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This assumes several things. First it assumes that God exists. This is not a discussion on whether or not God exists. I just have a couple of questions.
"How do we know God is kind, loving, and just?"
Going off of the Bible it is hard to believe that he is. If a person had enough power to do most of the things that God did in the Bible, we would consider him a monster who should be put to death. However when God does them it is ok because God's actions are just. If the only reason we know that God is loving and just is because he told us that he is loving and just, why should we believe him?
It makes much more sense to follow God because he is all powerful and will punish you if you don't. In this case my question is,
"If god is all powerful, why does he care if people worship him?"
You would think that if he is an all powerfull force he wouldn't be bothered as to whether we worshiped him or not.
Again all this is assuming that what is in the Bible is true and that God does exist exactly as it says there.
I don't think it would be possible to give a remotely complete answer to these questions in a few parargraphs (okay maybe AoA can :lol: ), so I'm just going to make a comment or two.
Read C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain" This book directly tackles some of these very issues, and does an infinitely better job than I could ever do.
Also, one aspect to your questions is a little problematic. Assuming there is an omnipotent Creator of everything, the very concepts of good, bad, justice, love, etc. would all depend upon Him. So, good is whatever Hewants it to be.
Finally, the Judeo-Christian belief is that God did not need anyone to love or serve him. The belief is that God created humans in order to share his wealth of love with them, and gave them a choice in sharing their love with Him. There are many instances of God smiting rebellious humans in Scripture, but the same stories say that it was their decision to rebel from God.
Also, one aspect to your questions is a little problematic. Assuming there is an omnipotent Creator of everything, the very concepts of good, bad, justice, love, etc. would all depend upon Him. So, good is whatever Hewants it to be.
There are many instances of God smiting rebellious humans in Scripture, but the same stories say that it was their decision to rebel from God.
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If the very concepts of Good etc are whatever he wants it to be, then why are many of the actions he takes in the bible actions that would be considered unjust or evil if done today?
I realize that it was people's decision to rebel from God, but if God is all powerful then why does he care if people rebel? It was their choice to rebel but it was his choice to slaughter them.
Here we go again :p.. I was enjoying the relative tranquility of the off topics, but I suppose one more thread of substance can't hurt :uhhuh:. I'll offer some argumentation.
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Originally Posted by Bhs Crew
This assumes several things. First it assumes that God exists. This is not a discussion on whether or not God exists. I just have a couple of questions.
Ok, we'll start off by assuming the existance of God. What other attributes would you give this God?
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"If god is all powerful, why does he care if people worship him?"
You would think that if he is an all powerfull force he wouldn't be bothered as to whether we worshiped him or not.
You are correct, God need not be worshipped, as nothing can be added to the perfection of God. Yet, this is where the human dimension comes in. When we "worship" God, we place ourselves in a certain posture before God. Thus, we get into the habit of seeing ourselves as we are - creatures under God, and make that relational connection from our standpoint. God is in and through all things, yet we must have the proper disposition of recieving his presence.
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Again all this is assuming that what is in the Bible is true and that God does exist exactly as it says there.
We need not use the sacred scriptures as a reference in this - we can approach it by means of reason. Let's first discuss the mode of creation. If God is a perfect, eternally subsisting entity, why need there be any creation - as shown by our existence? If God is complete, how can there be incompleteness? This is impossible without the attribute of God being a "personal" God. Some say they believe in God (some studies show that over 90% of people believe in some kind of God), but God is a "force", somewhat akin to what we see in star wars. If this were so, there could be no creation, no "us", as since he is complete already, his completemness cannot spawn incompleteness. There must be an attribute of volition in God, to create something that is apart from himself. So, thus we have a "personal" God. What then of love? If creation of temporality is not enough to demonstrate the Love of God (as creation cannot be derived of hate), than we must see what he does with creation.
This brings us to counter arguments about the "cosmic sadist", as many believe that every tragedy is "God's fault". Ironically, these are the same people who ignore God when things go well, and/or hope he doesn't "interfere" when things go according to plan. God lowered himself to mere creation as he sent his own incarnation to merge with it (Jesus), and return it to himself. So, it's through his act of creation, and "redemption". Ironically, this merging with the human aspect could not have taken place without the fall, as before the fall of the proverbial Adam and Eve, we were separate creature, not yet grafted into the Godhead through Christ's incarnation. So, we give Jesus the praise for his entering this realm.
I think its funny that people get sent to hell to suffer all eternity, when in reality if god is omnipotent that means he would have had to create that person and that person is in fact part of him(because an omnipotent being is everything all at once). That means that a part of god did all those sins that person commited and then he sent a part of himself to hell.
Therefore are all powerfull and loving God is really just a masochist.
But then along the same line of thought, aren't the innate morals and ethics we have today of God's choosing? If God is allows us to realize what is "good" and what is "bad," and we think that the acts he performed in the Bible seem "bad," isn't God telling us that those acts were bad?
If the very concepts of Good etc are whatever he wants it to be,
Good and Evil are not fully known to humanity per se - as Jesus said "no-one us good but your Father in heaven". Concepts of Good and Evil change according to culture. The emphasis is to be on imbibing the Spirit of God, who will recreate the inner self according to the "ultimate good".
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then why are many of the actions he takes in the bible actions that would be considered unjust or evil if done today?
Humanity has the opportunity to mature with each passing age, and their understanding of the good with it. In regard to the old testament, it was the law of the land to live by the sword. Knowledge of God is limited by our own capacities. Hence, his dealings with the israelites included their culture. If we die by natural causes, or by the sword, we still die. What is most important is one's "spiritual health". As we've seen in Braveheart "every man dies, but not every man really lives". When Jehova ordered cannan to be "cleansed", it was symbolic of destroying the idols that prevented their focus on the true God. In short, God works in and through culture to affect the understanding of a people.
These days, we have discovered through time and experience better ways to live. Thus, God takes a different approach, as his coming was, explained in scripture, was "when the time was ripe".
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I realize that it was people's decision to rebel from God,
This needs some further qualification. Sometimes it's not our choice per se, but a natural disposition that's gleaned from our state of "original sin". But yes, one can rebel from God when in posession of the knowledge of God.
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but if God is all powerful then why does he care if people rebel? It was their choice to rebel but it was his choice to slaughter them.
People are already born into a state of innate rebellion. This is why Jesus came. In order to understand fully the justice of God, one must rise above the justice of the times, which can be mere humanistic machinations. Before we get into that, let's stick with the primordial issues on my last post.
I think its funny that people get sent to hell to suffer all eternity, when in reality if god is omnipotent that means he would have had to create that person and that person is in fact part of him(because an omnipotent being is everything all at once).
God cannot replicate himself. Any creation would have to be something other than God by its very nature.
But then along the same line of thought, aren't the innate morals and ethics we have today of God's choosing?
If God is allows us to realize what is "good" and what is "bad," and we think that the acts he performed in the Bible seem "bad," isn't God telling us that those acts were bad?
Again, "good and bad" are not innate concepts. They are human concepts. Even nietzsche figured this out. Rather, there is "in God", and "outside God", for lack of a better term.
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