The "Best" Class in WoW" Redux

[Immortus]

First of all, I don't even know what "Redux" means... I thought it sounded good as a rebuttal title though! ok now for the serious part;

I agree with most of what was said in that sticky but I feel that one very important factor was left out, and that is the ability to get on teams. I am well aware of the most common argument to this so I'll cover it now.

q. But if you're good at your class and make enough friends you'll get on teams more regardless of class

a. yes and no. If you happen to be available most nights during peak play hours your chances increase. If you happen to be in a good active guild, again mostly during peak hours, your chances increase more. As soon as you leave peak hours and your guildies are all gone to sleep/work/school your chances plummmet drastically unless you're a tank or a healer. I see this every afternoon and every late night. Tanks and healers become scarce as hell in off hours and most teams end up being 3 DPS's all in holding pattern spamming city chat channels for tanks and healers.

It's fine to tell others to play what you enjoy but the big problem with that is while some of you may feel this way (which is great for good players), the unfortunate truth is that the common masses do not and run with a mob mentality that says things like "DPS are a dime a dozen" You've ALL heard that one several times. I actually recently spoke to the leader of a large Off-Hours raiding guild and he told me he'd take a level 10 main spec healer into the guild and wait for him to level over a level 70+ DPS class. Supply and demand really does matter.

Another problem is that the mob also, yes even after this many years, runs with a much narrower idea of class roles than communities like this. If you're a shadowpriest trying to get a DPS slot and roll for DPS gear you'll get invited with the expectation that you're a healer. Comment fields in your LFG window help but not much because most don't even read them. Fury DPS warriors will get asked repeatedly to tank, etc etc. 3.1 gave us Dual Builds but that is no help to those who will be expected to roll on gear depending on what role they're filling in that instance. The general loot rule that I've seen emerging the most since dual builds came out is that loot rolling priorities are awarded based on the role you fill, and then the off-specs basically get the leftovers. In other words, if you came as a Prot Pally, you get to roll on Prot gear first, then get to roll on DPS gear for your dual spec only after all the other DPS classes who wear plate are done. You may not like it but that's the rule that seems to be coming out the most now.

Just another point of view. Whether you agree or disagree, I hope this will at least add some more food for thought to his excellent thread. This isn't meant as a counter to that thread, but more as maybe an addendum from another's perspective. I have a long record off and on in this game but for all those years only a small part of it has involved being a prime time raider because I wasn't willing to commit my largest amount free time after work to gaming and I know from my point of view (unless you're satisfied with soloing crafted gear and BG rewards), the class you choose actually does play a significant role in determining how often you'll get spots on teams.

[semiiramiis]

Redux is pronounced redo. Which is what it is...a redo.

As for the rest of it...yes, if you're good at what you do, you'll find groups. That simple. You may experience some pain (I have a shadow priest, and no, I don't heal on her, and I also have a dk...major grouping pain there) but overall, you'll get a reputation for competency and you'll get groups.

[Immortus]

I should also note that I speak from experience on a server that's a ghost town during anything other than prime time so that will weigh heavily on much of what I mentioned. I also want to offer a solution that might help a few ppl anyway - if you have a high enough character and can't get into playing a healer (for example) and/or refuse to fork over the $ to xfer to a high pop server, you could always start fresh with a DK on another server. Yes, I know they're getting a bad rep (the 'huntards' of 2009?) due to a lot of people rolling them, which increases the odds of getting a bad player. But you will be able to forge your own reputation on the new server as a good tank, and you'll have good starting gear, a mount, and 55 levels done.

[semiiramiis]

Be that as it may...I still will not suggest a dk as a grouping toon. My own GUILD will not raid my dk, and he's in t7 gear! I've been told flat out that a group would rather use my then 75 enhancement shaman as dps in a group rather than said dk in Naxx gear. There's a blight clinging to the class that is just unbelievable. Warcraft realms is currently down, but the last quote I heard was that 20% of all played toons are currently dks. (that's one in every five toons in the game) If you want a group, this is not the way to go. It's sad, because I really, truly, love my dk, but the toon who's going to be raiding is that now resto shaman.

[Twoflower]

No matter how little tanks and healers you have on a realm, your chances for finding a group will increase if you

- dont make a ass of yourself in instances
- are nice to the group members
- Know your class
- Know the instance and know what to do and when to do it

I have turned down quite few tanks allready just because i know them or their reputation on my server. I prefer not to do a instance over a 4 hours wipe fest.

[Wintrow]

I have to say I'm in agreement w Immortus here. If you are not that good of a player you can better be a mediocre healer than a mediocre dps. Ppl WILL take you along (expect if they're called twoflower or semiiramiis :tongue:) simply out of necessity.

That said, it's a lot harder to be a GOOD tank than it is to be a GOOD healer (WotLK's tank threat buff helped a lot though).

[semiiramiis]

I have to say I'm in agreement w Immortus here. If you are not that good of a player you can better be a mediocre healer than a mediocre dps. Ppl WILL take you along (expect if they're called twoflower or semiiramiis :tongue:) simply out of necessity.

That said, it's a lot harder to be a GOOD tank than it is to be a GOOD healer (WotLK's tank threat buff helped a lot though).

Huh? I'm a little lost with this one, I merely said that a good player can be anything and still get invites. I know some lovely hunters I'll take any day of week, because they play amazingly well. And I've flat out said that it's easier to be a healer than a tank, at least to me, for several reasons. I said that dks are having real issues getting groups for anything, and that if you play one, you really need to already HAVE a reputation as a good player before you rolled one. Starting as a new one without an extensive friends list to take you places is going to be painful.

PS- If you get an invite from a toon called Semiiramiis it's not me. I have no toons actually named Semiramis, or any butchered spelling of it.

