 brackets, you'll face almost nothing but twinks, but when you get up into the 40s and 50s, there will be less twinks and more casual players like yourself. one thing which I would advise is in the battlegrounds, don't try doing anything solo, go with other people or you'll just get cut down the moment you leave the graveyard.

[dgrampa]

Since the twink topic has come up here, and since I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else on this forum yet, I'd like to get confirmation on a rumor is floating around. I'd like to first say that this is not the typical doomsday 'twinks are dying ... xp being added to BGs' rumor that comes with every major content patch. I have had quite a few twinks in the past and as such I am as skeptical as anyone else about any rumors that pop up about twink changes. The only reason that I am inclined to believe that these changes *might* be true is because longstanding and well respected members of the twink community are chatting on the official forums as if these changes ARE coming in 3.1 and are preparing for them already.

Anyway, the rumors are:

1) Armor kits will no longer give benefits to low level armor. For example, Nethercleft Leg Armor will no longer be able to be applied to low level items like Petrolspill Leggings. Existing items that already have kits applied will no longer receive the benefits from the kit (or at least have reduced benefits)

2) Old Naxx shoulder enchants will receive the same treatment as leg kits.

3) Arcanums will also receive the same treatment.

4) High level enchants on low level items will have reduced benefits depending on the item's level.

Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, do not turn this into a twink debate. If you are a twink, do not come in here QQing about unfair changes and wasted gold. If you hate twinks, please do not start in with 'twinks are fail' or 'it is about time' or any such nonsense. I am just looking for serious confirmation. Do not post whether or not the changes are coming unless you can back it up with a link to official Blizzard statements. Thank you.

[Alaris Mystique]

You can't just go to an instance and expect a group to form - WoW's not that way. You can join the Looking For Group channel (/lfg) or you can find a guild that fits your style.

WoW at heart is more about playing with others than about the gameworld. You're right in that the world is fairly repetitive. While you CAN solo everything in WoW it's just not the best experience.

Good to know... Looks like I was grouping wrong!

there are ways to improve the gameplay. experiement with the different spells (...)

as for PvP, you don't gain any exp from doing battlegrounds or arenas

About gameplay, I was complaining about the mob side. I personally thing the player side of the game is well done, I am having fun experimenting and trying new things... I recently changed from affliction to demonology, and I must say that the last talent seems pretty cool!

Oh, and I don't drink potions. It's against my way of life. I sell them instead. So I develop a way to play that is self-sustaining. Fun stuff...

I'm not worried about twinks. I don't play them, and if they meet me, then they get the free points for the effort. It's not a big deal.

[Dhoum]

I did go into instances, but on few occasions, I went to the entrance to group up, and the place was deserted. I waited for a bit, and someone would show up, see that there's only me, and leave. Or there would be someone AFK there already. My impression is that ppl are too busy levelling by grind or playing WotLK to bother with instances at my level.

On your toolbar (near your talent button) you should see a button with a small greenish globe thing on it. This button opens the looking for group (LFG) tool, which will help you to find a group. There are fewer people in the lower instances these days (though more than you'll find in the level 60 ones) so you might wait a while but you can carry on questing while you look. Using the LFG tool will also give you access to the LookingForGroup chat channel so you can see who is looking for what. Get reading to study your acronyms though, people very rarely refer to instances by their full name.

[mmorpg man]

About gameplay, I was complaining about the mob side. I personally thing the player side of the game is well done, I am having fun experimenting and trying new things... I recently changed from affliction to demonology, and I must say that the last talent seems pretty cool!

thats just something you'll have to get used it, its like this with most games. companies can't afford to make massive mobs of AI really smart, it just takes too much time and effort for too little gain. of course AI will never react as intelligently as players, you just have to look past that and concentrate on what your doing, not the mob. personally I prefer it that way, because it means you don't have to think what the mobs are doing, and you can concentrate on other things like chatting, testing skills, etc. If I had to concentrate on the AI as much as in PvP, I probably wouldn't get anywhere (people always whisper me when I'm in the middle of a big pull, its most annoying)

[clevins]

About instances.. one thing that's not apparent is that they all have summoning stones. The reason that groups don't form at the instance is that you can invite people who are literally all over the game world and then 2 of you can use the stone (the tall obelisk with a rune on the side) to summon others. To use it yuo select the person you're summoning in the party UI, then right click the tone. That starts a summoning portal... the second person then right clicks that portal and the person is summoned.

