Turning off exp gains and BG's

[snowieken]

I have always hated twinks dominating the lower level BG's, but I had a bit of a double feeling with them. The thing is, I could imagine the joy of making one. Making the perfect twink is a nice challenge and something to do after reaching the level cap. But I couldn't bear being associated with the twinks who reaped enjoyment from slaughtering non-twinks in lower level BG's. I also loved doing BG's in the early days, so I was not happy that they had "degraded" somewhat to twink matches where the side not with the most teamwork or skill would win, but the side who had the most twinks. That's why I put off making one myself, I didn't want to associate myself with that.

I was very happy with the changes Blizzard made in patch 3.2. Basically for me it was the ideal situation: twinks versus twinks.

Yesterday I reached level 19 and turned off my exp gain, in order to run a few instances to get geared up. The BG queue is completely empty, no current matches. Asked about it in the channels, and it turns out no one - at least in our Battlegroup - is doing the non-exp BG's, and most twinks either quit and leveled up, or just level by doing Battlegrounds when they're in the higher end of the bracket and keep on slaughtering non-twinks that way, for as long as it lasts. They quickly level up the higher end of their new bracket and start over.

Is this true in other battlegroups as well? Are here other people who turned off exp in order to keep PvPing in their bracket?

[Tort]

Yeap, 3.2 pretty much destroyed twinking. There just aren't enough twinks to keep the non-exp matches going. No sane person is going to log on their twink and wait 45 minutes to several hours just to play one 20 minute WSG game.

The more serious twinks have transferred servers and consolidated on one battlegroup (I think Ruin) in order to keep some semblance of twinking alive, but for the majority of us casual twinks, its game over. I know on my battlegroup twinking is long long gone.

I still have raiding on my main, so its really no big deal to me. When I do have free time, instead of playing on my twink I just log off and try to do something productive in real life (which probably isn't a good sign for Blizzard).

I'm pretty sure Blizzard had this in mine from the start though; surely they knew there weren't enough twinks to sustain twink-only battlegrounds. I know on a good night it was rare for there to be more than 2-3 actual twinks in each battleground I was in. Oh well, its Blizzard's game and they can do what they want with it.

[snowieken]

To be honest, part of me likes the fact that twinking is gone. I always hated twinks in normal battlegrounds, waving their e-peens around killing off non-twinks of the same level but with 20+ less stats. Not all of them were like that, but the majority I encounter is, and honestly, if you have a target in PvP you can easily kill, you don't let the opportunity pass. It's just that BG's were basically ruined unless you made a twink yourself, or unless you somehow liked to be massacred in three hits by characters of your own level, in some weird masochistic way. I was pretty disgruntled by that since I've always loved low level BG's in the old days, before twinks were so widely spread. So I hated twinks, unless they would get their own playground.

Which was basically done with patch 3.2. Now that it is here, I wanted to make a twink only to fight other twinks. So it saddens me somewhat that there aren't any people left for the lower level brackets.

But not enough twinks before that? Hmm... in every 10-19 WSG match I was in before the patch, there were at least 3 or 4 of them on every side. I really can't help thinking that no one bothers to turn off exp and just continues to massacre non-twinks until they level up. Then they can get to the next bracket, twink up again, and rinse and repeat. That strikes me as a bit funny: twinks always said they don't do it to have an advantage over non-twinks, but they continue to fight in the normal BG's and refuse to use the non-exp ones (where they only find other twinks). I can't help but think they are showing their true colors somewhat. But hey.

It is a shame really. I refuse to make a twink to go in normal BG's, that's exactly what I have always hated about them. I wanted to turn off exp gain and make a twink just to test my skills against other twinks, but I think I just wasted 20 gold instead.

[Mazhulsage]

I am 100% happy twinks are gone.

1. No more 1-hits on my decently geared chars (Even if it's just a couple dungeon items) even if they're at the top end of the bracket, I still would get 1-shotted...
2. No more "Let's all mass in the mid and wait for the twinks to own us, but we'll try to get 1 hit in before we die!"
3. No more extreme honor farming in a place where I'm just trying to get a friggin mark.

4. No more "Hi, I'm level 19 and have more health than your level 45." that hits you in a soft spot when you're walking up to a battleground queue (Well, that was pre-3.1 when they added the "Anywhere BG".)

