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I think it has been debated here more than once (im sure ive done), but since lot of people still believe on it, and you often hear "X armor is crap for tanking, it has 2 less Def than Y armor, and although it has 200 more armor, armor means little couse of disminishing returns" etc.
I used to make the "going from 0 to 1% of DR gives you 1% more survival, while going from 98% to 99% doubles your survival" example, but i happened to find a much better, much clearer and much more mathematical aproach in a (shrug) druid forum.
Quote:
The more armor you have, the less Damage Reduction you will gain from each point of armor you add. Let's investigate this idea by taking a look at the Damage Reduction formula:
So with the same exact increase in armor, we can clearly see that the Damage Reduction gained is less and less and less for the more armor you have.
BUT! Let's not wrap this up just yet! Let's take this hypothetical situation:
Say you have 1000 hitpoints and you're fighting a mob that hits for 100 every second. Knowing how much armor gives a certain damage reduction, we can then figure out how much DPS the mob will actually be doing by simply subtracting 100 - DR%, since it's a simple 100 DPS. Then we can find out how long you will live by dividing 1000 health by the incoming DPS. Here are the results:
[table]
Armor DR % Incoming DPS Time to Live Seconds of Life Gained
0 0.00 % 100.00 DPS 10 sec
2750 33.33 % 66.67 DPS 15 sec +5 sec of life
5500 50.00 % 50.00 DPS 20 sec +5 sec of life
8250 60.00 % 40.00 DPS 25 sec +5 sec of life
11000 66.67 % 33.33 DPS 30 sec +5 sec of life
13750 71.43 % 28.57 DPS 35 sec +5 sec of life
16500 75.00 % 25.00 DPS 40 sec +5 sec of life
[/table]
Notice anything between the two charts? Even though the damage reduction % gained is less and less as we add 2750 armor, the time to live is increased by the same EXACT amount each time. And thus, while there certainly is diminishing returns on "Damage Reduction", there is absolutely no diminishing returns on armor itself :)
Ok first and foremost druid armor vs warrior armor arguments dont sync up. Apples and orenges here dude. After 8k armor it is ALWAYS better to focus on Def and mitigation for a tank. My tank has a 72% mitigation index (72% that the attack will miss, be parried, dodged, or blocked) blocks for over 220, and in def stance reduces all damage by 70%.
The same is not true of a druid. As druids dont have acess to block, or great access to high mitigation gear (other then dodge) you are forced to go the armor route. This is as intended as it is remarkably easy for a druid to break 10k armor, and just retarded for a warrior to make the gear sacrafices necisary to replicate the same feat.
Hands down past 8k armor for a warrior: mitigation > armor
Feral Druid: armor > mitigation (although stacking as much dodge, AP, and crit on your gear is preferable)
Will reply later, with a longer reply, but in short:
no.
Whatever def, dodge (druids have tons of this) or parry you have, 200 armor is as beneficial when you go from 6 to 6200 as it is when you go from 9000 to 9200.
Sure you dont should sacrifice 50 def to get 100 armor, but you should not sacrifice 200 armor to get 3 defense as well. Armor never lose its value.
Right, yet your looking at it from the perspecive of mathimatics alone. I however am looking at it from the perspective of someone geared fully both tier 1 tier 2 and all things in between.
As a tank, 8k armor is all you need, all else should be focused on mitigation. Ive had these arguments with many folks now, amazingly all of them are feral druids. You guys lack perspective.
Current wariror itemization doesnt make it viable to go past 8.5 k armor without making some HUGE sacrafices. Im not giving up my epic rings and trinkets to squese in another 1k armor... no way...
I firmly suggest you quit being such a fleabag, (pun intended) and take a moment to realize that Triqui has been an EXTREMELY valuable poster on these (warrior) forums for some time now.
The tone your getting is nothing short of arrogant, and I can tell you that if someone asked anyone who isn't a 40-watt whose opinion they would value more:
random jerkoffA in Tier2, who apparently thinks because he can follow basic orders and commit large quantities of time to his avatar that somehow, his opinion really is worth more than a bag of ice to an eskimo;
Or Valuable posterA, who has taken much of his time to dispel wrong information and further increase the working awareness of warriors everywhere.
There really is an *extremely* simple method to prove someone wrong when they post math proofs. Post your own math proofs. To quote a wise man "conjecture never paid the rent".
Right, yet your looking at it from the perspecive of mathimatics alone. I however am looking at it from the perspective of someone geared fully both tier 1 tier 2 and all things in between.
First, this is a computer game. Which means absolutely everything that happens in your screen is solved by a mathematical function in a computer algorithm. You might not believe in maths, but maths do not care, really... and everything your character does is still governed by maths.
Second Being in a sucessful raid guild does not make you right, sorry, i have met a ton of people with lots of epics who were horribly wrong. For example, ton of full wrath warriors who did spam Heroic strike more than Sunder (casting sunder just to keep the 5 debuff), when Sunder is better for threat, period. You might be right and i migth be wrong, but having more epics than me does not make you right, period. (just like if someone comes and have AQ gear he is not automatically right over you. ) You will need some better argument than that.
Quote:
Ive had these arguments with many folks now, amazingly all of them are feral druids. You guys lack perspective.
I dont have any druid of any level, and my main is a warrior. Yet i get convinced by facts. Maybe _you_ lack of perspective?
Quote:
Current wariror itemization doesnt make it viable to go past 8.5 k armor without making some HUGE sacrafices. Im not giving up my epic rings and trinkets to squese in another 1k armor... no way...