[Alaris Mystique]

thats just something you'll have to get used it, its like this with most games. companies can't afford to make massive mobs of AI really smart

Some games manage to pull it off better than others. WoW is a pretty strong game, but it seems that the AI aspect is weak. Mind you, I thought the same thing when I tried LoTRo, so it might be true of most MMOs.

I'm reasonably happy playing a game where the game is player-side-dependent. But I feel that the game doesn't force me to adapt & learn... I have to do that on my own. I usually prefer games that challenge me.

About instances.. one thing that's not apparent is that they all have summoning stones.

Good to know! I'm running out of reasons to not team up, which is good in a game where teaming up is the fun part!

[dgrampa]

...

Anyway, the rumors are:

1) Armor kits will no longer give benefits to low level armor. For example, Nethercleft Leg Armor will no longer be able to be applied to low level items like Petrolspill Leggings. Existing items that already have kits applied will no longer receive the benefits from the kit (or at least have reduced benefits) CONFIRMED: BC leg armor kits no longer give any benefits to low level items. Clefthide/Cobrahide requires level 50 and Nethercleft/Nethercobra requires level 60.

2) Old Naxx shoulder enchants will receive the same treatment as leg kits. CONFIRMED

3) Arcanums will also receive the same treatment. CONFIRMED

4) High level enchants on low level items will have reduced benefits depending on the item's level. CONFIRMED: Some high level enchants no longer give benefits to low level items. Some notable exceptions are +15 AGI to weapon, +26AP to gloves, +6 stats to chest all still work.


Please, for the sake of everyone's sanity, do not turn this into a twink debate. If you are a twink, do not come in here QQing about unfair changes and wasted gold. If you hate twinks, please do not start in with 'twinks are fail' or 'it is about time' or any such nonsense...

[Alaris Mystique]

Well, this wasn't really a twink thread to begin with...

Anyway, just reached level 40 Warlock... and no new pet? I have to go check the wiki, but 40 seems disappointing... I must be missing something.

[Dhoum]

40 used to be the level at which you got your Dreadsteed which, I imagine, counts as a pet.

[Alaris Mystique]

Oh I see... Well, you now get a steed at 30 (which I've enjoyed for a while now) and another at 60. So I guess nothing exciting going on at 40!

[Alaris Mystique]

Level 44, and quitting.

I guess it's not what I was looking for in a game. I logged on the other night, and I just wasn't motivated to do the repetitive killings just to get another 1-2 levels. I feel that moving to a new area isn't enough to keep things fresh.

But I have to admit, the community was great. And by that, I mean you guys. So farewell, and may we meet again.

I'll miss the trade hall, the random encounters...

[elsegundo]

Level 44, and quitting.

I guess it's not what I was looking for in a game. I logged on the other night, and I just wasn't motivated to do the repetitive killings just to get another 1-2 levels. I feel that moving to a new area isn't enough to keep things fresh.

But I have to admit, the community was great. And by that, I mean you guys. So farewell, and may we meet again.

I'll miss the trade hall, the random encounters...
level 44 is annoying. well actually any levels pre-60 is very annoying. honestly, i've played almost every class in the game and i gotta say that the leveling between 60 and 80 are the best. think about it this way... outland and northrend were added later to the original game. overall i think those areas are a lot better designed than the original. outland and nothrend arent clones of the original game.

[clevins]

Also, WoW really isn't a solo game and I got the feeling Alaris played it as such. SO much of the fun is going in instances like ZF and beating things with a group of people. Yes, you can solo WoW. But as I mentioned at the start of this... you're missing out on a ton of the game and it's realy designed around people who mix solo and group play.

[Alaris Mystique]

level 44 is annoying. well actually any levels pre-60 is very annoying. honestly, i've played almost every class in the game and i gotta say that the leveling between 60 and 80 are the best. think about it this way... outland and northrend were added later to the original game. overall i think those areas are a lot better designed than the original. outland and nothrend arent clones of the original game.

I keep hearing that, and I believe it... at least as far as questing goes. Even the Blood Elf and Draenei starting areas were more engaging than other areas. But the monsters, are they improved too? Or is it just the same type of AI slapped into more engaging quests?

My main problem is that I don't find the combat engaging, as in actually putting me into situations where I have to use some amount of strategy and tactics to win the day. So far it's been spamming the same few skills (rotation is the term I think some of you use), checking the level difference, and being careful not to aggro more than you can handle. Contrast that with games where I have to learn interrupts, avoid AoE DoT, target priority, or relative positioning...