And one of the most important...

5. No more before every patch is on the PTR "In the next patch they're getting rid of twinks." in trade causing trade to become a flamefest.

[Bancduese]

Personally, I think Blizzard's solution was perfect. I may even eventually try another battleground again because of it.

Overall, I think it probably will eventually lead to the death of twinking as a concept. There may be enough interest to get enough folks to continue making their twinks. I have my doubts though. The only reason to make a twink and seriously play one was to dominant the field. With that ability pretty much gone, why bother? I am sure that some of the hard-core twinks simply like facing other hard-core twinks and seeing which is the best player but are there enough to keep the concept alive when there is no more "superman vs the keystone cops" moments?

[Aerath]

To be honest, part of me likes the fact that twinking is gone. I always hated twinks in normal battlegrounds, waving their e-peens around killing off non-twinks of the same level but with 20+ less stats. Not all of them were like that, but the majority I encounter is, and honestly, if you have a target in PvP you can easily kill, you don't let the opportunity pass. It's just that BG's were basically ruined unless you made a twink yourself, or unless you somehow liked to be massacred in three hits by characters of your own level, in some weird masochistic way. I was pretty disgruntled by that since I've always loved low level BG's in the old days, before twinks were so widely spread. So I hated twinks, unless they would get their own playground.

Which was basically done with patch 3.2. Now that it is here, I wanted to make a twink only to fight other twinks. So it saddens me somewhat that there aren't any people left for the lower level brackets.

But not enough twinks before that? Hmm... in every 10-19 WSG match I was in before the patch, there were at least 3 or 4 of them on every side. I really can't help thinking that no one bothers to turn off exp and just continues to massacre non-twinks until they level up. Then they can get to the next bracket, twink up again, and rinse and repeat. That strikes me as a bit funny: twinks always said they don't do it to have an advantage over non-twinks, but they continue to fight in the normal BG's and refuse to use the non-exp ones (where they only find other twinks). I can't help but think they are showing their true colors somewhat. But hey.

It is a shame really. I refuse to make a twink to go in normal BG's, that's exactly what I have always hated about them. I wanted to turn off exp gain and make a twink just to test my skills against other twinks, but I think I just wasted 20 gold instead.

Before the patch, there already weren't enough twinks on either side to fill a BG. Rampage 49 bracket was extremely busy, but even there you didn't get a full twink on twink game, at best 5-7 or so in one game. You won't get any games going like that. Before it might've been 4-4, but now the games have to be fully queued as well.

As Tort stated above, the most serious twinks gathered on one battlegroup (Blackout iirc) just to get some games in. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be waiting for 2 hours either just to maybe get one game in, that isn't even guaranteed either. And personally, I don't care enough to give Blizzard 15 bucks just to fix a problem they created themselves. Anyone could've seen this coming a mile away and there would've been a fairly simple solution.

To top it off, the recent 60-69 and 70-79 brackets in AV completely destroyed the "classic" twinks. I find it odd that people who only have Vanilla/TBC installed are forced to play against those with an extra expansion all of a sudden.

Now, I do know that if I will play those twinks, I can't be bothered to turn XP off and I will obliterate those whiny punks in regular BGs. Was planning to level my Warrior anyway (mostly made a short stop because I like to PvP on alts and the idea of a Gnome with a Nightblade tickled me and was the reason to even create one), so I might as well do it in XP bgs.

//edit: Before the twink haters arrive - even my non-twinks, regular leveling chars have done numerous BGs and I always kit out my characters. I just might not do the extensive instance farming for it, but they will have BoEs and enchants.

[snowieken]

No worries, I'll just suck it up then and do normal BG's. And yeah, in a manner of speaking I was already twinking, meaning I geared up in blues. But I just used BoP's from instances and maybe some lower end enchants. I'll use the no exp thing I have on me now to gather some equipment and then off to the exp BG's if I can't find any non-exp BG.

[semiiramiis]

I find it a great vindication. I've been saying for years that there aren't enough real twinks (Those who actually want the challenge of fighting another twink) to make this work. And the official forums are full of level 19, 29 toons disagreeing with me on that statement. They swore up and down that they were not such a minority, that there were more of them than we gave credit for, that they were a viable portion of the wow community and deserved some love from Blizzard.