And exactly this is my point. Lot of warrior "believe" in that with as much faith as you do, yet they have nothing to back up it except his own faith. Im going to put you an easy example: which pauldrons are better for tanking? Might pauldron or draketalon pauldrons? 90% of the warriors will say Might without any doubt (and without any thought also) becouse they see the shiny "+5 Def" on it. Yet the Draketalon pauldrons are better in any boss other than shadow damage bosses becouse they pack 2% dodge and 100 more armor. WHATEVER armor you have, those 100 armor are equally valuable. If you do some kind of "sacrifice" to raise your armor from 7000 to 7100 and you find it acceptable, you should know you gain exactly the same when raising from 8500 to 8600. Of course if gaining that 100 armor means sacrificing a good bunch of Stamina, or Defense, it is not worth it.
But several times, i see warriors discussing about two items for tanking (ussually cloaks) and they say "look, this one has more stamina, but that one has more Defense". When i point "yes but first one has much more armor too" they usually answer (as you do), "yes , but past certain point, armor is not usefull becouse of disminishing return". THAT myth (the disminishing return myth) is the one we should try to disapear. Becouse it is not true. 200 armor are _exactly_ as good when you are 6000 armor than they are when you are 10000 armor.
In following up post i'll show why having damage mitigation does not change the armor efficiency
Well frankly I dont care how you perceve my posts. I may come off as egotistical, mostly because I am. I dont need to list my resume of wow acomplishments, as its largly irrelivent and E-peen contests are as absurd as they are sad.
Bottom line I stand by the fact that warrior itemization penailizes the tank that emphasizes armor over mitigation. So regardless of the "math" involved, the reality is warriors dont value armor like a druid does.
It actually becomes detrimental at a certain point. The exception is consumables and buffs that allow you to exceed the limited armor ranges provided by gear and talents.
Lets use the same example than above, just with a tougher boss. This tougher boss do 200 dps instead. Our shiny warrior happen to have 20% dodge, 20% parry and 10% miss chance (through extra defense). This means 50% of the 200 dps the boss make, is fully mitigated through avoidance. That makes our boss do 100dps against that warrior. If we use the maths above shown, we will see that against those 100dps (after the reduction by avoidance) we will get exactly the results shown above. Which are: whatever armor you have, 2750 armor give you exactly the same time of survival even when counting up avoidance. I havent factored in criticals, but
a) warriors ussually dont get critted
b) critical avoidance is just the same than avoidance: mitigate 100% normal dmg (from 200% to 100%)
Not only that, but armor has a extra use over regular mitigation: it allways works. We can see a (oversimplificated) example with 2 players. both have 1000 life. One has 75% damage reduction from armor, and no dodge. The other has 75% dodge, and no armor. When they fight a boss that hit for 1000 damage, first warrior will never die, as far as he has a healer with mana who can heal him for 250. Second player will not get any damage when dodge, but will get killed in 1 shot when he does not. That is why rogues with huge dodge ratio (much more than a warrior might ever get) cant tank.
I havent counted in block either, but it really do not change how armor works Sure it is better to block than not to block, but the damage mitigated from your armor remains the same. And this lead to another little unknown fact about warriors (a common mistake Fleabag also made when he show us his shiny 72% avoidance including block)
THERE IS A HARD CAP IN AVOIDANCE AT 60%. No matter how much dodge, parry and block you have, you _cant_ have more than 60% avoidance (And this include misses). This is to make impossible to get to 100% avoidance and thus becoming impossible to be killed. (just like there is a DR cap or a Resistance cap) Any point above that 60% is wasted. Further more, every point above 60% is substracted proportionally from Dodge, parry, and block. As block is, obviously, much much less powerful than dodge or parry, this means that if you have more than 60% avoidance (including misses) and you increase your block, you gimp yourself. Lets say Fleabag have 10% miss, 15% parry, 15% dodge, 20% block. That is 60% avoidance, so no problem right now. Now he get a enchant that adds 2% block. He gets to 62% avoidance, but since there is a cap, he loses that 2%. _but_ he lose it from dodge, parry and block proportionally. So he loses 0.66% dodge, 0.66% parry and 0.66% block, and his final numbers will be 10% miss, 14.33% parry, 14.33% dodge and 21.33% block. As we can see, he has lost avoidance with that block enchantment...
This has, however, an exception: If you are using Shield Block, then this is override: shield block do not have an avoidance cap. But again , if you are using shield block, your awesome regular block rate is useless, as you will block anyways....
So fleabag, i would suggest you to reduce your block rate a bit, becouse it is gimping you, and get a bit more armor instead.
EDIT: This are the equivalences in defensive skills (usefull to know what to get in a gear slot)
1 AGI = 12.5 Armor
1% Dodge = 250 Armor
1 +Def = 33.3 Armor
And in other forum i once read that the "optimal" ratio between stamina and armor (speaking about phiscal damage only) is 1stamina=22 armor.
Ok the hard cap on mitigatioin is something Ive been trying to get information on for some while now. Ive heard it speculated that it is the case yet have not seen anything in blue to indicate its the case.
Do you have any sources to prove this? Not that I dont beleve you, its just after some months of searching Ive not seen anything concrete. Furthermore as a fury tank, I know that my measly regen from bloodthirst tends to outpace anything a non raid elite can dish out. Most other wariors I know cant tank 2+ 60 elites at a time with minimal (if any) health loss.
If the hard cap is in fact 60% then yes in fact you have a very valid argument in regards to the benifits of static armor mitigation. In a recent respec I droped toughness, as I saw the benifits as being purly a flat 2% or so damage reduction. But the result has been dramatic, and I seemingly take alot more damage then I used too.. especially in PvP.
So dont get the tone of my posts as combative, its just that I am going under the impresison that mitigation is not capped, and that armor mongering is more benificial to druids then tanks (past a certain point.) As you will often see druids braging about thier 16k+ armor moments before broodlord comes over and 1 shots them...
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