I've heard that this specific aspect doesn't change much. So even if the quests are better designed and more engaging, I'd still be annoyed with the AI / combat system.

Also, WoW really isn't a solo game and I got the feeling Alaris played it as such.

Your impression is correct... I did play solo a lot more than instances.

I did go to instances a bit, and it was quite different... more fun, more exciting... I wouldn't say that it was different because of the monsters though. Rather, it was different because of the people playing together, and the generally higher difficulty.

But fundamentally, I'm more of a solo player than a group player. I enjoy online games because (1) the community, (2) the economy, and (3) the option of multiplayer. But I'd still spend 80-90% of my time soloing, which is not what WoW was build to be fun at. Mind you, WoW's got some strong points on #1 and #2.

That, and I like playing different characters and different styles of play. I feel WoW doesn't cater to that very well, because it takes so long to level each character. That, and the cost of dual-spec is prohibitive to newbies (but quite cheap I hear to endgame characters). Hero classes sound like a good compromise, but for the moment only one class is offered. I got excited when I heard the rumor that the next expansion would have a druid-like hero, and it would be really neat to have a healer-class hero that I wouldn't have to level from scratch. That might be incentive to come back and grind those extra levels.

[clevins]

Precisely. You and the game just aren't a fit, plus some of the game design seems contrary to what you like/expect. it's better to quit now, frankly, because there's really nothing to do as a solo player in the endgame that's not grindy. Endgame is all about raiding and/or Arenas.

Thanks, by the way, for not *****ing about how WoW should change, it sucks because it's not what you like, etc. No game is a great fit for everyone and it's nice to see someone give the game a fair shot and then say in a mature manner "yeah, not for me"

one last thing - don't delete your characters when you close the account. Blizzard seems to never delete toons, so if you leave them and decide in a year or so you want to come back, they'll still be there. If you never come back, it's fine too.

[Wintrow]

I find that boss battles and harder trash mobs in instances are what comes closest to actual tactics.

Yesterday I did Old Kingdom and there were 3 seperate Forgotten One-trash mobs outside the last boss (a huge forgotten one himself). Apart from the "same old" aggro mechanism they also had an interesting attack. It's a slow moving Dark Blast that travels in an overhead arc fashion randomly targetted on the position of a non-tank. When it hit the ground it made a "small area, big damage".

This changed my tactics as dps from "nuke, but don't steal aggro" to also keep note of the Blast and "get the xxxx out".

Then the last boss came. Oh boy...

Again, standard "nuke, but don't steal aggro" and then suddenly (well, not THAT suddenly, we had been briefed by another party member) the boss casts Insanity.

My party members suddenly turned hostile and I had to kill them.

What really happened is that everyone was seperated into a seperate "phase" and had to fight npc-versions of the other party members. Once I had killed my counterparts (quite easily :tongue:) I could see counter-parts of other party-members and assist them in killing theirs (usually the healer has the biggest issues here...). I often ended up helping to kill myself :grin:.

Another boss often casted a huge flying fiery orb that you'd need to stay clear of. The closer you were the more often you got hit with fire beams. Then suddenly the orb and the boss vanished and the boss reappeared moments later sucking the life-force out of a party-member. This debilitates the member. The others have to nuke the boss to break the link. I summarized this to "so instead of <nuke the boss> it's <avoid the orb, otherwise.... nuke the boss> :grin:".

Then another one summoned dozens of inactive "followers" around her. Every so often she'd start to levitate and "select" one. He'd then walk (not run) to her position and when he arrives she gains an AoE attack. The trick was then to kill the follower A-bloody-SAP.

Overall quite enjoyable.

[Alaris Mystique]

Thanks, by the way, for not *****ing about how WoW should change, it sucks because it's not what you like, etc. No game is a great fit for everyone and it's nice to see someone give the game a fair shot and then say in a mature manner "yeah, not for me"

one last thing - don't delete your characters when you close the account.

Yay for me being mature! Yay!

But clearly, from talking to people in the forum and based on the customer base, this game works for a lot of people. It'd be naive to think my version of WoW would be better for everyone... I try to restrict my suggestions to what I think would be best for the playerbase.

And yes, I won't delete any character. There's no point in doing that!

I find that boss battles and harder trash mobs in instances are what comes closest to actual tactics. (...)