They got it. The rest is...well...

I feel very sorry for real twinks. I think a lot of them believed their fellows when they said that they wanted the "challenge" of twinking, and weren't in it to massacre brand new players in whites and greens.

[snowieken]

That's exactly the feeling I am having: that the majority of the twinks - and no offense to the "real" twinks out there, the kind I wanted to make - is really showing their true colours.

[Aerath]

That's exactly the feeling I am having: that the majority of the twinks - and no offense to the "real" twinks out there, the kind I wanted to make - is really showing their true colours.

The majority of real twinks quit already over the atrocious WSG changes (epic mounts / shorter game time). Add a 15 euro bill just to get some games in? Hell, I'd seriously be considering Aion too, if running low level BGs was the only thing keeping me in the game.

[Tort]

I think some of you are also being a bit naive as well. You say that the "real twinks" were only a minority, but what exactly is a real twink? I gladly twinked my toon out: I got the best enchants, the best gear and I learned how to play my class.

When I was in battlegrounds, I certainly attempted to fight other twinks whenever possible (I remember some epic battles where I would win a 1v1 fight with another twink with like 3 health left), but you better believe that if a level 20 noobie with 300 health is trying to cap a flag, I will gladly one shot him and return the flag, because thats the freakin point of the game! Likewise, if a level 20 toon is attacking a teammate, I will retaliate.

I think, by "real twink" you mean someone whose intent is to go into a battleground and win the match, rather than grief and harass other players, but unless you are a mind-reader, you have no clue what someone's intent is. Simply attacking a lower level player or less geared player is not even remotely enough evidence to prove intent, even if there are multiple instances of it (pvp in a battleground, who would have thought??).

Finally, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that some of you would try to point out the lack of twink battlegrounds today as proof that most twinks just wanted to one shot lowbies. What part of "there are not enough twinks in this game- real or otherwise- to maintain twink-only battlegrounds" do you not understand?

Am I going to quit the game over this? Hell no. I can still destroy level 80s in blue gear with my epiced out main toons in the level 80 battlegrounds if I really want to (funny how nobody seems to mind this though), plus I have more than enough raiding to keep me busy. But its something I will keep in the back of my mind once I find something else to spend money and my free time on.

[snowieken]

Bancduese's post couldn't be closer to my own opinion in any way. My sentiments exactly.

I apologize beforehand for cutting your post in pieces, Tort, but it's the best way for me to form a coherent answer. If I'm pulling anything out of context, just yell at me. In a most friendly way, of course. :wink:I think some of you are also being a bit naive as well. You say that the "real twinks" were only a minority, but what exactly is a real twink? I gladly twinked my toon out: I got the best enchants, the best gear and I learned how to play my class. "Real" twinks - I prefer it with quotation marks, since it's actually a matter of not finding the correct term - I would like to define as people that just enjoy getting the best out of their character at a fairly low level, and not do it just to gank and harass "normal" characters in a BG. Which is exactly the part I have always understood about twinking, and which is the reason I always kept a double feeling about twinks. I hated them in BG's myself, but I didn't want Blizzard to completely destroy the concept either, since I understood the joys of making one.When I was in battlegrounds, I certainly attempted to fight other twinks whenever possible (I remember some epic battles where I would win a 1v1 fight with another twink with like 3 health left), but you better believe that if a level 20 noobie with 300 health is trying to cap a flag, I will gladly one shot him and return the flag, because thats the freakin point of the game! Likewise, if a level 20 toon is attacking a teammate, I will retaliate.

I think, by "real twink" you mean someone whose intent is to go into a battleground and win the match, rather than grief and harass other players, but unless you are a mind-reader, you have no clue what someone's intent is. Simply attacking a lower level player or less geared player is not even remotely enough evidence to prove intent, even if there are multiple instances of it (pvp in a battleground, who would have thought??).I definately understand your point, but that is why I wanted a solution where twinks would get their own playground, rather than being destroyed altogether. You are right, the objective is winning the game, one cannot expect from you to leave players alone who can be killed in one or two hits, especially when they are carrying the flag (I hope you use the term "noobie" in a nice way, though... :rolleyes:).