[Wintrow]

Please accept my humble apologies

/grovel
:grin:

[Immortus]

thanks guys, but after my little soapbox speech there I think I'm going to go ahead and DK my way into a new server anyway. The healer thing just doesn't fit me and I guess the old mantra of 'play what you like" still does hold some weight despite my post. I can't do healers, just can't. I need to be hitting mobs in games to find them fun, even if it's as a tank.
Regarding the teaming difficulties of DK's, I think I have a good strategy in hand. I took a good study of WoW Census and found a high population server that has a heavy one-sided lean towards 1 faction which means not only is the player base there high, but it also has the numbers concentrated on the same side. I think it's paying off because even though most of the group action has shifted from Outlands to Northrend, I'm already getting a decent number of tells asking me to join instances without even being flagged as LFG. This makes me very happy because my account's ability to roll a DK has given me the option of basically a free server xfer to a brand new server with 55 levels and a full set of gear head start. I'm with you on loving this class semiiramiis, it's more fun than any of my others and I'm going to run with it despite the stigmas.

[Wintrow]

Well, nobody is stopping you from levelling a shammy as enhancement, a druid as feral or a paladin as ret/prot and then respeccing to healing at L80 (or even dual-speccing for that matter).

I levelled my Druid L10 -> L22 as Balance, L23 -> L70 as Feral, currently levelling L71 -> L80 as Balance again and I'll probably dual spec boomkin/tree at L80... Throughout the 74 levels I have already done I've been the healer numerous times.

Of course, if you're having fun with your DK that's all that matters.

[Immortus]

Well, nobody is stopping you from levelling a shammy as enhancement, a druid as feral or a paladin as ret/prot and then respeccing to healing at L80 (or even dual-speccing for that matter).

I levelled my Druid L10 -> L22 as Balance, L23 -> L70 as Feral, currently levelling L71 -> L80 as Balance again and I'll probably dual spec boomkin/tree at L80... Throughout the 74 levels I have already done I've been the healer numerous times.

Of course, if you're having fun with your DK that's all that matters.
Yeah, I really enjoy this class a lot. I've always jumped on board new classes in most MMO's I've played simply because they almost always feature a lot of design improvements and refinements learned from the past and have never been disappointed. Also I've been following a lot of DK pre-raid gear guides and I was very surprised at how much epic gear you can get your hands on just from blacksmiths and rep rewards alone. And it's actually pretty decent gear not welfare gear with terrible art like the BC crafted epics were.

Just out of mild curiousity, why would semiiramiis' guild want an enhancement shammy over a dk for DPS? They both bring just as many valuable goodies to a raid, and they already know and trust the player. Just a matter of all the other DPS DK spots being already filled I guess?

[semiiramiis]

Just out of mild curiousity, why would semiiramiis' guild want an enhancement shammy over a dk for DPS? They both bring just as many valuable goodies to a raid, and they already know and trust the player. Just a matter of all the other DPS DK spots being already filled I guess?

I didn't make this entirely clear, I guess. I was told by three separate pugs that they'd rather take my dismal enhancement shaman (the character I was on when they tried to invite me) rather than my epicced out dk.

My guild will not run my dk. End of story. Even though my dk is as good/better than many in the guild, they will not run him. They will run my shaman, especially when she's resto. I believe that they would even consider taking my shaman as a dps spec, but they know I only instance/raid with her as resto.
Why? For the pugs I think it's a mix of omg, not another dk plus warriors/paladins trying to protect their loots. For my guild, I often believe it's a case of healer hijacking. When I offered, way back, to bring my son's epicced lock when we were short of dps, I was told I had not leveled him and I didn't know how to play dps. (!?! Certainly I had not leveled him, but um... I've leveled ranged dps) Then came dk. I leveled him, I played him, and then got hit with the no...It's a dk, we don't want it. I guess I made the mistake of having only played (to the guild, at least) one toon for three years. They apparently believe that is the only class I am capable of adequately playing.

Curious? Want to compare the two?
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Runetotem&n=Erasmis
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Runetotem&n=Damaris

[Immortus]

I'm sorry to hear that man, no offense to you personally but the guild officers who are doing that need therapy. If that's the kind of attitude they cop, then it seems to me that those members are pretty amateur raiders or just immature. You should shop for a more professional and intelligent guild because it seems to me you're in a bigger league than the raid leaders in your current one.

[Icefrost]

Looked at the title and didn't think I'd actually find something interesting here. Nice to see quality discussion still going on these boards.

On topic though, I see several people suggesting that a good rep on one's realm will give you a shunt in the right direction when trying to find groups. And while I do not about this at all, it does make me wonder how all of you got to such a position in the first place.
What I mean is, I don't think I'm a bad or stupid player at all. Yet, I don't seem to make much of an impression to anyone as I go. The best I've gotten there is some additions to my friend list for cracking decent jokes with someone in the group, rather than good playing.
Hell, I've been told quite a few times that I did a good job via a whisper after an instance run, but it's not like I've really ever seen those guys again, anyway.

So I've been stuck with playing with strangers pretty much every 5-man. And rather than superceding someone with reputation, I end up being the druid who'll only get invited if I'm spec'd to replace the shortage-of-the-day -class.

[Trakamoocow]

Hmm, semiiramiis... I'd ditch the guild tbh. Probably hard to do, but eesh. Sound like a bunch of ****s tbh. I at least see what people can do before passing judgement.

I like Dks. There are too many atm I think, but still a very fun, useful class. In other news, I matched overall damage with a full 7.5 dk wielding betrayer of humanity, in 2pc, still some blues and armageddon :D. I assume he sucked tho.