Boss battles sound fun. That's one thing Blizzard tends to do well. Actually, I've really enjoyed all Blizzard games I played until WoW, so that was a surprise (not my type I guess). It would have been fun if some of that would be found in persistent areas...?

I'll be on the lookout for Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and that yet unnamed MMO.

[prion]

At 44 and having tried several classes, I'd say you gave the game a fair chance. Sure, it gets better, but it all builds on the same theme. I would even say that trying to attack a camp of gnolls at level 20 is far more difficult than anything Outland offers.

[Janfader]

At 44 and having tried several classes, I'd say you gave the game a fair chance. Sure, it gets better, but it all builds on the same theme. I would even say that trying to attack a camp of gnolls at level 20 is far more difficult than anything Outland offers.

I agree as well. I knew this wasn't going to work out for him (as per all my post regarding the subjects).

Even myself being back for a few months I'm starting to feel the same ol'thing.

[clevins]

I think if you don't raid the world is too static. Yes, you have the argent tournament for 80s... but what else is there? BGs... Arena... and... nothing really. I really would like to see them provide several 'endgames' at 40, 60, and 70 perhaps... Not raids for gear since the quest gear just past each of those levels is better than raiding gear for the most part... but things that are interesting, perhaps compelling (do them and you get an XP boost for the next 2 levels... ). As it is, raiding is the really the only thing to do that gets new content regularly.

[Alaris Mystique]

I agree as well. I knew this wasn't going to work out for him (as per all my post regarding the subjects).

Even myself being back for a few months I'm starting to feel the same ol'thing.

It's not just me eh? Well, as any good game, it will work for some, not for others. Apparently, some people do enjoy the predictable AI... which to be honest I did not fully expect.

I think if you don't raid the world is too static. Yes, you have the argent tournament for 80s... but what else is there?

Static is never a problem the first time through! What got to me is that there wasn't enough variety and gameplay challenge in the fights. I don't believe much can be done about it without making a new game, the game mechanics were simply designed around group play.

[clevins]

Agreed. My comment was more about the fact that, even if one does level to 80 solo, there's simply not much for the solo player to DO at 80. PvP certainly, but in the PvE world you can quest more, do achievements... but everything at 80 is either grindy (rep and achievements), quest oriented or instance (and hence group) oriented.

I'm guessing that you won't ever really like an MMO due to your playstyle (I don't view GW as a real MMO). Not only will some of the activities involve group play due to their nature but I think even the solo play will be different than what you're expecting since it's not going to be a primary focus of an MMO. A developer can spend time making the AI of solo mobs better... but given the multiplayer nature of the genre and its focus on working with others, that's not going to be where most MMO developers put most of their efforts, esp since it needs to be balanced to not be overly difficult or impossible (the example given above of a mob being more intelligent, but easily overwhelming a solo player as a result springs to mind).

[Alaris Mystique]

Agreed. My comment was more about the fact that, even if one does level to 80 solo, there's simply not much for the solo player to DO at 80.

I'm guessing that you won't ever really like an MMO due to your playstyle (I don't view GW as a real MMO).

I consider that in a good game, the journey should be worth it in itself. I've enjoyed levelling up characters in many other RPG games, and the levelling up was fun. I'd often start new characters and never get them to max level. Mind you, those were not MMOs.

I've really enjoyed Diablo 1-2, Dungeon Siege 1-2, Guild Wars. I came to WoW expecting a solid experience that can be done alone or share, and that's not really what WoW is about. However, I'm hoping that future MMOs will learn from their mistakes, and design the game to be great for both solo players and group players.

Sooner or later, someone will stumble on the right receipy. I hope.

PS: I find the GW comment odd. It's not a true MMO, that's true, and even the devs will say that. I keep hearing that WoW gameplay really shines in the instances. So why do we discriminate against GW, a game that is entirely instance-based? That should be a good thing, right?

[clevins]

it's not the instance per se - it's working with other real players. A lot of my time in WoW is spent chatting in guild and with friends in a separate chat channel while I play. It's not that I disagree with you about the gameplay (though it bothers you a lot more than I) it's that I play with friends much of the time.

You assume that making the game compelling for a solo player should be a primary goal of an MMO, something I don't think that's going to happen at least until authoring tools are a lot easier. It's one thing to say that a game should be soloable to max level and entirely another to say that the game should be compelling all the way without ever (or rarely) involving others. The latter is much harder and requires you to do things that might only be useful to solo players... so the developer needs to evaluate how much of their playerbase that is/might be and whether the effort is worth it.