But that is just more reason for me to want twinks to have their own BG's. Twinking is a fun challenge, I acknowledge that. I want to do it myself if I don't have to kill off newbies in green or even white gear, making them hate BG's and twinks as much as I hate them now.

That said, your assumption of what I meant with "real" twink is entirely correct.Finally, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that some of you would try to point out the lack of twink battlegrounds today as proof that most twinks just wanted to one shot lowbies.Proof is a strong word. It's just that by my experience twinks are a lot less present nowadays than before, just when there is the perfect opportunity for twinks to test their skills versus other twinks. I am just drawing my conclusion, that's all. Is what Aerath says, them quitting over WSG changes, the correct reason? Or is it more a matter of "we can't really twink anymore, since we'll get experience that way, so it's over now". Completely disregarding the fact that exp in BG's is definately not the end, when they can play in their own battleground, against other twinks that is. I can't help thinking that for a lot of (ex) twinks, it is the latter. What part of "there are not enough twinks in this game- real or otherwise- to maintain twink-only battlegrounds" do you not understand?Oh, I understand very well, but do I have to consider everything you say as the absolute truth? I ran into thousands of twinks in my extensive BG-ing in the lower brackets. Entire twink guilds on several servers. You can of course be correct (might also vary from battlegroup to battlegroup and/or faction to faction), but I am just not sure if I believe that. But again, proof is a strong word, that's also why I said that I have a feeling, not that I know.

Bah, I'm just a bit disappointed that, what I saw as the absolutely perfect solution when I read the 3.2 patch notes, turns out to be quite less effective than I expected. I think I was just looking forward to making a twink myself. A "real" twink, that is. :wink:

[Aerath]

It could've been the solution had Blizzard cared. Might've been as easy as a single free transfer to one battlegroup if they so wanted, or merging of XP-capped BGs.

Neither happened.

I'd like you to read this thread - note it's v11. 9 out of the previous 10 capped out on responses, and that's just one BG group, one bracket:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=9941937134&sid=1

[semiiramiis]

I think some of you are also being a bit naive as well. You say that the "real twinks" were only a minority, but what exactly is a real twink? I gladly twinked my toon out: I got the best enchants, the best gear and I learned how to play my class.

When I was in battlegrounds, I certainly attempted to fight other twinks whenever possible (I remember some epic battles where I would win a 1v1 fight with another twink with like 3 health left), but you better believe that if a level 20 noobie with 300 health is trying to cap a flag, I will gladly one shot him and return the flag, because thats the freakin point of the game! Likewise, if a level 20 toon is attacking a teammate, I will retaliate.

I think, by "real twink" you mean someone whose intent is to go into a battleground and win the match, rather than grief and harass other players, but unless you are a mind-reader, you have no clue what someone's intent is. Simply attacking a lower level player or less geared player is not even remotely enough evidence to prove intent, even if there are multiple instances of it (pvp in a battleground, who would have thought??).

Finally, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that some of you would try to point out the lack of twink battlegrounds today as proof that most twinks just wanted to one shot lowbies. What part of "there are not enough twinks in this game- real or otherwise- to maintain twink-only battlegrounds" do you not understand?

Am I going to quit the game over this? Hell no. I can still destroy level 80s in blue gear with my epiced out main toons in the level 80 battlegrounds if I really want to (funny how nobody seems to mind this though), plus I have more than enough raiding to keep me busy. But its something I will keep in the back of my mind once I find something else to spend money and my free time on.


To me, when I use the term "real twink" I am refering to a twink who honestly does it for the challenge of facing down another -9 leveled toon played by an experienced player, who has the financial and gathering backing of an end game toon. A player who wants the purity of the lower level pvp experience, against others who have honed this to its ultimate. A player who will not lower himself to even really look at a level 13 poor sod in whites and grays, who's only in the bg to see what's up, because there's no challenge and joy in taking them on. Someone who's looking for others just like they are.

[Tort]

To me, when I use the term "real twink" I am refering to a twink who honestly does it for the challenge of facing down another -9 leveled toon played by an experienced player, who has the financial and gathering backing of an end game toon. A player who wants the purity of the lower level pvp experience, against others who have honed this to its ultimate. A player who will not lower himself to even really look at a level 13 poor sod in whites and grays, who's only in the bg to see what's up, because there's no challenge and joy in taking them on. Someone who's looking for others just like they are.

And thats all fine, that fits my own definition of a twink perfectly. But do you honestly expect a "real" twink to just sit there and let a level 13 poor sod in white and grays cap a flag or kill a teammate? If a level 13 enemy is attacking a level 13 on my own team, would you really expect me to just sit there and let my teammate die? What kind of player would I be if I was that completely useless?

Twinking, like many things in this game, isn't always as cut and dry as people make it out to be.

[Bancduese]

semiiramiis certainly gave a good definition of what a "real twink" is or at least what they could be; and while I am positive they exist, I simply don't believe they existed in the numbers that equaled the number of twinks in the BGs prior to the change.

Actually the concept of twinking to face another like minded foe is a good one. A concept I approve of completely, not that my approval is of any importance of course. What I didn't like and what many others didn't like was having to run into the twink with a more normally geared toon for even given like levels, the outcome was generally a fore-gone conclusion. Yes, I know all the claims about owning twinks with normal toons, I just don't believe them to be an accurate portrait of what occurred most often.

When the change came, it left the many twinks who didn't fit the definition with little choice but to level out of the chosen slaughter-ground and for those who did fit the definition a chance to transfer into a battle group so sufficient numbers to play are around. Blizzard should probably have facilitated this process by declaring a certain battle group to be the twink destination and to offered free transfers to characters who were willing to forgo experience gains for at least 90 days after the transfer was complete.

It may well be with the passage of time, that twinking will see a resurgence if the real twinks make a go of it on that chosen battle group. For the sake of those who like such, I do hope that is the case.

[snowieken]

I think that's the conclusion of this thread. The people with experience turned off, should be merged in their own battlegroup as well.

[Mazhulsage]

Absolutely, Blizzard should merge all XP Capped BG's into one (Or at least something like half and half, possibly 4 if there truely ARE that many twinks, which I doubt) but will they do it? Unlikely.

I'm sorry, but I truely do believe that MOST twinks were just aiming to 1-shot the lower level guys for some self satisfaction.

[semiiramiis]

And thats all fine, that fits my own definition of a twink perfectly. But do you honestly expect a "real" twink to just sit there and let a level 13 poor sod in white and grays cap a flag or kill a teammate? If a level 13 enemy is attacking a level 13 on my own team, would you really expect me to just sit there and let my teammate die? What kind of player would I be if I was that completely useless?

Twinking, like many things in this game, isn't always as cut and dry as people make it out to be.

1. Of course someone who has picked up a flag is fair game. Kill them once. Go on with your game.
2. If your level 13 battleground companion is being eaten on a one on one fight with the described level 13 in whites and grays....then your companion needs a lot more help than you can give him.
What we're calling out on is the consistent farm-epeen-gankage of much less experienced, geared new players, thereby spoiling a new player's experience of the game.

[snowieken]

What mostly translates into graveyard camping by a bunch of twinks...

[Calculatored]

Just head over to Hillsbrad with your 19. Fighting 30s and 40s is a lot of fun.

[prion]

so if you turn off xp as soon as you ding, go gear up, and then turn it back on, how many matches do you get?

I mean technically you can still twink in the normal bg's it just doesn't last as long...

[Aerath]

I seem to recall it being around 16 matches to *win*. Losses obviously garner less xp.

Mind you, it depends a bit on the level/bracket and the battleground.

[snowieken]

so if you turn off xp as soon as you ding, go gear up, and then turn it back on, how many matches do you get?

I mean technically you can still twink in the normal bg's it just doesn't last as long...I don't want to twink in the normal BG's. :)

[Boggles]

The reason i built a twink character is to try to counteract the numerous hoard twinks that ruled the battlegrounds at the time and help my side win at least a few times. It wasnt to kick the **** out of non twinks, though of course i was guilty of this -the main reeason was to help my side win.

I strongly believe that was the motivation for most twinks on both sides, it was a bit of an arms race. I found myself sponsering other regualr bg characters on my realm with funds to buy enchants and gear. Eventually i got to know many of the hoard twink characters, what their tactics were etc and think of orginal and creative ways to outsmart them. Bgs were brilliant fun for a twink in those days. It is addictive to be the hero of on your side, its the feeling we all ****ing live for - its gone now though, like the jedi we are extinct