At the end of the day an MMO is a multiplayer game. It will never have solo features front and center, nor should it. The primary focus of the developers should be on multiplayer activities (some of which you can play solo, e.g. BGs). More bluntly... i simply don't see why someone who wants a compelling solo game and doesn't like playing with others would want to play an MMO in the same manner that I don't understand why someone who primarily likes group play would play a solo game.

[Alaris Mystique]

You assume that making the game compelling for a solo player should be a primary goal of an MMO

At the end of the day an MMO is a multiplayer game. It will never have solo features front and center, nor should it.

More bluntly... i simply don't see why someone who wants a compelling solo game and doesn't like playing with others would want to play an MMO in the same manner that I don't understand why someone who primarily likes group play would play a solo game.

I didn't say primary goal... in fact, it should be a secondary goal. If the game offers solo content, it should be fun. If the solo content is boring, don't put it in in the first place. We can disagree on whether WoW solo content is fun or not (it's a matter of opinion), but I think we should agree that all game content should be designed with fun in mind.

I've played MMO-like RPG games that also offer solid solo experiences. That means that the game adapts well to the number of players, from 1 to however many. Persistence and shared playing area are the only reason I see why it would be difficult to make engaging solo content.

MMOs offer a lot more than just the ability to play with others. (1) Ways to chat with like-minded people. (2) An economy / trade system. (3) The ability to group up when you want to. (4) Usually pretty cool settings, and (5) ways to customize your character. Persistent areas also add to the mix the random encounters, which I enjoyed as well.

[Wintrow]

I think this is one of the bonuses City of Heroes has. The instances scale according to the level and number of players in the groups. It has other shortcomings, but that aspect is one I happen to like about it...

[shundaroni]

I like your analysis, Alaris, and I fundamentally agree with it. I think your experience fell victim to the effects of unfortunate timing--something with which I'm quite familiar.

The gripe in re the mob AI is legitimate. The first time I played WoW--back when the game was fairly new--the AI was still remarkably bland. The difference between then and now, however, was that on my PvP server the mobs were a welcomed mindless deviation from fighting Horde. PvP was fun, and always active. The game was new enough that run-ins with high level gankers were rare, and you often got matched up with players of similar skill doing quests in the same contested region.

It didn't take long to surpass that initial novelty, though. The early players quickly reached 60, and ganking became commonplace. Then, with the release of BC, everyone scurried to Outland, leaving those of us who hadn't been able to play as much (or who had left temporarily) with no option but to solo in a largely barren environment. The dull AI and repetitive quests quickly grew tiresome.

So the real question is: why am I intent on coming back to the game?

Put simply: I want to see the endgame. I remember what it was like being on the same playing field as all of the other lowbies when I first started. It was a great experience, and I want to be there again. In the interim, I'll just have to "suck it up," and hope that the new XP buffs (since the last time I played) are substantial.

I think at this point, Blizzard needs to seriously consider making the trip from 1-70 as quick as possible. The game is no longer all that intriguing for new players who aren't content with promises of "great things to come at endgame."

[elsegundo]

the solo content will remain the same throughout. however, there are stories woven in that makes it worthwhile. however, its not one of those musts in the game that everyone should experience. the things that you describe as something you actually enjoy in a game is found more in group play than in solo play. im sorry to hear that this game is not for you, but not all games are for everyone. glad you gave this a shot and had a decent time with it. good luck with finding something you do enjoy!

[clevins]

When you say "MMO-like" there's a difference between things LIKE an MMO and an MMO. Games that explicitly code things like instances that scale up and down are catering to a different set of design goals (and thus different players) than one that doesn't do that. For all that I like about WoW and how Blizzard got so many things right, it's not perfect nor is it the only way to design an MMO. I'd very much like to see other takes on a real MMO experience... but let's not fool ourselves that games where ou might run into a few players here and there are really MMOs. An MMO has to involve actually playing with others I think - otherwise it's just a game that other people are playing at the same time.

At heart, an MMO has to involve some interaction with others. There's no reason to design a game that is explicitly multiplayer around solo content. The AH and other 'at a remove' interactions don't really get at the core of an MMO - interacting with others to accomplish the main goals of the game.

In addition, WoW does not have solo content - it has soloable content. The difference is that you can quest with others... but don't have to in order to progress. I think the point is crucial - the most design effort is put into things that groups of people do - the instances. That's why I do agree with you that the world content gets repetitive - it's not the main focus of WoW although there is a ton of it.

The basic problem for WoW in 2009 is that 80 levels are too many. For the levels to mean anything they have to be substantial, but the variety of quests isn't much. You don't even get new mobs as you level really. Face it, even if the mob AI was more sophisticated it's just flatout a ton of XP to get to 80. You do maybe 1500-2000 quests and kill thousands of mobs. That's going to get repetitive no matter how good the AI of the mobs. And as I've said above, make the AI too good and it gets too hard and people will just bail.

Add to all of that the point shundaroni makes about the lack of new/lower level players... and it's a game that just doesn't do that well at the lower levels at this point in its life. In fact, I think we're seeing the limitations of a level based design. can you imagine this in 2 more expansions? Even if it's only 5 levels per expansion, that's still NINETY levels. I can't imagine soloing 90 levels of content. I can't imagine doing 90 levels at all. What that means is that despite amusing commercials, Blizzard has created a game that's too intimidating for new players to take up with too little to reward players who don't end up at max level.

"The game starts at 80" is really an indication of a game that has self-limited its appeal to its current subscriber base. I think we'd see very different expansions if WoW was one of several games that each had 1-3m subscribers... but they can easily rake in money catering to the current base's interests and really not paying much attention to the needs of brand new players.

[Wintrow]

The basic problem for WoW in 2009 is that 80 levels are too many. ...

...can you imagine this in 2 more expansions? Even if it's only 5 levels per expansion, that's still NINETY levels. I can't imagine soloing 90 levels of content. I can't imagine doing 90 levels at all...

Very true... Even with the leveling sped up the way it is now I can't bear dragging my L43 Mage 18 more levels. The old content (pre-TBC) is just THAT boring to me.

If I could bump him up to L58 (safely and within Blizzards ToS) equipped with crappy greens for a fee I would. As it is now... I may get around to it sometime.

[Alaris Mystique]

At heart, an MMO has to involve some interaction with others.

"The game starts at 80" is really an indication of a game that has self-limited its appeal to its current subscriber base.

Indeed.

For a game that boost it's playerbase, I haven't had that many random encounters.

[shundaroni]

I can't imagine soloing 90 levels of content. I can't imagine doing 90 levels at all. What that means is that despite amusing commercials, Blizzard has created a game that's too intimidating for new players to take up with too little to reward players who don't end up at max level.

I agree wholeheartedly, and I don't see Blizzard making any real honest effort to remedy this.

The "90 Days, 300% XP til Lvl 60" Refer a Friend program is weighted down with terms and conditions that detract from its appeal. The real issue is that new players and other lowbies want the opportunity to catch up before ANOTHER patch comes out and tacks on 10 more levels. Most of us don't really want to have to jump through hoops just to avoid being stuck by ourselves in obsolete territories of the game.

I have no problem with starting at Lvl 1, nor do I have a problem with having to solo for a while. But it's the shear AMOUNT of soloing necessary that is troubling. Blizzard just needs to implement a condition-free fast track that will grant a new level for every few quests completed up to level 65 or so. Make it an optional part of an account that has to be activated from the Account Manager. Since the old quests/material are being ignored anyhow, what's the problem with allowing new players to skip over some of them?

I'm going to give WoW another go in a few weeks. I'm just hoping that the soloing won't bog me down to the point of quitting again.

[Alaris Mystique]

The "90 Days, 300% XP til Lvl 60" Refer a Friend program is weighted down with terms and conditions that detract from its appeal.(...)

I have no problem with starting at Lvl 1, nor do I have a problem with having to solo for a while. But it's the shear AMOUNT of soloing necessary that is troubling.

I used the 90 days thing, but my friend was already so much ahead of me (and played only one char, so he levelled faster too) that it wasn't fun playing together. Either he killed things for me and I followed, or he'd have to make a new character and level exclusively with me.

Besides, it's not 80 levels of grind... it's 80 levels of grind per class that interests you. You can get one piece of 10% xp boost at endgame, but that's not enough. I'd rather see a catch-up option where you get massively more XP until you're near where the population is at (like 60 in TBC or 70 in WotLK). You'd get even more if you already have high-level chars. Of course, you could choose not to use that option if you wanted to play low-level.

Some games for example have XP scrolls that for a duration triple your XP from kills. You have to buy those with in-game gold, and I'd be happy to spend my gold on that.